Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@sns

Just curious, did you ever experiment with extremely short ethernet runs? This seems like it would decrease emi/rfi noise.

I look forward to hearing your results with the optical rendu and the 005.

@dbb I have all Audioquest Vodka, longest cable 1.5m, only one that length, rest 1m. I've been told its the connectors where the emi/rfi gets in. Regardless, optical will get rid of all, I expect all optical streaming will be de facto in near future. The Sonore also has dual femto clocks which is definite improvement.

@sns You are going to love the opticalRendu with the 005. That is what I use, and it is something that I have zero desire to improve upon. It has been about a year now since I bought 2 opticalRendu's and it has been a great choice. My fibre comes out of my Ubiquiti Networks $199 Network Switch. Though this switch is close to $300 now with the parts shortages.

@yyzsantabarbara  I'll get the opticalmodule at some point in future, unless I get Sonictransporter I9 which has opticamodule built in. I considered the Signature rendu se optical, but at $4800 is stiff price to pay for built in high quality LPS. I'll power mine with Uptone Audio JS2 which is fine lps, expect I'll get most, if not all signature sq for much less money. Are you powering with 7V?

It would be nice to see sonore come up with router or switch with opticalmodule built in. I presume sonore has optimum fiber interface at this moment in time.

I bought the "audiophile" LPS from Sonore for 1 of the OpticalRendu's and the cheaper LPS from them for the second one. I could not tell a difference between the 2.

Sonore Audiophile Linear Power Supply and DC4X Cable – Small Green Computer

SGC 7v Linear Power Supply 25W (for opticalRendu, ultraRendu, microRen – Small Green Computer

Same goes for the USB cable that I got from WyWire vs another one which was not any particular audio brand. Now this could be a function of the DACs I tried them with. The Benchmark DAB3B, Gustard X26 Pro, Topping D90SE, and Musetec 005.

It would be nice to see sonore come up with router or switch with opticalmodule built in. I presume sonore has optimum fiber interface at this moment in time.

I use the following to convert from Ethernet to Fibre

Amazon.com: YuanLey 11 Port Gigabit PoE Switch, 8 PoE+ Port 1000Mbps, 2 Gigabit Uplink, 1 SFP Port, 120W 802.3af/at, Metal, Qos, Unmanaged Plug and Play AI Smart Detection Ethernet Switch : Electronics

The other one I got is out of stock, but it was almost like this one/

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Networks UniFi Industrial Switch, 10-Port Durable Switch with High-Power 802.3bt PoE++ (USW-Industrial) : Electronics

I didn't like audiophile switch with my setup, and suspect I'd not like any switch. I've bridged second ethernet out of modded mac mini using thunderbolt port. This way I can go direct out from server to streamer or FMC (later opticalmodule). A second ethernet port is pretty rare in servers, Antipodes and SGC I9 only ones coming to mind.

This direct connection to end point/streamer was pretty major upgrade for sound quality. In my setup, adding switch means signal has to detour through the added switch and another ethernet cable. 

Your setup sounds more audiophile level than mine. I am leveraging the fact that analog noise cannot travel through fibre. I use the fibre just before the DAC and do not care about anything prior to the fibre. My ROON Core is running on a noisy DELL PC hidden in a closet. Again, the fibre should kill any gremlins trying to get into my DAC.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55217-sonore-opticalrendu/page/27/#comment-963599 In this link John Swenson makes case for how everything in network prior to optical conversion affects accuracy of clocks in Sonore optical module and rendu, and all ethernet and optical devices. It seems the entire network important, even with FMC.

Not bothered about streaming at the moment but I've extensively listened to this fiber box and can say it's very well made and sounds wonderful. However I've never listened to the Sonore.

I've seen that, don't quite understand the ethernet out scheme, point of FMC is to use fiber cable. This isn't FMC, rather just a filter.

It's fiber optic isolation. The input and output are isolated by a fiber optic cable. It's similar to what Sonore do but they use 3 or more boxes to do it IIRC.

Okay all of you happy DA-005 owners, who has owned their DAC the longest and can comment on reliability?  Maybe it's too soon to know but it's the only question I still have about this wonderful DAC and hope I never have to find out. 

