Some history: I was the OP on a four year old thread about the Chinese LKS MH-DA004 DAC. It achieved an underground buzz. The open architecture of its predecessor MH-DA003 made it the object of a lot of user mods, usually to its analog section, rolling op amps or replacing with discrete. The MH-DA004 with its new ESS chips and JFET analog section was called better then the modified older units. It has two ES9038pro DAC chips deliberately run warm, massive power supply, powered Amanero USB board, JFET section, 3 Crystek femtosecond clocks, Mundorf caps, Cardas connectors, etc., for about $1500. For this vinyl guy any reservation about ESS chips was resolved by the LKS implimentaion, but their revelation of detail was preserved, something that a listener to classic music especially appreciated. I made a list of DACs (many far more expensive) it was compared favorably to in forums. Modifications continued, now to clocks and caps. Components built to a price can be improved by costlier parts and the modifiers wrote glowingly of the SQ they achieved.
Meanwhile, during the 4 years after release of the MH-DA004, LKS (now Musetec) worked on the new MH-DA005 design, also with a pair of ES9038pro chips. This time he used more of the best components available. One torroidal transformer has silver plated copper. Also banks of super capacitors that act like batteries, solid silver hookup wire, 4 femtoclocks each costing multiples of the Crysteks, a revised Amanero board, more of the best European caps and a new partitioned case. I can't say cost NO object, but costs well beyond. A higher price, of course. Details at http://www.mu-sound.com/DA005-detail.html
The question, surely, is: How does it sound? I'm only going to answer indirectly for the moment. I thought that the MH-DA004 was to be my last DAC, or at least for a very long time. I was persuaded to part with my $$ by research, and by satisfaction with the MH-DA004. Frankly, I have been overwhelmed by the improvement; just didn't think it was possible. Fluidity, clarity, bass extension. A post to another board summed it up better than I can after listening to piano trios: "I have probably attended hundreds of classical concerts (both orchestral and chamber) in my life. I know what live sounds like in a good and bad seat and in a good and mediocre hall. All I can say is HOLY CRAP, this sounds like the real thing from a good seat in a good hall. Not an approximation of reality, but reality."
Romazicon's experience just goes to show how much synergy matters in system. He has a very resolving system and I believe his impressions legitimate.
I too have seen less than stellar reviews of earlier iterations of Amamarro usb boards. I've no fault with board in 005 with my streaming setup, YMMV as Romazicon did. Just goes to show how incredibly complex streaming setups can be, some recipes work, some don't. I don't think he heard full potential of 005 in his setup just as other setups may not allow other dacs to reach their full potential.
The one thing I found interesting is the smearing he heard, I've tried various streaming networks since getting 005, never heard any of this. I did hear excessive precision with one setup. I'm expecting to hear a near sota server in my system in short order, should be interesting. I'm also in process of building/modding new server at present, so another point of reference.
@lordmelton@laoman I just hooked up and listen to my Tambaqui today for about 30 minutes after letting it heat up on my amp. Not that I can say anything definitive other then I really like it. Haven't A/B tested the 005 with it, but right out of the gates I was like "this is something different AND good" when shotgunning it against the 005.
Taiko runs an optimized Windows 10 ltsc. There has been lots of proprietary optimization in it.
The best driver is no driver and Linux and Apple support this protocol.
Not really. Every OS has a driver for a chipset. The chipset cannot runs its own when its interacting with s/w components, for example when using a music s/w like Roon, the data stream is sent out the the USB chip for which you need a driver (mainly called device driver in the s/w world) that does some critical aspect of sent/receive data from the h/w. Its just that Linux and Apple OSX has UAC2 complaint driver that can work with any USB controller which is UAC2 complaint. Windows doesn’t have a UAC2 complaint driver and hence it needs the chip manufacturer to provide its own driver. There are pros and cons to this approach but its out of topic for this thread. Just know that there is always a driver running, irrespective of what OS you are using.
This is why Linux is used in critical applications.
Linux provides more control to its users since its Open Source. Windows and Mac OSX is not. Linux also provides a way to run it in a Real time manner. I have extensively used Linux for audio applications for years. I started with Windows server 2016 using Jplay, AO2.0, etc and then moved to Linux as it sounded better. After using Linux for several yrs, I tried experimenting with Windows 10 again since Microsoft has a come a long way re-writing many stuff in the OS. Currently I prefer an optimized Windows 10 Pro over Linux purely for sound quality reasons.
