Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@arafig

The May and 005 are more similar than different. Both have excellent 3-d palpalpability. The 005 is more like the sixth row. The May is less detailed but has a blacker background. I did not think the DSD mode was particularly better than the NOS mode in DSD. It had different sound. DSD is similar to pcm in the 005 but arguably may have a touch more solid texture. The 005 too my easr hhas elevated all sample rates to DSD sound as p÷rceived a few years ago.

@sns

I agree with you that the 005 is probably at or near sota. In terms of comparing current sota to live music, I think we have a long way to go. On a 10 point scale, I suspect we are at a 5. There’s something about live music that doesn’t even let you apply sustained audiophile analysis. For me it is like the sound is entering your brain from a different door. Many times I have closed my eyes during a live concert and asked myself how is this different from the best reproduced music I have heard. I just don’t have a complete answer, but it is different and usually better (not always) is many ways, most of which I don’t even think I could articulate.

@americanspirit  I have a P30 which I use with a McIntosh MC402.  It's  very nice, especially with natural timbre. I hear the P30A won't be in the US until November or December. How does the M8sPre sound with the Mac?

@jjss49 Very well said. 

Another interesting (and obvious) question is do to different pieces of audio equipment that measure the same sound the same. If the answer is no, then the ASR philosophy goes down in flames.

@benzman 

I agree with the other comments. You will probably hear natural realistic details in the music that you didn't notice before. Brightness is just not in the equation. In a poor implementation  brightness is a cheap trick to suggest resolution. In the actual real sound of music it is unrelated.

Interesting. Can you explain more how it is attached at both ends.

I noticed that Network Acoustics is now selling the 005 in the UK. They state on their website: We are extremely particular about the electronics we use to develop and test our own products, and in the quest to find a reference quality DAC we discovered the Musetec MH-DA005. This DAC has replaced a much more expensive (£9,000), very highly regarded and well reviewed DAC and it trumps that DAC in all departments. . .

@pt999 

I agree with you on the sound of the May except I found that the black background and instrument separation was achieved by omitting detail. To my ear the May provided less detail and more separation.  This is to me a contrived but pleasing effect. In reality, detail and separation decrease as your seat moves back in the hall. The May, as I heard it, gave less detail as if you were seated further back in the hall, but, paradoxically, more separation. That is contrary to reality and reality is my bias.

@turcoda Can you describe your setup in more detail? Have you contacted Jinbo, the manufacturer?

@sns 

Have you tried the Network Acoustics  Eno filter with the 005? I noticed you posted on another thread that you were going to try it. If you did I would  be interested in your impressions. 

@sns

Just curious, did you ever experiment with extremely short ethernet runs? This seems like it would decrease emi/rfi noise.

I look forward to hearing your results with the optical rendu and the 005.

@car123  Me too.

@Technorob23

I understand what you are saying about the May versus the 005. As I posted somewhere after I wrote my comparative review, I found the May's  separation and smooth texture very appealing, but ultimately lacking the fine resolution of the 005. Also I felt over time that the separation and layering of the music was achieved by sculpting the sound as an artist would use charcoal shading. Real music yields separation between instruments when the listener is close. As the listener moves further back from the stage, the sound remains palpable and 3d but not separated. Therefore, as appealing as the May sound may be, it is manipulated and unnatural. Since my preference is realistic sound, I prefer the 005.

@melm  You stated differences in perspective perfectly.  Hearing live unamplified music these days is very infrequent for most. We are on the same page 100% in our sound preferences. I respect the idea that enjoying music has no single best method and is purely a matter of subjective preference. But, like you, I would never buy a ticket to hear the world's best record player if I could use the same money to attended a live concert. 

The author of the Enjoy the Music article states in conclusion: “When it's your money buying something for your system, to be used in your listening room, for your enjoyment, no opinion matters but your own.”

This is a pure subjectivist view. It is a also a truism. Of course, why would you buy something you don’t enjoy but some stranger does?

But audiophiles will never adhere to this rule because they love to talk and debate about what is best, or the king, or a giant killer, or state of the art, or superior. So objectivism creeps in after all. This is true on all maters of value judgements in aesthetics and probably ethics. Are values objective facts or whatever floats your boat or a non-rational combination? For further reading see Plato and Jeremy Bentham. I, for one, think there is an inexact baseline based on the reality of real instruments and voices. It is my preference but it doesn’t have to be yours. But if you are in the pure no reality school, don’t crow about what is best only what you personally like.

@Melm  Very well said.  I agree.

It is gratifying to me to hear of your enjoyment. I'm glad, along with others (especially Melm and SNS), to have helped spread the word.

@wharfy I look forward to hearing your impressions.

@wharfy

I agree with melm on the break in time. Also, you might have noticed, it seems most prefer the USB input as better than the others. I would stick with this one, at least in the beginning.

@warfy

@melm had good results with the AudioQuest Pearl usb cable.

@yyzsantabarbara 

I'm curious about the soundstage in the Topping. I read a review that it had good width but poor depth. What is your experience with that?

