Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

The two images @lordmelton posted, I could see some more differences as well

1. A Mundrof cap near the digital input section removed in the 2nd image 

2. Heat sinks from two chips near the analog section is removed from the 2nd image.

I am not sure which one is the latest. It would be awesome if someone who got the unit recently be brave enough to open the unit and post couple of pictures 😊

@toddk31 you bought the 005 solely based on measurements that was published by the manufacturer ?

That is coming. There are many copies of FM Acoustics Pre and Power amps available at different price ranges. I’ve personally heard $2k copies and they sound really good, better than they should. Even the ICBs have been copied exactly. FM Acoustics is way up there $200k+ per unit.

Here is a Dartzeel for only $650 for your consideration.. 😁

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112503108549

There was one 005 for sale in usaudiomart just a few days back. I asked the seller what DAC he preferred. He courteously replied that he preferred the Holo Audio May by a good margin. Most DACs in this price range are mostly system dependent. 005 seems like a great value and so are other DACs, like the Matrix Audio Element series which has an immaculate measurements. Like many, I have gone through a fair share of DACs (PS Audio DS, Denafrips Terminator, Lampizator A3 & B3, Matrix Audio Element X, Chord, Aqua and many more) and I strongly believe, there is no "one be it all" dac in the market today. I am pretty sure the 005 (or any dacs in these price range) is not going to turn my audio world upside down with my jaw dropped to the floor but it might just be a good last 2% better match in my system than my existing dac and this why I am curious to try one.

@twoleftears actually the Kinki studio integrated not only has a great value but it also has a phenomenal sound for its price. I had one. Once you start rolling the opamps, the integrated can perform well beyond expectation. You would be hard pressed to find one at this price range.

The Musetec was on USAudiomart for only 5 days and the asking price was $2900. As it sold rather quickly I’m guessing the asking price was met, or close; that’s just a guess. If so, that’s pretty good, I think. Many folks paid under $3000 for the DAC on sale.

@melm yes, I think that's a great resale value. Thanks to this thread :-) Anyway, the Holo May has a great resale value as well and sells quicker than the 005 did.

Mojo Audio is absolutely correct. I2S is primarily meant for chip-to-chip connection which typically is few cm. The longer the traces the more it suffers signal integrity. However, I think the external connection that most are using with audio DDC/DAC combo throws away the clock and uses the dac's own clock to resample. In such case, the I2S is just passing the data stream over the pins and you always want the least shortest path. As I stated earlier, IMO i2s will only benefit cases where the dac doesn't have a good usb implementation and the server is too noisy. 

@benzman thanks, I can clearly see what you are trying to say. I was in the same boat early, however from experience with various AKM and ESS, including 9038pro, the AKM usually provided a more smoother sound compared to the ESS, while the ESS has always been exceptionally good with resolution. Not saying they aren’t smooth but the AKM was a touch smoother - it’s all depends on the rest of the system though and I am taking about some very good implementation of ESS DAC chips such as the Matrix Element X. I am actually very intrigued by both the Cary dms700 and Musetec 005 and would be highly interested in your opinion when you get them and have some hours on it. 

Up-sampling externally from s/w, like hqplayer, is only helpful when the DAC can work in a NOS mode (non over-sampling), otherwise the sound quality is mostly determined by the SRC within the DAC itself. Good candidates for nos DACs are  T+A, Holo Audio, Denafrips and this is why so many folks use HqP with these DACs. Not sure if the 005 has a nos mode as well. 

I wasn’t talking about the usb cable at all. In fact I didn’t like the WW platinum, neither the AQ diamond in my setup and I have gone through a fair share of 8-10 different brands. My current favorite for the usb cable is the one from NA.

I guess someone will be along soon who has a true I2s output that can be switched between I2s and USB, we live in anticipation.

They exist today - Pink Faun and Antipodes.

You can configure a Pink Faun server to be equipped with both I2S and USB board and both fitted with one of the best clock Ultra OCXO available in the market today. I wanted to fit my DIY server with their I2S card with Ultra OCXO when I had my PS Audio DS and Denafrips Terminator a while back but my current mainstream DAC doesn’t have I2S. I might spring for their USB with Ultra clock but that is almost twice that cost of the JCAT XE I am using today.

The other option is Antipodes K50.

If you really want to see the deep end of the I2S, then I would suggest that you sell your Aurender and look at either PF or the K50 :-)

@benzman I am very curious what did you lack in the Cary dms700 which prompted you to buy the 005 ? The Cary seems to be a very good DAC along with the streamer. Perhaps you wanted different sound ? 

