Same thing here. Have been through this thread like a teenager reading his first lover letter... I have to say I am the lucky owner of a (pre-owned) Luxman M-900u amplifier I aquired lately at a great price I could not resist ( 12.7K cad$). Very tubey midrange sound , with treble harmonic density and refinement seen in best tube amps out there. And the way it is build inside and out is ahead of everything I’ve seen up to 30k imho. Looking foward to continue reading, and discuss with AG forumers. |
May I suggest to the op to try anaother dac, as the PS audio DirectStream is good but not sota. A sota dac should bring more to the sound than a sota preamp ( as I’ve read you tried many preamps). Preamp latest designs have followed some of the dac trend revolution, in that we are getting a lot more performance for a lot less money than 6-10 years ago. This is the reason why recent integrateds have been better for less money, it is the preamp sections of those that have Evolved, (not so the amp section). As good as a SOTA active preamp can be, what it is doing is always adding different coloration to the sound. The art of the thing is done in the DAC. |
About dacs, I do beleive the revolution has slowed down a lot. There is a limit as to where programming can improove the digital to analog result. They say the best sota dacs of the moment sound just like vinyl. Will the best Totaldac or MSB or APL be bettered by the new best in 5 years from now...I may be wrong but don t think so.
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If you don t mind, we can keep your thread a little warm in the meantime.
Just finished a listening session with a friend, of the Luxman M-900u. We could not stop listening to Time out ( Brubeck). The Lux has all the warmth to enable loud listening without making the alto sax. hurting the ears. Astonishing detail retreival, and timbre, highs are just very define and smooth. Am using a very analog sounding APL DSD-S as a dac ( fpga pcm to dsd), wandering if it could ever get better than the way it retrieves all that detail and nuances in the recording. Using a Shunyata Alpha digital as pc, this hing pushed the dac to a new level of clarity.( was using a very good Audiolink AC cuivre made with occ copper and all copper furutech11 conectors)
Had an Hegel H160 integrated before this huge change of direction to separates. The H160 was no slouch and offers a lot for the price point I can tell you this. But the new amp/pre rig has transcended the listening experience to the next level for sure. Just normal considering the price level.
I m sure there are tubes based rigs outhere that can give better or same performance musicaly for less money that the Lux 900u. But I m a techno purist type...I need to know I have best modern design and measurements , so tube is not me in this case. This is why I have chosen the Lux amp, I fell for its guts design equally (or even more ? sounds weird isnt it) than its sound. Like buying a car with the latest transmission and motor tech.
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I don t agree about the preamp being the heart of the system. You will never hear more resolution and transparency than plugging the dac direct to amp. So what you are hearing is mostly added color and gain. I ‘ sure most of you would not pass the blind test if we compared a 7k$ C52 Mac equalized to sound as the 15k ref6 arc...
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The famous debate of the pre.
What I don’t get is why we put huge amount of money on the amplifier design...powerful class A or tube for that lush midrange and highs, tube for that midrange warmth and tonal density. We then « mess around with» or « add » to it in the preamplifier...logically we just should not have to. It s like putting crunchy peanut butter on top of an already crunchy peanut buttered toast...just buy crunchier peanut butter in the first place and be done with it in one step...
