Network Switches

@almarg , absolutely. I got PWM mixed up with PCM. Thank goodness, otherwise we would have needed coax to make this work. 1.76 MHz is still up there, especially when a fourier series is considered to accurately shape the square wave so the decoder can due it's job,  

I received the  "Silent Angel" Bonn N8  Ethernet Network Switch yesterday and plan to hook it up today.
My question is whether to connect it close to my router or close to my server?  The router and server are connected by a 35-foot Ethernet cable.
If close to the router I can use my HD Plex LPS that is powering my router to also power the switch, but if close to the server then I would have a very short cable from the switch to the server and would probably use the Bonn N8 PS to power the switch.  If close to the server, I can plug the Bonn's PS into my Isoclean 60A3 II power filter.  Otherwise, if the switch is close to the server, I can use the router's own power supply to power the router, and move the Plex LPS close to my server, plug it into the Isoclean 60A3 II, and use it to power the switch.  Any clear direction or do I need to do some trial and error?  Which option do you guys presume would be best? Thanks

@mitch2   Based on my understanding of your post and questions....I would place the N8 Switch close to your Server. Run the long cable from your Router to the N8 Switch. I believe this will give you the best performance. As always, you will need to work through the options to find out for yourself and your system.

Looking forward to learning about how it works out!

Re. the Power Supply applications....always best to optimize on the audio side first. In your situation, if I understand your post correctly, I would use the HDPlex with your server over the Router. If you were to get an additional LPS, then use it with the Router as the next step.

@david_ten 
Thanks for the help. I will try the switch close to the server.  To be clear on the PS issue, the HD Plex LPS was a spare I had around so I connected it to power my router rather than the wall wort that came with the router.
My server has a great internal PS so the choice is whether to use the Plex on the router (as it is now) or on the switch instead of the PS that comes with the N8.  However, if I were to put the switch close to the router, instead of close to the server, then I could use the HD Plex LPS to power both the router and the switch.  I will first try the switch close to the server using the PS that comes with the switch but plugged into my IsoClean 60A filter.  Maybe later I will try moving the LPS from the router to the switch.
Thanks again for the help.

Ok, so I optimized the Bonn N8 switch by positioning it very close to my Antipodes DX3 server, using the short Ethernet cable that came with the N8 to connect with the server, using my HD Plex LPS to power the N8, and plugging the LPS into my IsoClean A60 power filter.  Since I moved the LPS to power the N8 switch, I am back to using the stock PS to power the Orbi router.
There seems to be a sonic improvement but certainly not night and day.  I would say smoother and maybe a bit more tonal depth.

Hello everyone

I got my Uptone audio Etherregen on Friday and put it into the system late in the evening.

As someone else already said, this is a major system upgrade, I thought my system sounded good before but its so much better with the Etherregen in the chain, stunning performance. Like a major system upgrade. The music just sounds so natural and there are significant details that I can hear on tracks I’m very familiar with. My wife even said she never heard it sound so good. She described the sound as crisper (which is a good one word description). Textures on percussion WOW! bass so solid, top end shizzle and everything in between syrupy Mmmmm.

my system is only digital streaming spotify premium but the sound is now jaw droppingly good. The switch is about 6 % of my total system cost but its delivering about 10% better sound. If you have a DAC that takes ethernet and are serious about digital sound quality then an Etherregen or better switch is an absolute must.


My system is router> cat 6> powerline > cat6 > industrial cat5e transformer > Chord C stream ethernet > Etherregen > Chord C stream ethernet > Lyngdorf TDAI3400 > Elsdon Wonfor LS 25 > Proac tablette 10 sig  and AQ greyhound > REL Stentor III subwoofer (70Hz crossover). All music is super MP3 via Spotify. Total system cost me about £10500 (about £18000 of component parts new ) . I run an Isotek sigmas gen 2 power conditioner and about £2500 spent on tweaks and vibration controls (money well spent).

Everything matters in digital audio reproduction, I was sceptical but open minded with much of it but Ive tried stuff and listened. Its not just about the 1s and zeros. Its all joined together in a system and its about noise (electrical for the most part in the case of ethernet switches, but I also have vibrational isolation on the switch and its power supply).

If you want to get noticeable switch SQ improvements but have a low budget then try second hand Cisco 2960 series managed switches (this is what Ive just stepped up from). Cost me £40 on ebay.

I suspect (like many things audio) the relative benefit of things like switches may be dependent on the downstream connections and processing.  

