MM, MC, or MI cartridge

I don't think this piont has been made yet but there's also the consideration the stylus cannot be replaced on a MC cartridge.  Damage the stylus and you're buying a whole new cartridge.  I know it's only money..................🤣

OP asked about “sonics”.

@rvpiano

So many opinions, aren’t you glad to have equally good and sometimes better digital system to fall back on while you contemplate where to spend your $$ either re-tipping the damaged cart or go for Hana ML 😊

BTW, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep an extra cart as a backup!

@zazouswing  : In the other side why if the high compliance MM cartridges can pick up more grooves information can't even the LOMC princple? easy different cartridge motors.

 

Some one named the Technics EPC 100C MK4 that I owned in its stand alone version and is a superb example of one of the best MM has for offer as could be the AKG P100LE on the MI side. 

But I'm talking here of vintage cartridges that if were under today production with today parts used for the top LOMC cartridges will be a true challenge to them.

I know that my next comments are not what the OP ask for but MM always was and is in clear disadvantage vs LOMC cartridges due that for around the last 40 years the audio phono stage electronics industry was in precise focus to gives the best designs for LOMC cartridges not for MM ones, so the MM PS were " living " in the mediocrity and for the big mass audiophiles. That's why my friend and I builded a first rate phonolinepreamp with a top MC design and a top separate MM design, but this is not the industry rule today.

 

Anyway, many subjects around that I think all of them were discussed in the big MM thread.

 

R.

@rvpiano The Virtuoso is a very good cartridge and worth repairing. Send it to Andy Kim. He does great work and turns Tibbs around quickly. http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/

lalitk,

You’re right, I am happy to fall back on my digital system. 
In some ways, I’m hoping that the new Hana ML cartridge will have some (but not all) the characteristics of digital. Will have to wait about a week for the new cart to find out.

@jasonbourne52 

 

@wolfie62 : a mono pole magnet does not exist! If you could invent one you could qualify for the Nobel Prize for Physics!

LOL!!!

Really? You are EXACTLY the type of person I was referring to! You don’t comprehend how MC/MI/MM cartridges work!

When you induce magnetic flux into a non-magnetic soft iron (Mumetal or other brands), you induce from only 1 permanent magnet pole. The entire armature takes on that one pole’s N or S polarity. It would be physically impossible to have both poles of magnetic flux. The armature is then an *extension* of the one magnetic pole. The armature in the coil pole gap has only 1 pole’s magnetic flux. A true MONOPOLE of magnetic flux! 
 

And BTW, a small, powerful rare earth magnet on a cantilever also has 2 magnetic poles in very close proximity to each other, and to the coil poles. Doesn’t happen in an MI armature!

Dear @rvpiano  : "  I’m hoping that the new Hana ML cartridge will have some (but not all) the characteristics of digital. "

Digital and analog medium are two way different  media. Both with its own characteristics.

That we can like some analog characteristics the hope that digital even those characteristics is out of question and there is no reasons to wait for.

An apple always will tastes as an apple and a banana as a banana.

Both proccess, recording/playback, in both alternatives are totally/absolutely different.

 

Our preferences is other different issue that has nothing to do with those alternatives and it's way complex/complicated.

 

Try to enjoy the more you can MUSIC you are listening, that's all about. Which media: I don't care but as you several gentlemans cares about.

 

R.

 

 

Someone said D word ? Oh no. 

rvpiano, you probably mean that you want analogue to be very quiet. That's a lot of effort, beginning with finding the best pressings.

 

What about moving iron cartridges??

I have always been interested in the legendary London Decca Reference cart.

I currently use a Lyra Atlas SL. Hard to imagine a $5250 London beats the $13K Lyra.

But the. London reviews all say it produces “scary real”.

Anyone have experience with one?

Dear rauliruegas,

I understand your point. Analog is analog, and digital is digital and never the twain shall meet. Each has its own unique character.
However, I believe there are SOME  traits that can be validly compared to each other.  
I totally agree that music is the essential thing, and I have written extensively about that.  
But, this is still a hobby that we  can have some fun with if we don’t get too carried away (which is easy to do.)