« The pre should pass the toast to the amp without topping, it should only make the toast bigger and heavier ( preamplifying the signal) thats it, then the amp puts the topping we want «. |
I bet that preamplifier can equal the arc for 23k less... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0410/coincident_statement_line_stage.htm
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I agree that this thread needs lower priced gear to be compared with the big buck reference gear. Because we mostly got the point as to reference gear vs reference gear is about. But I suspect pressure from some ( dealers ?) who do not want those reference pieces compared with more affordable gear... |
Just to be sure you don t get me wrong on this. It is absolutely marvellous to have someone compared the best gear with the best gear , to know wich of what is the absolute best. Very very interesting. But some of us would like to know if we can approach that level of performance with more affordable gear. Can a Moon 740p be competitive with an ARC REF 10, or is the Coincident preamp ( has beaten a Nagra Jazz in a review !) as good as the REF 10 ?... Is the REF 40 as good as the REF 10 ( same inside design, see the pics on google) ? |
riaa, I see your point, and it is perfectly valid. I did not mean for the op to do this while loosing money acquiring bad resale value gear, but by borrowing ( or loaning maybe, if the op wants it) that more affordable gear...as he seems to have a lot of good contacts in the industry ( much more than I have). Comparing the top best with top best is fun, but will most probably lead to this thread’s death because at this level the differences get smaller and smaller...so the same song will mostly play again and so on. That applies mostly to preamps and amps. With speakers, the thread can evolve a little more but how much... |
wc, Could you please describe how the sound of the REF10 is so much better than the Sim 740p. Is it tubey midrange warmth, is it resolution ( normally one of simaudio strength), is it prat or transcient attacks, or just the soundstage which is bigger ( tube strength) ? |
Robert S.Youman from Positive Feeback writes in it's review of the ARC REF6 that as good as it is , it was still bested by the preamp analog section of his Devialet 800.................?? All these years of research by arc, all those tube design, bested by a digital all in one solution !.... Now I'm confused, just don't know what to believe anymore. |
On Audioaficionado, someone compared an ARC REF6 pre with a Mcintosh C2600, and said there is nothing to write about that makes the REF6 more than 2x the price of the C2600... So I don't know it you guys are comparing the ARC preamps to welding machines, but I just don't get why all this fuss about them...
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Hmmm guys... If the McIntosh preamps suck that much compared to ARC, how come the top big Mac rigs with their top monoblocks at audio shows sound so darn good... I have never eard any bottleneck effect at the numerous shows I have gone to. I mean Mac is using its preamps on those rigs, not ARC preamps. If their pres would suck so much as you say, don’t you think we would easely be earing that huge bottleneck effect at shows or at dealers.The word would spread if that were the case. SO in that regard, you guys are exagerating the différences, or else it would be known and obvious all over the place that Mac preamps are just the Bose of preamps... They cannot demonstrate their top gear with sub-par performance preamps , it is mostly impossible...they must have something very good that matches their high end amplifier performance. We are not talking about speakers here , but about preamplifiers... a piece of gear that passes the signal from one to another piece of gear ! |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmn4UX1fpU You seriously want me to believe that if you swap the Mac preamp in that rig in the video above, with a REF6 from ARC...that the sound will be transcended so we'll all pis. on the floor. Come on. Maybe change the speakers for big Wilson or big Verity Audio or I dont know...maybe that will transcend the sound ...but the pre come on guys. |
guido, McIntosh gear is not the same as it was 10 years ago. They are offering much more for your money these days, incredible value. They have not followed the Ayre, Arc and Pass insane prices raise. And that comes from someone with a Luxman M-900 Ultimate sitting in the living room, one of the best ss amp of the moment at any price.
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Listening at concert level do damages your earing. So wc may not me getting all the sonic nuances at normal listening level, maybe we should take his reviews with a grain of salt then. That could explain his fascination for ever going more bass...
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Belcanto. Ok I’m biased towards no ARC. Lol
Those Wilson will sound marvelous, it’s a shame they made them so ugly looking though.
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Just the fact that the Bel Canto Black or the best Devialet all in one rig, is competing with the pre+amps of this caliber prooves my point all along...
...wich is that you don t need a 30k REF10 huge two box design with tubes inserted in the Bel Canto Black pieces to reproduce the best sound... so please give the Mcintosh latest full rig owners a break when saying it s not in the same league as the rest of ultra high end stuff. |
As you said , the Bel Canto black preamplifier asc1 chassis is replacing the REF10... And is competing equally with it...
Did you see a pic of the guts of the asc1 black preamp.... Compared to the REF10....
