I have read this thread off and on for the last year or so in hopes that there might be an amplifier here that ultimately stood out for the test of time. And now that I prepare to take on a similar quest for the “great” amp for the speakers that I recently purchased for a basement music system. I truly do not know where to start other than to consider retubing the CAT JL3’s that I have sitting on the sidelines.
The OP’s system changes so frequently with rarely a mention of the system’s full configuration at the time of each “shootout” that it is impossible for anybody to come away with any thoughts of what to focus one’s attention. From reading this thread, I would conclude that the OP spends more time packing, unpacking, shipping, receiving, connecting. disconnecting, etc., audio equipment than the time spent listening to music. And how long does a component ever “equalize” in the listening environment after it is unpacked? With temperature and humidity differences between the shipper’s vehicle and warehouse, and seasonal influences, having newly arrived electronics sit in the listen room for several hours before powering on is simply common sense. Taking a box just received after an across-the-country or overseas shipment, unpacking the component and then immediately powering it on is simply asking for trouble!
A few weeks ago, the OP wrote, “I’m very selective and know what each component can do. “
This is interesting as I have had the Aria WV5 XL preamp for 10 years now and I still don’t know all that it can do! With a new TT/Arm after owning the last one for 18 years, I have discovered how incredible the MM and MC stages are in the WV5 vs. how I felt when I received this unit. Awe yes, the incremental system changes since then.
And also from the OP: “I am blessed to have enough credibility after writing here for last few years.”
Unless I am missing something, I don’t see any credibility in making such generalizations such as this amp has the “best bass” or it destroyed amp Z, the most lethargic speakers I ever heard, the sound was fatiguing that I could not listen any more, etc., etc., without giving the reader a full description of the system (including ALL cables) at that point in time. And certainly not to make such conclusions after just an hour or so after inserting it into one’s system. The jaw-dropping moment that occurs upon first hearing a component or a system is all too frequently gone an hour or day later. When you can listen to your system for hours and hours on a regular basis, and can’t turn it off, that’s an achievement that no jaw-dropping event can ever surpass. But for a system always in flux, this can never be achieved.
And what about the speaker you loved so much 2 months ago? How might it sound today with the new line stage you are now using vs. the one you had when you “rated” that previously awesome speaker the “best”? Maybe it will now have the best bass you ever heard in your system?
A number of problems, that I face every time I try a new component or even move a component, are not addressed much if at all by the OP. What about warm up time? Does the amp need a half hour, 4 hours, all day, etc., to truly come to life? Is it economically sensible to own “this” amp if it draws a lot of idle power and needs to be on all the time? Or one advantage of such an amp is that it sounds incredible after just a short warm up time? Powering down both amps to be compared and then re-powered the next day and do some evaluations as to which one sounds awesome in a short time. Do I really want to wait until 11pm for my beloved amp to sound good, or do I keep it on all the time while I receive electric bills that cause such entirely different jaw-dropping moments?
Did the amp audition include trying different ICs between the line stage and amp? Were different speaker cables tried or other power cords into the amp? My experience in building audio systems is that the most crucial cable in the system is between the line stage and amp. All other cables can and do make significant changes, but they are way down “the influence chain” from this crucial link. Just as the OP writes about an amp “destroying” another amp, I can very easily destroy all the 3D magic of that system by simply inserting in that link any number of “crappy” ICs that have gotten rave reviews. That for the OP will likely be another jaw dropping moment.
And yes, power cords can make a substantial improvement. The Dream State Dream Catcher is one power cable that is crazy incredible no matter where I have tried it. As the OP claims a $5k power cord is ridiculous, but wouldn’t someone with that mindset also think that a preamplifier (ARC Ref 10) at $30k for example, to also be ridiculous? After all, it’s just a stupid box that switches line sources and provides for level control? Just as I can buy a $9 power cord from Home Depot, I can buy a source switcher/volume control for $100 on ebay.
Has one’s system which has been optimized for much detail now become almost unlistenable because the amp “under review” has the same attributes/signature? ….. too much of a good thing or bad thing? Or does this amp’s detail bring on a good balance between the warmth, decays, etc., with the rest of the system that has been assembled up to that point? Dismissing a product at a given time is often because it simply does not mate well with our system at that moment and not because another product is better or the best. It’s not about synergy, which is such a lame word here…it’s about personal preferences and compromises that we all must make with one set of pros/cons of the product under evaluation to the product currently in the system.
And I don’t buy into the claim that one must use all components from one brand. I have assembled too many systems (phono, line, amp) of multiple brands that result in far more magic than what I heard from the one brand.
What about the issue of system disruption. Every time components are moved on the equipment rack, cables are being disconnected/re-connected, re-routed, under, over, across, others, including power cords, along, under, components. And when all is ready to be powered on with the listener all relaxed on sofa with remote volume in hand ....... damn ……….. hum! This is more frequent that would be expected. Some effort to re-route cables nearly always resolves the problem within an hour or so, but still it’s a reality and a major pain. Simply dropping a “new” amp into the rack is not quite as easy as the OP makes it sound - well not from my experiences anyway. Having the amp in it’s own “semi-environment” such as between the speakers allows for easier change and less disruption to the rest of the system setup. But still, doing this what looks to be daily, would result in never getting a chance to optimize the system as it is at any one moment.
And then there’s the issue of power conditioners. The OP stated last week, “Update: the c900u and m900u components need to be connected to the wall. DO NOT CONNECT THEM TO A STUPID POWER CONDITIONER OR POWER REGENERATOR. I did this and they lost magic. Now they are connected into the wall and they are back to sounding huge.”
A reference to which conditioner used here would have put the statement into context. But one easy conclusion to be made here is that no conditioner can possibly work with these products, or perhaps no conditioner with any amp. Again, component and system context is crucial here if the writing is to provide any value other than “I did this, I did that”.