@discopants   I'm surprised that your system is only Spotify premium at 320kbps.  Don't you feel you're leaving a ton of meat on the bone by not upgrading to a hi-res service?  Compared to the money you've put into the switch, gear, power conditioners etc....surely you will hear the biggest sonic sea change moving up to at least CD-quality streaming.

I agree with @three_easy_payments. Subscribing to Tidal HiFi or Qobuz will provide audible benefits vs. Spotify, even if just red book quality. They often do free extended trials for you to try. Currently in US, Qobuz is running a promo $149 annual subscription with one month free trial. Since you already paid $640 for a switch, do the math, the Qobuz sub is no hardship. And not putting down EtherRegen here, as I own one from first batch

Can we allow a fellow time to enjoy the gains he's achieved?  : )

Happy for you, @discopants  

The switch should always be as close has possible to the servers, the server should also be fed through a great LPS as well has the router and anything in the chain should be fed through an lps. for long runs of cable use fiber optic and run the FMC off a LPS.

Another suggestion is to have all switches,lps, fmc's on a good shelf isolated and even dampening plates on top. Also replace those cheap dc cables that come with them with high quality aftermarket dc cables another big jump in sq.

Can anybody comment on this rather damning review?
Not quarrelling with anybody but it seems very at odds with posted results.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.102...

@uberwaltz,

I don’t see any technical flaws in what was said in the review you linked to. But of course the measurements and listening tests the reviewer performed involved one specific DAC, which for example is a very different animal than the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 used by @discopants with the same switch.

Also, I see that the DAC (which btw is incorrectly referred to in several places in the review as the "Matrix i"; it was correctly referred to in one place near the end of the review as the "Element i") does not provide gigabit Ethernet capability. I’m not sure how many audio components having Ethernet connectivity are capable of operating at gigabit speeds (as opposed to 10/100), but I suppose that any such components might tend to be more susceptible to coupling of very high frequency noise (at hundreds of MHz or more) associated with the risetimes and falltimes of the Ethernet signal, that I referred to a few posts back.

As @atdavid aptly said a few posts back:

The question is, how good were the circuit designers at either end in ensuring noise didn’t get onto or coupled from the Ethernet "signal"?

Best regards,
-- Al

I agree with Al....I did not find any technical flaws with the review either. Based on the measurements alone, the reviewer makes a very compelling argument about the noise and jitter present or its non-existence in a Ethernet signal.

I try not to ‘condemn’ a component unless I had a first hand experience with it. Those of you found etherREGEN worth some degree of improvement in your setup, continue to enjoy! 

One cannot measure the difference between Duelund 2.0 uf tinned copper foil CAST capacitors vs a $5 Solen 2 uf cap at the output of the same dac. However, they will sound radically different. One cannot measure the difference of many component upgrades, but they impact the sound greatly. Great sound and measurements can and often have nothing to do with other in many situations. What measures well on that site often sounds rather Hifi like or electronic. Units like the Topping Dac he loves so much is one example. Ever listen to it? Sounds artificial. I’m am sorry, but that site makes me laugh out loud because it is often irrelevant to those looking for great sound. 

If you read through the comments you will see that he tested the etherregen switch with a schiit modi  dac as well, it showed no difference either. 

As they say.... if it sounds good and it measures bad, you are measuring the wrong thing...

So the sonic benefits can only be recognized in areas that no one yet knows how to measure?  Then what's the basis behind the design of such a product?  I now have zero desire to even try this out.  There are many other areas of sound reproduction I'd rather direct my energy and resources towards.  Just one guy's opinion.  

Measurements play an important role as does good building techniques, layout, design, parts quality and synergistic pairing of parts.  However, listening and fine tuning based on actual sound is also very important.  It all matters. That’s why I have to laugh at that one note song site.  

The man who did the measuring also did a listening test, said he found it didn't  sound any different than his regular switch, said it might be worth $100 but not $680. 

He never hears a difference and is predisposed to find such an outcome. He is not, and does not care to be, a careful listener passionate about sonic nuance. Realism, natural tonality and the like elude his sensibilities and gifting.   He is a tech guy not connected to these other realities.  Just understand that when reading his comments. 

I have to admit from the odd times I have perused that audioscience site they do appear to be overly obsessed with measurements with the conclusion being if they could not measure a difference then there simply cannot be a difference.

Which I think the vast majority here know to be untrue.

I was interested to see other members reactions to that review in particular though and if it had a any influence on your purchase or not of the Upton Audio product?