Preamplifiers have evolved, just like dacs. Some rare brands and audiophiles acknowledges this , some other keep snobing that fact with ref10, kxr 20, pass x, etc.
I rest my case.
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5 hours a day at concert level, ouch. Still I`m reading the thread ( wich is a very good thread nonetheless) . Well, it takes what it takes. |
@joeinid , I encourage you to get the Lux M900u. Sure your Dagostinos M400 are little jewels. But the Lux is an exceptional piece among exceptional amps. It ´s internal is out of this world craftsmanship. Gold plated pure copper 3d circuit boards, rectangular solid core transformer wire, pure copper bus bars, ...
And the sound, wow , can t describe all of its refinement and body...it s magical, its impossible to write into words. Something that has to be experienced.
You are alerady one of the luckiest audiophiles to own the C900u, a truly exceptional pre. I do beleive the M900u is even more exceptional than the pre. You would own the full pair, a lifetime audiophile achievement. |
I agree with whitecamaross. Sim amps are very good, a little bit expensive ( don t forget they are entirely build in Canada) but very good. But with digital, Sim is not competitive anymore as it used to be in the early to mid 2000s. Wc, do you still have the Lux M-900u, and if so may I ask why do you keep it as you seem to be going the Hegel or Sim/Pass route. |
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Wc, as good as the Lumin S1 is , it is still based on Sabre 9018 chip...wich is very good but in my experience is beaten by top dacs out there.
The reason I gave you the APL DSd-SR hint, is because that dac has been compared to DCS Vivaldi, MSB select, Ayon S5, and it was clear the APL was the better dac...more analog...the nearest sound to vinyl. So I can be pretty sure it will best your S1 and the Dave.
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First setup wins imho. Second setup weakest link is DS dac. Plus you got Luxman synergy going on between DA08 dac and C900u pre, which were voiced to be paired together. |
I smell a Gryphon power amp. coming in... Or maybe 2 x Luxman M-900u in mono configuration. Hmmm, maybe a Boulder power amp. |
Hmmm, Luxman (or Gryphon) and Benchmark should not be allowed to be put in the same sentence on this amplifier thread. JNITSL just not in the same league |
WC you saw the light! Welcome to the world of the best digital to analog conversion. Told you some posts ago that your Lumin and DS were not sota...
Your newly acquired K1 uses top AKM chips in parallel. Who perfected that design for Esoteric some years ago? Alex Paychev. The owner of APL hi fi , maker of the dac I own ...the DSD-S.
These dacs give, among some others, the most vinyl like analog sound on market today. They reproduce more sonic nuances and an overall more organic presentation. Enjoy!
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Luxman ( founded in 1925) was making integrated when Gryphon wasn't even born. Luxman has expertise every audio company would only dream off.
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Luxman M900u amplifier has midrange to die for, it is meaty, tuby, has texture...the highs have tonal density and lots of resolution. Many audiophiles sold their tube big rig to replace it by that amp.
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I don’t think his taste is to the very warm side. Like me, he likes to listen loud and my experience is you cannot listen loud when your system or speakers are aiming just a tad on the bright side...even sometimes on the neutral side makes listening at loud level for long period of times very fatiguing. Specially if you like brass like trumpet, or alto saxophone played loudly. |
Maybe that’s what happens when you realize 2 monos amps don’t really sound better than 1 stereo amp in your system. Or it ´s just obsessive compulsive disorder, I know I have it also.
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I smell a pair of Alexandria coming soon. Or a pair of Raidho.
Just a feeling.
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Very nice review indeed. Like shadorne, I think maybe you should try something like a pair of Sopra 3. My feeling is they would make you ear more of the recording ( sonic nuances, resolution). |
WC , if it were me I would not get the Scala Evos. The Sopras 3 have the same new Focal midrange and the same tweeter. I would save 20k. |
Can t wait to read about the Krell vs the new generations.