@melm I saw that. He even sold his Mola Mola because he liked the 005 better. I never would have guessed that. Hopefully he will post here too. 

@Bill-k

I was not charged any fees or duties.

@yyzsantabarbara 

"This is now easily the best DAC I have ever owned. Thanks to the guys who posted on this DAC and also @ricevs who told me that all his customers were getting Musetec DACs. I now understand why."

I'm happy to hear you're enjoying it. It is gratifying to have helped spread the news along with others especially melm and sns.

@ja_kub_sz 

Have you listened to it through USB? I think that the consus is that this input method has been optimized over the others. The argument I have heard against a ddc to I2s is that it is unnecessary since this is what the usb input is doing.

The May verses the 005 seems to be discussed on a few threads here. I just posted this on one of those threads:

@Technorob said: “I currently have both 005 and May. The May just edges it in most areas by a small margin, with the exception of layer separation, stage width and depth where the May is significantly better.”

I will throw in my thoughts. I can definitely see Technorob’s point of view on “layer separation, stage width and depth” being different on the May, but not better. (To my old ear, the other aspects were not “just edged[s]” out by the May but  too close to call.)

It is a matter of perspective, double entendre intended. Many, if not most audiophiles, highly value layer separation, stage width and depth. The underlying frame of reference for most is probably amplified non-acoustic electronically produced music that exists only in recordings, not in real space. Big clear layering and sound stage sounds great with a lot of non-accoustic recorded music and will be preferred by many.

In my opinion, the May does, compared to the 005,  provide an unreal feel of spacial separation and distance at the same time. This is like seeing an image get bigger as you walk further away. As a real concert goer, this is a distortion, even though many will love the effect. It also gains separation by missing natural sound between instruments

I will explain. My perspective is what I hear at a live unamplified concert. If you want maximum separation of instruments and voices, you would have to be very close to the stage if not actually on it. Even then the sound would only be sharply separated and layered if you were listening with your head physically in between instruments. 

Realistic perspective is similar in both sight and sound. When you walk closer to a destination the visual details in you visual field naturally become more visible and separate. It’s the same with sound. When you walk closer to the stage, the sound field gets bigger and instruments sound further apart in space. There is some layering partly depending on your elevation, but nothing in the realm of “audiophile” layering. Sound naturally blends together in the real world. Yes, 3-d palpability exists in the real world, but not in the way many audiophiles love or imagine. 

I said this in my review:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-holo-may-l2-dac-and-the-musetec-audio-lks-audio-mh-da005-da/post?highlight=dbb%2Bcharcoal&postid=2272784#2272784

. . . I said in the review I would report back after a few weeks. I hesitated to do that because the more I listened the more it confirmed my initial impressions stated in the review. I would not change my basic conclusions. I have very little to add. I would add this. Over time I felt I was missing musical information when I listened to the May. At times the May seemed to allow more space between instruments or musicians which at first I believed to be a good thing. I came to realize that this was because the May was omitting sound to get this effect. Much like an artist using charcoal shade to create a 3d effect. I decided to sell the May. Not because it is objectively inferior, but it does not satisfy my preference for realism which comes from concert going experience. Different strokes for different folks.
 

@melm Thanks for the kind words. I agree with your comments on the effect of the entire chain. Still, in a nut shell, I would say the May tends to make a small ensemble sound big by adding seperation and a big ensemble lacking in detail. Again, my perspective is realism, not untethered pleasure. I do not mean to imply those who go for the euphoric sound are misguided. They just have different priorities, perspective and musical preferences.

@debjit_g  I think there may be some confusion. The L.K.S Audio USB-100 USB Audio Interface  can be purchssed with a separate linear power supply, the LPS-25-USB. I don't think the description meant that the power was from usb.

I posted this at ASR:

I’ll try to state my view as clearly as I can now to avoid endless repetitive back and forth. I am not looking to be a troll or be trolled. I have only occasionally read this forum, but the impression I’ve gotten on this Musetec “review” is that not one comment was from anyone who has listened to it. How much time did Amir spend listening to it? I have owned this dac for over a year and spent many hours listening to it and also comparing it to the Holo May.

My thesis then is the tail is wagging the dog here. Why do we even care about audio equipment if not to listen to music? Please read that sentence twice.

The interesting and important question is: why do measurements of audio equipment sometimes differ sharply from what is subjectively heard by the listener? Even John Atckinson the measurement guru of Stereophile magazine has commented on occasion that his listening impression differs from what he has heard.

So, since musical enjoyment is primary, the significant question to examine scientifically is: why do measurements of audio equipment sometimes differ sharply from what is subjectively heard by the listener?

This is a scientific question, though not one confined to physics and electronic date exclusively. As far as I know at this time we do not know the answer. It is not easy to explore, but it seems to me we should look to the fields of psychology and neuropsychology. For now, again, it seems we don’t know. Clearly enjoyment of music is a mental phenomenon.

To emphasis my point, when we go to a concert, do we bring a microphone, computer, and oscilloscope? No, of course we go to listen and enjoy the music. Again, the tail is wagging the dog in this forum.