I'm looking forward to your report-comparison to the $13,400 Tambaqui. They've already been compared on this thread by someone. I love these David v. Goliath trials.
Exactly the same as me, after my Wadia 781i shat the bed.
Many years with Jplay but I've had my Aurender N20 since about 6 months now and it truly is a different ball park from computer audio.
No doubt that the Aurrender N20 is a great music server but computer audio has also taken into different heights in the last yr or so. I am not sure how you powered your server but it IS the MOST critical aspect of what you can get out of it. If you can't power it well enough, you are far better off buying a commercial server.
@debjit_g I was just using an expensive laptop. Lots of people wouldn't believe me that I could run Windows Server 2016 on a laptop. With Jplay.
@lordmelton i actually suspected but you just confirmed. I can see why you would prefer the n20. A laptop is not going to do much. Running Windows and jplay is just one piece of the puzzle, choosing the right h/w and power supply is another. Anyway, I think we are digression from the main thread, so back to 005 for listening impressions:-)
I just read an interesting comparison between 005 and May.
I currently have both 005 and May. The May just edges it in most areas by a small margin, with the exception of layer separation, stage width and depth where the May is significantly better.
@debjit_gLots of people will have opinions and there will be strengths and differences. I haven't heard the May neither the Terminator but by what I've seen online these two together with the 005 are all well deserved.
Other considerations will persist however. I chose the 005 because I wanted the very best value for money SINGLE box DAC. Same decision pointed me to the Aurender N20 instead of the N30. For several reasons I need to live in my condo presently and space is limited.
I know the Termy is a single box but a big one and it really needs the DDC too.
I'd love to check out the Pass Labs 3 box pre-amp but I'd need to move the wife out.
The philosophy that has always been set in stone in this thread by @melmand all the usual suspects is listen to the May and if you think it's better buy it. If not get the 005 and pocket the extra $3k.
An extra $3k spent on the 005 makes it difficult to beat otherwise you've turned the May into a $10k DAC. Fine if you want to spend that and have the space.
That comment from the link and quoted by debjit_g, saying the May, a DAC that has not beat other DACs in the width and depth of stage, makes me think the 005 may not of been fully broken-in in that comparison.
This post comparing the Musetec and the Holo May was by teknorob23. He had earlier written here that he preferred the Musetec to the $13,400 Mola Mola Tambaqui. And, of course, I’m certain based on a lot of reading on the subject that some will prefer the Tambaqui.
I’m beginning to think even more seriously seriously about what he and others have written that there are a number of DACs in this "class" and the choice will very much depend on preferences and associated components.
The May verses the 005 seems to be discussed on a few threads here. I just posted this on one of those threads:
@Technorob said: “I currently have both 005 and May. The May just edges it in most areas by a small margin, with the exception of layer separation, stage width and depth where the May is significantly better.”
I will throw in my thoughts. I can definitely see Technorob’s point of view on “layer separation, stage width and depth” being different on the May, but not better. (To my old ear, the other aspects were not “just edged[s]” out by the May but too close to call.)
It is a matter of perspective, double entendre intended. Many, if not most audiophiles, highly value layer separation, stage width and depth. The underlying frame of reference for most is probably amplified non-acoustic electronically produced music that exists only in recordings, not in real space. Big clear layering and sound stage sounds great with a lot of non-accoustic recorded music and will be preferred by many.
In my opinion, the May does, compared to the 005, provide an unreal feel of spacial separation and distance at the same time. This is like seeing an image get bigger as you walk further away. As a real concert goer, this is a distortion, even though many will love the effect. It also gains separation by missing natural sound between instruments
I will explain. My perspective is what I hear at a live unamplified concert. If you want maximum separation of instruments and voices, you would have to be very close to the stage if not actually on it. Even then the sound would only be sharply separated and layered if you were listening with your head physically in between instruments.
Realistic perspective is similar in both sight and sound. When you walk closer to a destination the visual details in you visual field naturally become more visible and separate. It’s the same with sound. When you walk closer to the stage, the sound field gets bigger and instruments sound further apart in space. There is some layering partly depending on your elevation, but nothing in the realm of “audiophile” layering. Sound naturally blends together in the real world. Yes, 3-d palpability exists in the real world, but not in the way many audiophiles love or imagine.