I have little experience experimenting with power amps into conditioners, and certainly I have no interest to “play” with a stupid conditioner. The CAT JL3’s that I have had for many years were always plugged into the wall. But after trying many conditioners and discovering the awesome (killer value) Running Springs (RS) Haley for the preamp and sources, I did a little reading about the RS Duke conditioner that was designed to be used with amps. I still am curious to try one of these. But one thing I will never do is to conclude that any or all conditioners will result in the same outcome. Now that would be stupid.
Another challenge I see for the OP is to try to achieve top-notch musical performance while wrapping in all the other required components for a home theater setup. This out of the gate is riddled with compromises. It can take years and years to achieve a music system with awesome dimensional results. This for many is what putting together a musical system is all about. But a home theater is more about frequency extremes and dynamics. Speaker placement, such as putting them way out into the room for music can be ultra critical whereas for Home Theater, the sound effects we are after here can be achieved with little or no effort. And all the extra electronics, cabling, surround speakers, subwoofers, etc., all over the room can affect the magic we achieved with our music system before all this HT crap was added. I tried this and I simply could not achieve what I wanted for either music or HT, and thus back to two systems. For many people out there, only one room is available for all of this and such compromises must be made. John
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I did not mean to imply that this thread is a scam or joke. I was simply stating that this thread would/could provide value/ideas as to what amps would ultimately be on a "must audition" list. And yes, absolutely this is the OP's thread. There was entertainment from reading this but after awhile it's much the same as 3-6 months before. However, once the OP stated that much of his effort would result in conclusions that other members would not have to go through the same effort, well, that's where things fall apart. Such a process needs to be taken to an altogether different level for this to be valid. For a member to have the financial resources to try multiple amps and/or multiple speakers at a time is a privilege that few members will have. To go all out to find the ideal location for each speaker, with the amp(s) that make it play magic and to document other system changes, e.g., cable swaps, that were necessary to get this magic for each speaker and/or amp. Mark the locations in the room (with painters tape) for each speaker. Lots of work here. And when finally setup, live with a configuration for a day or more. DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING NO MATTER THE TEMPTATIONS! Don't let jaw-dropping moments take over your senses; simply document the observations. Then roll out another amp that sounded good with these speakers and live with this for a day or more. A final/quick return to the previous amp to confirm the most recent observations would seal the opinions here. And get those quickly documented. When it's time to change speakers, roll in another pair, at there designated locations as marked by the tape, rinse and repeat. Such a report would be awesome for the one doing this work and also to the readers. This would be far more value than changing something multiple times a day and/or every week or month. And no obligation to report anything specifically because the employer needs to sell advertisements. But again, yes. it is his thread. At least he's having fun and that's cool. Once I get ahold of a 3m IC to be able to relocate the current amplifier (Symphonic Line RG 11) to be between the SF Amati Futura speakers, an amp shootout will be in order. A likely start will be with newly re-tubed JL3's and then look to try a pair of Plinius 102, Magnus 500, Boulder 1060, Karan 1200/650, Soulution 511, Classe Omega. Any other suggestions for high current amps to be auditioned would be greatly appreciated. John |
jafant - It's been 13-14 years since I did any serious amplifier comparisons. This was for the Sound Labs A1 speakers that I purchased back then. The CAT JL2/JL3 amps got my attention because of their incredible dynamic contrasts. The Atma Sphere amps had a little more of that lower mids lush sound, but I knew I could capture that back with tube rolling in the preamp, the Aesthetix Io and Calisto Signature phono/line stages. After I optimized this "preamp" with selective tubes to pair with the JL-3 amps to achieve a good balance of tonal coherency, 3D and resolution, I was loaned a CAT Ultimate preamp (loaded with Sovtek tubes) from a CAT dealer for a month. Even with the various tube rolling efforts from a prized stash of Telefunken, Mullard and Amperex tubes with the Ultimate, I could not get the same result that drew me into the music like I had achieved with the Aesthetix. There was no doubt that the CAT Ultimate had greater extension at the frequency extremes and greater clarity/detail on the top; the Ultimate was clearly the more neutral preamp....but I felt that it was just a bit too dimensionally flat for my taste. Here was another example where the "synergy" of products from the same company did not work out. It has been a long time that I heard the CAT preamps, including the Legend which has been out for many years. However, it is the CAT JL amps product line that has gotten unanimous praise over the years. I will begin the effort to find a solid state amp to play magic with the Futuras that hopefully will get me away from running with so many tubes (16 power tubes per JL3). And of course to determine how any given solid state amp performs with the A1's which I still have, but have since been upgraded to the latest back plates. So we will see. I had dinner with a couple of audio guru guys two nights ago, and one of them said, "once we get to a level of 'top-level components', it's fairly easy to achieve resolution, but it is not at all easy to achieve the 3D in the musical performance; it takes much more effort of room tuning, component matching and to find those few components that can truly pull this off." I could not have agreed more. And now back to our regularly scheduled program, McIntosh Bashing. |
Even 50% off a pair of ICs and speaker cables at $46k would not be something I would ever be able to justify, much less brag about. The OP has written, huge massive outrageous, all the way to the parking lot size soundstage.
More relaxed sounding but almost too laid back.
has all the ingredients but I feel it could be a synergy thing with my Wilsons and ref10. They just don’t seem to get along. I can probably use a bright amplifier at this time in order to throw more highs.
Or perhaps look for a radio Shack graphical equalizer on ebay! JUST KIDDING! I know that ARC made a big change to their house sound at the turn of the century. The pre-2000 or so top ARC preamps were always a very bold projection out into the room with great dynamics rather than being more focused at and behind the speakers like the Counterpoint, BAT, Aesthetix and Aria that I have owned since my ARC days in the 80s/90s. But even now, it's hard for me to imagine any ARC preamp as being mellow, especially "too mellow". And clearly in all the systems I have heard with Wilsons, including those at audio shows with ARC electronics, the result was never mellow. So I highly doubt there is a "synergy" issue between these two. It seems as if the sound opens up to the sides but doesn’t come at you.