What’s going on here appears to be neither science nor a review, but a measurement report. My conclusion is that this forum might best be called not Audio Science Review Forum, but Audio Equipment Measurement Report. The data measured is of interest but ultimately only a footnote since the most significant question is: how does it sound?

@Fl_guy

Not everyone is a fan of Steve Gutenberg, but I think he has some good thoughts on the subject at hand.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/can-sound-quality-be-measured/

@melm 

Thanks for  getting Jinbo's take on the ASR measurements. This explains a lot. They seem to be so rabid and closed minded at ASR that it would probably not be useful to post it over there. 

@yyzsantabarbara 

I appreciate your comment and open mindedness. 

There is an extreme hostility over at ASR that I don't comprehend .  I re-posted a comment here that I originally posted there. The comment was largely censored and I was excoriated.  It was at 249: 

I edited your hilarious post for just the humdingers—although it was hard to remove a single word, because the entire piece was so perfect in its unabridged form. I think it’s just hysterical that you actually question whether those of us on this forum actually listen to or appreciate music!

To answer your final question (which I suspect was meant to be rhetorical), this DAC sounds like crap, especially for its price. We know that as surely as we can tell from an EKG if someone has an irregular heart rhythm without using a stethoscope to hear it with our own ears. The measurements confirm that there are noise and distortion present, and no one with an ounce of common sense would bother going through the trouble and expense to listen to these defects to confirm.

You apparently made your choice before this data was available, and no one would judge you for that—not even if you loved the sound. But everyone on here knows you’re getting so bent out of shape only because your denial is so impenetrable that you can’t accept the truth. Where you warrant judgment is in your efforts to demean those of us on this forum who value science and data informing our purchase decisions, implying that we’re a bunch of unenlightened, cerebral rubes who have no appreciation for music.

I can think of nothing more irresponsible in this hobby than trying to gaslight others into making your own extremely costly mistake, just so you’ll feel better about it. There’s been a lot of it on this forum today, and it’s such a killjoy for those of us who are here to learn and share good information with other like-minded hobbyists.

@Toddk31

I think of this audio hobby as a means to enjoy music. It is hard for me to relate to the objectivism school. I don’t understand why you didn’t listen to it. Do you feel it possible that you are biased by measurements? I’m not belittling or criticizing your aproach. It is just something I cannot relate to. It’s sort of like collecting cars and not driving them. I respect your approach but, again, I just can’t understand.

@lordmelton  Did you try the LKS 100 without the linear power supply? I'm thinking of trying it, but thought I could hedge my bets by not buying the lps unless I heard some benefit with the lks 100 on a cheap switching power supply first.

@lordrootman I think @melm  put it very well in a nut shell: If measurements don't correspond to what people hear, then the wrong things are being measured.

@boxer12 I'm using the Zen Stream with the 005 as well. I mostly listen to files from my hard drive via JRiver. I think the quality is excellent. Based on Digital forum advice here, I run it with a switch and an optical cable in the chain.

@Boxer12 It’s a D-Link DSG105. It is available on eBay for a bargain price. It was recommended by a manufacturer.

@boxer12 "So I've been going through some of you guys posts & have ordered the following:

• D-Link DGS105 (shipped but not received)
• AQ Pearl Ethernet cables (received)
• Fiber Patch Cable (received)
• 2 Ethernet to Fiber converters (received)

Really liking the results so far. Hopefully the D-link will be delivered tomorrow. "

How did it go?

@americanspirit  +4 Nice review. These impressions are consistent with most here.

@melm  I just wanted to give you some credit for doing such a fine job on this thread The Mustec traffic belongs here in your good hands. You have done an outstanding job making people feel welcome and expertly informing them. My review helped kindle the fire but your commitment kept it going.

High praise is also due to @sns  for his pioneering effort in discovering the 005. He is an audiophile’s audiophile. I have learned so much from his posts. Yes, “resolution with soul” sums it up beautifully. 

Many others, including @yyzsantabarbara  and @technorob, to name two, deserve credit. 

+1

I have tried the LKS USB Digital Interface (DDC) for a few days with  the 005. In my set up, the LKS I2S ethernet input sounded slightly relaxed with a touch less resolution than the straight USB input. I'm  not sure if I will keep the LKS DDC.

@carr123  Yes. I used an rj45 ethernet cable from the DDC to the dac.

@jjss49 

Thanks for reporting your comparison and doing the necessary work.

 You post is thorough and well done. It certainly helps answer the questions that 005 fans are so curious about: How good is this dac compared to the high priced ones.I look forward to future installments. Again, thanks.

@sns

I still think the 005 is a fabulous bargain even considering that streaming and preamp are not built in. I had a decent preamp already in the chain as do many others so no extra expense there. Thanks to your comments and those of others, I learned of the benefits of streaming after I bought the 005. Still, spending less than $1000 for the streamer, cables, and optical "filter" probably has gotten me most of the way. I guess my system would fall short short of the best SOTA setups out there. But I would also guess I have gotten 80 to 90 percent there for a small fraction of the cost of the best.