@arafiq
Hi there. I hope it doesn’t look like the Musetec owners are piling on.😉
The Musetec uses what is sometimes call a Delta-Sigma chip, the ESS9038PRO, in fact two of them. Such a chip converts all incoming data to a DSD like format making its response to DSD files a perfectly natural function. They sound great.
R2R DACs don’t do that and some of them simply don’t respond to DSD at all. Schiit, for ex. That’s why the Holo DACs have a separate function. Beekhuyzen in his video review of the May says its DSD conversion is a bit less successful than its PCM conversion.
I would add only that I see the Musetec as a truth machine. It will not hide the poor SQ of poor recordings. As I read what the Holo DACs do, it seems that they will round off the harsh edges of lesser recordings. That means to me that they may not reveal all the glory of great recordings. Which you prefer is a matter of taste, and no one can substitute their judgment on that for your own.
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@toddk31
Just for the record, the bashing begins now. Amir does what he does very well. What he apparently cannot do is listen and evaluate on that basis. As for the 005, take out all of the SOTA capacitors for example and replace them with cheap ones that spec the same and the measurements will not change. But the sound will certainly change. Each one of those caps was listen-tested before being put in. Will it even make a difference whether or not the DAC is broken in? It certainly makes a difference to the sound. Then the DAC will be entered into Amir's SINAD graph where the Topping D90SE is rated superior to the Mola Mola Tambaqui. At least that's how some see it. Crazy! In any event I'm confident the 005 will measure well enough.
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Over at the Musetec thread on head-fi.org, the DAC was just compared very favorably to the $13,000 Mola Mola Tambaqui.
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@ja_kub_sz
I'm looking forward to your report-comparison to the $13,400 Tambaqui. They've already been compared on this thread by someone. I love these David v. Goliath trials.
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Virtually all mass produced entry level DACs/CD players made by the mainstream brands follow the same recipe. Op-Amps (Inexpensive off the shelve varieties) utilized for I/V conversion and analog output stage duties.
They employ generous amounts of NFB (Negative feedback) and do one thing consistently well, they yield very good test measurements and specifications. How do they reproduce music and engage the listener? Seemingly that's besides the point. They will measure quite good, mission accomplished.
Certainly it is true to say, "to each their own". I'll chose the talented designer who makes decisions .based on extensive listening and reassessment. I do not find any particular comfort with good spec numbers on paper. It has to sound very good when listening to music.
Charles
@charles1dad
Amen
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@gracky
@jc4659
I use windows and JRiver and am neither an expert on Macs nor Audirvana, and if this doesn’t help I’ll inquire at the thread at head-fi where there are users of both. Or you can. First I would suggest to @gracky that he set the DPLL a bit higher so there is no popping, and then forget about it for a while. The ability to lock on using a narrow setting, like DPLL=1, is dependent upon the digital signal fed to the DAC. I can’t. It is not a number to obsess over. Most users, I think, just drop in the DAC where their old one was and it works right away like the old one. Windows users just have a new driver to install. Your own installation seem a bit more complicated. Have you used the DAC with your CD player using spdif or optical? I don’t understand the need for attenuation. Digital volume control will cost you SQ. Don’t you run the analog through your preamp?
If I understand Audirvana correctly it does not support DSD in native format. Rather it converts the DSD files into PCM resulting in a DoP file. When that conversion is done in the computer, the DAC should just see PCM. Does it? It may recognize it as DoP but you should not have to do anything. That’s how it was on my 004 which did not have the internal DoP function. I used to use an Oppo as a DLNA server and it did not support native DSD digital output. DSD was seen automatically by the DAC as DoP files. No intervention on my part. [The function in the 005 DAC does the conversion there. I have never understood why it’s needed or made available.] IMO if you have a substantial collection of DSD files, as from ripping SACDs or from downloads as I do, you might want to send them to the DAC in native format, rather than PCM or DoP, for with one less conversion the results are stunning. JRiver will do that as will the free program foobar2000.
@jc4659, when you get your DAC you’ll find plenty of support over at the head-fi thread where many difficulties are resolved. As I wrote, Mac and Audirvana are in use by some of 005 owners participating there.
Finally I would say to @gracky that with break-in the linen texture will turn to silk. Instruments will sound more liquid and have more body. How fine the silk will depend on the digital signal fed to the DAC, and what comes after (as sns is finding). I’m talking here about a very high level of refinement. The DAC continues to surprise.
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@metaldetektor
Thank you for your offer to review my DAC, but I would decline. If you want to evaluate the DAC you'll have to buy one like everyone else. As yyzsantabarbara comments it comes with a 30 day return privilege. Who knows, that may cost you less than the round trip of mine. Yes, the gentleman who rated the Musetec above the Mola-Mola Tambaqui makes cables, but he also makes the respected Eno Ethernet Filters. He is quite knowledgeable when it comes to a DAC's place in a system.
