I've hesitated in replying again for a number of reasons.
* We all have somewhat different hearing acuity.
* We have different tastes in music and presentation, along with different experiences with live music and individual systems.
* We have different rooms and associated acoustics and a wide variety of different components in our systems.
Still, I was surprised to see roxy54's revised listening impressions with the 888s. Not that I doubt his impressions, but my own have been very different. Such differences in perspective can be a big advantage in personal reports compared with "professional" reviews, so I'll expand a bit on my own..
From their initial installation I was pleased by the sonics of the MoFis, and that only increased as I put more time on them. However my current situation is a combination of good news/bad. On the good side I've been an audio hobbyist for decades and have the experience of owning countless systems as well as hearing many others owned by friends. Plus I've continued attending a variety of live concerts my whole adult life. The bad is age-related hearing loss so I admit to missing upper frequency information.
After several months of listening to the MoFi SourcePoint 888s I can summarize my experience in non-audio speak. I become immersed in the music. I don't need to evaluate my listening experience in technicalities. The experience brings me into the performance with great tonal realism with a variety of instruments and voices. Musical essence is experienced. I'm happy to keep mine.
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Hi @ozzy62
No, I haven't heard of him, but I'll look him up. Thanks!
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I should have read your post more carefully before I replied. I see you already have upgraded xovers as well as some other upgrades. I’m sure those things made a nice improvement. The cornscala is a design with lots of promise. I’m sure you’ve seen some of Justin Webers take on these. The sky is the limit.
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Thanks @ozzy62 . I know there will be upgrades ahead. I already damped the horns.
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I had Crites Cornscalas for a little while. They were good, just not great. One shortcoming I found was a cabinet resonance in the midbass that once I heard it, it couldn’t be unheard. I attribute that to the removable rear wall that flexes with deep bass passages.
Some things I did to improve them was to wrap the midrange horn with dynamat. I also lined the rear cabinet wall with dynamat. But the biggest improvement was a set of ALK crossovers. The Crites xovers are a real weak point in my opinion.
Good luck with the speakers.
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@trecool99
That's a good question...
After I sold the 888's, I decided to put my Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference floorstanders up for sale. I thought that they were very fine speakers in almost every way, except that the midbass was a little week, taking some of the power that is in that range away, and it bothered me over a period of 2 years. Even at that, they made the Sourcepoints seem lacking (to my ears) in most other areas.
in the interim, I started using a mint set of old Celestion sl6si's that I had, and I realized that I really enjoyed the presentation in my room, even though they had obvious low frequency and dynamic limitations. So, I began a search for good, dynamic small monitors and decided to try to get a set of Triangle Magellan Duettos if possible. I located a dealer with a demo pair, but his price was too high for my budget, and I decided against them.
That same night, I happened to see on USAM a set of Crites Cornscalas that were being sold for a very reasonable price by a well-off gentleman who owns a number of pairs of very good speakers and was just making room for new Sashas. He had bought these new from Crites and had them veneered in Teak professionally as well as upgrading the mid horn driver and the crossover and rewiring them with Audio Note cable and Audio Note binding posts.
I am a long time fan of Klipsch having owned Khorns and Epic CF4's for many years, so I found it irresistible, and I bought them. At this time, I am having custom stands built for them to raise the horn to the correct level. I am enjoying them very much, but as with any speaker, they aren't perfect, and I don't expect perfection.
The mid bass that I was missing is back.
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@roxy54 What did you end up with? Sorry if I missed it from previous post.
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@onhwy61
It was a bit hard and humbling to write the update because it showed that my first impressions were very premature. I should know by now that , for myself at least, it actually takes months to get the measure of a speakers. My update may seem harsh, but for whatever it's worth, I wanted to let everyone know that I no longer own them and why I don't.
I really have no interest in bashing them or the brand, and I certainly believe that they are working well for others. That said, they didn't work well for me in my room where a number of other speakers, large and small have performed well.
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@roxy54, please explain how you reconcile your current opinion of the 888s with you earlier statements in the thread.
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@roxy54
Indeed. It's about what you'd expect from the amp = amp crowd.
