This EtherRegen device seems like it would be better than 2 Sonore opticalModules to go from Ethernet RJ45 -> OM -> Fiber Optical Ethernet -> OM -> Ethernet RJ45. Simpler seems better to me but I have not heard either.
The Sonore modules that output USB is what I have heard and own and they seem simpler in the audio data flow.
That EtherRegen does seem like something interesting if you have an RJ45 input in your DAC with a built-in Roon Ready Media Server in the DAC, such as a Lyngdorf 3400 integrated. If you used the Sonore USB based output products on this Integrated you would be wasting money by not using the built-in RJ45 streaming of the DAC.
@grannyring Don’t you have the Lyngdorf 3400? I am demoing this with an external amp (SimAudio 860 or Luxman m900u) and the new to USA Yamaha NS 5000 ASAP.
Great info, thanks. |
For the few people who have an endpoint with optical input (the excellent Sonore opticalRendu comes to mind), one can “turn around” the EtherREGEN and feed that DAC-connected endpoint from the optical cage, while connecting the lone ‘B’-side port to the network. Thus ‘B’ >’A’.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen
Do not understand that point above from EtherGEGEN. |
I can help you understand, although it’s self explanatory.
ultraRendu has optical input. So you need a fiber cable to feed it. So you ‘turn around” the EtherRegen.
That switch is more than galvanic isolation that fiber provides. EtherREGEN has two isolated data/power/clock domains. Each isolated domain is re-clocked using 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter (less than 0.8 picoseconds) differential flip-flops. So full isolation and reclocker
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That EtherRegen does seem like something interesting if you have an RJ45 input in your DAC with a built-in Roon Ready Media Server in the DAC, such as a Lyngdorf 3400 integrated. If you used the Sonore USB based output products on this Integrated you would be wasting money by not using the built-in RJ45 streaming of the DAC. Exactly why it is on my very interested list as my EX8 has just that input for streaming too. |
@uberwaltz : I used to have the Ayre QX-5 Twenty. So I can freely speak about it. The QX-5 Twenty had the Ethernet "bridge" built in. However, it sounded better (to me) when using the USB input with a good external streamer, than the built in Ethernet bridge. But that is just me. You can try it for yourself (assuming you have a good quality USB streamer / end point). |
Thyname
Right now I do not, once I bought the EX8 I sold off all the equipment that this unit replaced, DAC, Headphone amp etc.
However I have tried the USB input from my iPad mini2 using Amazon UltraHd tracks and I have to admit that it sounded pretty darn good to say the iPad is streaming over my wifi network.
So yes I am of an open mind as obviously the EX8 trying to be a swiss army knife cannot hope to compete with more costly item specific units.
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Yeah... I agree in your case there is no need to maintain other devices. The Ayre EX-8 would indeed take care of everything as one-box solution. Enjoy! |
Does anyone actually have and use an EtherREGEN yet or all they all on order still? I'm just very curious to read some reviews of actual users. |
First delivery is scheduled for November 15. Having said this, based on an AudiphileStyle post yesterday, Alex from UpTone shipped 35 units yesterday. So 35 people will likely get them tomorrow (Saturday, November 9).
I am in the first batch, but it does not appear I will be amongst the first 35 recipients. |
I can help you understand, although it’s self explanatory.
ultraRendu has optical input. So you need a fiber cable to feed it. So you ‘turn around” the EtherRegen.
I am not the sharpest tool in the toolbox so I still do not get it. I think you may have wanted to say opticalRendu instead of ultraRendu, Sonore states as "Cable Ethernet Input to USB-Audio Output". Whatever, the case, I will figure it out and I will buy this EtherREGEN since it is an obvious business expense for my office network. Thanks for your effort in explaining.
Don't worry about further explanations I will give a call EtherREGEN and figure it out over email or phone. |
My bad. I meant opticalRendu
Happy to help further if I can:
What part of it you need help with? the connection part, or the functionality, what brings to the table for those who have the opticalRendu?