I agree with @klh007 Lumin P1 or the X1 is very good alternative to Cary dms series but they are also lot more expensive. I think P1 runs around $10k, unless you get a substantial discount :-) ?

I found the 005 to be a competent DAC but not for me and so I returned it.  

@romazicon would you please care to elaborate what you didn't like from this dac and what are you using currently in place ?

For Roon core, I would advice a Innuos or Antipodes over the Nucleus. Even the low end Innous would be an improvement and you can directly connect to the DAC. A usb reclocker, like a Phoenix, in between would take things even further. The other option for excellent sound quality at low price point is the Lumin u1 mini streamer if you are using a nas in your network. Some nas can run Roon core as well or you can run the core in your existing laptop.

Anyone had a chance comparing the 005 to a Lampizator DAC ? I had the Denafrips Terminator and much preferred the live sound of a Lampi dac. I suspect that any other DACs I buy might give me a different sound, not necessarily better. Hence it would be useful to know if someone compared. Does the US dealer send one for home audition ?

@car123 what DAC were you using before ?

AFAIK the 005 is NOS

If 005 works primarily in NOS mode, then one might try myriads of HqP filter/modulator combo to see if they like the sound of it. It all depends on personal taste - some like, some just don't.

and there is no facility in the software for up-sampling.

what I meant is up-sampling externally in s/w, like HqP or Roon.

However the Denafrips does up-sample even in NOS mode, there's something I saw on YT about it.

yes, that correct. However, there is a big difference between engaging the nos/os mode. I had the original Terminator and the difference between these two modes is quiet significant, depending how revealing rest of your system is.

While I'm here is anyone using the free power cord that came with the 005?

It's absolute garbage, swap it out for immediate sonic improvements. Seriously it's only fit to use on a kettle.

all audio components, irrespective of their price, comes with garbage power cord. the only difference is with Pass amps where they at least provide a nice heavy 14awg one but off-coarse not to any audiophile standard :-)

@lordmelton for any digital components, DACs, DDCs, music servers, the power supply is going to make the most of the difference and it can either make or break a system. If you are introducing the DDC in between the 005, you should seriously considering powering it with a good LPS to know its audio quality.

@romazicon good post and thanks for the details. I have gone through Amanero usb board in some DACs, like earlier Lampi, and do prefer the XMOS in certain aspect of details and clear sound it provides. There was some explanation (I forgot where) a while back by T+A why they choose Amanero over XMOS in their DAC8 DSD purely for sound quality reasons but at that time the XMOS was lagging behind their next gen processors. I have seen folks chasing infinitely on details (and more details) but in most cases they seem to come at a cost of being musical. I am not trying to judge 005 by any means but trying to see where it fits in the spectrum as you and another person are the only ones I am aware of who preferred other DACs.

As for the Taiko Extreme (which I am very familiar with as I have build my DIY music server using Taiko ATX), you should see this video from Jay. It really tells something very fundamental.

Exactly the same as me, after my Wadia 781i shat the bed.

Many years with Jplay but I've had my Aurender N20 since about 6 months now and it truly is a different ball park from computer audio.

No doubt that the Aurrender N20 is a great music server but computer audio has also taken into different heights in the last yr or so. I am not sure how you powered your server but it IS the MOST critical aspect of what you can get out of it. If you can't power it well enough, you are far better off buying a commercial server.

Taiko runs an optimized Windows 10 ltsc. There has been lots of proprietary optimization in it.

The best driver is no driver and Linux and Apple support this protocol.

Not really. Every OS has a driver for a chipset. The chipset cannot runs its own when its interacting with s/w components, for example when using a music s/w like Roon, the data stream is sent out the the USB chip for which you need a driver (mainly called device driver in the s/w world) that does some critical aspect of sent/receive data from the h/w. Its just that Linux and Apple OSX has UAC2 complaint driver that can work with any USB controller which is UAC2 complaint. Windows doesn’t have a UAC2 complaint driver and hence it needs the chip manufacturer to provide its own driver. There are pros and cons to this approach but its out of topic for this thread. Just know that there is always a driver running, irrespective of what OS you are using.

This is why Linux is used in critical applications.

Linux provides more control to its users since its Open Source. Windows and Mac OSX is not. Linux also provides a way to run it in a Real time manner. I have extensively used Linux for audio applications for years. I started with Windows server 2016 using Jplay, AO2.0, etc and then moved to Linux as it sounded better. After using Linux for several yrs, I tried experimenting with Windows 10 again since Microsoft has a come a long way re-writing many stuff in the OS. Currently I prefer an optimized Windows 10 Pro over Linux purely for sound quality reasons.