I don't know about the 005 reliability (melm can comment better here), but my DA-004 is probably the best quality circuit board I have worked on.  Very thick board with thick excellent quality tracings and high quality very durable solder holes (through hole barrels).  All parts are definitely not cheap parts.

Thanks @auxinput .  That's encouraging!

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55217-sonore-opticalrendu/page/27/#comment-963599 In this link John Swenson makes case for how everything in network prior to optical conversion affects accuracy of clocks in Sonore optical module and rendu, and all ethernet and optical devices. It seems the entire network important, even with FMC.

I have a EtherRegen that I believe was designed by John Swenson. I am not too happy with the ER purchase because it does not seem to improve my RJ45 streaming on my KRELL K-300i integrated amp's internal DAC. Now that DAC is my lowest quality DAC (pretty good) so that may have something to do with it. 

After reading the linked thread, which contained thoughts as to why Fibre Optical is not enough. John Swenson lays out his argument for using another convertor before the OpticalRendu. I happen to have the EtherRegen to do exactly what he suggests. 

My original setup:

-Ubiquiti Networks Switch with 2 SFP cages using Fibre to Sonore OpticaRendu to Musetec 005 via USB

My John Swenson setup

-Ubiquiti Networks Switch using Ethernet (RJ45) to EtherRegen Side B (RJ45)

- Fibre Optical from EtherRegen Side A to Sonore OpticalRendu to Musetec 005 via USB

I did my comparisons using my headphones in the office. This setup has my most revealing gear and is better components than my 2-channel speaker system. A very revealing setup and ideal to hear gear:

CODA 07x preamp + Musetec 005 + CODA #8 amp + Audience FrontRow speaker cable + RAAL SR1a headphones (Audience AU24 SE XLR preamp | DAC | amp).

I have been using Moving Picture by Rush in hi-res local FLAC files as my go to evaluation tool since I know this music so well. It also sounds really good sonically.

The Original Setup sounded great as usual. A very big powerful sound with clarity, detail, and great enjoyment of the performance.

The John Swenson setup sounded a little different. This was rather surprising since I was a flat earther on the Fibre streaming being all that was needed. The sound did not seem as big as with the original setup. However, the sound seemed more focused. Like a lens on a camera. The picture (or sound) seemed to be clearer. Now this was not as big as going from my microRendu to the OpticalRendu, but it was a noticeable improvement. I think I am convinced to keep the EtherRegen in this position in the streaming chain.

I have an orphaned LPS that I used to use with my old microRendu. I think I will look into using that LPS with a new OpticalModule for my downstairs OpticalRenud streaming. 

This is some very good streaming sound I am getting. Thanks for the link posted above.

This is all about getting full potential of 005, for us streamers so many avenues, worthwhile to explore the many available.

I've owned the 005 for almost year and a half, not a single issue. Dac's in general are one of the most reliable audio components. Heat is greatest enemy of audio equipment, 005 doesn't generate much. I'd be surprised that any 005 will suffer failure in coming years. While I've not opened mine up, photos show quality in all components and circuit boards. Updating usb board is likely the only routine maintenance ever required.

@jc4659

When I contemplated buying the LKS 004 in the Spring of 2017 I felt like a pioneer to be importing an almost unknown Chinese DAC without any North American presence. It had been recommended for its SQ and as a great bargain by someone I trusted. I did my due diligence reading all I could about the 004 and even the 003 going back to about 2014. And there was a lot to read as each of these became the subject of serious modifications so that there were plenty of folks who knew the quality of these DACs from the insides. Everything I read confirmed its quality of build and quality of parts. In all I read there was, IIRC, not a single reported case of failure. Moreover, the modular way all of these are built, and including the 005, were there to be a problem it is relatively easy to lift out a board and send it for repair. In the 005 it is 4 boards, each plugging in to the next. It is probably cheaper to send a board to China than to send an entire DAC across the US. But given the full history you’ll likely never have to do that. All of which is to say that was enough to allay any reservations I may have had.

