I owned a Colibri and liked it, but I like other of my cartridges better. Since vdH make a myriad of versions of each of their major lines, it’s quite possible I’d love some other vdH, maybe even a different version of Colibri, better. But I don’t generally choose a cartridge based on lifespan of the stylus. Nor do I know of any data to support the notion that vdH styli outlast all others, though of course stylus shape seems to affect useful life span, or so I have read, and it makes some sense.
So you’re suggesting that vdH exclusively uses a stylus shape that renders its useful life significantly longer than any styli used by other makers(?)
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I’ll just say I think Grado and Soundsmith have something good going with MI. But yes, implementation is everything.
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Hey Lew - I haven't researched it, I just have never seen another cartridge company talking about stylus lives of 2500-3000 hours. I typically hear 1500. Maybe 1000. If you listen a lot, a VDH will last 3-4 years. If you use another brand and get 75% of the life (probably optimistic) and it costs $500 (or more) to service the cartridge and replace the stylus, that would equate to a savings of over $125 a year (5 decent records). Plus the aggravation factor, especially if you are like me and don't have quality spares laying around to use while the work is taking place.
I don't think the upper VDH cartridge stylus replacements are much if any different than the low-mid models, so if you get higher level one, your ongoing costs shouldn't be much if anything more. A dealer I trust more than any other recommended/sold a barely used VDH to me over 10 years ago and I haven't felt the need to switch. I don't enjoy constantly testing new equipment (especially cartridges) back and forth, and unless you have a multi armed table, it is not a quick and easy thing to do. It is very difficult to remember what something sounds like in an A/B test. I'm not a tinkerer and am mainly interested in having the music I like playing as close to sounding live as possible.
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Dear @sokogear : " van den Hul cartridges use a unique designed.shaped stylus "
Your statement is a misunderstood and is wrong.
VDH S, Ortofon Replicant 100 and Paratrace all are the same stylus shape and comes from Gyger ( do you know that the humble Goldring 1042 comes with the S shaped stylus tip?, well it comes with ! ! ). Please read this post coming from a professional re-tipper that really know what he is talking about.
All these information including the Goldring characteristic are in the long MM thread:
R.
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Is there a MI cartridge that can better the sound of a Lyra Atlas SL?
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@mglik - Better is hard to say since preference can be very subjective and dependent upon how well a cartridge matches an arm and system. A Moving Iron design that could prove a worthy competitor is the Grado Epoch3 at $12K or possibly even their Aeon3 at $6K. Different balance which may appeal to certain listeners compared to the Lyra.
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I read the threads from the link provided by @rauliruegas and it seems @needlestein was the only coherent poster. Raul is correct - I was wrong when I said VDH has a unique stylus design, but the end cartridges results with the stylus is unique.
Bottom line - what other cartridges state their styli last 2500-3000 hours? From people's experience, has anyone had cartridges other than van den Hul's last this long? I would bet most of these guys use so many different cartridges they lose track of how much time is on each one when they have them serviced.
Personally, I would only send my cartridges back to AJ van den Hul for service/maintenace, for any necessary worn parts replacement- be it stylus, cantilever, suspension, whatever. He made it originally and knows what it should be. He has the last word on his own products!
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mglik, I am on the opposite side of your question. I own OEM versions of B&O MMC1 and MMC20CL. I also own Acutex LPM320STRIII which I've heard both in its headshell adapter and in the Acutex Saturn adapter, which is much lower mass than any headshell. All of these are MI types and they are fantastic cartridges. The only MC type that I own that compares is the Ortofon MC2000, used with an external active gain stage into an MM phono input. I would have a hard time choosing among these options. What I wonder is how much better could a $10K+ cartridge like the Lyra Atlas SL be. I'm sure someone is going to pipe up and say that the Atlas SL is better, but I need to hear it for myself.