Now I remember my comment about the Sonnet; actually it was not about the Sonnet. My point was simply about the value of an accommodation purchase by the Stereophile reviewer and the A+ category there. IMO, not much value. So I looked at the Sonnet. Seems you "owned" it for less than a month. Really? Not much good hardware there IMO. More expensive than the Holo Spring 3, but the Spring shows a far better insides than the Sonnet. As between the two I would choose the Spring. That is explained by its European manufacture; they simply can't do it. And, of course nothing inside approaches the Musetec.
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@wharfy
Now that it is broken in somewhat, you're getting its full flavor. I'm glad that you are enjoying the DAC. As for the "DAC topology" it's all laid out in the pictures and descriptions on the Musetec home page. No mysteries here. That picture is a virtual map of the DAC (though the analog part, 8 FETs and associated stuff, is mostly hidden). It's accomplished without any Supercalafragalistic FPGA chip, just a pair of chips that went through 3 generations and decades of development, an honest power supply and discrete analog stage, all with superior parts. I don't care how long you have it; every so often there will be a recording that will surprise and astonish.
I spent most of today listening to my analog rig. I've had enough of the: some DACs sound like analog. Truth is a really good analog rig does NOT sound like analog. It sounds, as does a good digital rig, like the instruments it's supposed to sound like. When a DAC is called "analog sounding" it is, in reality, a coloration. People are free to like it, or not.
Sorry you can't get the I2S pin-out configuration for the Pro-ject. I think it's outrageous that they don't give it to you, unless it is something other than a true I2S out..
@jc4659
I remember sending my money away (and without a return option). Could it be as good as I was told? Days of trepidation. Well, it seems to have worked out for us. I'm happy it seems to please. As for the 96K problem. First question, is the DAC OK? When you feed it files from your Mac and Audirvana is it correctly identifying the sampling rate? If it is, and I hope so, then there is the issue of your CD player. It is an old one. Is it possible that it is signaling a spurious rate? If everything else is OK you might have to live with it. Perhaps better to get on with your CD ripping.
@metaldetektor
Our wandering philosopher. You haven't told us anything about your own DAC experience except you've heard the Sonnet, a DAC I never before heard of. I don't know about the Sonnet, but one contributor here has told us that the Musetec is outperforming the Holo Spring, and a review here has compared the Musetec favorably to the Spring's big brother, the May. And a respected audio engineer has told us it outperforms a Mola-Mola. Truth is that the Musetec seems to play on the court with the bigger boys. As for not on the "organic end." I'm not certain what you mean by that, but if you mean that instruments and voices are large, and round and have body to them, the the Musetec is right there. Why don't you write of your DAC experience rather than what you have read, for we've all read the same stuff.
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@rrboogie
Thanks for the post. What has kept it going are messages of satisfaction like your own.
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We haven’t seen much ESS Saber bashing on this thread lately. An interesting fact, though, is that the $34,000 Ideon Absolute DAC uses a single ES9038PRO chip. Its advertising stresses its power supply and analog circuit. Where have I heard that before? TAS says, "this is a world-class digital-to-analog converter, and even something of a bargain"
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@lordmelton
Earlier I wrote that I discovered the 004 as a result of Ric’s recommendation of the unmodified 004 on another forum He then began to do mods to the 004, However, I think because of its innate quality, his 004 modification was, by far, his cheapest mod. There was not much he could think to do to it. It was about $500, far less than any other in-person mod to a DAC that I know of.
A used 004 is about the best deal I can think of in this space.
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@pt999
@arafiq
I respect the fact that pt999 might prefer the May over the Musetec and would be willing to pay the difference. One cannot argue taste. In one of my recent posts I have said the same. By the way, IMO it needs more than a week of break-in due to some very special capacitors in the analog section.
However, about your purchase and return. Sorry to hear of your dilemma. To my knowledge this is the first reported return of a Musetec. I have never bought from Shenzhen. They seem to have been in business for a long time; they seem to do a lot of business. Up until now we have only heard positive things about them like honoring Black Friday prices beyond the sale dates and pretty reasonable shipping times.
Their "30 Days No Reason Return" policy reads as follows: "After returning the product to the address provided by our customer service team, we can send you a new item free of charge (we will reimburse you the return shipping cost), or you can choose to receive a full refund. Please contact us for Return Material Authorization within 30 days of the order being received." It is pretty simple and pretty clear.
If they don’t honor that policy TO THE LETTER, then that’s what credit card charge-backs are for. Communicate with your credit card bank. Just make sure that you have not already paid your credit card bill for that item until after you challenge the charge and deduct it from your payment. With a 30 day return period that should be easy to do.
All of this seem pretty straight forward and, personally, I would have no problem ordering from them. I have learned to deal very effectively with situations like that. But I can understand if others would avoid.
Finally I would say to pt999 that if Shenzhen persists in these charges you might want to report this to the FTC, and tell Shenzhen you plan to do so. The FTC takes reports like this on-line.
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@yyzsantabarbara
Earlier you wrote, "Shipping back to China with Shenzhenaudio is about $125 USPS. Which I did with another DAC."
