Network Switches

@david_uk_22   

I am talking post digitizing and " the negative affects of ALL potential sources of electrical-based noise, including routers, switches, transformers, and power supplies " before it gets to my house.

In my view (I know others disagree) there is nothing that can be going on in that BBC studio as a result of electrical-based noise that's going to pose a negative impact on the digital signal coming into your house.  The digital signal is just fine leaving BBC and just fine when it arrives to your home and even your DAC.  I'm simply saying whether it's a nearby TV, florescent light, network switch, router, or amplifier...everything near your audio system that is powered by electricity has the potential to cause noise.  Reducing these effects can be beneficial.

Again, I am not in the camp that any of this is related to the digital signal.  I had to move my router 10 feet away from my rack because initially it's close proximity to the rest of my gear was causing very loud "motorboating".  In this case the digital signal was of course not degraded bu there was incredible noise coming through my speakers due to the RF/EM noise.  This really shouldn't be confusing.

Geez.... some toxic comments here from "everything-sounds-the-same" crowd. Relax, it's just a hobby. Nobody is pointing a gun in your head forcing to buy a switch. Don't buy it. Why do you even read this thread?

Who are the "everything-sounds-the-same" crowd
three_easy_payments seems to be saying the opposite
and I have certainly not said itWho is your comment aimed at? and what do you perceive as 'toxic' Have I missed some posts??

I guess pointing out some of the obvious would be useful (for some):

• TV and Radio stations are high noise floor environments. You are not exploring the limits of human hearing, so you can almost take those out of the discussion.
• They do care about EMI ... hence why they use balanced cables.
• Recording studios, TV stations, radio stations .... are ADCs, not DACs. A recording studio is for the most part, a single point ADC, and ADCs used in recording studios are well designed, expensive units, and aspects of those designs is to eliminate susceptibility to EMI. All those digital cables ... are transmitting digital data and that data is not being converted back to analog except for monitoring and mixing ... again, rarely plumbing the depths of hearing and if so ... to hear if any EMI or similar entered recording that may be picked up on playback.
  

I'm simply saying whether it's a nearby TV, florescent light, network switch, router, or amplifier...everything near your audio system that is powered by electricity has the potential to cause noise. Reducing these effects can be beneficial

.
Ah I think I get it now.
You are saying that adding an extra piece of equipment, a switch or anything , is adding further potential to add noise to your audio system. Nothing  to do with the digital audio it is switching. yes, of course I can see how that could happen

Surely I can be forgiven for that confusion. After all, this thread is supposed to be about switches specifically for digital audio not just about which switch will interfere less with your audio system when installed in your system regardless of whether you are streaming digital audio or not

we may be on the same page

Hello atdavid

Thanks for your input

Some of what you say is correct but much is way out of date, or maybe we are just further ahead in the UK. (I believe the USA doesn’t even have DAB yet)

When you say that "Recording studios, TV stations, radio stations .... are ADCs, not DACs" I'm not sure you have grasped the terminology. ADC is Analogue to Digital Converter(or conversion), it can't be a studio or TV station, it is just one of the processes that take place in that studio or station

In the distribution of a single radio programme, for instance, it will go through a number of ADCs and DACs for technical reasons before it is even sent back from the cloud for final distribution

It will encounter more ADC/DAC before arriving on my network.

I'm not sure even how TV studios and radio stations crept into the discussion

No, I would just say you are a bit slower in the UK .....

Would you rather I said encoding of the baseband signal into digital and decoding of the baseband signal into audio instead of ADC and DAC? The baseband signal will be encoded once with an ADC in a studio these days.

After that it is all digital. It should have been pretty obvious from what I wrote that that is what I meant." In the distribution of a single radio programme, for instance, it will go through a number of ADCs and DACs for technical reasons before it is even sent back from the cloud for final distribution" ... I can assume you mean encoded digital data, not baseband encoding and decoding, which in the context of this whole discussion is, well, rather meaningless and pedantic without being useful as the parameters for noise rejection, data recovery, etc. are 1) completely different from baseband audio, and 2) not really even the point of most of this discussion.

