Network Switches

@alvin1118   Hi Alvin. You are welcome. And YES, it will be interesting to get Srajan Ebaen's take, given his self-stated aversion to streaming. : )

Just came across this Network Switch. English Electric Ethernet Switch:

https://englishelectric.uk/

US$595 List.  Affiliate of Chord Cable.

Hans Beekhuyzen explaining WiFi vs. network cabling and more...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9RSLHOFOTc

Audio Bacon / Jay Luong has a brief overview of the upcoming Melco S100 Switch here:

https://audiobacon.net/2019/10/23/melcos-new-audio-specific-s100-data-switch/

@mitch2 

My knowledge of switches is basically non-existent, hence the dumb question. If this is not the thread for this then just say so.

Not a "dumb question" and certainly appropriate for the thread. 

Hopefully another member/poster will comment. Family is in from out of town and I haven't had time to spare. I'll be able to catch up this weekend.

@mitch2  Did the posts / responses answer your questions?

@grannyring  Bill, I went with Small Green Computer's internal bridge (i.e. within their server). They had offered it on my now older build. It is offered again on their most current i9 build but not on their i5 unit.

I prefer going through the internal (simple) bridge within the server versus using the switching capability of my Netgear Orbi Satellite. The differences aren't major but definitely noticeable and preferred.

I attribute the differences I hear as more likely due to the isolation of the server and the fact that it is powered off a dedicated LPS with a much, much better power cord.

The LPS to the Orbi Satellite is the same as the one to the server, however, it has dual DC outputs... both being utilized. As mentioned above, it is powered with a basic power cord. Due to the shape of the Orbi, I am unable to isolate it with the footers, etc. that I currently have.

I'm evaluating server choice. If I stay with Small Green Computer, I'll have them customize the build (including a higher quality internal bridge, if possible). 

Bridging and switching were brought up in a previous post.

I have (at this point in time) eliminated the network switch for my audio system and utilize a "simple bridge" within my server. 

Here are straightforward definitions and explanations of the differences between the two...

https://techdifferences.com/difference-between-bridge-and-switch.html

http://nhprice.com/tutorial-of-differences-between-hub-bridge-switch-and-router.html

https://www.globalknowledge.com/us-en/resources/resource-library/articles/what-s-the-difference-between-hubs-switches-bridges/

And a heavier, more detailed read:

https://book.systemsapproach.org/internetworking/switching.html

Since it hasn’t been brought up, consider GROUNDING the switch with a RJ45 terminated grounding cable.

Additionally, vibrational / resonance control via footers (etc.) will help. Weights to help stabilize the unit (the consumer 8 Port units are lightweight), especially important if the LAN cables are hefty.

I bring this up because in many systems the switch seems to have the ultimate ugly duckling status. This was the case again (just last evening)...the switch was under the rack on the carpet. Out of sight but likely not out of earshot. : )

@mitch2 Great. There have been a number of really helpful posts. Thanks to all for their contributions and support of the community.

Let us know which switch you choose and how it works out.

In the past I used the HDPlex to power my switch and other front end peripherals and the differences vs. the stock wall warts were easily discernible.

@jason_k2017

even the very highest quality digital audio stream is a breeze.

This isn’t (solely) about having good or great latency for your streaming purposes.

Why would I install something which will change the audio that the studio took so much care to create, and my DAC has taken so much care to faithfully reproduce?

Consider a switch as being an ’equal’ / component-level... as you do your DAC.

In my limited personal experience, the better the feed to the DAC the better the DAC’s performance. And, using your word, the more "faithful" the system's performance.

Jason: please forgive me, for I cannot answer your questions. My use of your word faithful was in quotes....   : )

WOW!!! I finally got through reading all of the posts on the thread. I was avoiding tax filing work I need to tend to today. For once, I think I can honestly say I'd rather be doing my taxes. 😊

Jason, the members that responded to you were in fact providing useful and helpful information. You can choose not to accept that information, which is totally cool...your call...but it isn’t cool to say they are not being helpful.

At this point I’m not sure if I should interpret your posts as those of someone with an agenda or worse???

Feel free to post the feedback and responses you have received from your consultant and friend. Perhaps their perspective and take on these matters will be educational and helpful to others.

It will also be helpful to know which DAC you are using and your system chain.

I’m open to learning. Thank you.

@jason_k2017  Jason, in the spirit of transparency and sharing, I'm of the belief that if I ask someone for their system information I should be ready to share mine. Here it is:

https://audio-system-details.blogspot.com/

@almarg  and @atdavid  Thank you for your detailed EE based and focused posts and measured responses. They are not only helpful but also supportive of the spirit of the forum. Your efforts and time are appreciated.