@debjit_g I was just using an expensive laptop. Lots of people wouldn't believe me that I could run Windows Server 2016 on a laptop. With Jplay.
 

@lordmelton i actually suspected but you just confirmed. I can see why you would prefer the n20. A laptop is not going to do much. Running Windows and jplay is just one piece of the puzzle, choosing the right h/w and power supply is another. Anyway, I think we are digression from the main thread, so back to 005 for listening impressions:-)

I just read an interesting comparison between 005 and May.

I currently have both 005 and May. The May just edges it in most areas by a small margin, with the exception of layer separation, stage width and depth where the May is significantly better.

BTW what’s Amir’s favourite band or CD?

Topping. Many I know bought those DACs based on those squeaky clean measurements from ASR tells me that it’s the worst purchase they have ever made in their audio journey.

@sns very nice post. I would have gotten the Okto stereo last yr if they were in stock.

As for new interesting contenders in high end/value dacs, the Musician Aquarius looks like a real R2R dac contender.

The Musician Aquarius is another contender to Denafrips/Holo. Under the hood, it looks very similar to Denafrips and the R2R part might come from the same designer but oem’ed. I have heard some good feedback about this dac. Price in the same ballpark of 005.

apart from what @sns said, I would like to add that Musician is not the first company that GIVES and will not be the last. I won't go into names but there has been American company who does the same. So this is not out of the blue. There are so many professional reviewers' listening room is cheap and a mess that they can't even have proper room treatment and yet they own expensive speakers, amps and not to mention multi-thousand $ cables. Its hard to digest that they buy them at the same price a normal consumer would.

As for gifts to reviewers, it’s called an "accommodation" price, essentially the wholesale price--50 to 60 per cent of retail if it was new.

@melm leaving beside what it's called (its actually of no interest to me what they are called), there isn't much difference between 50-60% vs 100%. Its a favor a reviewer gets which a normal consumer doesn't. It doesn't really matter if its 50% or 100%. Its all fine but to say Musician is the company that gives when others doesn't is just not correct. That's my point and I have no skin in the game.

All these Chinese brands are competing with each other in similar price range. There sounds will be in the similar ballpark, some will do this better, others will do something else better. Its just a matter of personal taste and system synergy. With technology advancement, some might replace a slightly higher priced DACs but the real question is will they ever be able to replace the higher priced MSBs or Wadax or Lampizator or Esoterics of the world ? If they do, you have a real winner, otherwise they continue to be midfi stuff at best and there is nothing wrong with that (and I am owned some as well).

The improvements on i2s over usb really depends on two things:

1. DAC's usb implementation - if they have proper galvanic isolation, the chances are the difference will be minuscule, if any.

2. How clean or noisy your music server/streamer usb output is. The noisier the server/streamer, the more difference it will make.

Over the years I have had many USB gadgets (Regen stuff) and different power supplies (both linear and custom designed hybrid smps) on my DIY music server. I have a Matrix X-SPDIF2 DDC as well. Currently I use JCAT XE USB powered using a custom designed LPS (in fact, the entire server uses a high quality power supply) connected to the DAC directly. No streamer or any USB dingleberries or DDC in between. I have used Audiolinux, Euphony, ArchLinux, Ubuntu and many others and have settled on Windows 10 pro that I have slowly optimized over time. In my experience with digital, a good power supply makes most of the difference.

@lordmelton if you really want to take the i2s over hdmi to its maximum level, take a look the Wireworld platinum series hdmi cables. Always have the shortest run possible from the DDC to the DAC. The i2s is the native interface to most dac chip (ESS and AKM) and what the USB board (Amanero or XMOS) inside the DAC does is to convert the async USB data stream to i2s signals.

@debjit_g Totally agree on the usb galvanic isolation. What amazes me is so many of these off the shelf servers/streamers use usb off motherboards! How do they have the nerve to charge these prices for crap usb outputs, this is what gives usb bad name.

@sns welcome to the world of high-end audio. You will probably know this as well but the truth is the product will not sell through dealer markup if you can’t charge a minimum of 10x the price of cogs. Its all driven by sales and marketing - if folks are willing to pay for crappy usb output, the product will sell and companies to keep charging premium for nothing. Just look at the audio cable business.

In my books, price to performance ratio will always win and that is why I personally like companies who are actually trying to bring excellent value at a reasonable cost. Though its not always a determinant factor but looking at the inside of some products and one will quickly realize its value, assuming one is somewhat knowledgeable. This is one of the reason I became interested in the Musetec - its not a ground breaking design but as far as I can see is a well thought out one with quality parts, execution and price to boot.

as for the standard or the lack of it, it has evolved into couple different ones - PS Audio, Rockna, Gustard. Most manufacturers are following PS audio and some, like Denafrips has configurable pins assignments.