Last, if you are going to be pedantic, you may want to figure out who your audience is.


Studios crept into the discussion because someone tried to use, erroneously, that "professionals", i.e. in radio and TV studios don’t care about this.

@david_uk_22   

Ah I think I get it now.
You are saying that adding an extra piece of equipment, a switch or anything , is adding further potential to add noise to your audio system. Nothing to do with the digital audio it is switching.

Yes, that is the perspective I'm engaging on here.  Therefore, as it applies to network switches I'm mainly interested in the noise reduction they are applying to the power supplies for example as a potential source of noise and unrelated to the digital signal.  I see many of the models that the OP provided at the beginning of thread did include measures to reduce EM/RF noise but for now I don't think those incremental gains justify the costs - at least not in my realm of budgets and a value proposition.

Hey atdavid !

Guglielmo Marconi called.

He wants his 'modern techniques in communications' handbook back

Ignore him David_UK_22

he joined a few weeks ago and has since spent his time trolling as many threads as he can
Some of us believe that he is a bored teenager, (his grammar is appalling) quoting random stuff from other idiots and insulting as many people as he can. Or he might be a cable or switch seller or 'reviewer' trying to protect their income from the gullible.

For some reason, David in UK sounds exactly like Stewart Pinkerton, self-proclaimed "slayer of snake oil" in all internet audio groups and Facebook. And the only "contribution" to audiogon forums since he joined yesterday, is this thread.

Leave Stewart Pinkerton out of this :-) :-)   While I don't agree with his methods and he is way too quick to jump (at times to conclusions) at everything he perceives as snake oil, he actually is a fairly experienced engineer and would have understood the arguments being made, and would have disagreed with those arguments, not gone off on a tangent that everyone agreed wasn't the issue 100 posts ago.

thyname342 posts11-06-2019 1:35pmFor some reason, David in UK sounds exactly like Stewart Pinkerton, self-proclaimed "slayer of snake oil" in all internet audio groups and Facebook. And the only "contribution" to audiogon forums since he joined yesterday, is this thread.

Warning!!!! to people who are against switches --- do not read this:

Facts from October launch at UpTone:

1) EtherRegen first batch of 250 units for delivery in November 15 was sold out in three minutes

2) Second batch of 250 unites with deliver date of December 15, was sold out within one hour from launch

3) Orders for the third batch with unspecified 2020 delivery are through the roof

Now please haters... don't slit your wrists :-) For help:

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

You are saying @atdavid that Pinkerton would approve of the switch? That would be shocking. It will wake all the zombies that follow him and Ethan Winer as disciples, and practically copy/paste all what they say in all audio forums.

Of course he would not approve of the switch!!!   :-)

But, after reading this thread and seeing that almost no one is denying there will be no degradation of the digital data, he would not argue that point. He would accept that analog noise injected via Ethernet could happen, then scream there is no way it is audible.

Here's some more tinder for less cash to debate about:
http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/introducing-etherstream-audiophile-network-switch-from-fidelizer-audio/

All the best,
Nonoise

Hi @nonoise  Yes, I saw that on Facebook group promoted by someone. Yes, it is not so expensive, but it is a modified Cisco SG110D-08 switch, not something built on purpose from the ground up like the EtherRegen

@nonoise,

Thanks for posting a link for the switch and steering back this thread on track 😉

@thyname - I am not at all surprised by the overwhelming response to EtherRegen. 

@atdavid I'm Keetakawee from Fidelizer. You know internet bring the worse things of mankind and I took my stance to fight those who try to ruin other people's hobby like them. However, I always treat my clients right and you will never see anyone being mistreated as a client.

This switch is what I developed for myself along with other possible products I decided to use it personally because it will lead to controversial if they get out to light. I bought a few audiophile switches before, trying some highend one along with other tweaks without success and EtherStream is too effective to keep in the dark. And they don't need to pay larger sum of money like $600-1500 USD.

I am back to this discussion and will tout the Sonare product again. See the post below about eliminating the noise that these switches are also trying to eliminate. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/heard-the-computer-audio-design-gc1/post?postid=1828637#1828637

It's "Sonore". Not Sonare.