In view of what has been written here about returns to Shenzhen, would you describe that experience please.
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@metaldetektor
Audiogon is a moderated forum. But that’s not enough for you. Now you are officially its policeman, protecting the great unwashed from being bamboozled. If you can find one thing that I wrote here that is untrue or over the top I challenge you to put up or shut up. Fact is that interest in the Musetec here took off after a detailed comparative review from @dbb that is widely admired.
I sympathize with @pt999’s plight. But there is definitely a way to handle it. However his is the only return, or even disappointment, I’ve ever heard of and I approach it with some skepticism. No one here or elsewhere told him that the the Musetec is better than the May. I have no idea why he would order one, except to validate his choice of the May. I have no idea what "connects me with the music better" means except "I like it better." Furthermore, if he had read this thread and otherwise done his due diligence he would have known that one week of burn-in is insufficient for this DAC. He sounds like you, taking advantage of all sorts of deals to "borrow" DACs so as to feign expertise. My guess is that’s what you do. Do you even own a DAC? I kind of doubt it. In any event my interest is in Musetec, not in Shenzhen.
As for the cost of return, I have calculated $183.10 by Priority Mail International. There can be no duty returning a Chinese item to China. So just more of your BS. It would cost me about the same to return a Yggdrasil after only a 15 day trial.
I don’t have to validate anything. This is the second DAC I’ve bought from this maker. I’ve been doing this for a long time. My interest here is simply giving a fine product some exposure. Some here have appreciated that. Many fine products don’t get much exposure in the usual, commercial, places. I think of my Audio Technica Art-9 that never got a commercial review but was exposed right here. It is a great component. Similarly the Supratek pre. There are others.
Seems you’ve spent 30 lines telling us you’re done here. Thank you.
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These sale prices from Shenzhen usually last a week or two. There seems never to have been a problem with Shenzhen’s safe delivery of a perfectly functioning new unit. Check posts here at about the time of the 2021 Black Thursday sale. However, there have been questions raised about Shenzhen’s return policy. See the 12-11-21 post by @pt999 and the subsequent discussion, including the decision to keep the DAC. In any event, no one here has yet reported wanting to return the DAC after trying it in their system.
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@fl_guy
First, I’m not familiar at all with headphone gear but it looks impressive and some steps above the Saga+.
I thought the Freya+ was very good sounding and certainly punched above its price, though the manufacturing was very clearly to a price. And its operation was a PITA. The Rogue was a very clear step above, and instantly recognizable as such. It had been some years since I had used tubes at all and I was quite impressed. Used it cost about 4x the new Freya+, but I was/am very happy with it. Fortunately it’s easy to sell Schiit stuff. I liked it enough, especially after rolling in some Mullards, that I eventually went for a Rogue amp. It’s hard to describe these things. I can only say that while it was a very clear step up it was not anywhere near the step up that the 005 was over the 004. I had thought that the 004 was to be my permanent DAC. Again, these things are hard to qualify.
Good luck which ever way you go.
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@fl_guy
And I liked the 004 with a Schiit preamp. But when I went to a much better preamp, I liked the 004 even better. Somewhere in an audio system, unless it is exquisitely matched, there will be the limiting component that will curtail the SQ. I don’t think it will be the 005.
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@car123
@benzman
It’s been covered before about the USB cable. The Amanero board in the Musetec is powered, and powered very well by the banks of supercapacitors. That’s one of the great features of the DAC. Therefore there is no current flowing through the 5V line of a USB cable feeding into it, and therefore no possible interference with the data lines. One of my cables that works very well doesn’t even have that line. So that aspect of the Cardas or Curious just doesn’t matter. Still, they may be fine cables using only the three lines to the DAC.
@benzman
I’m guessing that if you like the Musetec you may be better off selling the Cary and using the proceeds to get a really great streamer. The Musetec will respond very well to a streamer that may cost a great deal more than the DAC. Also, before you mentioned the USB limitation of the Cary I was going to recommend the Audioquest Pearl USB cable. Being pure copper solid core it will not tend to overstimulate the higher frequencies. You’re probably right about USB being a step-up.
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@arafiq
I don't know anything about a Tekton thread. But please, no false analogies. At one point I wrote to you, "Which you prefer is a matter of taste, and no one can substitute their judgment on that for your own." Is that the sort of post on the Tekton thread?
Just a bit of context about this thread. It's kind of old, had a short spurt and then died in favor of the much more important one that is @dbb's comparison review with the Holo May. That one encouraged a couple of people to actually try the DAC and who chose to report that here, and this thread took off. As the OP it is my email that rings with each post. So I try to help when I can.
You write of how criticism of the brand is treated. Fact is, there has been no criticism of the brand. The worst thing said about it here is that a person prefers his broken-in Holo May to the not-yet-broken-in Musetec. And the response to that was exactly, "I respect the fact that pt999 might prefer the May over the Musetec and would be willing to pay the difference. One cannot argue taste."