Your observation is a dimensionality problem and not a tonality problem. Throwing a "bright" amplifier into the mix will not likely "solve" your concern here and will likely cause listener fatigue rather quickly. I would like to offer you an opportunity to try something besides a preamp, amp or speaker change. I have a 4-feet XLR Silent Source Reference IC that is just sitting on the sidelines because my current DAC only has single-ended outputs and all my current amps only have single-ended inputs. This cable company is only one of 3 that I have tried in the last 15 years, between a preamp and amp, that brings on a system's 3D ability AND does not botch up the tonal coherency or detail capability of that system. Ultimately I will want this back as it will almost certainly be used when I go with an external phono stage or update the DAC to the next level in the coming years. But for now, you can play with this IC pair, for weeks or months, and I suspect this could very well change some of your observations. It shouldn't cost more than $25 or so to send these each way. Please let me know if you're interested. John |
Send me a note with your address to my account here and I can get the cables out tomorrow. It's actually 5 feet long (1.5m) and very flexible so things won't need to be so tight.
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Thank you rs507. @ rsf507, your statement is extremely inadequate!, the muse cable system is new technology, the cable's was just introduced this year! Hmmmm, every time I see an "as seen on tv" gadget, it's "new technology". they kill the shunata z-tron anaconda speaker cable's and interconnect's that they replaced!
Now there's a surprise....a Tara Labs "killed" a competitor's cable in audiolabyrinth's system. Really? I am saying what I hear, I am very impressed, believe me, that is hard to do. It is hard for you to say that you're impressed with a Tara Labs product? I agree with techno_dude here. The OP has clearly stated that he will look into adding/updating a circuit to 20A when his electrician is available and to also put in an audio-grade outlet. He is not interested in $46k or $23k or even $10k in ICs, speaker cables and a power cord. And if an amplifier does not mate well with his existing electrical service, then he stated he will find one that does. For me, when I learned what a great match the CAT amps were with the Sound Lab speakers, I knew I would go with these amps but that dedicated circuits for these would be required. And this was simple as the breaker box was conveniently located in the basement room where I had setup the audio system. It took a couple hours for a friend to put in two more 20A breakers, 8' 10ga lines down to a new outlet installed into the wall on each side of the breaker box. But this is an atypical situation for most people as they do not have the option to update their electrical service, and if they do, not so easily For such people, they must design an audio system that their electrical service can support rather than to redesign their electrical service around their ideal audio system. And I must disagree with a post here that was made some days ago that the OP should ignore the purists here. One of the greatest strengths of these forums is to have people with many different experiences share what worked or did not, products to consider, etc. |
audiolabyrinth - Many members have pointed out to the OP the importance/requirement for him to update his electrical service during his journey to review amplifiers here. And he has already stated that he is looking to get this addressed. So you don't need to assume that point was never made.....it's now universally understood/agreed upon here. |
WC, please use caution with room correction. I am sure all such devices are not created equal, but when I tried the RIVES device some 10+ years ago, it ultimately resulted in more damage than benefit.
I had three strong bass nodes all between 70 and 250 Hz with Soundlab A1 speakers a bit too close to the back wall and corners. After measuring the frequency response with a test tone CD and sound level meter, I was able to plot out the data and then set the RIVES device accordingly. The unit did exactly as required as the overloading bass energy was nearly gone. However, what also was gone were the forever decays and rich harmonic overtones that I had worked so hard to achieve with cable and tube optimization in the DAC, preamp and amps.
A friend came over and said in a matter of seconds that the RIVES had to go. And with his help to suggest removal of some unneeded furniture and lamps, we were able to pull the speakers another couple of feet out into the room .... and this made a huge difference to reduce two of the bass nodes and cut the third at about half. This was acceptable; further room treatments later on with ASC products helped even more. And all the magic I had worked to achieve was back.
For a HT setup, benefits from such a room correction device would like outweigh the losses. But for music, I highly doubt it. It takes years and years to get the 3D to a high performance level in a room / musical system and only a matter of seconds to destroy it. Maybe the Lyngdorf device will cause less destruction...but I'm willing to bet it will ultimately need to come out once you realize vocals, piano, saxophone, etc., are significantly flattened. It will demote the Ref10 to an LS2. |
Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe he changed his mind and bought Bose 901's. |
WC, based on your past reports with larger speakers overwhelming your room, I wish you had chosen the Sopra 2. I suspect the 3 will overwhelm your room as well.
I heard the 2 last month against the SF Futuras in a huge 20x25x10 room with both speakers 10+ feet apart. The Sopra 2 were amazing and fun. Much boogie factor. Oh my I loved it. Not at all the refinements or clarity of the SFs but I immensely liked the Sopra 2 . After hearing the 2, a return to the SFs was so mellow. I would love to own both! I don't recall another time where I heard two very different speakers and that I liked both so much.
