My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

I have read this thread off and on for the last year or so in hopes that there might be an amplifier here that ultimately stood out for the test of time.  And now that I prepare to take on a similar quest for the “great” amp for the speakers that I recently purchased for a basement music system. I truly do not know where to start other than to consider retubing the CAT JL3’s that I have sitting on the sidelines.

The OP’s system changes so frequently with rarely a mention of the system’s full configuration at the time of each “shootout” that it is impossible for anybody to come away with any thoughts of what to focus one’s attention.  From reading this thread, I would conclude that the OP spends more time packing, unpacking, shipping, receiving, connecting. disconnecting, etc., audio equipment than the time spent listening to music.  And how long does a component ever “equalize” in the listening environment after it is unpacked?  With temperature and humidity differences between the shipper’s vehicle and warehouse, and seasonal influences, having newly arrived electronics sit in the listen room for several hours before powering on is simply common sense.  Taking a box just received after an across-the-country or overseas shipment, unpacking the component and then immediately powering it on is simply asking for trouble!

A few weeks ago, the OP wrote, “I’m very selective and know what each component can do. “

This is interesting as I have had the Aria WV5 XL preamp for 10 years now and I still don’t know all that it can do!  With a new TT/Arm after owning the last one for 18 years, I have discovered how incredible the MM and MC stages are in the WV5 vs. how I felt when I received this unit.  Awe yes, the incremental system changes since then.

And also from the OP: “I am blessed to have enough credibility after writing here for last few years.”  

Unless I am missing something, I don’t see any credibility in making such generalizations such as this amp has the “best bass” or it destroyed amp Z, the most lethargic speakers I ever heard, the sound was fatiguing that I could not listen any more, etc., etc., without giving the reader a full description of the system (including ALL cables) at that point in time.  And certainly not to make such conclusions after just an hour or so after inserting it into one’s system.  The jaw-dropping moment that occurs upon first hearing a component or a system is all too frequently gone an hour or day later.  When you can listen to your system for hours and hours on a regular basis, and can’t turn it off, that’s an achievement that no jaw-dropping event can ever surpass.  But for a system always in flux, this can never be achieved.

And what about the speaker you loved so much 2 months ago?  How might it sound today with the new line stage you are now using vs. the one you had when you “rated” that previously awesome speaker the “best”?  Maybe it will now have the best bass you ever heard in your system?

A number of problems, that I face every time I try a new component or even move a component, are not addressed much if at all by the OP.  What about warm up time?  Does the amp need a half hour, 4 hours, all day, etc., to truly come to life?  Is it economically sensible to own “this” amp if it draws a lot of idle power and needs to be on all the time?  Or one advantage of such an amp is that it sounds incredible after just a short warm up time?  Powering down both amps to be compared and then re-powered the next day and do some evaluations as to which one sounds awesome in a short time.  Do I really want to wait until 11pm for my beloved amp to sound good, or do I keep it on all the time while I receive electric bills that cause such entirely different jaw-dropping moments?

Did the amp audition include trying different ICs between the line stage and amp?  Were different speaker cables tried or other power cords into the amp? My experience in building audio systems is that the most crucial cable in the system is between the line stage and amp.  All other cables can and do make significant changes, but they are way down “the influence chain” from this crucial link.  Just as the OP writes about an amp “destroying” another amp, I can very easily destroy all the 3D magic of that system by simply inserting in that link any number of “crappy” ICs that have gotten rave reviews.  That for the OP will likely be another jaw dropping moment.

And yes, power cords can make a substantial improvement.  The Dream State Dream Catcher is one power cable that is crazy incredible no matter where I have tried it.  As the OP claims a $5k power cord is ridiculous, but wouldn’t someone with that mindset also think that a preamplifier (ARC Ref 10) at $30k for example, to also be ridiculous?  After all, it’s just a stupid box that switches line sources and provides for level control?  Just as I can buy a $9 power cord from Home Depot, I can buy a source switcher/volume control for $100 on ebay.  

Has one’s system which has been optimized for much detail now become almost unlistenable because the amp “under review” has the same attributes/signature?  ….. too much of a good thing or bad thing?  Or does this amp’s detail bring on a good balance between the warmth, decays, etc., with the rest of the system that has been assembled up to that point?  Dismissing a product at a given time is often because it simply does not mate well with our system at that moment and not because another product is better or the best.  It’s not about synergy, which is such a lame word here…it’s about personal preferences and compromises that we all must make with one set of pros/cons of the product under evaluation to the product currently in the system.  

And I don’t buy into the claim that one must use all components from one brand.  I have assembled too many systems (phono, line, amp) of multiple brands that result in far more magic than what I heard from the one brand.