Next you write about @metaldetektor, agreeing completely with his assessment. But there has been no assessment; he has only pontificated, BSd and insulted. He has not written here of experience in audio, only that he had multi kilobuck DACs at his place to evaluate. According to him he bought one DAC, but it was gone by the end of the month. Oh yes, he wrote, "I'm happy to write about your Musetec vs. the various 10k DACs I've owned/home-auditioned. Send it to me . . " Can you believe it? So which of his "assessments" do you agree with? I have not seen any.
Then you say, we have not addressed the "concerns (email) that pt999 raised." Did you not see the suggestions of contacting his bank and seeking a credit card charge-back and even reporting this to the FTC? I did express skepticism regarding his "purchase" for it seems odd. If we expect ethics on the part of merchants we should act ethically ourselves. Ordering when a return is really contemplated is not ethical IMO. He didn't even let the Musetec break-in. I remain skeptical; though that has nothing to do with DACs. BUT, he is still entitled to his refund.
Finally, no one here has taken Shenzhen's side so I don't understand your final rant on the issue. In a day or two I may have something to say about alternative sources.
In any event you say you are no longer interested in the Musetec (even if you remain interested in this thread). That's fine. I'm not on commission.😉
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@arafiq
You wrote, "Let’s not get into ethical dilemmas."
Why not? Taking advantage of return policies is a reasonable way to audition gear when you might actually buy the stuff. It’s not OK IMO when you just want to hear stuff that you have no intention of keeping. Especially when you’re talking about around the world shipping. What the motivation is for that, except building some sort of experience/expertise, is something you can ask those of who do it. If we abuse these relatively easy returns, they push prices up for everyone and will not continue on the same terms.
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@fl_guy
Perhaps this can help. I have good news and bad news. When I had the 004 I bought a Freya+ and used it with 2 Sylvania chrome domes. I liked it a lot and it bested an excellent SS preamp. Different than the Saga+ I used it with the balanced ins. It worked well with any of the settings on the Freya+. The analog sections of the 004 and 005 are very similar in architecture, though quite different in parts selection. So I think there will be a similar result.
The bad news is that I gave up the Freya+ because I wanted more preamp flexibility and had to pay a lot for it. I went to a Rogue RP-7. Though I did it for the flexibility, the result in SQ was quite substantial--still with the 004. I was surprised. So I’m going to guess that while the 005 will work well with the Saga+, the Saga+ may prove to be quite a limitation on the SQ you will get. I don’t know what else you have in your chain. Gives you an excuse to spend more money on a preamp. I got mine used.
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Well, the Musetec DAC must be reaching an unanticipated level of acceptance so that its name is now being used to shill for a competitive, virtually unknown, product.
As for the competitive product, it seems actually to be aimed at the Holo Audio Spring level of DAC and their customers rather than anything more advanced. However, based upon what I see inside it should not attain the SQ of the Spring.
If we bypass the laudatory review and actually look inside, what do we see. Or rather what do we NOT see. We do not see a totally separate power supply for its digital side. That is a feature usually found on DACs that aspire to a higher level of SQ. Rather, the two sides are powered through the same transformer. That alone should be sufficient to distinguish it from the Spring.
But I’ll take this effort to be complimentary to the Musetec. Now perhaps @high-amp should go on to one of the Holo Audio threads and interrupt over there. I’m certain they’d appreciate his effort.
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@batvac2
No one is saying that they are pleased that a component doesn't measure well. What a good number of people here have said is that standard measurements tell you very little about how a component will sound. The only thing that matters is how it actually sounds. Nothing else matters. Period. End of story.
This is such an old theme in audio that it seems trivial to keep repeating. Cheap Japanese direct drive turntables measured better by standard measurements than did expensive belt drives. And with the help of the audio press then, tons of them were sold, and they sounded awful. Early solid state "measured" better than time-tested tubed electronics and the audio press of the day helped sell tons of these too. They sounded awful too. And even today, solid state measures better than tubes; digital measures better than analog, and on and on. We have NEVER developed measurements that tell us accurately what we want to know about a high end audio component and that is: how does it sound? IMO the most useful measurements made these days are for loudspeakers. Yet no speaker measurement yet devised can tell me what I really want to know about a speaker and that is: will it disappear? Yes, for all of these components we have to listen!
At the time of the measurement discussion I wrote this. There are some things worth emphasizing. Per the designer of the Musetec it is relatively easy for any trained electrical engineer to produce a DAC that measures very well. China has a lot of trained engineers, many more than we have. In choosing parts for his DACs he listens and chooses those that add to SQ as he hears it even if they cost in measurement stats. That's it. The very many here who have heard and admire the Musetec have come to agree that he has a refined musical sensitivity. Now that may be hard to come by, in China or anywhere. But as an engineer, a real engineer, he can produce this very musical component at a relatively low price relative to other very fine sounding DACs. That's what good engineers do. But you say that this approach "bugs" you. As I say in the post referred to, if you find that disturbing then perhaps this DAC is not for you.