I can imagine the Sopra line to be an awesome fit based on your comments and I suspect it's not so picky about amplifiers like the SFs. But the 3's bass will likely be too much for you after hearing the 2 pump out so much energy in the large room. |
dep14: Cables... ah... if someone can explain to me how a $5000.00 power cord makes a bit of difference for that last 3 feet after the electricity has traveled MILES, then you should be using those sales skills to make some bank selling a product that can get you paid well. There's no need for anyone to explain anything. Designers often can not explain many things, but through trials of different active and passive components, materials, implementation layout, etc., differences are indeed heard. Try out a few power cords. I suggest at the preamp, DAC and power conditioner, and determine if you hear any benefits to one product vs. another. If not, that's cool. Speakers/Room
Source
Amp
Best be spending 90% of your budget there. Typically there are 2 cables at each system component, a power cord and an output cable, either digital, IC or spkr cable. To limit the expense of these 2 cables at about 10% of the cost of their associated component is an arbitrary and potentially devastating to the system design result. But once again, if it works for you that's cool. |
Luxman has been retired from my system since I had to trade all the pieces in as part of my deal with the Magicos. I must say this is surprising and sad to hear. After all the enjoyment you have had with these, all your praise, ranking the Luxman as #2 being the Rowland amps, and now sending them out to pasture for the sake of trying another speaker? In your room, they portrayed space like nothing else you have recently heard. This trait is the most difficult to achieve and now you’re starting all over yet again? |
I suspect WCSS is more likely to eat a can of cat food than to buy a McIntosh product. |
There is a lot of speculation going on with many people here not having much experience with the products WCSS is evaluating. "I think it's going to be this, I think it's going to be that". It's not so simple as measurements, sealed vs. ported cabinets, or reviewers' comments. I read the Stereophile John Atkinson reviews of the Sonus Faber Futuras and the Magico S5 II. He talks about the Magico requiring the user to be seated in a very specific ear level for the speaker to truly be appreciated. He says a similar thing about the Futura but not as critical here. When I heard the SF's last month at a dealer's huge room, I could walk all over the room, laterally and closer and farther from the speakers. The presentation was magnificent no matter where I was. But when switching to the Focal Sopra 2's, the sweet spot was very tight; moving just a little to the left or right and the differences were significant. And both pairs there were much farther apart than WCSS will be able to accommodate. Image placement and dimensionality were poor with the Focals. But they were fun to listen to. This is a speaker WCSS can "blast" for his rock music and HT sources. But a refined product it is not. Ultimately I would rate the Sopra as midfi but it is by far the most fun midfi speaker I have heard. The Sopra 3 will be much the same but with even more bass energy that certainly will overpower his room as the Sopra 2's, at a third out into the room, 5-6 feet from the side walls, easily filled the 20x25x10 dealer room. That was what impressed me so much. If you want to go with one speaker for music perfection and also for HT dynamics, especially in a smaller room, I don't think any of these are going to work for you more than a few days. You need to put all your focus on the new room, including 2-3 dedicated circuits, and then restart your quest for the speaker that does it all. The only speaker that I have heard so far that does this and is not an insane cost is the Sound Lab line. The comparably priced Magnepans or Martin-Logans don't even come close. Oh, and how are the Silent Source interconnects working out for you? |
Also the performance niggles that I point out are minor and irrelevant to most people except someone (WCSS) who has tried 30+ high end amplifiers and is replacing an already very good speaker (Vivid G1)! Really? I need to go through a boat load of 100+ lb amps and speakers over a 6-month period to understand the relevance of the minor differences brought on by changing such products? Many of the differences WCSS describes between amps and speakers I can achieve simply by changing of a pair of tubes in the line stage, phono stage, DAC, amp input, etc. SOTA in a 11x14 room like mine would be a much smaller speaker like a Giya 3 or the Magico S3Mk2 that I have.
Or maybe even a NOLA Contender at a fraction of the Magico price?
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Oh my no. You must try everything. Each of these have pros n cons. There is no winner takes all here. |
I would not think of such an event as "further" but rather "differently". |
Lots of great comments this morning. Charles is right on about piano. Piano music is where I always start to evaluate the naturalness and musicality of a system, not only of a speaker. But only after a long time living with all the components in a given system, and then a single component swap, preamp, speaker, IC, etc., can one determine the "right or wrong direction of accuracy". No matter what, there's almost always give and take when we finally must make a choice of what we have and what we consider to replace it. +1 David_ten indeed.
WC has come a long way from emphasis on blasting to enjoying music at a more relaxed level. When we discover/experience this "change", we have finally assembled a system that was unlike anything we experienced before in our home.
There is far too much focus here on which is superior - Magico or Focal. From all I have read, the Magico is very much in the same camp as the SF Futura for which I own. And as I reported here before, after hearing the Futura and Sopra 2 at a huge Chicago dealer showroom, I wanted them both, and yet they were not at all similar in how they portrayed the music. Never before have I enjoyed two speakers so much in a "competitive" setting. But they are each ideal for different kinds of music. So far the only speaker I have heard in my home or elsewhere that is outstanding for all genres of music is the big Sound Lab.
And like the Magico, the Futura needs a lot of power to get the woofers going. I have not found an amplifier yet to do the magic in my room like I heard at the dealer......not even close. Had I not experienced that at the dealer, and instead I simply had a pair sent to me to try, I would have no idea their capability. So I am on the hunt to find the right amplifier here. WC will likely need to sweat a little as well to find amps to do the same with the Magico. May I suggest you look into the Symphonic Line Kraft amplifiers. I know I know, everyone is telling you try this or that, it could be your last. But the big SL amp(s) might truly do it for you.
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My friend also mentioned that for sure the focal seemed to have more midrange than the magico which I agree but lets keep in mind that the magico is about balance and not to boost any frequency over the other. Exactly exactly exactly. I came away with this same feeling of the Futura vs. Sopra 2. We become so impressed by the greater clarity, tonal coherency, a multitude of refinements brought on by the more costly speaker, but a return to the Sopra and it's so easy to forget all about that. I would not be surprised to own both as I liked them so much almost equally. Just comes down to the music genre and music vs. HT application. |
The King is a full range stat, with narrow tweeter panels and larger lower freq panels. It is superior because the panels are not curved, so there is no roll-off of the highs and the time smearing of curved designs like Martin Logan and Soundlab. To imply that the SoundLab panel rolls off the high frequencies because of it's curved design is ridiculous at best. As an SL A1 owner for 10+ years, I have played with a multitude of amps, tube and ss with these speakers and I have upper frequency extension and clarity that few, very few, dynamic speaker systems can even begin to touch. The Stax and ML models, flat or curved I heard at that time were too analytical and boring compared to the SL. After hearing all the great speakers many many times at the Newport shows, there were a handful that resulted in outstanding performance. But a return to the SL room, even with the dealer using mid-fi electronics (ugh!), there was an immediate sonic quality (clarity) to be heard that simply stood out. If time smearing occurs as is claimed by viber6, I don't know how the clarity can be so impressive. I highly doubt that SL would continue to build these products after decades when they started with flat panels if time-smearing was their observation. I suggest a read of the link here where the SL geometry is discussed about segmented design of faceted panels vs. curved panels. https://www.soundlab-speakers.com/geometry.html The A1 can fill a large room with impressive dynamics and low frequency .... and at a designer-spec'd 89db sensitivity. A high current 125w ss amp such as the small Symphonic Line RG11 amplifier can drive the A1's to easily fill my 24x18 room to mid 90s db level before any hint of clipping is heard. Double the amp's power here would certainly be beneficial for some material. For the KS speakers at 83db sensitivity, we are looking at 2-3x the required power and that quickly gets insanely expensive. A recommended 100-200w amp here is laughable unless these are to be played in a bedroom and the focus is talk radio or your collection is all folk music. The A1 like the SF Futura can be enjoyed across a wide width of seating positions. The many Acoustat and ML electrostatic speakers that I heard lacked this "quality". I suspect the KS will have a similar if not the same problem. And the same with the Focal Sopra 2, but that is a fun speaker, not analytical at all. So if you don't want to keep your head in a vice while seated, to hear a refined presentation, I would tread carefully with electrostatic recommendations. |
