MM, MC, or MI cartridge

A word on the HanaML: IT KEEPS GETTING BETTER!

Hello,

It sounds like your trying to decide what you want to buy. I would ask: 

1. What is your budget?

2. What is the turntable and system?

3. What kind of music do you listen to?

I know some would say it doesn’t matter what music you listen to and on what equipment, but it does. 
In some eras of recording the recording and process could be less quality than you expect. Like someone said above that MM carts can smooth out the playback which is what you might need for some 70s and 80s recordings. If your into Jazz or classical or want to pay $35-$125 for a great recorded album then I would go MC. MI can be awesome but sometimes you do need the correct phono stage/ preamp to hear it correctly. Sound Smith make some of the most innovative carts in the world. One of the cantilevers are made with a cactus needle. Just awesome! You can call them and let them explain their lineup. 
good inexpensive MM

Sumiko Pearl-$110

Nagoka MP110- $140

Goldring E3 $160

Ortofon 2Mblue-$250

Good inexpensive MC:

Dynavektor 10X5 mk2 $800  - Shibata stylus  

the cool thing about the 10X5 mk 2 is it comes in high output or MM setting on the phono stage but is still a MC. Also, a low output version that needs the MC setting on your phono stage. Yes, I have listened to all of these  

Ortofon Quintet Blue- $600

Hana SL- $800- one of the best value for money carts  

Ortifon Quintet Black- $1100- has a Shibata stylus-

AT- Art9/x- $1100-  

I will tell you that I would go with the Dynavecktor 10x5 Mk2 in high or low output  

It is the best value for money like the less expensive MM above. I have this cart on my Linn Axis. I have the Ortofon Black Quintet on my Mark Levinson 5105.  Just remember you will be going down the rabbit whole sometime in the future so these options are a great start  

beyond these I would really do your homework because the world is your oyster and the prices really clime from here on. Also, some of these new turntables come with nice carts like the Fluance RT85 for $500  it comes with the Ortofon 2m blue or the MP110. I know this was a lot of information but I am trying to guide you in the right direction so you can save your money for the vinyl. 

Cool. Break in is an important part of nearly any audio component.

I'm glad to hear it (as, I'm sure, are you!)

Change of heart. 
 Hana ML finally broke in enough and sounds fantastic.

@rvpiano - Just in case you do peak in & look at this thread again... I really like the Virtuoso cartridge. It sounds wonderful in my system with a Thales Easy arm. I've tried other cartridges with this arm (MM/MI/MC) from my cartridge harem, & although they all sounded good after proper meticulous set-up, the humble Virtuoso shines with the type of music (electronic/electronica) I listen too most. 

If the Decca Londons were available, that is what I would have bought.

But IME with the $13K Lyra Atlas SL, the top line, very pricey cartridge clearly justified its high price and lofty position. I moved up from a very nice Myajima Shalabi. The difference is SQ was shocking. By far, the most improvement of any upgrade in my system.

The Atlas is amazingly good. But I do need to give it a rest. And, to begin with, the Epoch3 is 4 times the output of the Atlas-1mV vs .23mV. So it seems like only that will make the Grado very dynamic. And I am pretty convinced that the Grado will sound very different. Maybe I will prefer it.

My system has recently made a tremendous change going from big box dynamic speakers to Quad 57s. The Quads powered by my AGD Audions have so much newly heard emotion that frequently brings me to tears!

I am very curious to hear what the Epoch3 does to the mids, etc.

At least one review calls the Grado, “the world’s best cartridge”. Let’s see how many grains of salt I take with that.

Nagaoka MP500 is MI???  I always thought of Nagaoka cartridges as MM types.

I went to the Grado site to read about the Epoch3.  It seems like a high premium to pay vs their slightly lesser products for cocobolo wood case, gold coils, a sapphire cantilever, and a stylus shape that they are a bit mysterious in describing but might be elliptical. For about one-third the price, you can have jarrah wood and a boron cantilever (the Statement3).  However, the proof of the pudding is in the music each cartridge makes.

Hope RV does not mind us playing on his thread.

@mglik The Grado Lineage Statement 3 is a little brother to the Epoch 3. It is very quiet as far as surface noise goes. It's a decent cartridge, but I can't say it is better than the Nagaoka MP-500, which has a very similar MI design, and one third the price. Neither comes close to the London Decca Jubilee on my other turntable, and presumably will be even less comparable to the London Decca Reference when it comes back from a re-tip.