He never hears a difference and is predisposed to find such an outcome. He is not, and does not care to be, a careful listener passionate about sonic nuance. Realism, natural tonality and the like elude his sensibilities and gifting.   He is a tech guy not connected to these other realities.  Just understand that when reading his comments

A nice example of expectation bias hiding behind an agenda. It's like claiming a moral high ground from which to preach down to.

All the best,
Nonoise

uberwaltz

I was interested to see other members reactions to that review in particular though and if it had a any influence on your purchase or not of the Upton Audio product?

None whatsoever. For all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced

For all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced

Not really sure what that is supposed to mean or what you maybe implying?

uberwaltz8,731 posts12-17-2019 5:01pm

For all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced

Not really sure what that is supposed to mean or what you maybe implying?

There is a long EtherRegen thread running at that site for months. Way before its release. If you had read that thread you would know 100% what the inevitable review was going to say.

So this is where the conversation apparently ends - it's impossible to measure the benefits, so either you believe benefits exist and criticize someone who measures no change as a non-careful listener or you believe they make no difference due to lack of measurement proof.  How unsatisfying. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys the product and perceives a benefit but this just isn't a product for me to look into further, at least not at this time.  

three_easy_payments719 posts12-17-2019 5:29pm.. this just isn't a product for me to look into further, at least not at this time.  

And that's of course perfectly fine

@three....This is not that confusing is it? Some things cannot be measured to determine if you will like it or prefer it to another piece of gear.  You just have to listen. Some things can be measured.  We are saying read, measure and listen to decide for yourself. Only you can make this decision. Only using measurements is a ditch. Trusting another’s ears only is a ditch. Avoid ditches and have fun looking! 

There is a long EtherRegen thread running at that site for months. Way before its release. If you had read that thread you would know 100% what the

inevitable review was going to say.

This, at least 90% of the regular member contributors to that thread had already declared the switch phoney before anyone had even heard a single note!

They preach about expectation bias delivering psycho acoustic placebo effects but ignore that Amir has emotionally and professionally placed his cards and reputation  well and truley on the table before he even received the switch.

It's the same in tweak threads , many experts cannot think or even bear to think outside the box. 

 

So, in the spirit of trying new things, in a couple of days I will have the same optical isolation set-up that Michael Lavorgna discussed in his article titled, "Electrically Isolate Your Networked Audio"
A little more expensive than at the time of the article but still relatively cheap in the audio world.
Have any of you tried this......
https://www.audiostream.com/content/electrically-isolate-your-networked-audio

Ok, I gave this stuff a try so here is my digital set-up running Tidal and stored files (I plan to give Qobuz a try in January after I receive my new amps).  Adding the switch and the optical 
isolation seems to have resulted in a slightly smoother, quieter presentation - a bit more pleasant to listen to over longer periods of time. 

Current digital set-up;
Orbi router  
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (35 feet) 
>TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter
>Tripp Lite Duplex Multimode 62.5/125 Fiber Patch Cable (SC/SC), 1M
>TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)  
>Silent Angel - Bonn N8 Audio Grade Network Switch
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)
>Antipodes DX3 Server
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)
>Metrum Ambre Roon endpoint
>I2S cable
>Metrum Adagio DAC

@mitch2   Thanks for the updates on your adventures and congratulations on the results.

If you are open to this, I encourage you to try different LAN cables...the last three, 3ft links in your chain.

Depending on the cables used, you may be surprised by the uptick in performance. 

Audio Bacon has a list of LAN cables and their characteristics and contributions.

I second the recommendation on Ethernet cables between these two components, 

>Silent Angel - Bonn N8 Audio Grade Network Switch
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet) ⬅️
>Antipodes DX3 Server
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet) ⬅️
>Metrum Ambre Roon endpoint

I 3rd it! Thanks for the update.  The Cat 7 Ethernet cables I purchased from SOtM really upgraded the sound of my system.  They do matter! 

Thanks for the advice but looking at the Ethernet cable offerings reminds me of the early days of USB cables.  Some reviewers report "significant improvements" while others say the differences are small.  HiFi Wigwam states that simply switching to generic CAT 8 cables would be an audible improvement.  Then, as with all things audio, there seems to be a progression of sorts where certain cables start out as a great "bang for the buck" but are soon eclipsed by newer offerings, such as the $50 Supra CAT 8 cable that Audio Bacon liked early on but later replaced with the latest cable du jour, the $500 SOtM dCBL-CAT7 Audiophile Ethernet Cable, which apparently can be bettered by JCAT’s $1,100 Ethernet Cable.  The Supra is priced right but from what I could find while it apparently sounds "nice," improves on off-the-shelf cables (OTSC), and has good tonal qualities, in comparison to others it may be a bit soft and less focused.

