Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC
Yep! 16/44 Redbook format is capable of superb sound quality . The limations were due to the playback hardware components. As this was figured out, Redbook has continued to improve and demonstrate its inherent sonic quality. Charles |
These sale prices from Shenzhen usually last a week or two. There seems never to have been a problem with Shenzhen’s safe delivery of a perfectly functioning new unit. Check posts here at about the time of the 2021 Black Thursday sale. However, there have been questions raised about Shenzhen’s return policy. See the 12-11-21 post by @pt999 and the subsequent discussion, including the decision to keep the DAC. In any event, no one here has yet reported wanting to return the DAC after trying it in their system. |
For potential buyers in the US, you may want to contact Midwest Audio to inquire whether they'd be able to match this sale price. They have posted earlier in this thread. https://forum.audiogon.com/users/midwesternaudio Midwest Audio: 574 329-1850
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There is no question, I think, but that the best of the new DACs take Redbook further than before. My own experience is that the Musetec brings Redbook closer to high resolution than did the LKS, already close. All this has generated articles on whether there's any further need for high resolution audio in our DACs. Seems to me that higher resolution is not dead just yet for a couple of reasons. I, for one, hear something special in "pure" DSD recordings, that is recordings that have not passed through any PCM processing. For me that is primarily DSD recordings taken directly from analog tapes. Yes, they're mostly rips of old RCAs and Mobile Fidelitys, but IMO they can be quite spectacular. As for new recordings, besides those that have been doing it for a while, PS Audio is now doing pure DSD recording. They probably have resources enough to make an impression on the market. And of course, SACDs are still being made, particularly in the classical field. I have carefully compared some of the Nelsons Shostakovich recordings in their Redbook and 96/24 versions and can report a slight benefit from the latter, even to these old ears. It's small, essentially spatial issues, but it's there in my experience. It's a difference we crave. In some other comparisons I have not heard a difference. Would I have been satisfied with the Musetec-Redbook alone? Certainly. It has also been said that for high resolution recordings the mastering is better, that is, done more carefully, so yielding a better sound product. Does that trickle down to the Redbook file of the same recording? I don't really know. Also, there are those who report beneficial effects using computer programs that do upsampling to the limit of their DAC, and even conversion to DSD and upsampling those also to the limit of their DAC. I'm in no position to question them. I have not done that to any extent myself. I control my music through a PC that is little more than a Chromebook. I could do it manually, but it's not worth the effort, for me. So hirez seems still to be alive, if somewhat on its heels.
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@melm I agree dsd recordings have unique sound qualities, but then mine are all best of best originally analog recorded and sympathetically mastered recordings or Blue Coast recordings.
I've continually tried at various times to incorporate dsd conversions of pcm recordings via Roon dsp, always have preferred no Roon dsp of any kind. HQPlayer dsp reportedly superior to Roon. Sublime sound quality currently experiencing lends no motivation to incorporate HQPlayer into my streaming setup.
While I've not spent a lot of time critically comparing hi res directly to 16/44, my listening sessions don't include searching for hi res recordings or even paying any attention to these particulars. I find this informative in that it doesn't bias me towards any particular format, I find no substantive differences in these solely pleasurable listening sessions. The original recording and mastering are by far the most substantial variable for sound quality. Remastering can help, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. I'd also suggest unless original recording done his res the differences you're hearing from recordings originally done in analog or 16/44, and then converted to hi res are likely solely due to differences in the mastering rather than the hi res itself. |
👍 Charles
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The ABKCO owned Rolling Stones dual layer SACDs were released around 25 years ago and then mostly their whole catalogue (the famous stuff) was released and re-released on single layer SHM SACD in Japan about 15 years ago. The Japanese releases are superior as they made for many other artists including YES, Genesis, Cream, Clapton, Steely Dan and others. There are also the SHM CDs to consider which were re-mastered in Japan around 2009. SHM CDs can sound bright on an unsympathetic system. The reason for this is back in the day it was very difficult to get the maximum info out of CDs. Nowadays even my CDs which I bought in the '80s sound great without any digital alchemy. If you own an Aurender it will unpack an .ISO file to .DSF by itself without any other software necessary. 192 kHz is really wonderful but there is an air about DSD that 192 cannot quite match. However even with '80s "Special Price" and two albums on one CD the reproduction on the Musetec is truly astounding. If I had to forego DSD and Hi-Rez I could still live comfortably. |