You say your $900 Topping sounds fantastic. And we all know that Toppings measure well over at ASR. Then I have to wonder what brings you here. Giving what you write, you seem to be wasting this time writing when you can be enjoying your Topping. You haven't though told us to what other DAC you have compared your Topping, nor anything about the system it feeds into. So we have no context at all for your "fantastic" description. But you go on to write that you'd evidently like to do a listening test yourself to see if what has been described, designing for sound alone, is really possible. So perhaps you really don't believe that the Topping is the best of all possibilities for you. So you can relieve your anxieties by trying out a better DAC. Musetecs have done pretty well on the used market for there are so few of them there. So you wouldn't really be risking all that much by trying. Wait for one of the Shenzhenaudio sales.
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I said in response to an earlier post that I would look into possibilities other than Shenzhen. I have a lot of experience buying from overseas.
I did inquire with Shenzhen as a potential customer and asked them about their return policy telling them I had seen their email to @pt999 . After 48 hours I have not received a reply. Perhaps if pt999 has attempted to return the 005 and can tell us exactly what he was confronted with, that would be valuable information. Given the possible need of a bank charge-back some may wish to order from there; others will not want to. support@shenzhenaudio.com
I contacted Apos Audio, who has NOT been selling the Musetec for about a year. For some reason they maintain a very detailed web page on the Musetec and it usually comes up first when Musetec is Googled. They confirmed that they do not sell it. I was asked if I might like something else they offer.
The Musetec is sold by more than one Chinese seller on ebay also offering a 30 return privilege--buyer pays return postage. With ebay behind you I, personally, would not worry. It’s been my experience that ebay favors the buyer. Their delivery times though seem very long, which seems to be the norm on ebay items from China, so one should inquire with the seller very specifically about delivery. If they promise delivery in writing and too much time goes by without sending a you tracking number you should be able easily to cancel. There are other Chinese sellers such as those under the AliExpress banner, but I see no benefit there.
Another possibility is the European distributer, Clear Components in Cologne Germany. They deliver world-wide. Their price is currently 3250 Euros including VAT. When you take VAT out of it and translate to dollars I have it at $3044 plus $85 delivery, but please do your own math. I do not see them offering a 30 day return. A couple of folks on the head-fi thread have bought from them, and vouch for them. They say they have a limited number available and say they have a 5-8 day delivery time. info@clear-components.de
Finally one can buy directly from the factory. If you inquire there will be perfect information about price, stock and delivery. My experience was that if it’s in stock it will go out the next day. No returns. List price probably. I was certain about wanting one, and buying from the factory means they get all the money (Paypal) and don’t have to split it with a retailer. bleerock@126.com
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@sns
The 9028 chip is also used in the Benchmark DAC3 I think. It's one of the more popular DACs
@sns
@charles1dad
What I had suggested is, with a given the level of mastering, users of the various Red Book (and even DSD) upscalings of programs like Audirvana and HQPlayer claim an increase of SQ. The explanation is that some steps of the Sigma-Delta process are taken over from the DAC by the higher power computer with a beneficial effect. So the mastering counts, of course. But advocates of upsampling claim that even the finest mastered 16/44 files can have their SQ enhanced even more. HQPlayer, for one, has built a business on that proposition.
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Happy Holidays and Best Wishes for a Great New Year to all.
@arafiq
Thanks for the kind words. All of these are terrific components. You were lucky to find a used one in good condition because they are all considered to be keepers. I didn't lose much sleep over the very small benefits I might have gotten by choosing something else. My strong belief is that what comes before the DAC and the rest of the system afterward can have far more impact.
@pt999
Terrific post comparing to your Holo May KTE. As you say, another data point, really next to what @dbb has written. Very different set of surrounding components, probably different kind of musical samples. Valuable information for anyone contemplating purchase of either unit.
@jc4659
Nice to know that the 005 is working out for you. I'm not in total agreement with @sns . I found, at least when playing disks from my Oppo, that I preferred a Toslink even over an Oyaide silver spdif. An optical cable was recommended by a cable guru that is inexpensive and VERY good. It is called "Cable Matters Toslink Cable" and available from Amazon.
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@lemonhaze
You write: "the apparently amazing 005 which if it performs as described is at an equally amazing price."
I have to inquire why there's an "if" there. Why would you think that the DAC does not "perform as described." Do you have any reason to distrust a good number of listeners like yourself?
I can give you five reasons why the sum of what you will find here about the DAC, written by actual purchasers/users, is more reliable than any review by what you would call a "reviewer."
As for comparisons of the $3200 Musetec to the $5500 Merason or the $6000 SW1X or the $7500 Mojo Mystique, you're probably dreaming about a perfect world. It's already been compared to the Holo May, the Mola Mola Tambaqi, Chord Hugo 2 with M Scaler and a host of DACs that it has replaced. Apparently it will soon be compared to the Bricasti.