I am considering moving the two TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converters and Fiber Patch Cable to the server side of (i.e., after) the Bonn switch to hopefully reduce any noise coming from the switch.  Michael Lavorgna at AudioStream didn't set his up that way because he needed to run multiple cables from his switch.  If I move the fiber set-up, then I would only have one Ethernet cable between the second TP-LINK converter and my server, although I would have another between the server and my Roon endpoint (...ugh, where does it stop?).  If I were inclined to spend $500 on an Ethernet cable, I would probably put it last in the chain, either from the second TP-LINK to my DX server or between the server and Roon endpoint, but I am certainly not going to purchase 3 or 4, $500 Ethernet cables!

I found this (linked below) review interesting in that they compared several Ethernet cables (but not the SOtM) in a blind testing and came away with this; 

At the end we settled on a random A-B-X blind test methodology and submit all the cables that we had to extensive comparison.

Not knowing which cable we were auditioning (the test pattern looked like A-B-A-A-A-B, for example), step by step some nuances in how the cables performed started to appear. When I say nuances I mean perhaps 1%, perhaps 5% of difference between the Ethernet cables that we used. Nothing to really write home about. Most cables performed about the same, there were only two that stood out. The Supra was audibly softer and more muffled than others, keeping similar signature that was heard in the HS-Link application. The OTSC became the winner of the test – it was the preferred cable even in the direct shootout with the AudioQuest, no matter how technically inferior it may be.

Conclusion

Although it may not be exactly what you want to hear, for the router/streamer connection please feel free to use any RJ-45 cable that is on hand. If you want to feel unique then invest a bit more into a product like Viablue, or dress a standard patch cable in a colourful jacket or shrinkwrap of your choice. What is puzzling is that in theory there should be zero difference between the cables and still there was some.

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/special-edition-reviews/104-ethernet-rj-45-cables-shootout

If I were inclined to spend $500 on an Ethernet cable, I would probably put it last in the chain, either from the second TP-LINK to my DX server or between the server and Roon endpoint, but I am certainly not going to purchase 3 or 4, $500 Ethernet cables!

If I would want to experiment with just one Ethernet cable, I would start with a (hopefully) short run to your Roon Endpoint

Fidelizer EtherStream Switch review by Srajan Ebaen // 6Moons:

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/fidelizer/

Thank you all for a very interesting thread.  I'm working with a 1Gb wired network that connects:   > Commercial server running Win10 hosting 5Tb of shared media files
    available to all the devices on the network
  > 1080 TV and media player A fed by network
  > 1080 TV and media player B fed by network
  > 4k TV home theater setup with media player etc fed by network
  > a small system running a BlueSound Node 2i fed by network
  > a large system with DAC fed by another Node 2i (fed from network)                             and s/pdif directly from the server sound card (not ethernet, no USB)
No WiFi, no BlueTooth.  All this entails a couple switches (commercial Cisco unit, can't recall what exactly, and another switch on the HT).

Recently I've been playing with hard-to-verfy and possibly faith-based tweaks that may have some impact but aren't very expensive - speaker elevators, fancier (but not crazy expensive) power cords, replacing digital RCA connectors with BNC's, etc.  All this has convinced me to ignore the network switches.  Now on to the next tweak.....

was this mentioned:

10 GBE from QNAP
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c

I have been obsessed with this issue and have tried all kinds of network switches and streamers....I could write a book.  Here’s what I have been using with awesome results.

Central Panel on Dedicated Circuit:

• AT&T Fiber Modem
  
• Ubiquiti UDM
  
• Ubiquiti Switch 8-150w
  

Listening Room on Separate Dedicated Circuit:

• Ubiquiti Switch Flex Mini Powered by POE from Switch 8-150w
  
• Sonos Port with Factory Power Supply (Furman Power)
  
• Bluesound Node 2i with Factory Power Cord (Furman Power)
  
• Linn Klimax DSM with Factory Power Core (Furman Power)
  
• Apple Mac Mini (2020) with Factory Power Core (Furman Power)

Interconnects & Cables:

• iFi SPDIF iPurifier with the iFi Power Supply (Furman Power)
  
• Lifatec Glass Optical Toslink
  
• Custom Cardas Analog & Digital Interconnects (WBT Connectors)
• Custom Cardas Speaker Cables (WBT Connectors)
• Custom Power Cables (WBT Connectors)
  
