Need recommendations for a streamer
I would like to upgrade from a Bluesound Node to a higher quality streamer.
The Node sounds fine with my current system, but I am making a second system for my wife, and the Node is going to that new system. I thought I would take the opportunity to upgrade my streamer at this time.
My criteria are that it be a streamer only (no DAC/storage/CD player, etc), be able to hook into wi-fi/cloud without a physical wire/connection, have balanced outputs to go to my DAC, and cost less than 2,500 USD. Can anybody think of a streamer that fits this bill?
The rest of my system:
DAC: Terminator II
Preamp: Schiit Freya+
Amps: PS Audio M1200 x 2
Speakers: Thiel CS 2.3
Thanks.
First question you have to ask is roon or no roon? If you use roon, Aurender isn't an option. In the lower price range I am very happy with the Allo USBridge signature with Shanti power supply. Performs well above it's price point. It now resides in my second system. I have an Innous Zenity Mk3 which sounds great. My only complaint is it is not simple to move back and forth between Roon and content stored on the system. Jerry |
I'm a big proponent of keeping the ROON computer completely separate from your audio chain.
Here's what I'm using... Roon Nucleus+ wired LAN Stack Link II wired LAN, usb out to Matrix SPDIF/2 out with i2s to PS Audio DirectStream
About as clean of a sound as you can get and significant improvement over connecting the Nucleus+ to the Matrix via USB. |
Whenever I see posts for advice on specific streaming hardware to purchase, the amazing variety of advice given makes me think a whole lot of people believe their streaming setups are providing great sound quality. Not here to dispute that, I take reported positive experience at face value.
But with so many differing and positive experiences reported, how would novice know where to begin. I just know I'd be totally confused. I like what Rich said in post, nice comparison of differing topologies, this is where I'm at presently, still experimenting after nearly ten years streaming. Optimizing within each of these topologies is critical in understanding potential of each. |
Yes, it's easy to be confused by it all, in part because the vocabulary isn't really standardized. Then there's the mountain of silly misinformation, such as this gem from @jays_audio_lab on another thread, supposedly quoting a guy with a $2.5 million system and room:
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I’m using a Cambridge Audio CXNV2 and it’s great- it works - upgrading is easy- I’m hard wired to the internet router sometimes the signal is awesome most of the time the signal is awful! this morning real early I was listening to a broadcast and the system never sounded so good! the moral- poor signal poor sound quality! So if you are an internet listener don’t spend a fortune since the quality of the source and the quality of the signal will be critical
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Hello, I really love the Bluos app. I wish they would come out with a full size big brother to the NODE with LPS and balanced/ ABS/EBU outputs. Until they do that I will suggest a Lumin U1mini since they just upgraded it. If you have a few more bucks then just go for the U2mini. It is just a really great streamer. The app works very well too. Later you can add a LPS to upgrade the performance. See if you have a dealer in your area who will let you do an in home demo. If you are in the Chicagoland area Holm Audio in Woodridge, IL lets you try before you buy. If you are not from that area you can check out the website to find a local retailer. If you are looking for a little smaller footprint then TEAC makes one too using the same app either under the TEAC APP or the Lumin App. I hope this helps. |
Since you have the Terminator Plus, I’d certainly talk to Alvin Chee at Vinshine…..pretty sure he’d recommend a Denafrips DDC. As long as you bypass the internal DAC, you might be satisfied with the new Node (130). I am with a Pontus II, though I have purchased a Denafrips Iris DDC that I’ll hook up in a couple of weeks….hopefully will take things to an even higher level
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I currently/recently have the same interest in getting a streamer only to existing dac, coming from the Bluesound. I did a head to head comparison between the Bluesound and a Lumin u2 mini. Every part of me wanted to say, these will be identical or close to identical and it’s not worth the extra cash outlay. But to my chagrin, the Lumin was audibly better in terms of “tonal saturation” (whatever that means. It went from grey and hard to analog color sound), slightly cleaner treble and more open, smooth sound. Basically it decreased digititis almost completely. I believe they are priced at $2400. The app was excellent and IMO superior to Bluesound OS.