 

Inna,

Actually I was not referring to the quietness of digital.  On my set the digital format has a certain clarity that the analog does not.  Maybe rauliruegas is right and that type of clarity  is uniquely a digital trait, but I’m hoping to get it with the new cartridge.

@rauliruegas

 

You bring up an interesting point. Does analog and digital sound actually have a different sound? A decade ago, I would have said yes. Today I have to say no… or it is a philosophical question. My analog and digital sound the same. When digital sounded bad, it was the immaturity of the rendering electronics. 

 

My Analog end and digital end sound the same because I have selected equipment that renders them the same. I have all Audio Research equipment, in particular the Phono Stage and DAC… I chose a cartridge that was natural and musical (Koetsu Rosewood Signature) and a streamer that was outstanding and natural (Aurender W20SE).

So they sound the same. You cannot separate the rendering mechanism from the source. So, while you can easily say vinyl trumps MP3… because of the huge imbalance in innate resolution. If you consider digital and analog in say the less than $500,000 system you can have them the same. In the $500K system you are likely to have to spend more on digital… but only maybe 20% to equal. But I am not trying to get into details. The issue is that the sound is almost all about rendering, not about the source.

Your potential choice is a great choice

the Sutherland 20/20 is dead silent which

is important

Been playing a Lyra Delos through it for 2 years

 

with great success

Good luck Willy-T

One of my life long goals was to try to emulate my live musical experience with my experience at home The MI carts from SS provide this.

@rvpiano , 

I've been following your many posts. 

It you're looking for a natural presentation, go SoundSmith 

MC are fun but not a natural/live presentation of the live performance.

Too late.
I’ve already ordered the Hana ML.

Hopefully, it will fill the bill for me.

I’ll try to stop posting so much. LOL

 

One factor often cited for MC pickups is wider band width due to low inductance. But this is due to fewer coil turns which gives low inductance AND low output. MMs almost always have many more coil turns AND higher output. But there have been MMs with fewer turns AND lower output. The Technics EPC 100 MK4 is an example with FLAT response to at least 80kHz if i Recall correctly(meaning the high end resonance is even higher) and yet it still has 1 mv output which means you can use a good MM phono stage; you don't need a high gain MC type phono stage.

rvpiano, that's good. Now ask us about upgrading your table and arm and phono stage. You will get recommendations of almost all available brands, guaranteed. 

@mglik 

What about moving iron cartridges??

I have always been interested in the legendary London Decca Reference cart.

I currently use a Lyra Atlas SL. Hard to imagine a $5250 London beats the $13K Lyra.

But the. London reviews all say it produces “scary real”.

Anyone have experience with one?

The only real attraction to the Decca cart is that it is a “tip sensing” cart. Not much to do with it being an MI cart. I wrote about MI carts earlier in this thread^^^^^^.
 

The Decca cart reads the stylus movement from close to the stylus. It has a short vertical cantilever tied with a string; the string is the damper to kill resonance in the short vertical cantilever. Not a user-replaceable stylus. 
 

The 1960 GE VR1000 is another phenomenal MI cartridge that is also tip-sensing. Fact is, it’s the only tip-sensing stereo cartridge with a user-replaceable stylus. It reads the stylus movement at the actual stylus, more than the Decca does. Tip-sensing cartridges have a very unique sound! Not bright, but very dynamic and emphatic. Because it doesn’t read from the opposite end of the cantilever, it loses no energy to the long cantilever or into the suspension; all other cartridges do. Until you hear a true tip-sensing stylus you’ll never hear how much energy, dynamics, and FR energy is lost to the cantilever! It’s amazing to hear the stylus in the groove, AT THE GROOVE, and how much more information there is in the grooves. It’s like having a “dynamics amplifier” in your system. Once you hear a record “from the stylus”, NOT from the other end of a long cantilever (MC, MM, MI all have this problem!) you’ll never want to go back to them.

rvpiano

My personal preference is MI - I have had various MC cartridges with good phono stages and have struggled to get the rich tonality and PRAT that I prefer. The most recent MC cartridge was a Kiseki Purple Heart which everyone said was a  great cartridge with rich tonality - I found it shrill in the high frequencies - an aspect I have found with other MC cartridges and has been commented on in hifi press. Currently have a Grado MI cartridge and am delighted to have found the sound I like with great silent tracking - for me MI is a hybrid between the richness of MM and the detail of MC.