• Custom CAT6 Ethernet Cables (Platinum Connectors)

Amplifiers & Speakers:

• Luxman NeoClassico II CD-N150/SQ-N150 with Klipsch Forte III
  
• Nagra Classic INT/DAC with Franco Serblin Accordo
  
• 47 Labs Shigaraki DAC/AMP with Lens
  
• Mytek Brooklyn DAC+/AMP with Harbeth P3ESR
  

My favorite combination:
Sonos Port (WiFi) - iFi SPDIF iPurifier - Custom Digital Interconnect & Power - Nagra Classic DAC/INT - Harbeth P3ESR

I also got great sound from the Mac Mini (Apple Music/ALAC) using USB.  The Franco Serblin Accordo speakers also sounded wonderful, depending on my mood.  They are just different speakers.

What has really surprised me is how good the Sonos Port sounds with the iFi SPDIF iPuifier.  I was not expecting the Sonos and iFi to sound so good.  I prefer it over my Linn DSM and the Bluesound Node 2i.  I know that I’m limited to 16/44, but that’s what my CDs and Apple Lossless files are, so I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.

I’m aware this goes against a lot of “audiophile” thinking and that using a Sonos Port with Nagra/Harbeth might sound silly, but after MONTHS of listening, this is what I came to.  I also tried (and have though the years) lots of different cables, but I just make my own with excellent results.

Please note that I use the Sonos Port in WiFi mode, which works flawlessly.  Does WiFi sound better than wired Ethernet?  No.  Again, after MONTHS of listening, I can’t tell a difference.  I tried most of the “audiophile” switches listed in this thread, and some of them (maybe) had a subtle improvement, but the iFi always sounded the best no matter what switch I used, and it really made the Sonos Port shine.

What I learned is that power supplies and galvanic isolation make a difference. It’s not only about bits/data, but the power/current in the signal.  I think that’s what several people in this thread kept stating.  Power, especially in digital, makes a difference.  I don’t think we have to spend a lot of money on switches and cables, but making sure they are powered and terminated properly goes a long way.
Now....I’ll duck and dive to avoid the sticks and stones heading in my direction.  Be easy, I’m just a music listener that spends too much time playing with audio.

Thanks for reading!

Just came across this Network Switch. English Electric Ethernet Switch:

https://englishelectric.uk/

US$595 List.  Affiliate of Chord Cable.

The one thing that I have done to improve my 4 yr old (out of warranty )Aqvox switches and TP-Link FMC,s was open them up and install thin rubber on both top & bottom of the frames. This is what Aqvox does on there SE version to increase a blacker background and I also drilled holes in the bottom of the frames to attach 3 Alto_Extreame Lyd1 footers. The improvement I'm hearing I believe is a reduction in jitter.

I have the switch, fmc and W4S LPS sitting on a Symposium Segue shelf feeding my server & dac. 

Another improvement I read about is that the switch should be feeding both the server and dac, with port 8 feeding the dac, fmc into port 1, port 4 feeding server, port 2 source ground into grounding box. This gave me better sound then the dac being feed from the server direct and I believe because the Aqvox switch re-clocks the signal but that's just a guess. 

I have the exact same set up including the router on the sending end.

Hans Beekhuyzen explaining WiFi vs. network cabling and more...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9RSLHOFOTc

why

Here we go again. I just saw 50 to 60 posts from people who have not tried one of the switches in question.
This just confuses people who come here to find out results.

50 to about 5 who did post some results, even if they were offering a link to someone who did. Thank you to those 5 out of 50!

Just going to update my network switch experience from my "post industrial" units!

One of the issues I had with my industrial setup was just that, it was industrial and looked it, meant to be locked away in cabinets and mounted on DIN rail and all hardwired, looks like crap out in the open.

So I acquired a D-Link non managed switch powered by a 5v switch mode walwart, looked better but the sq was a little duller imho.
Moved to a Welbourne 5v LPS with aftermarket PC (cannot find a brand name on that?) and oh yes, MUCH better than even the industrial setup.
Running a short 0.75m cat 7 cable from switch to Metrum Onyx DAC and running Roon core upstairs on a seperate Dell laptop which is also connected to main router by a 0.75m cat 7 cable.
The downstairs D-Link switch is connected to main router by a 75ft cat 7 cable.
These are just generic ebay sourced cables, no fancy brands.

Now the setup looks the part( basically hidden behind my TV) and sounds excellent imho.
Well worth the approx $300 cost.