I couldn’t stomach the cost at this time however so I am about to try the ifi zen. We will see…
good luck. Check out Lumin if you have the funds. It was really great and left me wishing I could justify the spend. |
I’ve been very happy with my Cambridge Audio 851N. Discomuntinued but you can find them for about a grand. I also just bought a Cambridge Evo 75 for a little second system in the living room. Very happy with the streaming and their Streammagic ap is reliable and not bad. I stream Qobuz and run a NAS with ripped files. |
I’ve been very happy with my Cambridge Audio 851N. Discomuntinued but you can find them for about a grand. I also just bought a Cambridge Evo 75 for a little second system in the living room. Very happy with the streaming and their Streammagic ap is reliable and not bad. I stream Qobuz and run a NAS with ripped files. |
i think a reasonable assumption as to why the lumin u2 mini sounds superior (’more saturated sound, cleaner treble, etc. ’) than a node, as a streamer source, is because the lumin manages noise management/filtering much better, and allows for an upsampled digital feed so that the downstream dac can do its job better in putting the analog music together better... the good sounding zenstream (with clean external power supply) does very well on the first aspect, don’t think it does the second |
Does a Mac Mini sound better than a Dell? Does a Dell sound better than a HP? They are all streamers so lots of possible comparisons. |
I've been enjoying a Roon Nucleus Plus server, USB into my PS Audio DirectStream DAC now for several years and highly recommend the Roon branded server. Besides the sound quality, the server's Roon software is installed at the factory and I don't do much of anything from the time I did the basic setup (my Roon login credentials, setup the paths for my purchased music and where to store the Roon backups, etc.) I have a USB connected external hard drive for my purchased music and the Roon backups and periodically shut down the Roon server and connect the hard drive to a Dell laptop to back it up to the cloud...for safe keeping. |
“Does a Mac Mini sound better than a Dell? Does a Dell sound better than a HP? They are all streamers so lots of possible comparisons. ” You got this wrong bud! They all are consumer grade computers not designed and optimized for streaming audio. You get streaming functionality but they sound nothing like a dedicated streamer, not even remotely close. |
@lalitk if you're hearing differences between streamers (digital out) where things aren't even remotely close, your ears are much better than mine ;-)
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When you experience a really good streamer personally, in a system you know well, it will make you feel like youve been spinning your wheels for a long time while you believed that part of your system was on solid ground. When you experience a truly great streamer, others will sound to various degrees broken. I was in your camp until I heard the difference. All too often, people neglect to recognize that digital output over a cable is an analog waveform representation. You would too. Best. |
@ghasley I'm in the camp that you have to hear for yourself before discrediting or promoting. Otherwise, I would discredit First Watt due to relatively high noise and distortion and go with Hypex Ncore or Emotiva. Also, there has to be synergy with the DAC and the different connections....AES, USB, Optical, Coaxial, etc. |
I apologize if I gave you the impression that I hadn’t heard for myself. I started streaming years ago and was in the Mac mini is good enough camp. It was when I heard the difference between the Mac and the Innuos Zenith Mk3 and the differences between usb cables when I truly began to understand that a streamer was sending an analog representation of a digital wavestream and that all of the analog variables applied to digital streaming.
I was satisfied with the Innuos until I heard the next level of streaming solutions.