As for the 005, I think of those contributing here it is @sns who has had the 005 the longest going back to a Black Friday purchase in 2020. It seems to be working fine. As for what @sns wrote about updating, he is, I’m certain, talking about USB software updates that Musetec has made easier on the 005 than on earlier DACs. It is the USB section that interacts with the computer. The ability to upgrade means that it can keep up with OS changes and not become obsolete.

One more random thought since there has been so much discussion the last few days about improving the digital/audio environment for the 005. I recall in the vinyl days (and I am still there) if we had a really good turntable, which is where the music begins, giving it a better power supply, a better cartridge, better interconnects and/or a better phono pre we would discover that the TT could find more and more music in those grooves. Similarly, we may not yet know how good the Musetec really is. The same may be said for other fine DACs. Each time I have improved my DAC’s digital environment--with a DLNA bridge, a network switch, etc., I got more out of it. Others on this thread have done so much more and have found the DAC to respond. The DAC has not yet been found to be the limiting factor.

@melm thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences regarding the anticipated reliability of LKS / Musetec DACs. I am still shocked and amazed at how good redbook cd sounds coming from an old Meridian CD player used as a transport and limping along the way into the DA-005. I can only imagine the step up in sound using a contemporary dedicated transport which I am likely to purchase later this year. The big challenge at the moment is getting commensurate sound quality from streaming. I currently use a MacBook Pro running Audirvana into an Uptone IsoRegen. Files stored on the Mac sound very good but streaming can be a bit disappointing so I'm watching what others are doing in this regard i.e. bridge, switch, etc. A dedicated streamer is priority unless the Meridian takes a nose dive.  Your point that the DA-005 is yet to be found as a limiting factor is also very encouraging!

@jc4659  As for what others are doing, here’s my own streaming set-up. I have made a relatively inexpensive (compared to others I read of) system providing vey good SQ. Music files are on a 4TB NAS running to an SOtM sMS-200ultra neo (used) as a digital bridge to the DAC. I have a small laptop running Jriver and one of its remote apps used either on my phone or on an Android pad. The beauty (to me) of the bridge is that the computer directs the music from the server to the bridge to the DAC without going through the computer. So no computer noise, I think. I don’t use a decrapifier, though some with a system like mine do. Jriver brings a lot of conveniences. The NAS and Jriver are accessible to a desk top and by wifi anywhere else in the house.

I neglected to say that the "digital bridge" in my description is a DNLA bridge.

For those interested in a possible purchase of this dac, there is now a US dealer-Midwest Audio in Mishawaka, Indiana.  Midwestaudiophile.com.   I became aware of them from an add at USaudiomart.com  I ordered a dac from them a couple of weeks ago for $3199.  The dac was shipped from Shanghai and received by me in 9 days.  I believe when I ordered they had a silver unit in Indiana inventory, but I wanted a black unit so it was shipped from China.  I have no affiliation with the seller.  
 

I am currently burning in the dac, so I will defer comments about its performance until it is fully burned in.  The sound is changing considerably as it burns in.  
 

I do have a few questions: How long will full burn in take?  After it is fully burned in, should standby mode be used when not in use, or should it be powered down?  Is the USB input the best choice vs aes or something else?   Do most find the slow filter preferable?  I can upsample with my streamer, a Lumin U1.  Have you found that upsampling produced improved quality, or is native resolution the way to go?  

@blang

Thanks for the info about the US dealer and congrats on your purchase.

As for break-in, I responded to someone else:

In his first post after receiving the Musetec, @pt999 compared it to his fully broken in May Holo KTE DAC. After one week of break-in he decided to return the unit. He preferred the May, apparently by a good margin. In his second post, written after 16 days and 350 hours* of break-in he changed his mind and decided not to return it. He writes that, "The 2 DACs sound very similar." You can do a search for his full post in this thread.

As for stand-by mode, the factory says it doesn’t matter. As I have tubes in my amp and pre, I go to standby and turn it on when I turn my tubes on.
The care with with the USB in put is designed makes it the first choice IMO and that of some others. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

I used slow because sns said it’s better and have never looked back.