I ended up buying a second SME 10 in order to compare these cartridges properly. I expect after some back and forth I will keep one dedicated to the London Reference (it has a Series V arm), and the other, which has an M10/309 arm and interchangeable headshells of which I have three, will house the MP-500, the Statement 3, and one of my old LOMC cartridges, likely a B-M Ruby 3.

I'll be very interested to hear what you make of the Epoch. Moving iron designs are fascinating, and it's sad that new London Deccas have stopped production as John Wright has run out of armatures and the company that made them has gone out of business. The Deccas are often difficult to suit to a tonearm, though the Jubilee and Reference are much easier to mount and enjoy than the older designs, and have a remarkable sound that leaves other designs struggling in their wake.

@mglik I’ve heard the Epoch3 very nice a bit smooth sounding and more laid back and not a forceful cartridge which can be good or ok depending on your preferences.

Very curious about MI.

Next week will install my new Grado Epoch3. And uninstall my Lyra Atlas SL.

Will report my findings on my Triplanar SE arm and Woodsong Garrard 301.

Big Greg (and rv). Who was negative?

Post removed Jul 28, 2022

Big Greg (and rv). Who was negative? The responses are of two types.(1) suggestions for altering the setup parameters, and (2) suggestions to allow time for further break-in, which makes a significant difference in my experience, particularly for MC cartridges that tend to be low compliance. My AT ART7 took at least 100 hours to stabilize, for example, and its compliance is actually higher than that of a typical MC.

Anyway, the OP has vowed to ignore his thread, so I expect he won’t be reading this.

An alternative is to go back to my Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge that I thought damaged, but which now appears to be in pretty good shape. That cartridge sounded fine with most orchestral recordings, and also very good with audiophile pressings. The reason I switched to the Hana was, of course, wanting something better, and the reviews were outstanding.

Ignore the negativity.  The Virtuoso is a very nice cartridge, but the Hana should be noticeably "better".  I own the Virtuoso and have a Hana SL and have listened to the ML for a few hours on a friend's table that is setup very similarly to mine.  

I suggest checking and experimenting with your setup, including the settings on your phono stage.  You should get better clarity and detail with the Hana and a more neutral presentation than the Virtuoso.  I rarely listen to orchestral music, but the Hana should hold together better than the Virtuoso with difficult passages.  If you prefer something more "colored" or "lush", then it indeed may not be the cartridge for you.  Also check to make sure it's a good match with your tonearm. Do you have a test record?

I'm sure some of these things I mentioned have already been covered, but I don't have time to re-read the entire thread. Good luck!

Thank you all for your help and very helpful suggestions.
 The Hana cartridge is obviously not for me.
I won’t be posting anymore or following this discussion.

@rvpiano, I have 245 hrs. on my ML.

It went thru many changes in that time.

25,60,80 hrs. were all changes for me. Then @ the 213hr mark it came of age, sought of speak. I level my Head shell & not the arm (SME-309). Head Shell wires have a lot to do with the sound. Maybe look for OCC copper wire & or drop the rear of the arm if possible. I also have the Cadenza Black that I switch from time to time, but can't seem to get the bottom end rite for my likening. I hope this helps.

Rvpiano, do you realize that over a less than 3 day period from first listen you were first positive and then fairly negative about the Hana? Give it more time. Based on the date and time stamps on your posts, you claim to have listened for 20 hours in a span of a bit more than 30 hours. (When you went from 30 to 50 hours of listening to the Hana.) Whereupon you seem to have thrown in the towel. And if it’s not tracking orchestral music well , you might consider very slightly increasing VTF until the suspension breaks in. Say 2.1g instead of 2.0g.

Post less and listen more.

Don't Forget that Stylus design plays a huge role in sound quality as well. 

OP, sure… understood. But you can move through the different possible solutions that you can afford to something that is more toward your tastes.

i have every confidence that the Koetsu Rosewood Signature would work.

 Just can’t spend that much right now.

OP

It is not as simple as sonic thrills versus just ok sound. This is where quality matters. For instance, my Koetsu Rosewood Signature gives you both. That is why one spends more. Or you can get a cartridge at the price level of mine and get a lot more details than you are getting.