. . . I said in the review I would report back after a few weeks. I hesitated to do that because the more I listened the more it confirmed my initial impressions stated in the review. I would not change my basic conclusions. I have very little to add. I would add this. Over time I felt I was missing musical information when I listened to the May. At times the May seemed to allow more space between instruments or musicians which at first I believed to be a good thing. I came to realize that this was because the May was omitting sound to get this effect. Much like an artist using charcoal shade to create a 3d effect. I decided to sell the May. Not because it is objectively inferior, but it does not satisfy my preference for realism which comes from concert going experience. Different strokes for different folks.
Your post is, as always, enlightening. As you write, it is a matter of perspective. I remember old posts on Audiogon suggesting that the Holo May R2R provides a middle-of-the-hall sound rather than the up-close sound of a SD chip. This is suggestive of a more blended sound and might seem at odds with any exaggerated sense of space and separation. I guess my point is that no one is evaluating a DAC in isolation. The DAC exists in an environment of the digital chain preceding it, and of the analog components following it. The other half of the environment is the musical genre. Change any of these and a DAC evaluation or comparison will change.
In any event I'm glad the thread you initiated is out front again. You have demonstrated what a review might be. This Instead of simply throwing out a few conclusory words.
@melm Thanks for the kind words. I agree with your comments on the effect of the entire chain. Still, in a nut shell, I would say the May tends to make a small ensemble sound big by adding seperation and a big ensemble lacking in detail. Again, my perspective is realism, not untethered pleasure. I do not mean to imply those who go for the euphoric sound are misguided. They just have different priorities, perspective and musical preferences.
After having owned this product a solid 3 weeks, I fail the see the hype. I see what it does to the audio and how it does clean it up a bit, but I don't see it leaps and bounds ahead of what other 1k$ priced dacs offer. In fact, ive had nothing but problems and misery since I've bought this dam thing. Glitches in audio, random disconnects, random desyncs and other problems that don't fix themselves until unplugging the usb. There are times when I watch a video, hit pause, and the audio buffer decides to keep playing on a loop non stop. Super annoying. I think there's something wrong with these Amanero drivers. I'm tempted to return this dam thing. For 3k$ it was supposed to make my life so much easier, but instead its been nothing but troublesome. Furthermore, the Amanero board does NOT remotely come close to removing all the noise from a PC. I still have some mild background static. Its better than my previous dacs, but its built in galvanic isolation is really mediocre at best. I was really expecting much better filtering out of it, but I guess theres no avoiding having to buy a 3rd party isolator. Oh well. So yeah, who else has usb driver problems with this thing?
3. I suspect you may have put the DVD sound HDMI cable into the I2s/HDMI input on the 005.
4. If you are feeding your DVD sound out into the 005 and then an amp/processor you need to exit the DVD using RCA/COAX Digital or Toslink into the 005 and then use the RCA or AES/EBU analogue outputs into your amp/processor.
I can only surmise on your situation, if you can give a more detailed explanation of your system that would help.
@turcoda
Sorry to hear about these difficulties. I have been using this device for over a year now with absolutely no problems. I use it primarily to play music but have used it with videos, both from DVDs and streams, though with my set-up sound for those those go in by spdif. This is the first I’ve heard about any extended difficulties either with the 005 or the earlier 004 which I had for 6 years, also with an Amenaro board. There was one problem reported here installing the Windows driver (fixed immediately) and some had questions about the DPLL settings.
The first thing to determine, I think, is whether your 005 is defective. It would be the first defective 005 or 004 I would have ever heard of, but it is possible. Second, you say that you have been playing it for 3 weeks. That might still not be a full break in but it certainly IS enough for you to know how it sounds. If this $3K DAC it doesn’t satisfy your needs far better than a $1K DAC and you have the opportunity to return it, then perhaps you should. After all, SQ is the bottom line. Same if it is defective.
You wrote earlier about your concern regarding galvanic isolation which has principally to do with the relationship between a USB input device (like a computer) and the USB receiving board, like the Amenaro. You sounded very much like you know exactly what you wanted. The Amenaro is one of the two promenent boards used in most of the best performing DACs. I would have supposed, based on what you wrote, that you would have investigated Amanero to see if it would meet your requirements.