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@thyname When I originally read about the EtherREGEN it was 3AM. Now that I had my 2 hours of sleep I looked at this again with full mental agility. :)
It seems the question I need answering is what goes into the streaming endpoint in the EtherREGEN + OpticalRendu flow, is it USB or RJ45? |
You get Ethernet (copper) from router / main switch into the B side of EtherRegen Then you buy a SFP fiber transceiver for EtherRegen (it has a FMC port, but not the transceiver). Something life the one at the bottom of this page ($20):
http://sonore.us/opticalModule.html
You put that transceiver into the one port on EtherRegen located on side A. Then you run a fiber cable from that EtherRegen FMC port on side A to your opticalRendu Then USB cable from your opticalRendu to the USB input of your DAC |
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@thyname Ok, USB to the endpoint makes it super clear. I got confused thinking RJ45 to the endpoint was the goal. I understand there are some clocking things (beyond my pay scale of understanding) that the EtherREGEN does but I wonder how it compares with the following for USB end point streaming. So taking the EtherREGEN + OpticalRendu scenario you described and comparing with the following:
https://www.ui.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-8-150w/
(or EtherREGEN) (Fiber Optical Output for either one) + Sonore Signiture Rendu SE Optical -> USB DAC input Or to go a little crazy and compare with (non-USB end point)
https://www.ui.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-8-150w/ (or EtherREGEN)
(Fiber Optical Output for either one)
+ Lumin X1 using Fiber Optical DAC input In the future, I see a lot more DACs with a Fiber optical input. Just 3 years ago I was wondering if RJ45 DAC input was the future over USB. |
I don't know. I cannot possibly try them all. I have an Innuos ZENith MK3 and a DAC with USB input, so I look for potential solutions that may improve that particular set up. It's worth experimenting and trying different things. It's a hobby, so it's fun |
Have anyone compared between local file playback and streaming media? |
Have anyone compared between local file playback and streaming media? @windowsx Since you are in the 'biz' how about sharing your findings and thoughts on the question you ask? I'm 100% streaming so I do not have results to share. Many find their local files to be superior. [???Notwithstanding the rigorousness / equivalency of (or lack thereof) their comparisons???] |
Well, allow me to introduce myself first. I'm a passionate audiophile who use high quality digital sources like Esoteric/Emm Labs/etc. When playing file from server couldn't match the quality of flagship CD transport, I developed my own solution that could be considered very close and satisfying enough for me to enjoy.
Then I signed up for Tidal streaming CD quality, it was a disappointment comparing to tracks I ripped from CD with Plextor Premium2 drive. Many of my highend audiophile friends and vendors also told me in private that Tidal sounds unacceptable for highend systems. They also sell and use with other servers too not just my products.
So, I spent years searching for promising solution to cure network inferiority hoping I can enjoy Tidal streaming with my systems. I couldn't find one that I can truly enjoy with. They usually sound more cleaner or more spatial with richer ambient or more quiet but couldn't get solid dynamics and coherent sound that can deliver good deep and tight bass with good control and expand.
Well, at least my recent product is good enough for me to deliver missing aspects and my friend who used to complain about Tidal now say he can enjoy Tidal in serious highend system even with airplay. Some also said it's like playing from hard drive directly. So I get satisfying results now.
I think having a good reference to compare will make evaluation of our systems being more rational. Going streaming only is also fine. I'm just curious if there's anyone else comparing between streaming and good quality local playback to notice the difference.
Regards,
Keetakawee |
I have compared streaming to my ripped cd files.
maybe my system is not resolving enough but I truly find it hard to detect a big difference, MAYBE on certain albums I can just detect a hint more digital glare or harshness to the streamed file compared to my local ripped file but its a tough call.
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I have also compared and MQA Tidal and 24/96 and up Qobuz sound as good as my ripped CDs using DB Poweramp software and my Innuos server/streamer. Regular Tidal and Qobuz sound very, very similar. So very close. It depends on your digital front end and system. No one answer is going to fit for all in all circumstances. |
File playback from a RAM Disk is amazing. From an NVME SSD its very good. I can't listen to my stuff on HDD anymore as its not in the same class.
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Kind of humorous... back 30 years ago the hot setup was ATT Glass Fiber, using special ATT connectors .Theta Wadia, I think even Levinson were using it. Now we’ve gone back around. There is a very proven reason to not throw out you old neck ties. LOL silly audiophiles i
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Local Hi Rez rips and downloads played from a SD card sound 7.5% better than Hi-Rez and MQA from Qobuz and Tidal on my Cary DMS 600
Regan coming . Will see if it can close the gap |
The rear of my old C.E.C CD transport still has an ATT glass fiber output.
Maybe I will get to use it someday soon!
What goes around, comes around...…..
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So I’ve had the EtherRegen in my system for over a day now. I run an Ethernet cable directly from my Mac Pro tower running Jriver to a Directstream dac with bridge2. My point is that I’m not going through a switch. There is switch and the rest of my network on the mac’s second Ethernet port)
I haven’t tested to see if my system (Tad Cr1’s And BHK300 amps- Atmasphere pre) sounds cleaner than running through a switch.