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@jc4659
Nice post. You’re not the first to write of a WAF for this DAC, though we might have to redefine WAF. As you have only 40 hours on the DAC you have a lot to look forward to. With a CD player that might not be operating at its best, you may not be running on all 4 cylinders for CD playback. Eventually you may want to go to a better CD player as @wharfy has done (See Pro-Ject thread), or rip your CDs and go to streaming as others of us have done. It’s a fork in the road that deserves a lot of consideration.
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@agentwja
You write of the possibility of getting an R2R DAC and a chip DAC to compare. If you look around you can see that it’s been done here by two fair and credible audiophiles with no commercial interest in either. Moreover it was done with two very different audio systems and (probably) with two very different choices of music. That would be by @pt999 in this very thread comparing the Musetic with dual ESS9038pro chips and the Holo Audio May KTE. The other is by by @dbb in the thread, https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-holo-may-l2-dac-and-the-musetec-audio-lks-audio-mh-da005-da, comparing the Musetec with the Holo Audio May L2 DAC. Despite their personal differences, they came to very similar conclusions, to wit, these DACs are very close in performance. I’d like to speculate why that might be.
There is a great effort by the industry to promote the differing technologies in the digital realm. Whether they promote the R2R technology, the ESS9038pro or other chips or the chips they develop themselves using FPGA chips. Two of these technologies are relatively expensive to produce. That would be today’s R2R technology and the FPGA chips.
The R2R technology of today is a discrete one. It is made of many individual parts, including lots of precision resisters. In parts and labor, that is expensive. Some time ago R2R chips were easily available so all of these parts and this labor were collapsed onto a relatively inexpensive chip. And in the digital realm, it seems, chips work as well as discrete. But these chips are no more, but for some NOS.
Programming an FPGA chip is an alternative to paying anywhere from $20 to $95 (in small quantities) to companies like TI, AKM or ESS for their chips. It takes many man-hours to do it. That costs money. Whether the result can outperform the three decades and three generations of ESS chip development, for example, is a question that has not been answered, for me anyway. But it does give companies that do it the promotional possibility of differentiating their product. "Our chip is better, like no other, and it can be updated!"
All of which leads to my personal conclusion that none of this matters as much as the more important considerations of a DAC. Makers who purchase the relatively inexpensive chips can put their resources here. They are: (1) Power supply and (2) analog section. There are some very well known and very expensive DACs that use cheap power supplies. There are some very expensive and very well known DACs that use cheap analog chips as the basis for their analog section. IMO one of the reasons that the DACs in the two comparisons above sounded both very good and very much like each other is that they both have fine power supply sections and fine discrete analog sections.
How can you tell when a DAC has a good power supply and/or a good analog section? You must look inside and see. Or find a review that does that for you, rather than just recite a list of audiophile platitudes and call that a review.
I’m not here to denigrate any brand, but two you list have been around for a very long while and one of them, at least, is well known to have a sound signature particular to the brand. Also, look inside and compare. This is a fast moving segment.
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@wharfy
I've been reading with pleasure about your CD experience on the Pro-Ject thread. Looks like you're having a good time. I write in response to your venture into CD burning. I think you'll find that a very interesting voyage. I wrote earlier that ripping CDs and playing them from a hard disk to be a great convenience. I also found that it improved SQ in a clearly discernable way. But I was starting from an Oppo 105. You are starting from the Pro-Ject. So it will be very interesting to see what can be acomplished. Which Aurender will you be using? USB or spdif to the DAC? In my case it's USB to the DAC and when you do that it's, agan, a bit like analog where a lot of very little things can make a difference. And, oh yes, Happy New Year.
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@benzman
System matching is always a critical issue. I’ve always opted for neutrality in each component if I can find it. You may be able to compensate a bit with tubes in your preamp, the same as I use.
I think your focus on the DAC chips may miss the point. The difference between the Lumin and the Musetec is obviously not in the chips, though the Lumin uses a pair of 9028s and the Musetec a pair of 9038s. The differences would be in the power supplies and the analog stages and the differences are quite substantial. I would not expect these two DAC to sound anywhere near alike.
Now more directly to your question. I think most people here think of the Musetec as quite neutral. With a speaker on the bright side that may present a challenge. The Cary includes a streamer; the Musetec does not. Does the Cary integrate better with your system than did the Lumin? The question may be about what you are looking for that the Cary doesn’t quite deliver? You might reread @dbb’s comparative review.
Assuming you’re in the US, one thing you might do is inquire with the dealer in Indiana about a trial period. Another possibility is to communicate with Shenzhen (who are currently running a sale) with precision about their return policy. But, as I wrote earlier, no one who has tried this DAC in their system as yet wanted to return it.
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@fmzip
You may find some folks having more experience with the 005 over at the head-fi 005 thread. If you want comments about whether "there is really more to be had with the 005" you might want to summarize the modifications you have made to the 004. IIRC there are those who have modified the 004 extensively and maintain they have achieved even more in SQ than has the 005. In any event, a couple of folks over there will probably understand what you have done.