What side of neutral would you guys consider the 005 to be ? I have Persona 5 f ‘s dialed in right know with a Cary DMS 700 and cabling on the neutral side I had a Lumin T2 in the system and sounded fantastic for 8 out of ten songs. The Sabre Dac was just too revealing with the brighter Personas and their Beryllium tweeter and midrange. Thanks for the input
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System matching is always a critical issue. I’ve always opted for neutrality in each component if I can find it. You may be able to compensate a bit with tubes in your preamp, the same as I use. I think your focus on the DAC chips may miss the point. The difference between the Lumin and the Musetec is obviously not in the chips, though the Lumin uses a pair of 9028s and the Musetec a pair of 9038s. The differences would be in the power supplies and the analog stages and the differences are quite substantial. I would not expect these two DAC to sound anywhere near alike. Now more directly to your question. I think most people here think of the Musetec as quite neutral. With a speaker on the bright side that may present a challenge. The Cary includes a streamer; the Musetec does not. Does the Cary integrate better with your system than did the Lumin? The question may be about what you are looking for that the Cary doesn’t quite deliver? You might reread @dbb’s comparative review. Assuming you’re in the US, one thing you might do is inquire with the dealer in Indiana about a trial period. Another possibility is to communicate with Shenzhen (who are currently running a sale) with precision about their return policy. But, as I wrote earlier, no one who has tried this DAC in their system as yet wanted to return it. |
@benzman These kinds of questions are hard to answer to my way of thinking. With each of us likely having totally unique systems, generalizations hard to ascertain. Having said that, based on my experience and others, I'd say the number one or most salient feature of this dac is it's incredible resolving capabilities. Flavor is where differences may come to fore, between systems and listener's sound quality preferences come to color their evaluations. Having said that, I have yet to see someone describing this dac as warm, I'm in total agreement there. Yet, this dac not clinical or cold, and I've yet to see someone describing it in this manner as well. So what are we left with, total neutrality? Seems really bizarre that with all manner of systems, 005 seems to continually land here, makes one wonder about the actual existence of a truly neutral sounding audio component?
My take is the 005 simply resolves at such a high level it may be novelty of sudden newfound information that mesmerizes in short term. Over the long term, as one gets acclimated to hearing what was formerly omitted, we begin to ascertain flavor. Even after nearly two years of ownership and many changes within my system I continue to have great difficulty in describing some sort of overarching flavor of this dac. There was a single short lived time where I thought it somewhat analytical after what turned out to be an ill thought change. Mostly what I hear is live performers in room, actual real organic presences, not a lot of thinking or imagination required to get this sense. So, bottom line for me, extreme resolution with natural flavor, I feel no desire to even try another dac at any price.
The strangest thing about owning this dac for me is it's relatively low price of $3k. By all rights total cost of my system should call for $10k up dac, and I often feel this bias that 005 is too cheap, couldn't possibly be the best I could do, and then next listening session eliminates that thought from my mind. At some point I may have to scratch this itch and purchase $10k up dac.
Trying to bring this back to a more general sense of interest. My active pre and amps are both directly heated triode tubes, 300BSET and 845SET, way modded Klipshcorns which are extremely resolving and great pains to provide natural timbre which stock Klipsch doesn't do so well. But then I've also used 005 with more modest equipment like Schitt Saga+ pre, Prima Luna Dialogue Four push pull amp and Musical Fidelity M2SI integrated amp. I never felt extremely deprived with any of it, and never heard sins of commission. All in all, my experience and what I'm hearing from others is 005 is just fine in many different systems. Still waiting to see the first negative review. |
I thought I'd chime in here and share my opinion of this DAC. My system was just slightly to the warm side of neutral using Ayre, Pass Labs, and Verity Audio Parsifal Encore speakers. I like where it's at and find it very musical. If anything I have been looking for just a bit more transparency and resolution. I certainly did not want a warm DAC nor did I want a cold, clinical hyper revealing DAC. The Musetec DA-005 fit the bill perfectly. I would call it neutral with the ability to provide a level of clarity that revealed very subtle but noticeable details within the soundstage. The increased clarity was the most prominent change I noticed and it came without any digital nasties or stridency. I am very happy with this DAC. |
Thanks for replies @sns. I had The Merlin VSM MXR with the Master Bam . Great speaker. My buddy has a pair of Black Magic’s that he bought from Bobby about a year before he passed. They are for sale if you know anybody While chipsets may not tell the whole story each manufacture has their house sound. An AKM will never sound like a Sabre (at least not the dacs I have been thru). |
I now have many dozens of hours on my 005 and I completely agree that it provides astonishing detail and incredible neutrality that I've never heard before both streaming and playing redbook CDs from my CEC tl 1. It has been a bit of an up and down journey as the DAC settles in. I want to give it a couple more weeks of break in.