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It's often said that everyone should try to listen to a Decca moving iron cartridge at least once. Be warned, it's like just one hit of heroin! You may never come back. I have two of them, the Jubilee and the Reference. These are not like the old finicky Decca-made cartridges, but are well made by John Wright, an ex-Decca engineer who has had the patents for them since about 1989 and produces them under the London name. Hum is not a problem anymore. My Benz Micro and Ortofon MCs have stayed in the cupboard for the past eleven years, and I have seen no reason to change out the Reference since I got it. Intricate detail, immediacy, and compulsive foot-tapping rhythm are the reasons. Down sides are a sensitivity to surface noise (which has led to me becoming obsessed with record cleaning. I use a Loricraft and then a Degritter), and the fact the stylus on the tiny armature is easily damaged. You absolutely cannot allow any reverse force, sideways force or even a hard drop onto the record. Wet cleaning is out as well, as any Stylast or similar will get into the cartridge (no long cantilever) and destroy the glue holding the coils onto the magnets, resulting in the cartridge becoming extremely microphonic.
My Reference is currently boxed up and about to set off to the UK to see Mr Wright as it needs a new stylus. I have two other kinds of MI cartridge to keep me going until it returns, as well as the Jubilee. There is a Nagaoka MP-500, which is a different take on MI, but very respectable in performance - even though new, it currently sounds better than the Reference with a worn stylus. That will obviously change when the Reference comes back refreshed. But it's only a fifth of the price, and a bargain at that. I also have a new Grado Lineage Statement 3 to try out. A similar design to the Nagaoka, with a cantilever that doesn't see-saw, but which has an iron collar immediately on the other side of the rubber suspension ring. I am told it will give the Reference quite a challenge, but I'll need to run it in for ~50 hours before it gives its best. By then, I'll have forgotten what the Reference sounded like!
New London Deccas have just stopped production because of difficulties getting the armatures cut. John Wright also wants to retire. It would be wonderful if somebody like Soundsmith or Expert Stylus would take over! Both places are happy to re-tip a Decca/London, but they can't replace a damaged armature if John Wright no longer makes them.
If it sounds like I am over-praising a cartridge that barely anyone uses, go check out the reviews from Fremer and the like - all say the Reference has quirks and disadvantages, but produces heavenly sound. It's certainly my final cartridge. But perhaps check out the cheaper Nagaokas and Grados if you're moving iron curious!
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dogberry"It's often said that everyone should try to listen to a Decca moving iron cartridge"
I have never heard that said, expressed, or claimed in any country I have visited.
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Well, the day has finally come. My Hana ML cartridge should be installed tomorrow. Will report on it soon.
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rvpiano -- Enjoy it!. Eddie likes it...
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Someone on this thread sent me a message about my Decca SC4E. Please send another message via the email route permitted by Audiogon. I cannot find where my internal messages are stored, even though I was there earlier today. To me, navigating the Audiogon website that governs interpersonal interactions of all kinds is a constant game. I have to figure it out all over again each time, because it is illogical. Either that, or I am not as smart as I think I am.
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The Grados seem super interesting.
More than one reviewer called the Epoch3 “the world’s best cartridge”.
Did hear a $25K cartridge in a demo. The Epoch is $12K.
MI could/should be a very different story… maybe preferable?!
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@rvpiano It took about 200hrs for my ML to come to life. Just be patient & enjoy.
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btw @lewm, you're correct that finding where to access those messages can be a bit of an adventure. I don't think you can when in the forums, but when logged in on the main site "audiogon.com" it's accessed by the message bubble icon under your username dropdown in the site's header on the right.
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Bill, Thanks. That's it!!! So messages are in the Dashboard segment, I guess. I found it once and then could not find it again. I guess Agon has to make this difficult in order to protect their own interests.
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Well, I just got the Hana ML.
I’ve tried it out on a few sides. After some initial muddiness, it came to life.
I know it won’t show it’s true character for a while.
But even now, I hear crisper highs, more detail, deeper bass and a very pleasing overall presentation. Nothing harsh or overwrought. Everything in its place.
Records that I thought sonically compromised are sounding just right.
I know it’s just the beginning, but so far, very pleased.
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@rvpiano : That's all about, enjoy it and with more play hours will be better yet.
Congratulations,
R.
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That's the best part.
Records that I thought sonically compromised are sounding just right.
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Everyone is happy in the first 30 minutes of a new device in the audio chain, provided the new thing isn't broken. Wait a week or two. Not that I think you will ultimately be disappointed at all.