Funny thing I still remember when I owned the PS Audio DS dac a while back (bought the DS from PS Audio when it was first released), I bought a Gustard DDC to use with it and which was following its own standard. It wasn't reconfigurable to PS Audio pin-out. I needed a custom hdmi cable to make them work together but no one would build me one. I finally had to DIY'ed my own cable but it did sound a little better and cleaner than the usb input but honestly at that time my diy server wasn't as optimized as it is now. It could have been a totally different outcome if I had experimented it today.

Here is the database of i2s devices 

what made you choose the Sonore ultradigital over others ? Sonore products are ok but never sound bigger in my setup. For small/desktop system, they might be very good but not if you have a bigger one. The Singxer, AudioGD, Gustard, Denafrips has been constantly proven to be the leaders in the ddc market. If your system is already sounding good with usb and you really want to improve over it, you need to get the best ddc.

@sns I don’t think i2s is the solution to all the problems. The only reason why i2s is provided in today’s DAC is just because its a native interface to the DAC chip and hence easier to implement. Something along the lines of MSB pro-isl might be the way to make the DAC almost independent of the server/streamer noise or implement a true usb galvanic isolation, including the ground plane. Another option is Opto USB

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/opto-usb

I just recently completed a new choke filtered double regulated (using many other things and boutique parts like Mundrof caps, active rectifier, high quality wiring) dual output LPS for my JCAT XE USB and Net - the LPS just started burning but the sound is already leaps and bounds ahead of what I was using before (which is also an lps with substantial quality). What I am trying to say here is there is still a lot to be had from USB alone when implemented correctly. Anything I insert in between the server and dac is a step backwards. Today’s usb board, like XMOS, JL Sound, are also far superior than what they used to be two yrs back.

I own a FW SIT3 as well and its a wonderful sweet sounding amp. Another SS Amp that gets my recommendation and sounds very similar to my SET is the Enleum 23R. Very impressed with it.

@lordmelton burn-in of cables and components are real whatever the skeptics says. Most of the time in my systems, the sound becomes intolerable during the break-in process - they would be harsh, no bass, exaggerated midrange, collapsed soundstage and depth, etc.

If you decide to buy the WW hdmi, be patient to give at least 500 hrs to it. Though I don't have direct experience with WW ethernet cables but the Starlight 8 is a good buy and not that expensive.

@debjit_g Yes, I understood that, I was just relating the AQ to WW in general sense, presuming same metallurgy so perhaps same sound signature with all cables of that particular model. Its possible I could be wrong here?

I could be wrong but I do not think you can correlate the sound signature of USB to HDMI to RJ45. They are all different interface and carry different signal and interfaces the component differently.

@lordmelton I am not sure what server you are running. Its possible that the server doesn't have a good optimized usb implementation and that is why you prefer the i2s ? With a good usb implemented on the server side, the tables can turn up-side down or you may not feel that i2s is an improvement. If you want to experiment more on the usb side, try a Innous PhoenixUSB. Yes, its expensive but good stuff. Alternatively, you can replace you server with Innous Statement server which has the Phoenix implemented inside and much more.

https://innuos.com/phoenix-usb/

@sns +1 on your post. This is exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post as well. There is much to be had from the USB and with the right implementation it will sound very good.

Pink Faun builds an I2S bridge (similar to USB card) which can be used with any ATX motherboard with PCIe slots. This for folks on the DIY route.

I wanted to try one for a long time when I had PS Audio DS and the Terminator but it had limitations with the sample rate - when I was looking at it earlier yrs back, it supported upto 192Khz and no DSD.

https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/69-4502-pink-faun-i2s-bridge.html

The LKS converts and reclocks the digital signal. And perhaps more importantly, it does this powered by its own power supply that is separate from the DAC’s power supply.

I am not aware of ANY DDC in the market, regardless of price, that does this. I don’t think any DDC consumes from DAC’s power supply. In fact it would be very awkward to do it. Sometimes the USB is bus powered which means it draws <= 500ma (or <= 900ma for usb3) from the source.

The LKS can perform its singular function without drawing power away from the DAC’s other responsibilities. I think there would be less noise kicked back to the DAC’s power supply as well.

 

@debjit_g I think there may be some confusion. The L.K.S Audio USB-100 USB Audio Interface can be purchssed with a separate linear power supply, the LPS-25-USB. I don’t think the description meant that the power was from usb.