@thyname  Thanks. Your findings are important to me. I've held off on adding fiber "links" within my system because I do not want to screw up aspects like timbre and tonality (both of which you report on positively) etc.

@thyname I’m a long-time Sonore customer and currently have their previous gen (non optologic) Sonore Signature Rendu SE player. I’m also a long-time customer of Small Green Computer for their servers. I’ve paired SGC with Sonore for a number of years now.

I had the opportunity to try Sonore’s (as they refer to it) "Signature Rendu SE - single enclosure opticalRendu and linear power supply" very early on but chose to hold off until SGC released a server with an SFP. SGC is out with their unit, but I’m holding off on making a final choice in a Server.

I also followed the very lengthy Computer Audiophile (now AS) thread on addressing network (and noise) isolation with the use of layered fiber solutions. I chose to hold off on doing so for a number of reasons, primary among them was the need to hear a fiber based system to determine if the resulting sound quality / performance met my needs and goals.

You didn’t have specific questions in your previous post. If you do, let us know and I’ll respond if I’m in a position to address them.

@thyname  Do you have a feel for / thoughts on the reasons the Sonore Optical Modules outperformed the 'standard' FMCs? Thanks.

@thyname  Got it. : ) 

@uberwaltz  Thanks much for posting actual hands on results.

For reference and for those who are new to this:

SFP = Small Form-Factor Pluggable Transceiver

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_form-factor_pluggable_transceiver

FMC = Fiber Media Convertor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_media_converter

Basic overview:  https://planetechusa.com/blog/media-converter-quick-guide/

Have anyone compared between local file playback and streaming media?

@windowsx   Since you are in the 'biz' how about sharing your findings and thoughts on the question you ask?

I'm 100% streaming so I do not have results to share. 

Many find their local files to be superior.  [???Notwithstanding the rigorousness / equivalency of (or lack thereof) their comparisons???] 

@emailists   Thanks for your feedback on the EtherRegen. Looking forward to your 'full' review. 

Srajan Ebaen of 6Moons will be reviewing @windowsx  / Keetakawee's Etherstream....

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/fidelizer/

Japan Telegärtner Ltd.    M12 Switch Magic

...another option for those considering a Network Switch

Review from High Fidelity Poland // Wojciech Pacula:

http://highfidelity.pl/@main-964&lang=en

@mikey8811   You are welcome. Telegärtner manufactures Networking Components for industrial, commercial, and home use...which is reassuring. Pricing on these types of products is high.

You may also want to consider Waversa...their router- switch combo has separation for general internet and the audio side. Cost again is high.

Re. the Power Supply applications....always best to optimize on the audio side first. In your situation, if I understand your post correctly, I would use the HDPlex with your server over the Router. If you were to get an additional LPS, then use it with the Router as the next step.

@mitch2   Based on my understanding of your post and questions....I would place the N8 Switch close to your Server. Run the long cable from your Router to the N8 Switch. I believe this will give you the best performance. As always, you will need to work through the options to find out for yourself and your system.

Looking forward to learning about how it works out!

Can we allow a fellow time to enjoy the gains he's achieved?  : )

Happy for you, @discopants  

@mitch2   Thanks for the updates on your adventures and congratulations on the results.

If you are open to this, I encourage you to try different LAN cables...the last three, 3ft links in your chain.

Depending on the cables used, you may be surprised by the uptick in performance. 

Audio Bacon has a list of LAN cables and their characteristics and contributions.

Fidelizer EtherStream Switch review by Srajan Ebaen // 6Moons:

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/fidelizer/

Another entrant. TotalDac Switch. News item from Mono and Stereo.

 

TotalDac Ethernet Switch

Another addition: Silent Angel reviewed by High Fidelity.

http://highfidelity.pl/@main-1100&lang=en

@sns @thyname @lalitk Thanks for the additional information and mention of specific network switches.

Here is the link to SR’s:

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/accessories/ethernet-switch-uef/

@glory An [unmanaged] switch between your (main) router and networked components is plug and play. A better / higher quality switch will result in better sound quality. Upsides can (also) be achieved from powering a switch with a linear power supply, including the mass market ones.

Think of it as a serious isolation step between a typically noisy router and your Antipodes. If configured, you can also separate your noisy/dirty components from your audio focused ones.

Given your comfort level with $$$ fuses, I’m surprised by this: : )

Does one have to pay that much $$$ for this gizmo?