At this time I use a SOtM device as a DLNA bridge betwen a small lap-top computer running JRiver and the DAC. However when my 004 was new, the computer was plugged directly into the DAC. There was absolutely no background static at all. There was no noise that I could hear at the time, though when I added the SOtM bridge it did sound quieter. The DAC’s behavior in that regard was exactly as it should have been IMO.
You should have no driver problem at all. But that’s a local issue between you and Windows, I assume.
There are plenty of folks here who would be happy to help, and I’m sure they’ll be chiming in. But as has already been suggested you need to describe your set-up in detail.
@turcodathe DAC is Amazing... Get your laptop squared away (preferably ditch your laptop entirely).
@lordmeltonis 100% right with his troubleshooting advice. Man knows his stuff.
Don't get discouraged the 005 is well worth the 3k price (double or triple IMO).
Quick hip shot from the Tambaqui vs 005 slow roll testing. Center image Tambaqui really shines. I'm literally pausing tracks, going back, and am just like "man I never heard the vocals so dead center before".
Really enjoying the Tambaqui, 3k vs 13k enjoying the Tambaqui... Well... Ugh... Probably not so far...
I've done a TON of headphone listening with both the 005 and Tambaqui and again, Tambaqui (with HPA4, and 005 for that matter) definitely ups my headphones to the clarity, channel separation and low frequency bass speed/control of the my reference Stellia's. literally my Z1R's sound 90% like my Stellia's in the domains of the high frequency and low frequency. Stellia's have unfortunately obnoxious separation now with the Tambaqui and somewhat fatiguing detail (but never had the Z1R's sound staging to begin with). So in my own personal case that's a potential $1,700 cost savings on cans. People will probably disagree, but just my hot take.
So Tambaqui has right out of the gates (in my opinion equivocated to $$$)
Roon Endpoint ($500)
Better Headphone listening ($1000) with the multiple amps (SPL, Benchmark, RME, Sony Tazy I've tried)
Excellent app ($250)
Size and aesthetic ($500)
So gateway Tambaqui price is now creeping ever so slightly down to maybe 9-11k mark, but still way up from the 3k 005.
I'll again keep dumping "as I go" impressions here, along with a big deep dive review of them both.
My current and most problematic issue is the intermittent audio micro stutters I keep hearing. Once they start, they don't stop until I do something to address that.
The 005 is currently plugged into a HEDT worth a bit more than the dac itself. No i do not use a laptop or a streaming device because I dumped all of my funds into this device. I use it for both work and gaming, and, as such, it does contain a fairly high end gpu that is usually the cause of such background noise. This desktop has had more than one high end motherboard and multitudes of other parts swapped out to determine the root cause of the noise, but there was no single one component to blame. It seems its just the way PCs and power supplies are built these days - which really terrible noise isolation... Also, I don't have a free hdmi port to spare, so I'm plugging this directly into the usb input of the dac, which is why i wanted one with an amanero board to begin with.
I am a software engineer and I've already flashed the device and tried the latest drivers to no avail. I do strongly believe its a software issue, as its quite intermittent and random. I think flashing the dac last week and changing some settings alleviated some problems, but some remain. I think im still in the return window, so if I fail to resolve it I'm just gonna pick up something else.
If you want to know the amp im feeing into, its the HSA1B, but for sure its not to blame here.
@turcodaOK firstly the problem needs to be isolated, so you need a different source, a laptop, to feed the 005 using the USB. If this is satisfactory then it's most likely an issue with your sound card.
Try and use either the RCA Digital or Toslink from your soundcard to the 005 and see if this works. If it doesn't it could be the DAC.
If it does your USB is receiving too much noise maybe you need a well shielded USB cable or a USB cable with the power line removed.
The 005 like most DACs will have the occasional buzzing sound for one or two seconds during the break in period but it seems your noise is much more than that.
You may also try a different DAC but I doubt the DAC is the problem, but it could be.
If you’re a software engineer you must know more about this stuff than I do.