Do you have any experience with them @yyzsantabarbara  ?

@atdavid Thank you for your advice. About my product, I don't ever recall talking about it publicly except sharing that I launched a new product on that day and that's all. Aside from that, I'm sharing my opinions as fellow audiophile. I know some smart companies are using proxies to promote their goods but it's not my style though.

I don't consider myself as a business owner in audiophile market. Maybe that'd be my weakness but I'm glad I still have clients who understand my nature and support me regardless. I'm trying to overcome this shortcoming and get over it soon.

Well, networked audio is a new territory to audiophiles and not many people are well informed about it. Imperfections are often hidden in the dark like 10G promoting end to end verification to improve transmission for the first time and no one said anything about this issue so far.

Regards,
Keetakawee

@thyname I’m a long-time Sonore customer and currently have their previous gen (non optologic) Sonore Signature Rendu SE player. I’m also a long-time customer of Small Green Computer for their servers. I’ve paired SGC with Sonore for a number of years now.

I had the opportunity to try Sonore’s (as they refer to it) "Signature Rendu SE - single enclosure opticalRendu and linear power supply" very early on but chose to hold off until SGC released a server with an SFP. SGC is out with their unit, but I’m holding off on making a final choice in a Server.

I also followed the very lengthy Computer Audiophile (now AS) thread on addressing network (and noise) isolation with the use of layered fiber solutions. I chose to hold off on doing so for a number of reasons, primary among them was the need to hear a fiber based system to determine if the resulting sound quality / performance met my needs and goals.

You didn’t have specific questions in your previous post. If you do, let us know and I’ll respond if I’m in a position to address them.

I have been watching this thread since its inception as the subject matter is of great interest to myself as a possible upgrade.
Then it got a little out of hand but now seems to be on an even keel again and with Davids blessing feel I need to post this.

But first a bit of background to set the scene;
My "trade" is installing and commissioning huge multi million dollar high speed production packaging lines all over the USA.
These comprise of many individual complex pieces which are now all connected and communicated to/from by industrial Ethernet. This entails many I/o drops, repeaters and switches.
Obviously these have to be of the highest quality and robustness as we cannot afford any part of the system crashing, stopping, performing none approved actions etc as millions of dollars are at stake!
Nearly all of our electronics are Siemens.

Ok, so I started to think what if?
Just so happens I had an eight port switch and its matching 24v LPS in my "office" so time to test it out.
Now this was a quick down and dirty install as the LPS is mean to be hardwired inside cabinets fed by 460/120v transformers in the field so no power cord as such, ended up butchering a stock power cord to make it work for today.

So this setup replaced my el cheapo (sub $10) 4 port 5v USB power switch that then feeds direct into my Ayre EX8 super integrated from my modem/router. All Siemens cat 7 cabling by the way, don’t ask the source.... lol.

Well first up I streamed some ripped CD,s from my NAS and what did I hear?
Well nothing tbh. And by that I mean the absolute blackest midnight inky silence between notes I have ever heard, period!
It is not subtle at all.
I must have had more bass bloom/boom that I thought as now bass notes are so well delineated that it is almost like a new instrument has been thrown into the mix!
The texture of acoustic guitar for example is startling in its intensity.
This is obviously something I should have looked at LONG ago!
But I was a bit of a doubter that something so simple could be so big.
Now this gear is not audiophile ( whatever the heck that means anyway!), but it is of the highest industrial standard and cost to the consumer would be about $900 for the switch and LPS.
Now I just have to make up something a little bit better and neater for power and best place to locate it etc.

This I only got round to this morning so low listening hours for sure but that will change rapidly I can assure you!

But I am now a believer!

Good you found out for yourself by actually doing it and testing. Now you have first hand experience! I have done the same as was also very impressed with the sonic results! Be sure and use great ethernet cables like the Cat 7 sold by SOTM. At least try it! A good low cost one is the Cat 8 from Supra.  

@david_ten  : thanks for your post on Sonore. I was replying to someone else. 

I am very familiar with the company. I currently own two opticalModules from them and SGC linear power supplies. Over the years, I have owned other products for them, including microRendu, ultraRendu, and SGC server (i5).