I experimented with upsampling and did not find it useful so I’m at native. Again, others may chime in

@blang I saw that ad in USaudiomart as well, thought it may have been a dealer demo, seems I was incorrect. Apos audio used to carry 005, where I purchased mine, don't know why they discontinued carrying it.

Some report up to 400 hours, I didn't do any serious listening until I had somewhere around 100. Standby is proper, suspect more wear and tear on power supply if constantly powering down. 005 USB state of art, I've never felt the need to try i2s which I have available setup for. I prefer slow filter, although I don't hear major difference between the two.

As far as upsampling, never felt the need, YMMV. Try both and see what you prefer.

There was a short article about Midwest Audio in Stereophile. The article located it in South Bend IN, of which Mishawaka is a suburb. Finally a US dealer; that’s news

@blang I am currently running everything native, no upsampling.  I have over 100 hours actual listening on my DA-005 and hear very little change at this point.  This DAC is clear and smooth/fluid, musical and natural.  I place mine in standby mode when not using.  I have also disconnected all reclockers; had a W4S reclocking digital output from my CD player using optical in/out and an Uptone IsoRegen reclocking the USB.  These had offered improvement when used with my previous DAC, an Ayre Codex.  Much to my surprise, music sounds absolutely wonderful without the reclockers!  I plan to listen this way for a while and then replace each one and see if I hear an improvement.  If anything, I sensed greater dynamics without the reclockers.  Let us know your honest impressions when you're ready.

@jc4659 

Can you help with a question asked of me about break in.   About how long did it take you to accumulate 100 hours of actual listening?  Thanks.

By the way, are you continuing to count?

@melm I'd say close to 6 weeks. I'm slow since I toggle between analog and digital. Plus I have two other smaller systems.  I have stopped counting since I am no longer hearing noticeable changes in the Musetec DAC. I'd imagine one can reasonably expect to break in adequately in 2-3 weeks rather than the 6 it took me but I knew this DAC was special almost from day 1 when I heard its clarity.

Yesterday I posted a new photo in my virtual system and have been contemplating reconfiguring my set up.  The metal shelf hovering above my Linn is for my laptop but I'm not crazy about this location so I might split my racks similar to what I had previously.

Now have a number of listening sessions with Opticalrendu and further burn in on a number of other upgrades, still have perhaps 50 hours left for full burn in.

Not going in depth on listening impressions yet, but the reach and depth of 005 is something to behold! I really thought I was nearing optimal streaming and cd rip setup prior to Opticalrendu and other mods and burn in. Turns out substantially better sound was left on table. I now have nearly limitless noise floor, images appear out of of an immense nothingness in a manner hard to describe. This level of resolution and transparency is everything I've ever imagined in nearly thirty years as audiophile and building high end systems.

A new level of effortlessness I've previously only heard with high end vinyl playback, this is exposure of superior micro dynamic presence of 005 along with DHT valves. Only nit at this point is slightest bit of less than natural timbre, expecting improvement on this front with further burn in of  300B and 101D tubes along with Takman resistors and Audio Note caps in pre.

005 as source makes this level of sound possible, rest of system is there to serve this source.

@sns As I posted earlier, I put my EtherRegen in front of my OpticalRendu. I removed the Fibre connection from my Ubiquiti Network Switch and used the EtherRegen’s Fibre (so B > A on the ER). This setup was an improvement from direct Network Switch. The sound seemed slightly more focused or clear.

I ordered the Sonore OptcalModule to do a similar setup with my second Sonore OpticalRendu in the Livingroom system.

I am done with my streaming.

BTW - I did this based on the paper John Swenson wrote and was posted earlier on this thread.

Andrew at Small Green Computer is more agnostic than John about network improvements in front of Opticalrendu. I spoke with him last week about when Opticalmodule will come back into stock, he only stated it would make very little difference vs. generic FMC. I'm more in line with John as I'll either get Opticalmodule or server with optical out in front of Opticalrendu. I'm also seriously considering getting Network Acoustics Eno to fit between my router and server. My audiophile switch didn't work well there, perhaps Eno will provide benefit. These efforts will complete my network experiments. I could sit right where I'm at for the long term, curiosity as to 005's potential pushes me forward.