But, the laptop I use is a small old ASUS running a Pentium and it works perfectly using JRiver. I have often thought that because it’s cheap and small (running storage much like a thumb drove) it may be quiet. Perhaps you can borrow a small laptop. Then at least you will see definitively where the problem is. Or perhaps buy one cheap second hand.
Alternatively, and very inexpensively, you can try a Raspberry Pi. If it works at all you can add an inexpensive "hat" for improved performance. That might keep you going for a while.
I guess the message is to get it away from your powerful computer if you can, and see if it was the culprit.
A smartphone with a USB adapter of some type is also an inexpensive alternative option for testing. This USB adapter can also come in handy in other scenarios as well.
You may also want to try BW02 or BW03 for PCM to see if that changes things. I generally use BW01 but when I was playing with different sources, I found BW02 and BW03 to be more robust for certain sources.
From the manual: Better sound can be reached if user set DPLL to a lower bandwidth, but this will reduce the signal receiving tolerance.
I use a Lumin U1 as source and a Singxer DDC to run I2S into the 005 and have zero DPLL problems, I can use almost any DPLL setting I want. A/B testing the USB/I2S inputs has me undecided about which I prefer, but I am leaning I2S. The 005 is a bit better than my Hermes DDC/Terminator II stack for most music I listen to, but with vocals it is a very close thing. Regardless the 005 is a fucking insane value, period. Just wish non Chinese manufacturers would produce this kind of quality product for less money than the Weiss, dCS and MSB folks apparently feel they can get away with charging.
@kairosmanI completely agree. The 005 has been incredibly impressive, and although the Tambaqui I'm enjoying a lot now, the cost vs diminishing return on this DAC is something most couldn't justify (I'm okay with it to a point).
I have to say though it's nice when you spend a good amount of money on a product and immediately you notice it has a distinct sound which you enjoy.
I've ran into DAC's where I listen and am like "do I even hear anything?", the 005 and Tambaqui are definitely not those kinda DAC's.
And I struggle to rank a Hifi product that I enjoyed as much right out of the box as the 005, but the Technics SU-G700 at $2,700 still has a place in my heart and head that the 005 still can't touch.
Hi, thank you for the help. Unfortunately I need a high end desktop for work, and having built this one myself, I can guarantee its got the best processor, gpu, and motherboard I can afford. Adding a usb card will just add to the total cost of this chain and won't likely fix this issue. I have plenty other DACs at my place, including the old one this unit replaced, the VMV D1se. The VMV DAC is all in all a mediocre dac in comparison, however, it has never once failed me in the many months I've owned it. The 005 DAC is a constant source of disappointment for me. Once again I recorded another video of it just pumping out high pitched ringing sound and barely any music. I sent the video the shenzenaudio to hear what they would say. Every few minutes/hour I have to unplug it to reset it. Super annoying. It begs the question why a 3k$ DAC requires constant reseting and a < 1k$ DAC does not. The sad part is I'm going to have to spend an arm and a leg shipping this back to china. Im trying so hard to fall in love with the 005, but I just can't.
I don’t see the point of a USB card. In effect the DAC is your USB card.
If you send it back to Shenzhen, tell them it’s defective with the video as proof. That should minimize your cost to return, perhaps to nothing. They might give you the option of a new one. Your call.
However, they might forward the video to the factory for comment. Actually you might do the same and short-circuit the communication. I suggest that you do. Send Jinbo the video. Jinbo is the engineer who designed the 005, and aims to please his customers. If anyone can advise you or can spot the defect, surely it is him. He will definitely answer within 24 hours, probably with a very brief, but to the point, response. He is: bleerock(at)126.com
@turcoda it seems your unit must be somewhat defective. When I got mine going first time with DSD the lock with the standard DPLL settings didn't work consistently, I tinkered and found settings that did work, and my unit improved in 24 hours to the point it became a non issue. Chances are good you can get Jinbo who has been responsive to me to respond if you email him and share this forum so he is incentivized to help you out.
You can ship the unit back to China by USPS. I sent my Gustard X26 Pro back to China for replacement, and it cost me $116. The 005 is a bi heavier so the cost will be more. Though this was all before the Russian invasion and transport costs were lower.