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@roxy54 lol what?
I have the 888 and it doesn’t sound dull at all and the imaging is incredibly consistent. I am sure you didn’t even do a simple RTA but yeah Danny said the crossover is cheese so must be true.
Bass is more your room than the speaker. Bass waves are too long so rooms impact bass frequencies the most
Basically 20Hz to 300Hz ish is at the mercy of the room dimensions and your listening distance. IF you place the speakers to sit in a null, don’t go blaming the speakers.
This obsession with crossover material because of Danny is frankly disheartening but I guess you gotta blame something instead of doing due diligence investigations of how the speaker is coupling with your room
You can have the most exotic crossover parts that are more bling than cheese according to Danny's scale and if it isn't implemented well, the speaker will still sound ass
This is my speaker RTA in my space with subs integrated
They sound incredible. Like end of the line incredible and I have no plans on buying a different speaker set . Link to RTA taken in DIRAC (https://imgur.com/a/23SEM3p)
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I wanted to give an update since I was the OP, for what it might be worth, and because I was watching a Danny Ritchie YouTube video about the Sourcepoint 10’s
today, and it confirmed what I had heard. I had only owned the 888’s for a couple of weeks when I realized not only that they weren’t the right speakers for me, but that I didn’t think that they were very good speakers period.
Having come from a speaker that has a scanspeak beryllium tweeter, the first thing I noticed was a very dull, rolled off treble region. Next I realized that, surprisingly for a dual concentric, the imaging wasn’t very good. Finally, the scale of voices and images in the midrange was too small for a large speaker, seemingly out of proportion to the bass. Speaking of the bass, considering the number of drivers, it wasn’t really that impressive.
What Danny showed was how cheap the crossovers were...iron core inductors and cheap capacitors. All in all, he said it was a good design let down by a cheap crossover. It answered some questions for me, and pretty as they were, I have to t missed them a bit.
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Correction, that should be spatiality, but most likely knew that. ;^)
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@pryso thanks for the update, very interesting, I'm glad to hear the speakers are working out for you.
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More than a couple of weeks, but here is an update.
After initial set up I was positively impressed with the 888s. So I wasn't overly concerned with "break in" but I played them several hours a day as background with FM when I wasn't active listening. I didn't estimate the hours or note a specific point when sonics improved but suddenly I realized everything simply sounded more alive.
In particular, recordings by Lightin' Hopkins and Johnny Cash (Cash) sounded like they were in my room performing. More complex music, whether jazz, classical, or classic rock, also offered wonderful depth and speciality. Overall, the components simply disappear and I luxuriate in the music.
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Happy to see people join the Sourcepoint Train. It's cozy and enjoyable here
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Thank you for your post , as the 888’s have caught my interest. I just received a pair of Rogue M-180’s from the manufacturer with the DARK upgrades. I have them paired with the Hera pre. I’m currently breaking them in with JBL 4312A’s. However I’m looking for speakers at this price point and they definitely look interesting. My room is 17’ wide and 29’ deep with the listening area 17’ X 20’ and the ceiling at 16’. I’m guessing about 4500 cubic feet. I have plenty of freedom for placement and wish to avoid subs. I’m into Classic Rock mainly and a variety of other music. Zero Rap and not into Classical. So any input based on your experience and my equipment would be greatly appreciated. Regards , Mike B.
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Initial set up very positive.
My sister stopped by so I played one of her favorite Tom Petty albums (not my usual choice). She said, "It's so clear, I hear all the details. It sounds like they are right here in the room."
Now I'm breaking in with FM.
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@pryso
Congratulations on your new speakers. I hope that they work well for you. I think that they will be a good fit in your large room. Thanks for the kind words.
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@roxy54, I may owe you a vote of thanks. I just placed an order for a pair of Source Point 888s.
Because of my age I wanted to simplify and downsize my system. I've not heard the MF Source Point models but have heard previous Andrew Jones' designs. And I've listened to a few Tannoy concentric designs. So viewing a couple of his interviews, plus comments on your post, convinced me to order without hearing the 888s.
My room is larger than yours at 28 x 19 x 10, with a couple of side additions. So hope that suits them.