The most neutral amp I’ve owned was the boulder 2060. It just didn’t have any soul... Neutrality often results in this. And, neutrality aside, I suspect your 15A circuit driving your entire system never gave the Boulder a chance to come alive. A neutral amp would be my top choice if it could drive my speakers to their full capabilities. I can add all the necessary magic (desired tonal colorations, 3D, etc) to the system by carefully selecting the sources, line stage and speakers....and not botch it all up with cabling. Did you ever drop in the Silent Source ICs? |
When you have to roll tubes to make your 15k BHK monoblocs sound better............wow! My wallet will be emptied by something else. Interesting statement here. Over the years, one of the first things I have done when I bought a tube line stage, phono stage, amp or DAC, was to give the product a listen for a few hours. And then I would make note of the tubes in the audio and PS sections. Over the course of days I would try a multitude of different tubes in each of the positions. For over 30 years, I have ALWAYS been able to make dramatic improvements in lowered noise, tonal coherency, higher resolution and most notably, portrayal of space with one or more tube swaps. This was for numerous ARC products, Counterpoint, BAT, CAT, Aesthetix, Wolcott, VAC, Aria, APL, Lampizator. And the cost to do this was often insanely cheap at less than $100 to replace the junk stock tubes. The cumulative results from this effort can take a system to a level that quite frankly will never be heard at a dealer or a show setup where the gear is loaded with the crappy stock tubes. Of course, component manufacturers must stock their new products with these available tubes, but there is no reason for the consumer to be locked into using these tubes. And to claim tube rolling will alter the sound for the worse as the product was voiced with the stock tubes, well, that's about the most stupid argument I have ever heard from the opponents of tube rolling. So before one slams the efforts made by others to take a product to a much higher performance level with tube rolling, I suggest they give this a try themselves .... or to just stay with solid state products. |
Oh my, I love the Amperex 7308. But my fav of this tube family (6922, 6DJ8, .u..) is the Amperex 6922 PQ Pinched Waist. Wow, so rich and lush but insanely expensive to find nowadays. I have had great success with tubes from Andy and Kevin.
Fortunately, with a flip of a switch, my preamp can run 12V tubes in the line stage and the RCA 12BH7 takes the unit to a level of musicality way beyond any 6V tube. And they are cheap compared to the NOS 6V tubes.
After hearing what these older tubes can do, there is no way I could ever tolerate the new tubes of today. |
People often think that since the woofers have their own amp the power amp won’t affect the sound, but the internal amp is amplifying the signal your power amp is sending to it, which, as I’m sure you know, is different for each amp. Now that's a goofy design.....to drive the woofer's amp from the main system power amp! The ML hybrid speaker does not provide a line level input to directly drive the woofer's amp? This would seriously limit the amps that are usable here as I could find a tube amp that might be magical with the panels but does not have the greatest definition in the bass and thus would affect the powered woofer's performance. No thank you! |
Audio engineering is the most primitive of all engineering fields, unlike aerospace, IT, etc. The brightest engineering graduates go into fields other than audio. The typical audio designer never took advanced math, or is mostly a hobbyist with a smattering of technical training WOW! This has to go down as nearly the most arrogant/stupid paragraph I have ever read on this site. |
Cables in order of which has more effect on a rig:
1_ Power cables.
2_ Interconnects.
3_ Speaker cables. My experience again and again indicates that the MOST critical cable in the system is the IC from line stage to amp. On your line stage, replace your power cord with a $20 power cord from Home Depot. Yes, there should be some noticeable losses. Next, put your power cord back here and replace your IC here to the amp with one from Home Depot. The result will be a disaster, i.e., a total loss of spatial information, harmonic information and decays.....if your system was ever capable of these going into the test. |
but have you personally heard the effect on large panel speakers (electrostatics or Maggies) in small rooms? These large panels have deficient bass anyway, so room correction yields less benefit than when applied to large dynamic speakers with much more bass. The problem with large panels is lousy imaging and bloating effects, in all except huge rooms. WHAT?????? The above quoted paragraph has so many generalizations that don't match at all to my experiences of owning Magnepan and SoundLab speaker for the better part of 20 years. I know you make all these claims of time-smearing with the SoundLab and I won't even go there as your experience with these products is clearly limited to what you have read about or what you heard in a show room. But let me educate you that the SL speakers have a bass output to rival many dynamic speakers with similarly claimed bass response. If you did not hear this, then that was the fault of the amp(s) driving them, or a poorly implemented system elsewhere. I have reported here before that in my basement room, there were considerable bass nodes that were measured....three of them below 250 hz. A Rives PARC unit did an outstanding job to take care of this and bring the bass back into check. But it also destroyed the musicality of the system to clock-radio performance. Any bandaid system such as this will have similar results. We talk about the simplicity of our preamps and amps, with minimal gain stages, fewest components, the greatest volume control on earth, etc., and then we turn right around with a black box full of circuitry of IC's and mediocre passive parts and a multitude of connections and cables, and we are ok with this? .... no thanks. I brought the speakers a few more feet out into the room which resulted in a far better outcome than what the PARC had provided. Without being able to do this, the conclusion would have been that these SL's were not a good fit to this room. Oh, and I had stage placement and decays tat I rarely hear in any show rooms so I don't know where "lousy imaging and bloating" comes from; I assume it's from what you have read or hear in a setup for which you are unfamiliar. With the SL's on one side of the 18x23x8 upper floor room of my home, the bass energy is as good as I could ever ask for with music. Unless I need to hear low frequency computer generated special effects from HT sources, which are often best served by subwoofers, I will take the SLs' bass performance and tonal coherency any day over a dynamic speaker. |
Ha! You gotta love this thread. With all the miles and miles of claims that the D'ag would destroy blah blah blah, here we have ONE SA-103 (recently many for $3k each on the used market) matched with the Ref10 essentially destroying the D'ag. WC, if you like the one SA-103, try a second. A long time audio friend had a pair of 102's and he swore by these again and again. When he scaled down to one SA-102, he noted a drop in performance but still the sound of his system was might impressive, especially in imaging. |
WC, if the supplied power cords that came with the Block amps are not at least 12 gauge ( which I do not believe they are ), that alone, when you change them out, could be attributable to any improvement you will hear. As many of us have observed, power cord differences can be dramatic. And we often replace many stock cords in our system. But why would a manufacturer of a high performance amplifier company provide cords that limit its current driving ability? |
Interesting discussion on the Lampizator Bg 6. I have owned this for nearly 5 years now and still love it. I could not have described the performance of this product any better than grey9hound.