+1 rauliruegas

...on the same wavelength as you...

@rvpiano 

I have the Hana ML & it really came to life (exploded) after 200 hrs. Your going to love it! Just be patient. I also have the Credenza Black, but prefer the Hana in my system.

I also have the Hana ML. Wonderful sounding cartridge.

Dear @slaw ​@rvpiano  : "" One of my life long goals was to try to emulate my live musical experience with my experience at home The MI carts from SS provide this. ""

 

It does not matters thwe media ( analog(digital ) no one including you can achieve that statement target, no one.

The best room/system target we can have is to stay nearer to the recording, nothing through any room/system can emulates the dynamics and its power clarity and transparency including the critical MUSIC transients if for no other " thing " ( there are many other reasons. ) because in a live performance " there is nothing but air between you and the MUSIC source ".

 

Now the nearest to the recording we can achieve/be it through digital alternative not analog one, everything the same.

A main reason for that are the recording/playback whole tortuose/nigth mare analog proccess against the digital " direct " proccess. No matters what. I'm not talking of preferences, just common sense.

 

R.

Dear @wolfie62  : I owned at least two LOMC  Ikeda cantilever-less designs and cartridges as the L-1000 by JVC/Victor and Dyna 13D that are designs with almost no cantilever as is the today LOMC AT 1000.

Very good experiences and not exactly the same kind of performance than the Decca non MC designs.

I think that on cartridges there is nothing really new but refinements on each design cartridge principles and designs as Lyra Etna SL makes that the MUSIC experiences in our system be a superior one to all those non-cantilever designs.

Cold be interesting to ask designers of the level of Lyra Mr. Carr what he think about on quality level performance.

Common sense tells that cantilever-less have and must be a huge improvement when a source of added distortions gone but a stand alone ( Ikeda ) stylus tip obviously has its own and different added distortions to what comes in the LP grooves due  that the stylus tip was holded in some way in the " cartridge suspension " and after that comes the cartridge motor design.

Unfortunatelly in audio always exist trade-offs and our room/system will be as better as we choosed those trade-offs in each link of the room/system chain.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@lewm

Your opinion concerning MC/MM/MI sound differences is exactly what I said in my original post. I guess we're caught in a glitch in the Matrix. As Mick Jagger once sang, "Gimme shelter!"  In any event, I think I found a happy best-of-both-worlds compromise with my new Hana ML.

@rauliruegas , 

The keyword is "try". 

@rauliruegas 

But I'm talking here of vintage cartridges that if were under today production with today parts used for the top LOMC cartridges will be a true challenge to them.

So far, I’ve not had any MC cartridges beat the ADC 10E MKIV with the boron cantilever and nude MR tip. Extremely short/light cantilever and nude Micro Ridge stylus. Superb tracking at 0.75 grams, extremely low moving mass, the best imaging and detail I’ve yet heard. Tip life @0.75 grams is better than 800 hours.

Dear @wolfie62  : Now I own that ADC in stock condition. I posted a thread of the ADC 26/27 original status where I made tests comparisons against top today LOMC cartridges and overall in my room/system me and the owners of the today LOMC cartridges been in agreement that that Pritchard design is just superb and could outperform any other cartridge.

 

I know that you prefer the 10E MKIV and is ok. I have the 26 with 3-4  replacement stylus and now that you brougth here ADC name I will send to an update with boron cantilever and maybe Shibata stylus shape or VDH and yes with the length cantilever of same dimension than the original aluminum one.

R.

@wolfie62  : Btw, who was the 10E rettiper?