Trusting this was a good decision I'll report back in a couple of weeks after they arrive, go through placement experiments, and break in.
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Great post, I am always delighted to read about a positive speaker upgrade. I have met Andrew Jones at a few audio show and he is very affable and happy to visit. His induction into TAS or Stereophile Hall of Fame, I forget which one, was well deserved. He has made music lovers happy with a range of speakers at all price points.
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@roxy54 --
Interesting speakers, the MoFi’s, though I’ve yet to audition any of their models. A local dealer recently became a distributor of the brand, so I’ll go have a listen to them within shortly to get a bearing on their sound - just out of curiosity. In light of the general price range among hifi/high-end speakers I actually expected the model 888 to be more expensive given its size, appearance and rumored SQ, so was pleasantly surprised to find out they retail for $5k/pair.
What’s interesting about the MoFi’s to me, apart from what I can assess from reviews/feedback on their sonic imprinting in select areas, is that they’re point sources from ~150Hz on up and that Andrew Jones is the mastermind behind the particular design choices made here (I still find the TAD CR1’s to be among, if not the best of the more compact, low efficiency speaker designs out there I’ve heard, but they are very expensive). A point source speaker has a lot going for it, though as always it’s about weighing compromises and whether what can be extracted from them appeals to you.
I’m happy to say that they are fine in my 13 x 11 x 9 room. Occasionally a note may hit the room’s resonant frequency and you’ll hear it, but it’s infrequent and doesn’t bother me. I’d also mention that my room is untreated.
Being point source speakers certainly makes integrating them within shorter listening distances easier.
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@roxy54
Yeah that Scanspeak tweeter in the Kismets is widely regarded as one of the best available at any price.
Andrew Jones designs some nice speakers for sure.
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My thoughts are the op displays quite a bit of wisdom and discernment about relative merits. Sure Andrew is fantastic but there is no monopoly of engineering talent w ears. i agree 6 months is a good milestone to understand the inchstone nuances of a speaker / room combination… so glad you are enjoying the 888.
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@helomech and @deep_333
I want to be clear in my feelings about the Kismet Reference. I believe that Klaus, and whomever else was responsible for the design, have squeezed every bit of performance from these two fine drivers, and in some ways it is better than any other speakers I have owned.
For instance, I can say at this point that even though the tweeter on the 888 is very well integrated into the voicing of the speaker, it is not the equal of the beryllium Scanspeak in the Kismet. That tweeter is so pure and smooth and had very wide dispersion. I know from experience that some speakers with beryllium tweeters are too bright, so I have to think the design of the crossover has something to do with it too.
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Try and find this much engineering effort sunk into a 5k floorstander by a guy elsewhere...
Andrew Jones discussion - Mofi 888
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9nV7J0MTFk
Andrew Jones discussion - Elac Adante (scroll over to 8:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ika420Ezb30
Last i heard, Daryl Willie will just buy a focal driver and drop it in his 80k ghastly looking box (easy peasy incoherency).
This is honestly surprising given the quality of drivers in your Kismet Reference speakers, lack of midbass punch withstanding.
At least when it comes to cabinet build, the MoFis look professionally done unlike (cough) some other brands.
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Now you have 2 great speakers. I heard the Sourcepoint briefly and they sounded very good. I have sat through several of Klauses system demos and am always impressed.
Enjoy
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This is honestly surprising given the quality of drivers in your Kismet Reference speakers, lack of midbass punch withstanding.
At least when it comes to cabinet build, the MoFis look professionally done unlike (cough) some other brands.
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I did want to add one important finding, even at this early stage for the benefit of anyone who might be considering these speakers. I read once and saw on youtube another time that these speakers are only for medium to large rooms but based on my past experience with another large speaker and m desire for full range output, I took the chance and bought them anyway.
I'm happy to say that they are fine in my 13 x 11 x 9 room. Occasionally a note may hit the room's resonant frequency and you'll hear it, but it's infrequent and doesn't bother me. I'd also mention that my room is untreated.
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@curiousjim
That's true. I also put more weight on user reviews, as long as I've seen a good number of them.