I have been using Sonare products since the first day the microRendu became available. After I used the Rendus' I became confident that, FOR ME, the Rendu isolated the computer processing from the audio signal. What I mean is that a busy CPU did not correlate with a degraded audio, FOR ME. Unlike a direct USB connection from the CPU to the DAC. I listen 8 hours a day M-F for years with the Rendu.  The Rendu's are awesome products. BTW - I said FOR ME.

I have not bought the Optical yet because I am waiting for any bugs to work themselves out. Only issue for me now is that the next DAC (demo of speakers upcoming) I get may already have an RJ45 Ethernet streaming built-in (noisy) so I may live with that until I get more funds.

It's Sonore. Not Sonare

@thyname Given your history with the Sonore products what is your opinion on the Sonore products and their place in this thread's discussion about Network Switches. My experience will have me continue to stay with the Rendu.

Oh they are great! As I said, I currently own a pair of opticalModules. In terms of streamers and servers, I was very happy with Sonore solutions, but I ended up getting an Innuos ZENith MK3 last January, that works well for me, and takes care of both streaming and "serving" (and CD ripping)

@grannyring  Are you stating that you have already tried the fiber optical connection to your audio system?

@uberwaltz Awesome.

To be fair, I found some network switch mods or audiophile built products making mediocre or subtle improvements over stock one too. I think it also depend on which network switch you try and with what device and application you play with.

If designer has good reference ears and can tell good quality from listening rather than just specsheet alone, he usually build something he can truly enjoy with his standards.

For those who never have any real experience before, they shouldn't assume too much. I'm also challenging network experts here in Thailand for testing switch in multimedia. Hopefully someone will join up.

Regards,
Keetakawee

@thyname  Got it. : ) 

@uberwaltz  Thanks much for posting actual hands on results.

@yyzsantabarbara. I have an SOTM Switch using SOTM Cat 7 DBL copper ethernet cabling. I also have an Innuos Server/Streamer and will most likely get two of the Sonore optical modules like @thyname.

@thyname. Please share how you set up (Wired) your two optical modules to your Innuos and the resulting sound quality improvement realized?

@grannyring  -- simple: Ethernet (copper) coming from router ----> first opticalModule (powered by one SGC 5v linear power supply) ---> fiber cable ----> second opticalModule (powered by a second SGC lps) ----> Ethernet Cable (copper) ----> Innuos ZENith MK3 ethernet input.

The opticalModules replaced a pair of tPLinks FMCs I used to have before.

Improvement is audible. Mostly in timbre and tonality. Everything sounded more natural, and more focused.

@thyname  Do you have a feel for / thoughts on the reasons the Sonore Optical Modules outperformed the 'standard' FMCs? Thanks.

No idea about the reasons why. I can tell you that when I put the TPLinks, the improvement was almost nonexistent. Totally different level with the opticalModules.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, I remembered this from Clones Audio.
https://www.clonesaudio.com/networking

FunJoe's switches have been out for quite a while and may be worth a look. He has two versions: one with 24 ports, a Femto clock and upgraded LPS and the other is an 8 port unit with (I think) just the Femto clock.

All the best,
Nonoise

@thyname  Thanks. Your findings are important to me. I've held off on adding fiber "links" within my system because I do not want to screw up aspects like timbre and tonality (both of which you report on positively) etc.

Thanks @david_ten  

To spice things up, I ordered the EtherRegen the day it launched. Lucky enough, able to make into the first batch. So it ships on November 15th. It will be interesting to compare it with the opticalModules. Replacing them entirely. We'll see ....

Yw David.
Of course now have to decide if I want to purchase them or look at other avenues.
i am sure I would get them at about 45% of retail but still a fair cost
Decisions!

Thyname.

The etherregen was on my hit list.
Please update once you have evaluated it.
Thx

Will do.

You probably know this, but if you were not fast enough to order EtherRegen within one hour from launch, and order it now, you won't get it until some time in 2020

Yes I did read that.
Which also says a lot about people’s expectations for this unit!
I can be patient... sometimes... lol