 

Thank's in advance,

 

R.

Dear @slaw  : " The keyword is "try". "

 

I can see that thaT NO-SENSE still makes sense to you.

Please think a little:

makes sense to you to scale to the sharp end the Everest in a cycle?,. Because is " almost " the same: both a " crazy impossibilities." 

 

Maybe you can " try ".

 

R.

@rauliruegas , 

 I'll keep on chuggin'!

Greetings 

To be fair to my ears I will eventually finish refurbishing my Heybrook TT2 turntable with a Sumiko Premiere MMT  tonearm. I’ll install a Grado XTZ MI Cartridge on it.

 I haven’t listened  to a MI/MM cartridge in my system in over 35+ years. I have only used MC cartridges. I’m looking forward to listening to the Grado cartridge. If I enjoy the Grado cartridge I’ll look at updating to a more current MI/MM cartridge.

My previous response was based on how cartridges sounded to me 35 years ago.

Joe Nies

Dear @wolfie62  : Now I own that ADC in stock condition. I posted a thread of the ADC 26/27 original status where I made tests comparisons against top today LOMC cartridges and overall in my room/system me and the owners of the today LOMC cartridges been in agreement that that Pritchard design is just superb and could outperform any other cartridge.

 

I know that you prefer the 10E MKIV and is ok. I have the 26 with 3-4  replacement stylus and now that you brougth here ADC name I will send to an update with boron cantilever and maybe Shibata stylus shape or VDH and yes with the length cantilever of same dimension than the original aluminum one.

@rauliruegas 

 

Unfortunately for you, the ADC 25/26/27 carts are no match for the 10E MKIV. The 10E-4 came out after those carts, and just before the XLM. The 10E-4 was a test bed to prove Pritchard’s latest development in coil design and coil poles design. The improvement was used in ALL subsequent designs from the XLM to the Astrion. Your ADC 26 and 27 lacks this key technology. I used the 10E-4 with NOS R-26 and R-25(1) styli. It’s the very best of the very best ADC made! I still have 3 NOS of each styli. The styli for the 25/26/27/10E-4 are identical except the original R-15E was a bonded elliptical, not nude. 
 

But you will never achieve the level of performance with the 25/26/27 cart bodies as the 10E-4, regardless of using a retipped stylus. They all lack the fine level of control of the 10E-4. And the XLM to the Astrion lacks the sound of the 10E-4. So your getting a retip won’t raise the performance to the level of the 10E-4. 
 

I did the retip myself. I bought the boron rod and diamond on-line. I have a fine metallurgical microscope and alignment reticles on one of my eyepieces. But from here on, I’ll use Joseph Long. It was an exercise in patience. I used a worn R-15E stylus and cut the aluminum canti where it enters the armature. Then secured the boron rod inside the aluminum sheath. 

Dear @kinross  : " Just to add the J. Grado, who developed and patented the first MC cartridges, .."

I think that you have a misunderstood about because your statement is wrong due that was not Gado who patented the MC principle but no other than Ortofon and they stated this fact in his site information.

 

Grado company born in 1953 and Ortofon patented the MC cartridge principle in 1950. Later on 19158 Grado started his patent for MC that was approved in 1960-61:

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2591996A/en

 

R.

OP,

After reading a review of the Hana ML… sounds like a great cartridge. Congratulations, I look forward to hearing about what you think of it.

rvpiano, I'm aware you listen to lots of classical music.  Do you spend much time listening to other types?

I ask because of the experience of a friend who had quite a refined musical ear.  He could not find just one cartridge that suited all the various classical and jazz recordings he regularly listened to.  I do remember he preferred a Grado for vocals, both jazz and opera.  Then he had a different favorite for symphonic and big band and a third for chamber music and small group jazz.  I don't remember which those were but it was nearly 20 years ago so probably doesn't matter now.

Depending on your arm and table (you didn't identify those) there are a few ways to do this.  If you have an interchangeable headshell that may be the simplest and least expensive.  Adding at least one additional tonearm would reduce changing headshells, particularly if you were satisfied with two cartridges.  Also is the choice to add a second table/arm, but that is not practical for many people.