005 is first source component in nearly thirty years of audio that doesn't feel like a limiting factor in attaining highest possible resolving system.

@melm I was hoping to give a full review of the 005 this week but alas no, it still won't give up it's jewels, except to show me glimpses of it's brilliance.

What I can confirm however is that this is a magnificent DAC. Reason I'm saying this is EVERY format, DSD, FLAC, WAV has their own circuit.

I know this because initially I was using my FLAC library and then after about two weeks I started playing WAV, it was terrible. Took another week for the WAV to sound well.

No other DAC has every behaved like this and I can confirm other people's comments that the 005 never gets out of it's depth.

Reason I'm saying this is EVERY format, DSD, FLAC, WAV has their own circuit.

I know this because initially I was using my FLAC library and then after about two weeks I started playing WAV, it was terrible. Took another week for the WAV to sound well.

I don't think this is actually true.  FLAC is a music data file compression method.  Your player will read the FLAC file and uncompress the data on the fly.  The actual data stream that is sent to the DAC needs to be in either PCM or DSD format.  That being said, DSD could be handled differently inside the DAC digital receiver section.

@yyzsantabarbara When you become not done with streaming, if you like, I can share my experience with USB chaining beyond the oR to improve the listening experience. 

One of my first audiophile experiences was listening to headphones on the Benchmark DAC2 HGC.  At first, I didn't wholeheartedly like the sound because it was so different from what I was used to but over time, the sound became addictive.  So when Benchmark came out with the DAC3 HGC, I bought it a month later.  I currently own the DAC3 DX. This is the only variant with an AES input. I have a Grimm MU1 streamer that is optimized for AES. 

Over the past 2 years, I've bought other DACs to try to dethrone the DAC3.  I've tried an RME, a Denafrips, and an SMSL.  Given my musical preferences, none really came close. Enter the Musetec 005. I'm currently burning in the 005 and other cable upgrades so I will reserve final judgement but I'm 95% sure the 005 is the new king. 

After everything settles, including the new network switch coming next week, I will switch back to the DAC3 to determine what I would miss without the DAC3. 

@sns My issue is having too many boxes in the system. My son is already sitting on my office audio rack (with my blessing) and accidently kicking some of my streaming gear.

@sirnui I also have the Benchmark DAC3B (owned the DAC3 HGC, the DAC2, DAC1). The DAC3B is a little too hot on top compared to the 005. I love the DAC3B for what I am now using it. However, if you try to use it with a hot speaker, like my RAAL SR1a headphones, the sound becomes fatiguing. Put the 005 in place of the DAC3B and the system will sound great. The 005 is not shy on top and not missing anything, it just sounds right.

Even though my DAC3B is not perfect, the DAC3B and the 005 are my long-term DACs.

@yyzsantabarbara  It seems separate or discrete components and increasing  complexity always goes hand in hand with our ever evolving systems. Many years ago stereo receivers were state of art, an all in one component. Then along comes integrated amps and discrete source equipment, then we separate preamps from amps, and we have phono preamps and phono SUT. I guess we shouldn't expect any different in streaming. Crazy, but there are ten separate actions to get my system up and running! Even an experienced audiophile would be extremely challenged to get my system up and running!

@auxinput Hi, I can only tell you what I heard and I've never experienced this behaviour from any DAC before.

@lordmelton You are likely hearing something different about how the player is processing FLAC files when compared to uncompressed WAV type files.

@lordmelton  auxinput correct in that there is no separate circuit FLAC vs WAV. WAV files could theoretically sound better than FLAC since FLAC requires a bit more processing which may result in a bit more jitter. Very few claim to hear a difference between these two formats. All my cd rips stored in AIFF format, Apple version of WAV so I'm of no help here.

Perhaps the difference you're hearing is jitter related, but WAV should sound better than  FLAC unless you prefer that bit of added jitter. If there was a difference, I'd expect the WAV to sound a bit more precise, this may not be preferred sound quality.

@auxinput @sns Please re-read my initial post I am not having a problem. What I said was that for the first two weeks I only played FLAC and DSD but after the first two weeks when I started to play WAV it sounded like it had to break in again, only for WAV.