Copying this for those unfamiliar with unmanaged vs. managed switches:

https://www.fieldengineer.com/blogs/network-switch-managed-vs-unmanaged

@lalitk Congratulations on acquiring the "Telegärtner M12 Switch Gold"

Looking forward to your feedback and results once you have had a chance to fully evaluate it.

For folks who may not be aware of this unit, here are impressions / reviews from Marcin Olszewski and Jacek Pazio  //  Sound Rebels.

https://soundrebels.com/telegartner-m12-switch-gold-jcat-optimo-3-duo-english-ver/

@treebeard1  Can you describe your chain from the modem on? Thanks.

@thyname I believe treebeard is referring to a LPS for his modem and router.

@treebeard1

I have, in the past, used Sonore and Uptone products in my chain.

Though I am using a linear power supply on my Modem and Router, I cannot answer your question definitively "with the EtherRegen downstream" since I do not have one in my chain.

Linear power supply reviews and owner feedback are consistent in pointing out a lower noise floor, greater transparency, and overall improvements in sound quality across most descriptors.

Given the length of your generic LAN cable run (50 feet) I believe you will achieve better results by doing the following:

Step 1.  Forgo the LAN cable run by adding a Mesh Router Satellite close to your audio system / EtherRegen.

Modem > Router >>> WiFi to  >>> Mesh Router / Satellite

This will isolate and separate your primary Modem and Router from the audio section of your system.

Step 2. Use a linear power supply on the Satellite.

Step 3. Add a short run of a high quality LAN cable from the Satellite to your Ether Regen.

There are many decent, low cost linear power supplies. I use the HDPlex for my less critical accessories. Something along the lines of HDPlex, etc. will deliver results. However, in your application I suggest going with a higher quality linear power supply.

I use the Keces P8 Ultra Low Noise linear power supply. There are other options, but most come in at a higher cost. If you want to spend less, then consider the Keces P3.

The above approach will deliver a significant return on your investment and effort. There are a couple of additional steps you can take that are additive to the above. Those can be saved for later.

I am curious how many are using an LPS on the modem and router (I have both) and what the result has been. I have heard this can be a significant improvement but I'm not sure how significant those gains would be with the EtherREGEN downstream.

Brick Wall power conditioner > iFi 12v power supply (2) > modem and router > 50 ft. Ethernet cable (generic) > EtherREGEN with LPS-1.2 > PS Audio DSD Jr. bridge > LTA MZ2 > Halo A21 > Tekton DI

@treebeard1   Yes, the satellite will have at least one, usually more LAN ports.

If you go with this approach, consider brands/models which have larger "open" space access for the LAN and DC power cables. It will allow for easier cable connections, especially if the cables are thicker / stiffer. It will also allow for the satellite unit to stand properly "upright."

@mitch2  This is a redirect to the poster's site. I have reported it.

@sns   Thanks so much for sharing your experience and approach.

I'm curious. Can you share your network chain, since eliminating the switch?  Thanks. - David.

@lmcmalo  Thank you very much for contributing to this thread and topic. Your experience and perspective are helpful and valuable. I'm glad you posted!

I have (also) bypassed an 'audiophile' stand alone switch for my system. However, I have heard the results and contributions made by some of the 'audiophile' switches and fully understand the choice made and it's utility for those who go down that path. 

Like @sns I've invested in the power side, custom DC cabling, isolation (active and passive), grounding, etc. 

My personal experience with LAN cables is that they make a significant difference.

Your use of the word "delicate" is so apropos. : )

Looking forward to your further contributions.

- David.

@sns   Thanks so much for sharing your system chain. 

A major +1 to the following:

I"m being extremely thorough here in attempt to illustrate the importance I've placed on every single aspect of network. Paying attention to DC and AC power sources is of utmost importance IME.

I would add the importance of grounding as well...which you also addressed in your post.

- David.

@richtruss  Your finding and experience is really important and valid. I'm so glad you shared it. 

+1 to @lalitk  's concurrence with your assessment.

I'll add that choosing a well made DIY or purchased DC cable is just as important.

Another entrant. Review pending on 6Moons:

 

LHY Audio SW-8 Network Switch

@macdude   +1

 

Grimm and other designers have been able to get their switching power supply to perform well, but that's a custom design for their streamer.

Srajan Ebaen / 6Moons finalized their short review of the LHY Audio SW-8 switch.

[Note: via the "lens" of Mr. Ebaen's chain.]

 

LHY Audio SW-8 Network Switch Review