BTW, I assume it was the cantilever you bent, not the stylus.  They don't bend, they break. ;^)

 

 

Yup, two arms and two cartridges, one or two tables. That's the way for many. More than two is a little extravagant but why not ?

I personally don't need it but I don't listen to large scale music. Good for me or I would have to completely overhaul my entire system. Only couple of cables would remain where they are now. I don't chase extreme resolution and transparency either or I would want $10k MC and $20k phono stage, not to mention the rest of the chain.

pryso,

Thanks for asking.
Yes, I listen to mostly classical (about 90-95%) but I do listen to jazz, pop and some other styles. I had Grado cartridges for many years until I switched to the Clearaudio Virtuoso, which I like a lot. Contrary to your view, I’ve never felt the need to switch cartridges. My system really sounds fine in all styles with one cartridge. I’ve never felt the need to switch.
As far as turntable, I started out very modestly with the Rega RP3, but I have almost completely revamped and upgraded it with new parts and two power supplies. I also have a steady as a rock very heavy specially designed turntable platform on a slab floor which holds the turntable with no vibration.

On EBay, there is a GE VR 1000 for about $700. It is interesting since there are several stylus about $30. I am not a fan of setting up a cartridge. And I can’t imagine a 1000 will stand up to my Lyra Atlas SL. Love my Lyra.

Is it worth an experiment?

ghdprentice,

I’m just hoping the Hana will suit me at least as well as the Clearaudio did.

 

@rvpiano The Clearaudio cartridge you had is very good.  I have a Hana SL and like the sound better than the Clearaudio.  I've spent time listening to the ML on a friend's system and liked it even more than the SL.  I wouldn't say that you'll notice a dramatic difference, but you should notice more refinement and a very neutral presentation from the ML.  Please let us know how you like it once you get it.

Will certainly do.

If long term cost is an issue at all, van den Hul styli (medium output MC Cartridges) are shaped different and last considerably longer than others AND are replaceable. They also sound great. My last stylus lasted 2500-3000 hours and sounded the same until it totally disintegrated. 

I have mine (MC One Special) paired with a Sutherland Insight LPS on a Rega P8 and it is a great combination. 

@mglik 

On EBay, there is a GE VR 1000 for about $700. It is interesting since there are several stylus about $30. I am not a fan of setting up a cartridge. And I can’t imagine a 1000 will stand up to my Lyra Atlas SL. Love my Lyra.

Is it worth an experiment?

Yeah, the $30 stylus…..

 

I learned to rebuild the stylus.I don’t use the iron cantilever. With my stylus, the VR1000 is a totally different cartridge. “Flux Mirror” of my own design. Very light and short cantilever. Still an MI cartridge though.

@sokogear 

 

I had a van Den Hull cartridge for nearly 20 years… over 2,000 hours and was still going strong when I traded it in with the TT. Great investment.

The stylus of any MC cartridge is replaceable, by a skilled professional. I just had it done by Expert Stylus for my Koetsu Urushi.  What others refer to as regards the differences in repair-ability of MM vs MC is that for MM cartridges, you can buy a completely new stylus assembly, including cantilever and magnet.  Then the owner can replace the unit on his own for no added cost.  I am sure everyone knows this, so what is unique about vdH MC cartridges when it comes to stylus replacement?

 

Wolfie, Are you a professional re-tipper?

Hey @lewm - van den Hul cartridges use a unique designed.shaped stylus, and of course like all MC carts, they need to be professionally serviced, unlike the pop on MM type stylus combo pieces.

The way VDH styli fit in the record's groove (as per VDH's web site) gives them their long life as I mentioned and @ghdprentice experienced. I don't see why anyone who uses a turntable a lot would buy anything else if they are considering a MC cartridge, unless cost is not a major concern. I know some like to use multiple carts, arms, etc. I mainly am interested in the music and not swapping gear out very often. I prefer to spend $$ on records and have about equal invested in hardware vs. software.