You write that you are going directly from a Mac Mini to the 004. Are you using a decrapifier of some kind, or have you considered something like a DLNA bridge? Or does the use of HQPlayer make those unnecessary or undesirable?
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@theatro
A CR2025 works. A very easy battery to find.
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@metaldetektor
You asked about break-in of the Musetec DAC.
In his first post after receiving the Musetec, @pt999 compared it to his fully broken in May Holo KTE DAC. After one week of break-in he decided to return the unit. He preferred the May, apparently by a good margin.
In his second post, written after 16 days and 350 hours* of break-in he changed his mind and decided not to return it. He writes that, "The 2 DACs sound very similar. Switching back and forth multiple times on the same music passage, some the differences I found before are no longer valid. The Musetec air and space are about the same as the May." He continues to prefer the May saying the sound is a bit "crisper." That is usually more of a description of a sigma-delta DAC, but that’s what he says. He continues, "I’m not sure I can pass a blind listening test identifying which is which."
This very much confirms what @dbb has written as an OP after a full break-in of both units.** HIs break-in of the Musetec was longer than that of @pt999.
*Others have reported needing more time.
**Comparative Review: Musetec DAC and Holo Audio May DAC
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@romazicon
Thanks for your forthright comment. No one, I think, has said this is the best DAC of all or that is the DAC for everyone. I wonder, though, if I could ask you about two things.
You said that you returned the DAC. At one point in this (now very long) thread there was a major discussion about a dealer who promised a return possibility, but it turned out not to be so simple. Can you tell us please who was the dealer who accepts returns. Potential buyers might want to buy there.
Also, you said the DAC was not for you. I can understand that. Would you care to tell us if you compared it to another DAC that worked better in your system? Is it the DAVE? And perhaps, a bit about your system? As I wrote earlier, another valuable data point for any DAC purchase.
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@romazicon
I appreciate your last post. It provides plenty to think about.
But I would ask again for you to tell us where you bought and returned the 005. As I wrote, there have been many posts about returning the DAC. As yet there has been no suggestion of an allowed return without a lot of penalty. You are the first who has written about a successful return. It has already been suggested that though you have written about buying and trying the DAC, you actually haven't. It would certainly enhance your credibility if you told us who the dealer was, if there was a dealer. If not, how did you come by the DAC?
Thanks.
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@lordmelton
Congratulations and thanks for the kind words. Based on your last post I expected to hear from you by now, but with about a month of breaking-in. Sorry the DAC took so long to get to you. Others wrote that they were getting their Musetecs about 10 or so days after ordering. Snafus happen, I guess.
Nice that it's giving some pleasure right out of the box, but the best is yet to come. If you haven't seen it I wrote about break-in just 3 days ago. You're surrounding the DAC with some really nice components so it's especially good to know that it is meeting expectations.
As many have written, this DAC is really optimized for USB so that's the route to work on IMO.
You write that you'll be, "looking at a USB to I2S converter re-clocker." However, that's exactly what the upgraded Amanero board does inside the DAC with a better power supply and better clocks than you're likely to find in a separate unit. So I fail to see the advantage. A positive move in that direction (at least in theory) might be an ethernet to I2S device bypassing any USB entirely. Whether such a unit can outperform the USB on the Musetec may still be a question. Beekhuyzen tested such a device and found it not to perform better than the inexpensive USB combo he was using.
Looking forward to that post you promised after a month of break-in.
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Someone once said, there are fools and then there are damn fools!
The Musetec is a DAC; that’s all. Show us the inside of the Okto you’re writing about. That’s also just a DAC. Most of the inside space of the much smaller Okto case is, in fact, empty.
The Oppo looks busy because it does a lot of things. But is does NOTHING really well. I own an Oppo. The Oppo is good mid-fi. People spend thousands of dollars modifying Oppos to get them to sound really good, typically twice what the Oppo originally cost. The Oppo also was a mass produced player and achieved economies of scale that no high end producer can match.
What the pictures don’t tell the uninitiated about the Musetec is the cost of the transformers particularly the large O-Ring transformer, the SOTA capacitors, the 8 transistor (FETs) analog section which is covered, the custom femto crystal clocks, and the super-capacitor network all of which contribute to SQ. The two capacitors seen just below the analog section cover probably cost more than either of the two principal boards on the Oppo.
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@jc4659
When I contemplated buying the LKS 004 in the Spring of 2017 I felt like a pioneer to be importing an almost unknown Chinese DAC without any North American presence. It had been recommended for its SQ and as a great bargain by someone I trusted. I did my due diligence reading all I could about the 004 and even the 003 going back to about 2014. And there was a lot to read as each of these became the subject of serious modifications so that there were plenty of folks who knew the quality of these DACs from the insides. Everything I read confirmed its quality of build and quality of parts. In all I read there was, IIRC, not a single reported case of failure. Moreover, the modular way all of these are built, and including the 005, were there to be a problem it is relatively easy to lift out a board and send it for repair. In the 005 it is 4 boards, each plugging in to the next. It is probably cheaper to send a board to China than to send an entire DAC across the US. But given the full history you’ll likely never have to do that. All of which is to say that was enough to allay any reservations I may have had.