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Congratulations. A new better cartridge does great things for your existing vinyl.
Every new cartridge I have ever owned has sounded much better with time in comparison to my initial impression.
From the reviews it is an excellent balance between detail and romance. Sounds like you made a great choice.
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I think I made a great choice too. The only problem is that when you get new equipment you go into analytic mode and stop listening to the music, which is deadly. Every record I put on is analyzed for SQ. No way to live. I hope to convince myself to go back to music enjoyment mode
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RV, You are dead meat, at least in my experience. One of the principle reasons that I got out of vinyl was that I was compulsively listening to all of the audio thingies, like sound stage in particular. I venerated my "Living Stereos"! I came to realize that the cost of vinyl (both the good things and the bad) was the loss of interest in the music itself. Modern digital was good enuf and I can listen thru the digital artifacts and hear the music without much distraction. So much out there in digital (not on LPs) to explore and, potentially at least, enjoy. :-) FWIW.
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newbee,
I totally agree that digital is unlimited in capacity and enjoyment. In the past couple of years I’ve gotten my digital setup to where I want it, and it sounds great. I’ve been enjoying streaming and the SQ it provides a great deal.
BUT, I have over 2000 records many of which also sound great, and I want to get the maximum out of that.
I may indeed be “dead meat” if I can’t reconcile the compulsive analysis with the music. Let’s just say, I know what you’re talking about.
But maybe digital and analog can peacefully coexist.
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One thing that I have reaffirmed is that digital and analog are not nearly so far apart sonically as they once were. The gap is much smaller.
Digital has really come a very long way.
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The most reliable thing for me is whether I drift off and choose to do other things rather than listen to music. When I've got something right I can't wait to get home and turn on the system and play some music.
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@newbee
Ok, that is just sad… a personal problem. Once you get a piece of equipment that sounds great… time to relax and really enjoy it.
Over the decades, I actually realized that that “analytical” mode wasn’t useful for more than a few minutes while auditioning… and that just listening to the music… to see if you get engaged with it, is the best way to evaluate it.
Then when you have brought your new better system and advanced to the new greater level of performance, enjoy it for many years before going for another upgrade.
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“…just listening to the music… to see if you get engaged with it, is the best way to evaluate it.”
Exactly the ideal.
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I’m doing my best to follow that ideal.
A word on the cartridge, though.
After about 30 hours, It really shines in vocals, small ensembles and especially jazz. It still hasn’t really opened up with orchestral recordings. I’m hoping after 50 hours or so it will.
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@rvpiano
Glad to hear you’re enjoying your new cart. I can’t praise enough about its gorgeous presentation for not whole lot of money.
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Lalitk,
it’s starting to sound like you’re right.
It’s opening up with orchestral music.
It’s amazing how much of a part breaking plays.
I wouldn’t have believed how much.
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One thing is for certain, digital is much more consistent sounding than analog.
Every record seems to have a different sonic quality.
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Well, I’ve been playing the Hana cartridge continuously for several days in a row and I’ve accumulated about 50 hours of use on it. Time for a new assessment.
It certainly is an accurate cartridge. I’m hearing details I’ve never heard before.
But, unlike my former cartridge, it is unforgiving of mediocre sounding recordings. Unfortunately, I have several of those. On audiophile quality records it really sounds wonderful. Especially good are smaller groups, Jazz and pop. On orchestral recordings, unless they’re audiophile quality pressings, the results are less favorable.
The reason I started on this adventure of purchasing a new phono preamp and moving coil cartridge was to bring my analog side closer to the quality of my digital side. I’ve more or less succeeded in that. However, as stated, with my setup, digital is more consistent and reliable.
I know this is not true for everyone. You’re experience may certainly vary from mine. It’s also possible, given more break-in, things will change.
I’m not sorry I pursued this path. I’m really enjoying a lot of what this cartridge can do. I just wish it worked better with the majority of orchestral recordings.
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@rvpiano
Sounds like you need a 2nd tonearm and cart for orchestral recordings :-)
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OP,
Like all of audio you can get wildly different results with different cartridges, arms, TT, and phonostages. Choosing a cartridge that suites you aesthetic is key. I like natural / musical first with detail second. So, my Koetsu Rosewood perfectly suits my tastes. Lots of folks like flat out details (along with the cost in noise and many albums sounding bad).