About the new Paradigm Persona speakers ( the passive ones) , I was curious and went to read about them a bit. Sure impressing is the technology used on the Beryllium midrange, did you see that double magnet !
I would like to try a pair on my system.
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I am not tired of reading him. Sure he has his ways, but he can do whatever he wants, it is his money and we can’t judge him. Some audiophiles are very slow movers, some are very fast movers. The rest are in between. The thread tells a lot more than the online magazine reviews that are always positive on most products...
I and the majority of us following this thread want to continue reading his feedback, even if it has flaws sometimes...the op is human he is not perfect like everybody else. Life is short, and it is much better with a thread like that than without...
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I would get the Alexia or Scala EVO instead of the ML. You already tried ML if I remember, and you seem to aim for the Wilson type of speaker dynamics. The baddest systems I’ve seen were with big rig Wilson, or top of the line B&W or Focal. |
WC, there is a pair of Verity Audio Lohengrin IIS on audiogon that appeared yesterday. Its 110k msrp speakers. Those could be your final speakers, they sure would give the spank to the Sashas...
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The new solid state preamp C52 is the beginning of a new story for McIntosh. It really can compete with the best pres out there.
I’ ve never tried their amps, but I sure the big stuff is not so far away from Pass and Simaudio. Luxman is another story.
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Ayre and Audio Research premps are overpriced big time for what they are. Luxman C-900u spank their big gun pres , for half the $.
If Mac was really mid fi, it absolutely would not have the resale value it has...
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I’ m with WC on this.
Audiophiles with experience know this, power is not refinement.
As good as the 700cx will ever be, it is a 1988 Ferrari Countach.
Luxman 900u is a 2018 Ferrari Portofino.
Technology evolution is the key word here.
audiolabirinth is suggesting change the pistons and retrofit a NOS kit on the car. Won’t transform it into the Portofino 2018.
As for the 509x, as good as this integrated is it was build to a price point ( amp section like the M700u )
M900u and its preamp brother were build with Luxman best parts and technology... not the same at all. Like a women wich you fall in love with her body...509x. The other women you fall in love with her body, and her soul too...M900u...you get the whole complete package that transcends the experience. |
A dedicated circuit with nice 14 ga is more than enough for me. Would 12 ga change the sound for the better, absolutely not in my case...I don’t care for a little bit more bass...I already got more than I need with the 14 ga wired on a second distribution panel.
Using Oyaide R1 outlet and loving it also. |
audiolabyrinth, liking vintage gear and believing it is on par with todays sota is an illusion most readers of this thread have already acknowledged... may it be digital or amplification or pre amplification.This is the reason they come here and read WC to get to know what has come to be the best by todays modern standards.
You are free to start your own in the vintage section.
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Please give us, or this thread a break... You are like someone from a car forum that keeps saying his 3 th gen is better than the 9 th gen. Nobody in the 9 th gen. section takes you seriously.
But sometimes, only sometimes, someone like WC wants to know and ear what the fuzz was all about the 3 th gen. then. But deepdown he already knows the results in advance, he just needs to experience it...to demystify the myth. To confirm his assumption.
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Your modified Krell 700cx is what I would can an audiophile abomination. As good as it will ever be, it will never be pure and will have lost resale value due to modifying... this is always a fact you can t deny.
This thread was always about modern solid state amplifiers. If you guys cannot live with the fact we are testing and discussing the latest and the best here, you can go discuss and compare your older gear ( sooner than later they will need replacement parts) all you want in the vintage section. |
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Can’t wait for your report !
No way this thing will beat the Lux, or even less detrone the Rowland 925s.
If it is neutral, you will ear your preamp through it , but will not add magic like the big guns.
Just to be clear when the report will be given, I pray to God that our little tweak friends will not go full excuses...
...hum you have to let it heat up for 36 hrs
you need a better power cable or circuit
you need to have the caps replaced
you need to have it stand on a 20 kg beryllium shelve
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