As for the 005, I think of those contributing here it is @sns who has had the 005 the longest going back to a Black Friday purchase in 2020. It seems to be working fine. As for what @sns wrote about updating, he is, I’m certain, talking about USB software updates that Musetec has made easier on the 005 than on earlier DACs. It is the USB section that interacts with the computer. The ability to upgrade means that it can keep up with OS changes and not become obsolete.
One more random thought since there has been so much discussion the last few days about improving the digital/audio environment for the 005. I recall in the vinyl days (and I am still there) if we had a really good turntable, which is where the music begins, giving it a better power supply, a better cartridge, better interconnects and/or a better phono pre we would discover that the TT could find more and more music in those grooves. Similarly, we may not yet know how good the Musetec really is. The same may be said for other fine DACs. Each time I have improved my DAC’s digital environment--with a DLNA bridge, a network switch, etc., I got more out of it. Others on this thread have done so much more and have found the DAC to respond. The DAC has not yet been found to be the limiting factor.
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@jc4659 As for what others are doing, here’s my own streaming set-up. I have made a relatively inexpensive (compared to others I read of) system providing vey good SQ. Music files are on a 4TB NAS running to an SOtM sMS-200ultra neo (used) as a digital bridge to the DAC. I have a small laptop running Jriver and one of its remote apps used either on my phone or on an Android pad. The beauty (to me) of the bridge is that the computer directs the music from the server to the bridge to the DAC without going through the computer. So no computer noise, I think. I don’t use a decrapifier, though some with a system like mine do. Jriver brings a lot of conveniences. The NAS and Jriver are accessible to a desk top and by wifi anywhere else in the house.
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I neglected to say that the "digital bridge" in my description is a DNLA bridge.
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There was a short article about Midwest Audio in Stereophile. The article located it in South Bend IN, of which Mishawaka is a suburb. Finally a US dealer; that’s news
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@blang
Thanks for the info about the US dealer and congrats on your purchase.
As for break-in, I responded to someone else:
In his first post after receiving the Musetec, @pt999 compared it to his fully broken in May Holo KTE DAC. After one week of break-in he decided to return the unit. He preferred the May, apparently by a good margin. In his second post, written after 16 days and 350 hours* of break-in he changed his mind and decided not to return it. He writes that, "The 2 DACs sound very similar." You can do a search for his full post in this thread.
As for stand-by mode, the factory says it doesn’t matter. As I have tubes in my amp and pre, I go to standby and turn it on when I turn my tubes on.
The care with with the USB in put is designed makes it the first choice IMO and that of some others. Perhaps someone else will chime in.
I used slow because sns said it’s better and have never looked back.
I experimented with upsampling and did not find it useful so I’m at native. Again, others may chime in
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@jc4659
Can you help with a question asked of me about break in. About how long did it take you to accumulate 100 hours of actual listening? Thanks.
By the way, are you continuing to count?
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@arafiq
To add to your store of information and knowledge, IIUC the reviewer is a manufacturer of, among other things, an ethernet filter held in very high regard on this board. He continually needs and uses a DAC of very high quality to test his products as they develop and are improved. He used to use the Tambaqui. He sold it after hearing the Musetec. Apparently (and you’ll see this if you read the head-fi thread) it wasn’t a close call. As he sells other, related, items and as there was no one selling the Musetec in the United Kingdom he arranged to become a dealer there.
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@erictal4075
Are you using the Holo preamplifier with a Musetec?
You are quite right that, but for temporary use, the volume control of the Musetec (and most other DACs) should not be used as they constrain the dynamics if used beyond just a few db. As @sns has pointed out, beyond feeding this DAC with the cleanest stream of bits you can, it will benefit from good components following it. In that vein I have always recommended a tube preamplifier as I have always found it helpful to a system to have tubes somewhere in the mix and the preamp is a logical place. But if there is a special synergy between the Holo preamp and the Musetec, that's a valuable contribution.
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@yyzsantabarbara
The search for better SQ never ends, My own guess is that going in through USB on this DAC is as good as it gets. But that’s only a guess and additional data points are always welcome. We’ll be following your progress.
As for compatibility, it used to be that devices with an I²S output (mainly from China, like the Singxers) all had dip switches making them adaptable to the non-uniform I²S inputs in the various DACs. There eventually came to be an informal standard IIUC around the PS Audio DACs. But it is not really a standard. And some devices (like the Pro-Ject CD transport) won’t even disclose their pin configuration.
As for the GAIA, Denafips says, "Hermes/Gaia DDC shipped after 25th March 2021 is equipped with I²S pinout configuration capability." So you're covered. But be careful if you buy used. Otherwise you’d have to reconfigure your cables.
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