I also recently installed a cardas USB cable, the newer one with the power cable separated from the data cable. I'm also still breaking it in but it seems to be an upgrade from the XLO I had been using. |
@benzman I am very curious what did you lack in the Cary dms700 which prompted you to buy the 005 ? The Cary seems to be a very good DAC along with the streamer. Perhaps you wanted different sound ? |
Oops. No USB out on the Cary. Only SPDIF and Toslink. The Cary will output all resolutions but it looks like the 005 decodes up to 192 thru those inputs That will be fine I guess to check it out. Is anybody using coax? I wouldn’t think so. I will see if my buddy will bring his streamer over. I am pretty sure usb is a step up from the coax input. |
@car123 @benzman |
@benzman For usb cables with power leg, simply tape over power leg within connector with tape. Having said that I've not really heard any perceptible difference doing that versus leaving it connected. I use AQ Diamond usb, but then this not latest and/or may not be greatest, I've never noticed what are thought of as stereotypical coloration using silver clad copper in either ethernet or usb cables, YMMV.
I've always presumed usb input on 005 superior to others as great efforts have gone into optimizing it, don't see anything special about other inputs. At one time I had ability to use I2S, sold off Singxer SU-6 and I2S cable without ever attempting to use it, wonderful sound quality of usb gave me no cause for further experimentation.
I may be interested in the Merlin Black Magic if VSM and master bam. I've not yet tried my modded VSM with 005, Klipschorns are sort of like permanent fixtures with size and exact placement being obstacles for moving around speakers. PM me with particulars, don't want to hijack thread. |
I’ve had the 005 for about 6 weeks or so and I am looking to possibly upgrade my streamer. I run Roon and have a Nucleus as the core. I use a DCS network bridge and I was looking at replacing it with an Aqua Linq, Rockna Wavedream net, Antipodes K30 or the Grimm. Any other suggestions to pair with the 005. I’ve had Innuos, Lumin mini, Aries G2.1 along with the current DCS. The Innuos was my least favorite. |
I previously had any number of ethernet based network configurations. Some time ago started experimenting with optical conversion schemes, definite upgrade. Just recently went to Sonore UltraRendu streamer, absolutely fabulous resolving capability and more analog like presentation, never knew digital could be so relaxing, even luxurious. Close call between 005 and UltraRendu as to best streaming/digital upgrade I've experienced in nearly thirty years since incorporation of digital in my systems. UltraRendu will require nice LPS for optimal sq. |
@phastm3 In re-reading your post, mentioned Antipodes, while I've never heard, I do like technologies they incorporate into their servers and streamers. One of the few who optimize for a variety of streaming configurations. Antipodes understands two box streaming solutions, don't rely on usb outs on motherboards to be default or only configuration. |
@phastm3 I would wholeheartedly recommend the Aurender N20, it's the best value in the Aurender range. I've heard the N30 but it's more than double the price. IMO you'd be better off getting an N20 and a master clock unless your funds aren't limited. Before choosing the N20 I auditioned just about every streamer/server. Aurender plays all formats including native DSD. However no Roon. It's a perfect match to the 005 and can output pro level XLR voltage which the 005 can use and sounds better. |
By all indications I'm familiar with the Grimm MU1 and Antipodes are upper tier excellent sounding music servers. The issue I see with the Grimm MU1 is lack of USB . The Musetec 005 seems definitely "optimised" for USB connectivity. Some DACs on the Other hand are built with the intention of optimising SPDIF RCA or AES/EBU signal input. Charles |
@debjit_g The Cary DMS 700 does sound really good. It’s feature set is unsurpassed, weighs 25 lbs and has a 80 page manual. It really is a great value. I am just looking for something with a little more resolution or transparency and a tad more ‘bite’. In the past I have had seperate streamers ( Bryson, Auralic,Aurender) and dacs( eastern electric , Modwright tube) and combos of Aurender A10, Lumin T2, Cary DMS 600 and my Current DMS 700. There are worse things then shipping back a piece of equipment if it doesn’t work out. Got keep this hobby fun!! |
@benzman thanks, I can clearly see what you are trying to say. I was in the same boat early, however from experience with various AKM and ESS, including 9038pro, the AKM usually provided a more smoother sound compared to the ESS, while the ESS has always been exceptionally good with resolution. Not saying they aren’t smooth but the AKM was a touch smoother - it’s all depends on the rest of the system though and I am taking about some very good implementation of ESS DAC chips such as the Matrix Element X. I am actually very intrigued by both the Cary dms700 and Musetec 005 and would be highly interested in your opinion when you get them and have some hours on it. |
@benzman, Maybe the Lumin P-1 would be a good replacement for the Cary? It even has Ethernet optical input standard. |
I agree with @klh007 Lumin P1 or the X1 is very good alternative to Cary dms series but they are also lot more expensive. I think P1 runs around $10k, unless you get a substantial discount :-) ? |
The very best implementation of the ESS DAC chips that I had heard prior to the Musetec 005 was the RESONESSENCE LABS INVICTA MIRUS DAC - Headphone Guru The owners of that company demoed the DAC at a show with purposefully crappy speakers. I was blown away. So, I knew that the ESS chip can be made to sound incredible. These guys used to work at ESS so they knew the chip. A shame the Resonessence Labs is no longer around. If they had priced the Mirrus DAC at the same price as the Musetec 005 they would have sold a ton more.