@turcoda @kairosman
I've had my 005 for a year now and have followed the very busy 004 forum on head-fi (4353 posts) for over 5 years before that. I've read about a lot of interaction with Jinbo and have had some myself. He is proud of his products and will want to help. IMO he doesn't need to be "incentivized" in the manner kairosman is suggesting. I have said earlier here, in response to another question, that he's not Paul McGowan. He will likely not advise, for example, on which cable or streamer to use. But when it comes to the operation of his products, there's no reason to be concerned. The time difference, though, may stretch out the communication.
@melmsorry I meant no disrespect towards Jinbo, I was just trying to say (and apparently badly) that a little extra incentive might help move things along, as mentioned all my dealings with him have been entirely satisfactory.
Adding a usb card will just add to the total cost of this chain and won’t likely fix this issue.
Ok so how is the USB being sent from your computer? Galvanic isolation starts at source not receiver. If the USB is being output from your mainboard then that’s a huge ball of noise.
You still haven’t said if you tried Spdif or Toslink connections or plugging another USB device into the 005. My thoughts are that the other DACs you have don’t have Amanero Boards and your Super Duper Computer is incompatible with Amanero and you know this but you still think it should work.
You still haven’t said if you tried Spdif or Toslink connections or plugging another USB device into the 005. My thoughts are that the other DACs you have don’t have Amanero Boards and your Super Duper Computer is incompatible with Amanero and you know this but you still think it should work.
Having been an owner of the lks 004 since 2018 and the owner of a Holo Spring kte3 dac also I’ve decided to get the 005. Mine is on order from Jason at midwestern audio and I will have it in about 3 weeks I hope. I traded in my holo for the 005. So that should tell you that I’m a bigger fan of the lks/musetec sound. I had the spring connected to an aurender x100 in my main system an the lks in my headphone rig. About 6 weeks ago I put the lks in my main rig and was immediately impressed with the improvement in overall sound quality. This peaked my interest in the musetec especially with all the positive feedback here and on head fi. So I jumped in. I know some of u guys are gonna go nuts when you read this but I’m having it sent to Amir at ASR for review. Let the bashing begin 😂. He was very much interested in this dac. Gonna keep my fingers crossed that it measures well which Im pretty confident it will. So keep your eyes open for his review.. looking forward to putting it in my system.
Just for the record, the bashing begins now. Amir does what he does very well. What he apparently cannot do is listen and evaluate on that basis. As for the 005, take out all of the SOTA capacitors for example and replace them with cheap ones that spec the same and the measurements will not change. But the sound will certainly change. Each one of those caps was listen-tested before being put in. Will it even make a difference whether or not the DAC is broken in? It certainly makes a difference to the sound. Then the DAC will be entered into Amir's SINAD graph where the Topping D90SE is rated superior to the Mola Mola Tambaqui. At least that's how some see it. Crazy! In any event I'm confident the 005 will measure well enough.
@melmNo problemo buddy, no one at ASR has enough pocket money to buy a 005.
My system has never sounded so good, have a Power House Zero 2 fuse in the power conditioner and four HIFI-Tuning fuses in the power amp and waiting for six Synergistic Purples for the rest.
I know u don’t get a lot of subjective opinion at ASR but there is a lot of good info to be had over there just like here. I like both places by the way. I bought the musetec cause I really like my lks and I was ready for an upgrade.
I know u don’t get a lot of subjective opinion at ASR but there is a lot of good info to be had over there just like here.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else. What is the "good information" that you feel is gained from ASR? This is a sincere inquiry.
Topping. Many I know bought those DACs based on those squeaky clean measurements from ASR tells me that it’s the worst purchase they have ever made in their audio journey.
Where’s the love for the Okto Dac8, which measures very well indeed, and costs a lot less?
I had asked this question earlier. And the Okto is made in EU. And it is not a one man show. It uses the same chip, I believe. Why the Musetec costs so much is beyond me. Internal pics looks almost like my Oppo player.
BTW, the Okto is so hot that you cannot find one easily. I am in no rush. So hoping to find one in the next few months.
@milpai one look at the internals of each DAC should give you somewhere to start answering your question why the Musetec is comparatively expensive. Parts, topology and build quality are on another level entirely.
RE: Amir and the ASR cult - it's so ironic that they "believe" current measurements tech and methodologies capture all relevant audible parameters despite the fact it is common knowledge that scientific method ensures new tech and methodologies that will reveal heretofore unrealized parameters.
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