You now have a great data point. Read the reviews on the cartridge… I think there are some that make comparisons to others and you will get a feel for what you like in the spectrum of cartridges.
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OP so let me understand. Your new cartridge can sound wonderful on good recordings but nothing special on just so so pressings? Sounds like that's what is supposed to do to be accurate to the source. Maybe you need a Koetsu cartridge that is more warm, romantic sounding. Lots of choices depending on what you are looking for. Personally I prefer a more accurate sound.
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I guess I’ll have to choose between whether I want sonic thrills or just okay sound with the majority of my collection. I do have a lot of great sounding records.
Ordinarily I listen to streaming. I can spend my analog time now with my good records which really sound wonderful.
An alternative is to go back to my Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge that I thought damaged, but which now appears to be in pretty good shape. That cartridge sounded fine with most orchestral recordings, and also very good with audiophile pressings. The reason I switched to the Hana was, of course, wanting something better, and the reviews were outstanding.
I don’t think my dealer will take back the Hana.
If not, I would try to sell it.
Not sure of what path I’m going to take now.
the two arm solution is not for me.
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You can always do the 2nd headshell route. I'll be going that way with a Kuzma arm.
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RV, FWIW, if you were happy with the Clearaudio cartridge I'd go back to it in a heart beat!
Setting up a great vinyl system is as close to rocket science as you're going to get in this hobby. Everything (!) matters. Some things which I've never seen discussed in these forums.
For example, set up. With cartridges the Stylus shape matters. Conical - simple but not the most revealing. Line contact (micro ridge) very fussy set up wise but when done right its the most revealing. Elliptical - somewhere in the middle. So its easy, you think, get the Line Contact. Not really, because all of a sudden VTA becomes critical. VTA can be a moving target and 'proper' VTA can depend on record thickness. You can solve this by using different thickness mats or getting a tone arm with exchangeable headshells , or you can get a tone arm with VTA adjustable on the fly. Or you can get a second TT etc, one set up for great records and one for ordinary ones. This is only one of the many issues you have to deal with if you want excellence.
I'm sure you've got my point, all great stuff for a anal hobbiest, but it can drive the average user up a wall. (FWIW back in the day I had two TT's, one with a MC cartridge with a line contact stylus (Benz Micro Glider) and one with a MM cartridge (Grace F9) . Lots to play with, too much perhaps for me especially after digital got good legs. My experience with my vinyl recordings validates your findings with the Hana. Some were absolutely great, some not so much, and some were dreck.
Which leads to my recommendation - unless you are prepared for an extensive/expensive trip into 'great' vinyl just enjoy what you are familiar with, i.e. your Clearaudio set up.
BTW I'm impressed with your hearing acuity and evaluative ability, especially for an old retired fart. :-)
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Newbee,
You got that last part right.
And maybe the rest, too. :-)
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What I need now is to get back to the MUSIC!
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OP
It is not as simple as sonic thrills versus just ok sound. This is where quality matters. For instance, my Koetsu Rosewood Signature gives you both. That is why one spends more. Or you can get a cartridge at the price level of mine and get a lot more details than you are getting.
Also, there are levels of other nuances to sound characteristics… which is why there are $20K cartridges… balancing all sorts of attributes. I recommend you give a try to a Koetsu of greater value than the cartridge you purchased and you will get both.
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i have every confidence that the Koetsu Rosewood Signature would work.
Just can’t spend that much right now.
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OP, sure… understood. But you can move through the different possible solutions that you can afford to something that is more toward your tastes.
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Don't Forget that Stylus design plays a huge role in sound quality as well.
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Rvpiano, do you realize that over a less than 3 day period from first listen you were first positive and then fairly negative about the Hana? Give it more time. Based on the date and time stamps on your posts, you claim to have listened for 20 hours in a span of a bit more than 30 hours. (When you went from 30 to 50 hours of listening to the Hana.) Whereupon you seem to have thrown in the towel. And if it’s not tracking orchestral music well , you might consider very slightly increasing VTF until the suspension breaks in. Say 2.1g instead of 2.0g.
Post less and listen more.
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