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@roxy54
Congrats on the new speakers! Even though the reviews were all positive, it’s always better to have a review from someone has nothing to gain* from posting their thoughts and opinions.
* Nothing to gain but listening pleasure.
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@kennyc
Thanks. I think he’s a pretty brilliant guy. I was really interested in the sourcepoint 8 and 10 when they came out because I understood the advantages of concentric drivers having a little second hand experience with Tannoy speakers. The first time I saw pictures and a description of the 888’s though I was really excited, because I knew from past experience that the concentric driver would perform at a higher level if it didn’t have to reproduce those low bass notes.
Besides that, I’ve never been a subwoofer guy. I prefer an all in one tower, and these leave everything I’ve owned in the past in the dust. The solidity and clarity as well as tunefulness of the bass performance is really something special.
I’m still learning about them every day, and as is usually for me, getting the full measure and understanding of them will probably take at least 6 months.
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@roxy54
Congratulations! I’m also a fan of Andrew Jones including his MoFi Sourcepoints.
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Congrats @roxy54 the triple 8s are an exceptional value to my ears. Exceptionally strong bass (spectacular really), midrange very good and dynamics are also very good.
I liked what I heard but with the Class D amp they sounded brash and slightly unrefined. I bet your Mac has the perfect synergy with them. Let them burn and and enjoy!
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Anyway, @roxy54 , congratulations on the new speakers!
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Impedance and phase angle.
**Interpretation of Phase Angle**
- **In-Phase**: A phase angle of ( 0^circ ) (or ( 0 ) radians) means the voltage and current are in phase, resulting in maximum power transfer.
- **Out-of-Phase**: As the phase angle increases or decreases away from ( 0^circ ), it indicates that the current and voltage are out of phase, which can lead to reduced power transfer.
**Power Factor**
- The power factor (PF) is related to the phase angle:
[
ext{Power Factor} = cos(phi)
]
- A power factor close to 1 indicates that most of the power is being effectively used, while a power factor closer to 0 signifies greater reactive power and inefficiencies.
### Summary
The phase angle is directly related to the impedance of a circuit. It provides insight into how voltage and current interact within the circuit, influencing power factor and efficiency. Understanding this relationship is key for designing and analyzing AC circuits effectively.
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The importance of impedance, personal experience.
Years ago I owned Duntech Princess speakers which I loved. They were rated at 90 dB efficiency but required more power than expected by that. I believe it was due to the response curve dipping just below 3 ohms in the bass.
The two best amp matches I found were first the VTL 300 monos with KT-90 outputs, then the Parasound Halo JC-1 monos. The latter were rated at 400 w @ 8 ohms and 800 @ 4 ohms. The Princesses really came alive with those.
Otherwise that might seem excessive for 90 dB, so look at the entire response curve.
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Nice! Great surprise. Enjoy!
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I was surprised to find the latest Stereophile in my mailbox today with a review of the 888’s. John Atkinson loved them.
@immatthewj
I think that's what I've usually understood; that is that minimum impedance is more important than efficiency regarding amplifier compatibility and ease of drive.
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Reading the specs on those is what made me curious, @roxy54 ; however, although I thought I remembered that the nominal impedance is 6 ohms, as you just typed, I also saw that minimum impedance doesn't seem to drop real low, and I am starting to get the impression from all that I read on this site that maybe minimum impedance is more critical than sensitivity. At least when it comes to how hard a load a speaker presents to an amp. However, I may be mistaken in my interpretation of what I have read.
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I’m using an old, much modified Mac, but despite being somewhat inefficient, they don’t drop below 4.6 ohms I think, so they’re not very hard to drive. I’m getting plenty of oomph.
Today I got my chest pushed in a bit by Peter Gabriel’s "This is the Picture".
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@roxy54 , do they take a good bit of oomph to drive?
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Thanks @ozzy62 . It feels even better when you realize that it's an improvement, not just a different flavor.
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Congrats on the purchase. New speaker time is an exciting time…
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@roxy54
Agree on the CF-4 vs K'Horns. The CF-4s were a "big boy" D'Oppolito design that presented a very coherent point source when set up properly.
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