I tried several tubes (types/brands) in the audio section and the power supply section and found a magical match with both that took the unit far beyond how I got it with the stock tubes. I can not imagine how any solid state DAC even well into the future can touch this unit in how it portrays space, the harmonics and decays of piano and voice.
I have had no desire to update to the Big 7. Maybe the Golden Gate at it's crazy $20k price might take the trophy, but the Big 6 at $3k or so now on the used market and a couple hundred $$ of select tubes is a runaway killer musicality masterpiece. This with the Aria WV5 tube preamp running with RCA 12BH7 tubes in the line stage is pure musical bliss.
John |
Cavernous soundstage can be achieved without tubes.
Please list a few solid state DACs, phono stages, line stages and amplifiers that excel in this area. I have been using Winged C 6550s, 16 in each CAT JL-3 for many years, and they seem to last 1500 or so hours. Sadly, when they go, it's often not pretty as a new resistor needs to be soldered in. But this was true when I ran with the ARC VT130 years before. I am thinking to try KT120s in hopes for longer life and hear what the difference will be between the 2 power tubes. As for the DRs, I had a quad from previously owning a BAT 31SE, and tried these in the Aria WV5. They were no match compared to a variety of NOS 6922/6DJ8 types and totally slaughtered by the RCA 12BH7. The 6H30 tubes just don't cut it for me. But I assume they are used so heavily now in new products because of their availability through current tube manufacturers, |
I must support WC's experience with preferring the DAC into the Line Stage vs. the DAC straight into the amp(s).
Ten or so years ago I bought an APL Denon CD player with tube output. Contrary to what the designer told me more than once, I much preferred the DAC output into the Line Stage (I don't remember if this was the Aesthetix Callisto Sig or Aria WV5 at the time). The degree of spatial cues and decays alone were significantly greater with the Line Stage in the loop and with the player's volume control bypassed. I could sense a little more detail on the top without the Line Stage but this was easy to give up vs. the rest of what was lost with the DAC only. I tried this again over the course of a few weeks and never went back to using it straight into the amp.
Do our Line Stages have a better capability to drive the amp, or is the volume control of greater precision than in the DAC, or, or, or .... ? Most of us cannot likely answer this question, but what I heard was not subtle. And so the "purists" can rant all they want, but I know what I heard. And WC knows what he hears and so preaching to him to remove his Line Stage from the system indeed shows that the one saying this has no experience with such an experiment. |
And the Block Audio amps came tumbling down. Long live the king.
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I can sit here and retire with what I’m hearing right now and not miss any other amp I’ve owned. That's the greatest GREATEST feeling. I congratulate you for all your efforts and trials to finally find an amp that gets you to this satisfaction. I am there with the Line Stage, Turntable setup, amps (CAT JL-3's but I would like to scale down in tubes). However, I'm still itchy for one last phono stage update and also the DAC. Hopefully you can focus your attention on some different cable auditions, continue your DAC efforts and get an acoustics expert to your home for some advice. But I think you're close. And congratulations again. You sound very happy. And please sell me your Plinius 103 as I need two of these when I don't want to fire up the CATs for music and for serious HT usage. |
Why do so many people here get bothered when WC does not follow with their suggestions? It's quite clear that he's doing mighty fine now. Now that he has discovered the magic of tubes in the line stage and DAC and the benefits of various cables, all he has to do is work on some room layout/treatments, maybe get another dedicated circuit or two, he should be good for quite while. As for Purist Dominus cables B and C, I ran a full setup of these, ICs, phono, multiple PCs, 9-10 years ago. They were impressive in spacial cues, but detailed on the top or tonally coherent? ..... not even close! A mix with Kubala Sosna Emotions helped to improve the tonal coherency but a follow-on discovery and trials with Stealth, Dream State, Silent Source and Jade Audio cables were vastly more detailed, coherent and more natural with 3D presentations. Rather than push a highly dated Dominus, surely PAD has made much progress in the last decade with newer products. After hearing so much detail since my Dominus days, I could never go back to those severely colored cables. And Viber, you admitted that you have not heard a high performance DAC. Unless you have a high performance phono playback setup, how can you possibly have any idea the performance of the Ref6 vs. Ref10, or their competition? And unless you have directly compared the exact brand/model of single-ended vs. balanced ICs, in such a top performance system, how can you comment on the pros/cons of one type over another? A product designer knows of the benefits or compromises that one cable type may compare to the other within his/her product line. This will clearly not be universal across all components or systems. The odds are high that there is no Pass that offers better sound in most criteria than the Titan, Dag Progression monos, or even the Plinius. How in the world can anybody make such a comment strictly based on WC's experience in only 2 days in his specific system and no direct experience of their own? WHAT? Have you even heard 10% of the products you comment on here regularly? And if so, how many have you lived with for any amount of time in your own system? |
Sure there are more detailed cables than the Dominus , but there comes a point where too much is TOO MUCH.