@dbb There is no bus powered ddc that I am aware of which draws power from the DAC. Typically all of them are powered from the source. When ddc have their own power supply, which many does, the vbus is typically used for a handshake on the receiving end. Most DDCs doesn’t output USB but when it does, like the Innous PhoenixUSB, the transmitting end and depending on the DAC, the power is either drawn from the vbus or with its own external power supply when available. Moreover when the DDC is not outputting USB, like the L.K.S, there is no way to draw power from other transmit interface, like i2s, or AES/EBU or SPDIF.

In any case, they don’t draw anything from the DAC. Its the receiving end that draws the power, for example, in earlier USB based DACs, the USB board would be bus powered from its source, typically  a music server or a streamer or a ddc but designers have gotten smart and use their own power supplies to power them nowadays.

@car123 though I don't have direct experience with ultradigital but I have had Sonore products, Singxer and other DDCs before. I would venture a guess and say that a Singxer or a Denafrips would be at a much higher level than the ultradigital. Since you prefer the I2S route, I think you will get better results with better DDCs. Its worth a shot.

I have a mixed feeling with the SR Purple fuses. I had all Orange fuses upgraded to the Purple but now I am back to either stock or orange fuse on some of them. I would suggest that you run it for couple days and then reverse the direction - the sound will either deteriorate or improve. Run this couple of days and repeat the exercise just to make sure. When you are sure of the direction, compare it with the stock fuse (or anything you had before) to see which you like better.

If you follow ASR, the rule of thumb is the DAC will likely sound great if it measures poorly over there 🤣 God knows what will happen if they start measuring Pass amps and tube gears.

On a serious note, you can never win a battle over there and neither they can win a battle over here. It’s a never ending story that started ever since the dawn of the day and will continue till apocalypse ☠️
 

After all this is a hobby. Don’t take things seriously and personally. The sky is not going to fall apart if the published spec doesn’t meet any standards. Who cares.

@lordmelton this actually adds more confusion as to who has what version and how do they differentiate in sound or which one sounds better.

it would be worthwhile if the manufacturer clarifies when they switched and why its not called out - hardware changes needing a board respin will usually have a version label, like v1 vs v2, or similar by most manufacturers.

however,

One actual fact that has arisen is that there are two versions of the 005. Checkout the pics below and note that one has what seems to be an off the shelf Amanero Board with two oscillators. Whilst the other has an Amanero Board with three oscillators. I believe the latter is Musetec's custom Amanero Board, so I surmise this is the later model.

Both the USB boards has 3 oscillators - it’s just that they are of different type.

Jeez can u people read! I bought the dac because I own the earlier iteration the lks 004. Which I like very much. I bought the dac because I like his work. I like my lks more than my holo spring v1 kte. I am not trying to slam or put down musetec. I’m sorry some of u are not happy with an outside independent review. I would love for one of you audiogon members to send your 005 dac to a different person that could conduct independent testing. I hope jinbo can correct this anomaly or someone can show that Amir’s measurements are a one off. I think jinbo will correct the dac and fix the issue. I know he takes pride in his work. Who knows this whole episode could be a win win for everyone. I certainly hope so. Any anger directed at me is misguided. I have stated more than once how good jason and Midwest audio have been. Just put on some good music and relax.

stop accusing everybody because some individuals said something to you. I had put an honest question and the fact that you are going in circles says a lot. Does it really matter what you think of the designer, how good and faithful he is or how good the dealer is ? The question is about a DAC you purchased based on certain technical numbers and knowingly would get ASR to review. You didn’t even bother to listen to it before sending it back and yet you say you have and like the 004 ? Something just doesn’t add up. I am not sure about your intentions but for the record I don’t even own the 005 nor any LKS products.

Otherwise, pursue a set of measurements for each and every component and be secure in knowing you have the best measuring system.

and possibly risk the lack of musical enjoyment factor that we all are primarily after 😁 If that’s not the goal, then perhaps they are in the wrong hobby.

@sns nicely put.

I’m genuinely curious why there are some audiophiles that don’t like to hold companies to account for their marketing?

I bet the list would be extremely large.

If you want to enjoy music, the key is to audition in your home, in your listening environment and with your set of gears and ears. There is no substitute, no matter what.

I agree that listening is important. For example, Revel Speakers uses extensive measurements in their product development but only release products when they come out on top of double blind listening tests against the competition. Personally, I want gear that sounds good *and* is well engineered. Call me a perfectionist if you will. This is the purpose of having equipment measured. I’d like to know whether I’m being sold a bill of goods or buying state of the art.

For many, listening is the most effective way to find out if it sounds good or not, for some, measurements are the sole criteria, while some lie in the category of doing a bit of both. Nothing wrong with any of the approaches as long as you enjoy the hobby. Horses for courses....