What about the issue of system disruption.  Every time components are moved on the equipment rack, cables are being disconnected/re-connected, re-routed, under, over, across, others, including power cords, along, under, components.  And when all is ready to be powered on with the listener all relaxed on sofa with remote volume in hand ....... damn ……….. hum!  This is more frequent that would be expected.  Some effort to re-route cables nearly always resolves the problem within an hour or so, but still it’s a reality and a major pain.  Simply dropping a “new” amp into the rack is not quite as easy as the OP makes it sound - well not from my experiences anyway.  Having the amp in it’s own “semi-environment” such as between the speakers allows for easier change and less disruption to the rest of the system setup.  But still, doing this what looks to be daily, would result in never getting a chance to optimize the system as it is at any one moment.

And then there’s the issue of power conditioners.  The OP stated last week, “Update: the c900u and m900u components need to be connected to the wall. DO NOT CONNECT THEM TO A STUPID POWER CONDITIONER OR POWER REGENERATOR.  I did this and they lost magic. Now they are connected into the wall and they are back to sounding huge.”  

A reference to which conditioner used here would have put the statement into context.  But one easy conclusion to be made here is that no conditioner can possibly work with these products, or perhaps no conditioner with any amp.  Again, component and system context is crucial here if the writing is to provide any value other than “I did this, I did that”.  

I have little experience experimenting with power amps into conditioners, and certainly I have no interest to “play” with a stupid conditioner.  The CAT JL3’s that I have had for many years were always plugged into the wall.  But after trying many conditioners and discovering the awesome (killer value) Running Springs (RS) Haley for the preamp and sources, I did a little reading about the RS Duke conditioner that was designed to be used with amps.  I still am curious to try one of these.  But one thing I will never do is to conclude that any or all conditioners will result in the same outcome.  Now that would be stupid.

Another challenge I see for the OP is to try to achieve top-notch musical performance while wrapping in all the other required components for a home theater setup.  This out of the gate is riddled with compromises.  It can take years and years to achieve a music system with awesome dimensional results.  This for many is what putting together a musical system is all about.  But a home theater is more about frequency extremes and dynamics.  Speaker placement, such as putting them way out into the room for music can be ultra critical whereas for Home Theater, the sound effects we are after here can be achieved with little or no effort.  And all the extra electronics, cabling, surround speakers, subwoofers, etc., all over the room can affect the magic we achieved with our music system before all this HT crap was added.  I tried this and I simply could not achieve what I wanted for either music or HT, and thus back to two systems.  For many people out there, only one room is available for all of this and such compromises must be made.

John

Are you starved for advice or just lazy?  Make your own decisions and stop falling for this guys scam.

What a joke.

I did not mean to imply that this thread is a scam or joke. I was simply stating that this thread would/could provide value/ideas as to what amps would ultimately be on a "must audition" list.

And yes, absolutely this is the OP's thread. There was entertainment from reading this but after awhile it's much the same as 3-6 months before. However, once the OP stated that much of his effort would result in conclusions that other members would not have to go through the same effort, well, that's where things fall apart. Such a process needs to be taken to an altogether different level for this to be valid.

For a member to have the financial resources to try multiple amps and/or multiple speakers at a time is a privilege that few members will have. To go all out to find the ideal location for each speaker, with the amp(s) that make it play magic and to document other system changes, e.g., cable swaps, that were necessary to get this magic for each speaker and/or amp. Mark the locations in the room (with painters tape) for each speaker. Lots of work here. And when finally setup, live with a configuration for a day or more. DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING NO MATTER THE TEMPTATIONS! Don't let jaw-dropping moments take over your senses; simply document the observations. Then roll out another amp that sounded good with these speakers and live with this for a day or more. A final/quick return to the previous amp to confirm the most recent observations would seal the opinions here. And get those quickly documented. When it's time to change speakers, roll in another pair, at there designated locations as marked by the tape, rinse and repeat.

Such a report would be awesome for the one doing this work and also to the readers. This would be far more value than changing something multiple times a day and/or every week or month. And no obligation to report anything specifically because the employer needs to sell advertisements.

But again, yes. it is his thread. At least he's having fun and that's cool.

Once I get ahold of a 3m IC to be able to relocate the current amplifier (Symphonic Line RG 11) to be between the SF Amati Futura speakers, an amp shootout will be in order. A likely start will be with newly re-tubed JL3's and then look to try a pair of Plinius 102, Magnus 500, Boulder 1060, Karan 1200/650, Soulution 511, Classe Omega. Any other suggestions for high current amps to be auditioned would be greatly appreciated.

John

I would get the Alexia or Scala EVO instead of the ML. You already tried ML if I remember, and you seem to aim for the Wilson type of speaker dynamics.

The baddest systems I’ve seen were with big rig Wilson, or top of the line B&W or Focal.