I’ll make a bold (and silly) statement. If you are running an Ethernet based audio system which is of significant fidelity, and you have $650 of disposable income, one would have to suffer from some form of mental illness if they didn’t buy this product (or a competing one which works similarly and as effectively)
After hearing it, I consider this type of isolation
to be mandatory. Not an optional tweek, but mandatory.
No amount of downstream gear upgrade, attention to setup, or expensive cable is going to fix what I now consider the inherently flawed signal timing (and noise possibly) associated with computer based Ethernet audio.
Perhaps I’ll post a proper review compiled from my comments from another message board, but avoid this product at your own peril.
No description of telling how it benefited my system (which already has a passive medical type Ethernet isolator in line ) is going to replace you hearing what fixing this problem (we never knew we had) will sound like until you hear it preferably in your own system.
With a 30 day evaluation it’s a no brainer. The only downside to this product is the wait time to get one. I now wonder if there might be any benefit for video. It all seems counterintuitive at first in a “bit perfect” world of thinking, but clearly as digital audio evolves we are leaning aspects previously thought irrelevant. I’ve already recommended it to a pro audio guy using Dante based Ethernet audio.
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@emailists Thanks for your feedback on the EtherRegen. Looking forward to your 'full' review. |
I received my EtherREGEN yesterday. I really did not have much expectations on this (just a bit :-)) but I am already thrilled about what it does. This is one of those purchases that I don't regret making for sure! |
Please remind us of your digital front end chain? How is it incorporated in your rig. Thanks. |
For now:
Router ----> Ethernet cable (copper) ----> opticalModule ---> fiber cable ---> feeding A side SFP module / cage on EtherREGEN ----> Ethernet Cable out of the B-side on EtherREGEN ---> Innuos ZENith MK3 (as Roon Server and endpoint) ---> USB cable out to DAC (MSB Discrete) |
Nice! Please keep us updated. Thank you.
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If I am using a pair of FMC’s ie. TP Link MC100CM’s at router and then a BJC CAT6 to a single source ie. an Aries streamer, does adding a switch somewhere to the chain make a difference? Or does going fibre with the FMC's already provide enough isolation to cover it.
I only have a single source. |
@mikey8811 I was using similar optical isolation with dual opticalModules from Sonore each powered by its own SGC 5V power supply. I replaced the one downstream with the EtherRegen. Kept the opticalModule upstream. This change provided an audible positive SQ difference for me. EtherRegen gives us more than optical isolation. Read the technical details if so inclined: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/EtherREGEN_User_Guide.pdf?90Having said this, each system is different. You will need to try for yourself if you really want to know for sure. |
@thyname I am unsure if that will work for me as my optical modules are not Gigabit but only 100 Mbps.
From what I have read I believe switches like these and the SOtM one need a Gigabit connection.
The reason I asked is because I was under the impression that switches are used only when you have more than one upstream or downstream connection.
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It will surely work. But you will have to remove your fiber modules completely. In fact, this was how it was meant to be for the majority of applications, where there is no optical/ fiber presence |
There is no such thing as an audio network switch. They ALL work on
digital mostly ethernet packets. It is LUDICROUS to think otherwise.
PS:
I worked for Cisco for 17 years as a software technical lead and I am
now at Broadcom as a principal software engineer, who makes the chips
for these switches.
It doesn't matter that you work at the ASIC level. It doesn't matter if you understand clock domain boundaries. It doesn't matter that the base clock for Ethernet is 25Mhz (WAAAAY beyond hearing). It doesn't matter that there are PCI-e bus, USB bus, FSB, CPU clocks, paging going on constantly. All that sitting between the Ethernet port and the input on the DAC. It doesn't matter that 10Gbe that is routinely affordable now can transfer ~ 2 CD's worth of information in a single second and you can pull the cable on many playback computers and appliances and the music will still play. But go on ahead and keep presenting logic. Could you get one of your PHY guys into the thread? |
@thyname have you tried removing your Sonore Optical Module upstream and just running the ER via ethernet?
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No. Not yet. I will try this weekend |
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@mikey8811 : update
I tried my EtherRegen with and without opticalModule. No difference that I can discern. Not even sighted |
@thyname thanks for the feedback. I read other reviews and there are some folk who find the ER causing a loss of body and warmth and sounding too smooth and clean. If that is the case, I don't think it will work for my tastes. That is the impression I have had with other Uptone products in my system. I would put them in the category of "you hear more but may not like what you hear"
@david_ten thanks for the tip on the Japanese switch. That sounds like it will work for me. However, the price is staggering.