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@steakster The voltage problem is in the summer mos during the day. Right now at 118-120 so all is good. The electric co is actually bringing in more power into the corridor. Couple year project. Not sure how long shipping takes to get the 005, the Bricasti M3 should be here early next week. It’s a demo so already broken in. I will give the 005 plenty of break in. I will be using an Audience AU 24se MP for power and Townshend pods for vibration I usually upgrade the fuse but might not make much of a difference with 005 power design. If anybody is squeezing any more sq with a fuse please post. The Cary will stream Qobuz,Tidal and serve 24/192 flac and wav files from attached USB drive and integrated SD card Only have SPDIF to test but if I keep it will get a USB streamer/server. |
@benzman The 005 responds well to all the expensive ICs, PCs and Digital cables you can throw at it. However, it will take you to hell and back during the break in, but it'll be well worth it. It took me a full eight weeks. Sometimes I have to flip the phase invert on the pre-amp to get the best sound and switch between AES/EBU and USB. It's been a struggle but USB finally seems to be gaining most favour. Now I'm listening to Mad Dogs and Englishmen, Joe Cocker. Just incredible raw emotion. The 005 will never bore you always full of surprises, good ones! Enjoy! |
Yes, this dac cannot be properly evaluated without at least burn in time on usb input.
Comparison to Briscati should be informative, Briscati formerly on my to buy list along with Aqua Formula, Holo May, Mola Mola Tambaqui, Playback Designs, and many other of the high end usual suspects. I use Synergistic Orange fuse, never used without so can't say about value of fuses here.
I owned Okto DAC8 stereo which uses the rarely used ESS 9028 chip, I thought that dac perhaps smoother/warmer than 005. Chip related, who knows, only one part of many. |
@sns @sns |
Yes I'm very aware of those who hold this opinion (And those who do not). I haven't been committed to a deep delve to determine the proposed superiority of upsampling . My only point was to acknowledge just how superb 16/44 Redbook CD can sound when one assembles a thoughtful system consisting of high quality digital hardware. Hardware in my observation has been the major bottleneck in exploiting the full potential of this format. Charles |
@melm I hope to explore this very soon via an acquaintance building serious server dedicated to running highest level dsp with HQPlayer. I can only say my explorations with Roon dsp have been disappointing at best, I hear an 'electronic haze' or less natural analog like sound quality with any dsp engaged, even allowing Roon to control volume is bothersome for me. My experience points to 005 does better job with these digital processes than Roon, the rest of my system exposes those differences.
At this point not convinced of value of software dsp, typically I see great amounts of dsp used with desktop type systems. Go over to Headfi and lots swear by it, don't see it so much in high end systems. Perhaps lower quality dacs benefit more than the better dacs. It doesn't say much for one's dac if software dsp superior to letting dac control these processes. Why have a good dac if you're not using it's full capabilities? Also, it may be that only extremely transparent, resolving systems painstakingly optimized for maximum analog like sound from digital will expose software dsp anomalies. Still, it may be that us older guys with high end systems are simply ignorant, more resistant to newer technologies. Expect I will soon uncover more knowledge with direct experience. |
IMO we now have such a magnitude of processing capability on tap that up-sampling is no longer necessary and I concur with @sns that resolving systems don’t benefit much or at all from up-sampling. When all is said and done up-sampling is fake, it’s like wearing a fake Rolex. Maybe everyone else believes it’s real but you know it’s fake. The only up-sampling I thought was good was up-sampling to DSD but that was some time ago and the Musetec doesn’t need it. |
Up-sampling externally from s/w, like hqplayer, is only helpful when the DAC can work in a NOS mode (non over-sampling), otherwise the sound quality is mostly determined by the SRC within the DAC itself. Good candidates for nos DACs are T+A, Holo Audio, Denafrips and this is why so many folks use HqP with these DACs. Not sure if the 005 has a nos mode as well. |
@debjit_g AFAIK the 005 is NOS and there is no facility in the software for up-sampling. However the Denafrips does up-sample even in NOS mode, there's something I saw on YT about it. |
If 005 works primarily in NOS mode, then one might try myriads of HqP filter/modulator combo to see if they like the sound of it. It all depends on personal taste - some like, some just don't.