Also, there are levels of other nuances to sound characteristics… which is why there are $20K cartridges… balancing all sorts of attributes. I recommend you give a try to a Koetsu of greater value than the cartridge you purchased and you will get both.

What I need now is to get back to the MUSIC!

Newbee,

 You got that last part right.
 And maybe the rest, too. :-)

RV, FWIW, if you were happy with the Clearaudio cartridge I'd go back to it in a heart beat! 

Setting up a great vinyl system is as close to rocket science as you're going to get in this hobby. Everything (!) matters. Some things which I've never seen discussed in these forums. 

For example, set up. With cartridges the Stylus shape matters. Conical - simple but not the most revealing. Line contact (micro ridge) very fussy set up wise but when done right its the most revealing. Elliptical - somewhere in the middle. So its easy,  you think, get the Line Contact. Not really, because all of a sudden VTA becomes critical. VTA can be a moving target and 'proper' VTA can depend on record thickness. You can solve this by using different thickness mats or getting a tone arm with exchangeable headshells , or you can get a tone arm with  VTA adjustable on the fly. Or you can get a second TT etc, one set up for great records and one for ordinary ones. This is only one of the many issues you have to deal with if you want excellence.

I'm sure you've got my point, all great stuff for a anal hobbiest, but it can drive  the average user up a wall. (FWIW back in the day I had two TT's, one with a MC cartridge with a line contact stylus (Benz Micro Glider) and one with a MM cartridge (Grace F9) . Lots to play with, too much perhaps for me especially after digital got good legs. My experience with my vinyl recordings validates your findings with the Hana. Some were absolutely great, some not so much, and some were dreck.

Which leads to my recommendation - unless you are prepared for an extensive/expensive trip into 'great' vinyl just enjoy what you are familiar with, i.e. your Clearaudio set up.

BTW I'm impressed with your hearing acuity and evaluative ability, especially for an old retired fart. :-) 

You can always do the 2nd headshell route. I'll be going that way with a Kuzma arm. 

I guess I’ll have to choose between whether I want sonic thrills or just okay sound with the majority of my collection. I do have a lot of great sounding records.
Ordinarily I listen to streaming. I can spend my analog time now with my good records which really sound wonderful.

An alternative is to go back to my Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge that I thought damaged, but which now appears to be in pretty good shape. That cartridge sounded fine with most orchestral recordings, and also very good with audiophile pressings. The reason I switched to the Hana was, of course, wanting something better, and the reviews were outstanding.
I don’t think my dealer will take back the Hana.
If not, I would try to sell it.
Not sure of what path I’m going to take now. 
the two arm solution is not for me.

OP so let me understand. Your new cartridge can sound wonderful on good recordings but nothing special on just so so pressings? Sounds like that's what is supposed to do to be accurate to the source. Maybe you need a Koetsu cartridge that is more warm, romantic sounding. Lots of choices depending on what you are looking for. Personally I prefer a more accurate sound.

OP,

Like all of audio you can get wildly different results with different cartridges, arms, TT, and phonostages. Choosing a cartridge that suites you aesthetic is key. I like natural / musical first with detail second. So, my Koetsu Rosewood perfectly suits my tastes. Lots of folks like flat out details (along with the cost in noise and many albums sounding bad).

You now have a great data point. Read the reviews on the cartridge… I think there are some that make comparisons to others and you will get a feel for what you like in the spectrum of cartridges. 

@rvpiano 

Sounds like you need a 2nd tonearm and cart for orchestral recordings :-) 

Well, I’ve been playing the Hana cartridge continuously for several days in a row and I’ve accumulated  about 50 hours of use on it.  Time for a new assessment. 
 It certainly is an accurate cartridge.  I’m hearing details I’ve never heard before. 
 But, unlike my former cartridge, it is unforgiving of mediocre sounding recordings.  Unfortunately, I have several of those. On audiophile quality records it really sounds wonderful.  Especially good are smaller groups, Jazz and pop. On orchestral recordings, unless they’re audiophile quality pressings, the results are less favorable.
The  reason I started on this adventure of purchasing a new phono preamp and moving coil cartridge was to bring my analog side closer to the quality of my digital side. I’ve more or less succeeded in that.  However, as stated, with my setup, digital is more consistent and reliable.  
 I know this is not true for everyone.  You’re experience may certainly vary from mine.  It’s also possible, given more break-in, things will change. 
 I’m not sorry I pursued this path.  I’m really enjoying a lot of what this cartridge can do.  I just wish it worked better with the majority of orchestral recordings.