If you can’t turn it up loud (Reference levels )and listen for extended periods before it becomes too fatiguing, then to me it ,is too much to take.
Sure it is very impressive to have Huge detail, but it gets fatiguing very quickly.I’ll take Musical over hyper detail all day AGREED. What you describe is my experience with Nordost Valhalla cables long ago. When I referred to greater detail on top with some cables vs. the Dominus, I was not talking about elevated midrange or treble levels ..... but rather resolution. And in fact the Dominus has a midrange preference which can be addicting but at a cost of resolution in this range as well as in the trebles. To move to other ICs in particular, there is a much greater presence in the silence between notes. The talents of percussionists and pianists for example, begin to show. What once sounded like a blob of singers on a stage now allows for individual distinctions of sound and stage placement. This is what I meant by detail when I moved on from the Dominus and I should have instead used the word, resolution ..... and clarity. As for being able to play at louder volumes, I can do this like I did before with the Dominus-loaded system for hours, but because of the greater refinements, I don't need to play as loud to get out the content of the performance like I did previously. |
You can make a judgment about the sonic character of preamps by using any decent source, such as phono system, or even a plain CD player playing good recordings.
Ummmmm, No! If the "decent" source is dimensionally flat, has poor frequency extremes performance, is dynamically constricted, etc., there will never be an opportunity to hear the differences of two high performance lines stages in these most critical areas. This is one example that we often don't realize how impressive components in our system can be until we resolve a weakness elsewhere, such as that dreaded "decent" source. A great sounding recording played on a modest phono or cheap CD system will sound better than an average sounding recording on the most expensive, prestigious equipment. Not necessarily. There will be pros and cons in either case. It depends entirely on the exact differences between the great and average recording and the mid-fi vs. the higher performance/resolving system. It's like saying a drive along the northern California coast and redwood forest in May in a 1971 For Pinto running on 3 cylinders would be preferred over a drive through a snow blizzard in North Dakota in January in a 911/4s. Neither of these scenarios to the vacationer or serious car enthusiast would be of any interest any more than your two scenarios above would be to an audiophile. |
My experience is also that a preamp provides the attack, dynamics, pace and decay to the line level signal that is missing when a preamp is removed.
+1 gtaphile My experience echoes this as well. I find the line stage to be the most important link in the chain...because so few models excel here. Lots and lots of great amplifiers, speakers, sources, cables, etc., but so few GREAT line stages out there. |
In your case, you have said that you like to crank your music loud, probably louder than I would listen to. This is because your electronics are rolled off in HF, compared to mine. I are saying that if your electronics had more HF balance with more resolution, you could be satisfied with reasonably loud levels a few dB lower than you currently listen at. This is all too general. Whether in the past or with my current system, I often played music LOUD simply because it sounded awesome. I wanted that extra bass presence in the room, or I just couldn't get enough of other instruments or musicians for a specific album or track. If there were times I was looking to compensate for a system's shortcomings, it was due to mediocre dynamic contrasts or some valley's in tonality, typically the lower mids or upper mids. Increasing the volume for added highs will never accomplish anything as the increased level in the rest of the band will mask anything one was looking to achieve. Guidocorona makes the most important point that the line stage makes things softer, attenuates transients, reduces resolution, all of which means euphonic, which confirms my experience. Another general statement very flawed. Guido's comments are specific to the Rowland products he was using. The result showed the shortcomings of that line stage, extra IC, PC. My experience has shown very different results. |
WC, I am curious how you had all the amplifiers powered on for over a day after your past comments of limited circuits. Did you run extension cords to other rooms to run these on other circuits or have you recently added more 20A circuits to your music room? |
Oh my gosh Viber, you're still on the Ref6 vs. Ref10 discussion? Didn't WC put this to rest or at least attempt to do so at least a dozen times now? On some music he prefers the DAC to the amp and other music he likes the Ref10 in the loop. Can't we all just accept this is what he likes? |
Viber,
You say a lot in this thread over and over and all to often you don't know what you're talking about. You have no direct experience with high performance DACs nor any of WC's equipment or anything remotely close to their performance. How can you make any judgements or critique of the Ref10's euphonics? Switching to many other preamps as you suggest will almost certainly destroy the magic that WC has achieved in this system. Been there done that with trying a ton of preamps in the 90s to the mid 2000s. It is damn difficult to achieve that magic and once you hear it, there is no going back. Time after time, a more detailed line stage is all too often a sterile line stage.
Changing to a balanced DAC guarantees nothing! 6db is not that significant compared to a preamp's output swing vs. that of a source's output....unless that source too has a significant gain stage. And all too often, the source's volume control is not of the same caliber to that in many of the top tier line stages.