what I meant is up-sampling externally in s/w, like HqP or Roon.
yes, that correct. However, there is a big difference between engaging the nos/os mode. I had the original Terminator and the difference between these two modes is quiet significant, depending how revealing rest of your system is. |
There is a distinction to be made with playback vs recording in hi res digital. Every one of my listening sessions includes both original digital and analog mastered recordings, so we're talking all recording from sometime in 80's back all being analog, 80's-90's a mix, 2000's pretty much all digital. If I'm going to generalize, I find analog mastered recordings more natural, analog like. Digital mastered generally less of this analog like nature. But then there are the standout digital mastered and analog remasters in either redbook or hi res that are superior to almost any analog mastered redbook NON-REMASTERED recording. For the analog masters this suggests the remastering responsible for sq improvement, rather than hi res aspect. As I mentioned previously, I can't say I can confidently determine sq difference between these 16/44 vs hi res remastered analog recordings. So then we come to these superior digitally mastered recordings, both 16/44 and hi res. These easily compete and sometimes exceed the best analog remasters, I hear wider freq. response, superior micro and macro dynamics, an ease and even luxurious sense of vinyl playback that I don't quite get with the best analog masters.
The main issue I hear with most contemporary digital recordings is well documented dynamic limitations. This became salient during last nights listening session, very nice analog master and remastered recordings, then going to some modern recordings, clearly heard loss of MICRO DYNAMICS, not so much the macro, but this loss made me not want to listen anymore of these type recordings. Micro dynamics is where the life of the performance lives, take this away and you have mere sound reproduction, no illusion of performers in room. No amount of dsp or hi res can bring back whats been lost in mastering process.
So, assuming we can't bring back what is lost in mastering via hi res or dsp. How about these superior recordings, how can dsp improve upon the superior master? If mastering is wonderful, why would I want to add something to an already wonderful recipe, I'm as likely to ruin it as improve it. If the dac and system sans dsp are interpreting master recording as intended there should be no need for dsp. So, I can understand there are recordings that could use some massaging, the engineer and/or producer may have created a recipe that could be improved upon. In this case I can understand the judicious use of dsp, the problem with using dsp is that the same dsp settings are set universally, that setting may be perfect for one recording, not so good for another. DSP that could be applied uniquely to each recording could be useful, how to implement this? So, to my way of thinking, dsp is useful only for system limitations. I suggest the best we can do is having a dac with global sound qualities in alignment with our preferences. |
It was a bit late last night when I made the Oversampling / Up-sampling comments. Just so everyone is on the same page an Oversampling DAC Over-samples and then Down samples internally. So 44.1 kHz could be Over-sampled to 88.2 kHz internally and then Down-sampled back to it's original frequency, 44.1 kHz. This is supposed to help reduce hash, noise and grunge etc. Up-sampling is increasing the sample rate manually eg 44.1 kHz to 192 kHz or whatever. HQ Player seems to be the current leader in Up-sampling tech but since I don't use a computer for audio I can't use it AFAIK. What I like doing (because I only listen to old stuff) is increasing the resolution of my system to extract more details from old recordings that I've listened to 1000's of times. |
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My DAC is really settling in and becoming very consistent and very smooth and detailed. I've run it and the cardas usb for about 100 hours over the past week. My streaming setup has been sounding excellent with an occasional seemingly recording related bit of excess high frequency energy. Just for kicks this morning, I substituted an AQ pearl USB in place of the cardas and whoah, it seems to really balance and smooth the occasional high frequency tizziness I've been experiencing. I'll run it a bit longer and see if this impression holds. We all know system synergy matters, not component cost. |
This is a great thread and I've read with mounting excitement/interest about the apparently amazing 005 which if it performs as described is at an equally amazing price. I see the Merason DAC mentioned, which together with the SW1X and Mojo Mystique have my interest and now also the Musetec 005 (thanks to this thread) It would be great if anybody could compare any of these other DACs to his 005. All the DACs seem to be seriously focused on the resultant sound rather than features and being jack of all trades. |