There is no issues now and there was never an issue, everything sounds great, but I heard what I heard. I don't know why it's such a big deal.

Well, I'm still curious if FLAC does indeed sound different than WAV since some report it does. I'm going to experiment with ripping some of my cds in FLAC and compare to AIFF.

My past experience revealed a distinct difference on how some players or software deal with FLAC.  On some software players, FLAC performance is significantly lower than normal WAV.  I think I was using an older version of MediaMonkey and it has lower resolution when playing FLAC files.  When I tested Jriver, there was no difference between FLAC and WAV.  Since the player/software has to uncompress the FLAC data on the fly and then clock/transmit that to the DAC, the player logic can be different and this can definitely affect resolution of the audio.

There have already been 2 comparisons of the Musetec with the $4800-5600 Holo May DAC.  However in another thread here reference was made to a comparison at head-fi to the $13,000 Mola-Mola Tambaqui favoring the Musetec.  As I thought it would be of interest to anyone reading this thread, here it is:

.(29) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC (and headphone amp) | Page 10 | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org

Full disclosure -- the guy who wrote the head-fi review is now a Musetec dealer :)

@arafiq  Two ways to took at that, financial interest or they really like dac. I assume vast majority of dealers like the products they carry. And I doubt lot of financial incentive with carrying the Musetec which has relatively low retail price. I presume Mola Mola would have much greater margin for profit.

Still, listening is best way to determine if audio equipment fits one's needs.

@sns I agree with everything you're saying. But still it's wise to disclose such information upfront. 

@arafiq

To add to your store of information and knowledge, IIUC the reviewer is a manufacturer of, among other things, an ethernet filter held in very high regard on this board. He continually needs and uses a DAC of very high quality to test his products as they develop and are improved. He used to use the Tambaqui. He sold it after hearing the Musetec. Apparently (and you’ll see this if you read the head-fi thread) it wasn’t a close call. As he sells other, related, items and as there was no one selling the Musetec in the United Kingdom he arranged to become a dealer there.

@ fl_guy :

There are many preamps you can consider using with your Musetec 005. I personally recommend the Holo Audio SERENE preamp, KTE version. I own it and find it to be a very solid performer all around. Well-engineered, using quality parts, the SERENE preamplifier features two sets of XLR fully-balanced outputs, one pair of which is specifically designed to drive low-impedance headphones, using a custom-made headphone cable obtainable from Kitsune HiFi, the U.S. agent for Holo Audio; the second, higher-impedance XLR pair, serves power amplifiers / self-powered speakers. The Serene also has a full set of unbalanced RCA inputs and outputs, as well as a remote control.

This preamp is on a par sonically with the Musetec 005. Although the Musetec has its own volume control, it is the usual digital variety, which sacrifices resolution at lower volume settings - therefore, it is better to disable (bypass) this built-in digital volume control altogether and instead use the Musetec’s uncompromised full line-level output to drive a quality analog preamplifier.

@erictal4075 

Are you using the Holo preamplifier with a Musetec?  

You are quite right that, but for temporary use, the volume control of the Musetec (and most other DACs) should not be used as they constrain the dynamics if used beyond just a few db.  As @sns has pointed out, beyond feeding this DAC with the cleanest stream of bits you can, it will benefit from good components following it.  In that vein I have always recommended a tube preamplifier as I have always found it helpful to a system to have tubes somewhere in the mix and the preamp is a logical place.  But if there is a special synergy between the Holo preamp and the Musetec, that's a valuable contribution.

@ melm :

Yes, I just bought a Musetec from the sole U.S. dealer in Indiana, and I have its balanced outputs feeding my Holo Audio KTE Serene preamplifier - which, in turn, via its fully-balanced XLR outputs, is driving a pair of self-powered ATC (Acoustic Transducer Company, England) 3-way studio monitor loudspeakers. I am operating my Musetec as described in my post above yours - it is a very impressive-sounding Sigma Delta-style DAC straight out of the box: I received it just this past Tuesday, February 1, 2022, and I’m now allowing it to break in.