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My experience has been different @mikey8811 but of course, that’s just a subjective data point. As with everything, nothing replaces your own experience, in your home, with your own equipment. |
@mikey8811 You are welcome. Telegärtner manufactures Networking Components for industrial, commercial, and home use...which is reassuring. Pricing on these types of products is high.
You may also want to consider Waversa...their router- switch combo has separation for general internet and the audio side. Cost again is high. |
I just purchased the
TCXO Audiophile Ethernet Network Switch - "Silent Angel" Bonn N8.
I haven't seen any others here using it but there are several good international reviews and the price was right compared to other audio playback specific switches I looked at. I will try in the configurations suggested earlier in this thread by @almarg and let you all know what I think. It should be here before Christmas. |
If it is anything like my SOTM switch, when you pair your new switch with nice ethernet cables the combo will make you smile big! |
I was just doing some back of the envelope math to estimate the narrowest of PWM pulses from redbook.
(2^16) *44KHz~3GHz. Thats a 4 inch wavelength!
If spectral content of the PWM wave exceeds the bandwidth of cable or connectors (impedance and loss stable over bandwidth) then VSWR and loss induced wave distortion is entirely possible.
Thank you @almarg for the RF insight. That kind of thought is entirely appropriate when trying to define potential sound changes due to the handling of analog waveforms representing 1s and 0s. Ethernet switches should have a far more stable source and load connection impedances to handle the advertised bandwidths. Cable loss and bandwidth also needs to be sufficient.
Normally I'd jump on a Sotm Neo or Sonore Ultrarendu but there doesn't seem to be a way to include Dirac Live in the PC since windows treats it like a virtual soundcard. Anyone have any luck with that? Having Dirac in the PC does eliminate an A/D conversion and has always largely improved my sound, whether improvements surpass what a Sotm Neo network player would provide remains to be seen.
Perhaps a USB to I2S converter and a short high speed USB cable will keep me going. Sticking to a DAC with I2S may also be wise.
Brody
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@brotw, thanks for the mention, and for your comments. However while I of course agree that spectral components at very high frequencies are present in Ethernet signals when audio data is being conveyed, certainly extending up to hundreds of MHz and probably to a significant degree into the GHz region, I would have to disagree with your analysis. The factor of 2^16 (or 65,536) in your analysis, which of course corresponds to the number of possible signal levels that can be defined by Redbook data, is not being used correctly. What is being conveyed for each sample (for each channel) is simply 16 bits, not 65,536. So to be precise, given also that the 8b/10b encoding used by Ethernet increases the number of bits by 25%, your equation should be: 16 bits/sample x 44,100 samples per second x 2 channels x 1.25 = 1.764 MHz The reason spectral components can be present at hundreds of MHz or more can be analyzed approximately as follows: My understanding is that both 100 mbps and 1000 mbps Ethernet transmit packets of data at clock rates of 125 MHz, which corresponds to a clock interval of 8 ns (nanoseconds). The risetimes and falltimes of the signal must therefore be significantly less than 8 ns. Let’s say 2 ns. If we assume first order rolloff, risetimes and falltimes of 2 ns correspond to 3 db of rolloff at 0.35/2 ns = 175 MHz. First order rolloff corresponds to 20 db/decade, so the spectral content of those risetimes and falltimes would only be down 20 db at 175 MHz x 10 = 1.75 GHz! Thanks again. Regards, --Al |
This is a data sheet from a typical Ethernet pulse transformer for 10/100/1000-T https://product.tdk.com/info/en/catalog/datasheets/090007/trans_alt_en.pdf?ref_disty=digikeyWhile common mode rejection can be 30-40db, the insertion loss, i.e. losses in sending an actual signal, are quite low, 1-2db, even at 100KHz. 1 transformer at either end, so 2-4db attenuation at 100Khz, which is not a lot. The question is, how good were the circuit designers at either end in ensuring noise didn't get onto or coupled from the Ethernet "signal"? |
... losses in sending an actual signal, are quite low, 1-2db, even at 100KHz. ... and I would emphasize that losses are even a good deal less than 1-2 db at 100 MHz, as can be seen in the graphs. The question is, how good were the circuit designers at either end in ensuring noise didn’t get onto or coupled from the Ethernet "signal"? +1. Thanks for providing the link. Best regards, -- Al |