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Viber, Your musical expertise is unlikely to hold a candle to mine. This is the epitome of arrogance. You have no idea what my knowledge base is on the subject material here. This thread is not about "musical expertise" but about experience and lessons learned to assemble a musical system, WC's system, which has slowly become nearly the state of the art of home systems in the last 2 or so years. My comments were not disrespectful at all. You repeatedly comment here on subjects, e.g., strengths/weaknesses of specific components, how they compare with other components and within a system, etc., that you have zero experience. A number of other members here have stated the same about your comments. Whatever equipment I haven't heard, I gain insight from WC's accurate descriptions, so my comments have validity. Euphonics as described by WC are the opposite of accuracy, which you may not value, but WC certainly honestly states the difference. Yes he does, honestly indeed, and as he states, in the context of his system in his home, with his music and his listening biases. I too gain some insights from what he shares. But his comments do not validate anything beyond all those criteria. WC has become highly respected here, but as a number of readers have stated, they have some different experiences with some of the same gear. My system too would likely be described as euphonic by some. But I don't need to be a symphony orchestra member to know the accurate sound of an instrument nor the human voice. I can go upstairs and hit keys on the piano and then go back downstairs and compare/evaluate any two components in my current system and know which implementation more closely matches the overall character of what I heard upstairs. There is a delicate balancing act to achieve tonal accuracy, low-level information retrieval, dynamics and the 3-dimensionality. That last element is the attribute that again and again is lacking in so many systems I have heard in homes, dealers and shows. Long ago I chose to initially focus on that. And since then, I have slowly worked to address the other attributes to refine my system. If I did not value accuracy, I would not have spent a good part of my income over the last 42 years to chase the experience to achieve a hint of the real performance in my home. My college Marantz 2325 receiver, BIC 980 TT and Pioneer HPM 100 speakers would likely still be in use today. Let's be honest about euphonics. It was Audio Research almost single handily that responded to the sudden sterility of sound coming from the "modernization" of audio equipment based on solid state devices. The SP3,6,8,10, all were incredibly inaccurate and yet they brought the listener back to the enjoyment of the music. As an owner of the SP-10 long ago for 8 years, I was very aware of its flaws but at that time, it was outstanding compared to its competition. I followed it with ARC line/phono stages 4 or so ARC generations later, and then ultimately moved on through 3 other product lines to achieve what I have today. The SP-10 experience has much to do with my system's performance today and it was not the detail, it was the 3D. This IS EXACTLY what WC is experiencing today. He is now working to retain this magic with some system refinements. I applaud what he has done and to not let others push him to do what he does not want to do! |
WC, another thing to research is tube rolling in the DAC. Not only can this affect a multitude of audio parameters, it can also affect the resultant gain of the DAC. Many Lampizator products support several different kinds of tube types. Upon initial purchase, for some products, the buyer can select what types Lampizator will install.
I have played with a number of different tube types and brands in the Lampi Big 6 for 4 years and the efforts have been very rewarding. Do some research on compatible types supported by your DAC, and contact the Lampizator distributor for some ideas here as well.
WC, now is the time I really wish you had my Silent Source Ref IC's again. And a Dream State Dream Catcher power cord might also knock your socks off on the Ref 10 or DAC.
Have you experimented with power conditioners at all? One very cheap thing to keep your eyes out for is a Running Springs Haley power conditioner. I tried a bunch of "conditioners" a decade ago in the $2-3k range. And then one day I tried the Haley and it significantly outperformed all I had tried before. I then took it to a friend's home. He was running a pair of Plinius 102's into updated Dunlavy SCIV's, and the detail and clarity was stunning. We inserted the Haley and it instantly outperformed his beloved Shuyata Hydra conditioner.
The Haley would be perfect for the 3-4 components in your system...less the amps of course. They are $600-800 on the used market and you could sell it for what you paid for it if it did not bring anything more to the table for you after running with it for a month or so.
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WC, The changing of the audio tubes can be very costly especially if you want to compare a few to each other. The KR PX4's are pushing $800-1000 for a pair. Also, the new Western Electric 300B is now available and these are $1400 a pair. I was about to jump on these for the VAC 30/30 amp I had but now it is sold. I suggest you send a message on the USA lampizator.com site and ask them if they have any insight as to the pros/cons of the above and others. The WE tube was a power amp tube so it may not be suitable here, but I would check. On the Lampizator europe site, here is some information about the tubes used for the Pacific: https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/ordering-pacificBe sure to ask about gain differences too. One quick and easy and cheap thing here is to play with the rectifier tube. The type stated here is 5U4G or 274B. My experiences with the Counterpoint and Aria preamps and the Lampi Big6 DAC is that rolling the rectifier tube can be a HUGE difference. Just get on eBay, and buy a few different kinds. They are crazy cheap compared to the audio tubes, and even if they are not NOS, you might get much life out of the them, or at least have them as backup when you have a failed stock tube. When I tried this process myself, I bought 3/4 different pairs and found that I much preferred the RCA version of the rectifier tube I got on eBay over the tubes that came with the Big6. Try the JAN, Sylvania, RCA, etc. They are $15-30 and they might just knock your socks off. John |
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Oh my, RIAA, what a great chuckle for the start of a new day. And thank you psnyder149 and pokey77. Keep this thread going by stating FACTS with evidence and without drawing conclusions by what you read or someone else told you. I think this is indeed what is ticking people off. Great suggestion. We will soon learn how effective your request will be. And WCSS, would you please give a short summary of the last few "top" power cords you have tried at each component, and a rating at each of those components. This might help some of us to determine if it's worth your time for us to send a PC to you for trial. And what power cord are you currently using on the conditioner? |
WC, I can relate to your exact scenario 5 years back at the So Cal "Newport" show. I spent many years optimizing Sound Lab A1 electrostatics, much tube rolling in preamp, dac and amps, tried a ton of cables, and ultimately reached magic. And then I heard the A1's at that audio show, and the dealer was using midfi gear and sources and my reaction was the same as yours. The sound was ok, clearly not nearly the worst of the show, in fact sounded better than I expected, but still, nobody going into that room had any idea the potential of those speakers. I wanted so badly to go home and bring my preamp in there which would have significantly improved the performance. Oh well. But a handful of other showrooms put on outstanding demonstrations and so it was worth it. And it is nice to finally meet and talk to some of the designers we have all read about over the years. |
Hmmmm, what is the 5th? Plinius 103? |
@keithr
Great suggestion on the CAT. 8-) I have run a pair of JL-3's on SoundLab A1s for 10+ years and love it!
My gut feeling is that the CAT's are a bit too much maintenance and geeky for WC. 16 power tubes per channel, in pure Class A, are required, and need to be matched, not cheap. And attention to the 3 small-signal tubes is required. One does not put in new Sovtek, EH, etc., tubes here. When a tube fails, the user is required to replace the 1-watt resistor associated to that tube, a process not trivial with a 150 lb amplifier. And the heat from all these tubes brings on their own set of issues.
Some people might laugh at the JL-3's output rating of 150w, but many people have reported that these amps can drive/control speakers far beyond many 500w+ amps out there that ultimately crumble with some speaker loads.
There are a few updates to the JL-3's in the last 10+ years but I would not be surprised if my older pair embarrassed the Block Audio amps driving the Neoliths. I would love to put them up against any amp(s) WC has auditioned. Sadly, the size/weight/distance (Minneapolis) makes this not likely.
John |