Properly utilized fiber improves things in many cases, however, I did not find it favorable. There are many roads to Damascus huh? Best. |
Sure @ghasley but I will take the road to anywhere else and pass on Damascus. The Moon by Simaudio 680D did it for me. Mind2 in this DAC is outstanding. Enlightenment comes in many ways and until you try you will never know. |
@ghasley I have always believed that differences in digital outputs must be because of something in the time domain. Noise and frequency response are easily measured and these streamers tend to measure ruler flat and noise tends to be down something like 100dB below the main tone...so inaudible. But time domain....that's where we get jitter from optical....we can of course measure jitter. The other thing in the time domain is the wave form. We see R2R resistor ladder DACs producing a much prettier sine wave than Delta Sigma DACs. We see DACs where their slower filter produces a nicer sine wave than their fast/sharp filter. We see DACs being ranked based on THD & Noise...but THD and noise are so low already, who cares if SINAD is 120 or 95? Only Audio Science Review people care...and that's measuring an ANALOG output stage. So a digital out on a streamer? These suckers measure incredible with THD, SNR, and Frequency Response. Which leads me to the belief that the real issue is in the time domain and very few people are paying attention to the time domain...and that is why your DAC and its inputs are so important. When people say they like their streamers coaxial but not not USB, this is one example IMO. Some people like Zen Stream coaxial but not USB....maybe this has to do with the streamer, the DAC, or both. I draw the same conclusions with speakers cables and crossover parts. Things can be smeared in the time domain. Well known technical reviewers like Brent Butterworth still like to measure speaker cables using frequency response...but are IMO using the wrong tool. |
Indeed, what clock in what component is best suited. Which power supply is best equipped to reject noise. Everything matters. Ive tried to minimize steps and where there is a component necessary I try to buy the best available within a certain price band. High quality cables…power supplies…all within the realities of my listening environment. |
@badgerdms to get back to your question I used MacBook Pro prior to my Bricasti M5. Mac sounded very good but Bricasti was much improved. Now= Mesh Router- Fmc- Optical cable- Fmc- M5- AQ Coffee usb- Dac Adding a good quality dual outlet LPS to the Fmc’s added noticeable improvement as well. |
You have a truly outstanding DAC in the Sim 680D. It compares quite well with anything near it’s price range in my view. However, If you want to take it’s performance to an even higher level, try auditioning it with an outboard streamer (obviously well above something like the Node 2 and the like). I took my Auralic Aries G2 to a Sim dealer and we did this exact comparison. Even the dealer (doesn’t sell Auralic) had to admit that it very substantially improved things. That experience was enlightening to me. Best, |
Pre-owned BRYSTON as a prime choice. Sure …. Budgets ALWAYS matter big time ..,, BUT ….You do not have to buy new, You start gettting stepped-up audio performance improvement delineation at an approx.> $3000-and- up MSRP price-point . That’s where their superior parts, and their high-end performance linear power supplies (either built-in or external) and their top-end build quality manifests itself. And it exhibits itself further in that they offer later high trade-in / upgrade values ) (Hint: it’s the budget and mid level models that form the huge chunk of the forum audio performance warts and perceived further upgrading wants) |
I am also looking for streamer to hook up to my Esoteric K-03XD dac. I bet usb is the best connection than digital Coaxial and Optical. Am I correct? |
Anyone still using (still available?) an Elac, Discovery? I use mine hardwired to a Mac AirPort Express wirelessly connected to another AirPort that's hardwired to my router. Have a BNC to RCA Coax connection (various better cables) to a Line Magnetic DAC. The result is shocking great. For $1K is a wonderful piece. Comes with a abbreviated version of Roon too with a lifetime subscription. Couldn't be happier with the product and features, actual high performance AND value. |
Thank you, all, for the great constructive responses. It has been quite an education, clarifying many things and raising new questions as my understanding of the topic grows.
It sounds like what I need to do to optimize my streaming system is 1. Hardwire my streamer 2. Get a linear power supply 3. Invest in an ethernet switch 4. Consider a digital to digital converter
Do I have that right, and did I prioritize/sequence them correctly?
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Ted Smith of PS Audio fame. (Created the DirectStream Dac) when asked: Ted … would a powered USB hub connected to a linear power supply address the USB noise issue? It will help compared to the typical noisy USB supplies in computers and the wall wart USB hub supplies. You only want the DS on the USB hub with a linear supply and you want to use a shorter USB cable there (6’ or whatever, not 15’.)
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https://www.denafrips.com/gaia Yes, digital to digital converter. Like this^^^ |