One thing is for certain, digital is much more consistent sounding than analog. 
 Every record seems to have a different sonic quality.

Lalitk,

it’s starting to sound like you’re right.
It’s opening  up with orchestral music. 
It’s amazing how much of a part  breaking plays. 
I wouldn’t have believed how much.

@rvpiano 

Glad to hear you’re enjoying your new cart. I can’t praise enough about its gorgeous presentation for not whole lot of money. 

I’m doing my best to follow that ideal.

A word on the cartridge, though.
After about 30 hours, It really shines in vocals, small ensembles and especially jazz. It still hasn’t really opened up with orchestral recordings. I’m hoping after 50 hours or so it will.

“…just listening to the music… to see if you get engaged with it, is the best way to evaluate it.”

Exactly the ideal.

@newbee 

Ok, that is just sad… a personal problem. Once you get a piece of equipment that sounds great… time to relax and really enjoy it.
 

Over the decades, I actually realized that that “analytical” mode wasn’t useful for more than a few minutes while auditioning… and that just listening to the music… to see if you get engaged with it, is the best way to evaluate it.

Then when you have brought your new better system and advanced to the new greater level of performance, enjoy it for many years before going for another upgrade. 

The most reliable thing for me is whether I drift off and choose to do other things rather than listen to music. When I've got something right I can't wait to get home and turn on the system and play some music.

One thing that I have reaffirmed is that digital and analog are not nearly so far apart sonically as they once were. The gap is much smaller. 
 Digital has really come a very long way. 

newbee,

I totally agree that digital is unlimited in capacity and enjoyment. In the past couple of years I’ve gotten my digital setup to where I want it, and it sounds great.  I’ve been enjoying streaming and the SQ it provides a great deal. 
BUT, I have over 2000 records many of which also sound great, and I want to get the maximum out of that. 
I may indeed be “dead meat” if I can’t reconcile the compulsive analysis with the music.  Let’s just say, I know what you’re talking about.

 But maybe digital and analog can peacefully coexist.

RV, You are dead meat, at least in my experience. One of the principle reasons that I got out of vinyl was that I was compulsively listening to all of the audio thingies, like sound stage in particular. I venerated my "Living Stereos"! I came to realize that the cost of vinyl (both the good things and the bad) was the loss of interest in the music itself. Modern digital was good enuf and I can listen thru the digital artifacts and hear the music without much distraction. So much out there in digital (not on LPs) to explore and, potentially at least, enjoy. :-) FWIW.

I think I made a great choice too.  The only problem is that when you get new equipment you go into analytic mode and stop listening to the music, which is deadly.  Every record I put on is analyzed for SQ.  No way to live.  I hope to convince myself to go back to music enjoyment mode

Congratulations. A new better cartridge does great things for your existing vinyl.

Every new cartridge I have ever owned has sounded much better with time in comparison to my initial impression. 
 

From the reviews it is an excellent balance between detail and romance. Sounds like you made a great choice. 

Yes, I know.

Everyone is happy in the first 30 minutes of a new device in the audio chain, provided the new thing isn't broken.  Wait a week or two.  Not that I think you will ultimately be disappointed at all.

That's the best part.

Records that I thought sonically compromised are sounding just right. 

@rvpiano  : That's all about, enjoy it and with more play hours will be better yet.

Congratulations,

R.

Well, I just got the Hana ML.  

I’ve tried it out on a few sides.  After some initial muddiness, it came to life.
I know it won’t show it’s true character for a while.
 But even now, I hear crisper highs, more detail, deeper bass and a very pleasing overall presentation. Nothing harsh or overwrought. Everything in its place. 
Records that I thought sonically compromised are sounding just right. 
I know it’s just the beginning, but so far, very pleased.

Bill, Thanks.  That's it!!!  So messages are in the Dashboard segment, I guess.  I found it once and then could not find it again.  I guess Agon has to make this difficult in order to protect their own interests.

btw @lewm, you're correct that finding where to access those messages can be a bit of an adventure. I don't think you can when in the forums, but when logged in on the main site "audiogon.com" it's accessed by the message bubble icon under your username dropdown in the site's header on the right.