It is a pleasure to learn that certain individuals make it their concern to Censor my Posts and not read them. The fact effort is made to achieve this, strongly suggests there is some underlying emotional triggered issues not able to be resolved.
It is also Hilarious to learn of a certain individual, who has added as a very recent content to their Posts, the referencing ‘Amygdala’ and a Value for a RIAA. Is not having read Posts from the individual having brought these Subjects to the forefront of a discussion, suggesting Telepathy is now able to be exercised.
The idea of having Telepathy as an extension of the usual senses, is a little bit Fantastical. I would use Fantastical, another might say Delusional.
There are many times on the Gon, that my finger tips radiate a smile on each Keyboard contact. There are Posts made / to be made that are to make the involvement a highly amusing place to be, when interacting on the Gon', especially the Analog Section.
Such effort in place for the avoidance / pretending to avoid 🤣 my Posts, do seem to be limited to the forum member, that are as a Keyboard Cruncher, making themselves known in a very small area of activity.
It does seem as a forum member, this type of individual has found a place where being Obsessed with their neediness to be seen as an Authority and being Significant has a place that a tolerance is shown for it.
I also express a Tolerance to it, otherwise, I might express a different reaction to the ugliness of Posts that can delivered with such sprite or venom.
Let the Jury decide on how ugly and venomous a Post can be.
For those that are looking in and not too involved with their contributing. There are certain individuals within a Forum, that are present with a predatory pursuit , they are regularly, maybe even always, contributing to steer.
Again let the Jury decide on the agenda of the individual.
Within certain Threads on Audiogon, certain types of agenda where self interest is the fundamental, is attached like a Humongous Carbunckle. It becomes the Cornerstone of the Subject under discussion. Possibly my suspecting such Self Interest is once more prevailing , is the basis of this Post. Is not there recent announcement's of new electronics merchandise coming to fruition ??, especially centred around, previous Phon' Models being superseded with new models.
I don't doubt anybody's capabilities who make claim, to be able to produce electronic devices, maybe some above average, to be used for Audio Purposes. As I am not familiar with much work undertaken, it would be silly to suggest a Audio Product does not satisfy, as a result of not having received a Demo’ and in front of listening experience.
I also don't believe that the Math is King as some do, there is plenty known to strongly suggest the Math is one Variable in the overall.
The Math for the Electronics only becomes Sound as it leaves a Speakers Cross Over and Drives a Speaker to move Air.
Sound is the transfer of an energy to make air move.
Sound is the end goal, and assessing sound is a great way to decide where one is content with the experience being had.
All that comes before sound is management of electricity through a range of devices.
When voicing of a device is undertaken, the Math can be tweaked endlessly to create a perception the end sound is a betterment.
When voicing a device that is already proven adequately in the Math Department, the end sound is the area of interest, the Math concern becomes a lesser interest.
End Sound is what matters, End Sound is the area that almost all with an interest in Audio Equipment express as an Interest.
All Electronic Devices assembled to produce a Audio System will produce sound, as the end result and that in general is plenty enough for most.
A smaller selection of users of Audio Systems seek out a refinement of the end sound being produced. Usually making decisions on very very personal preference's for their attraction to a particular sound.
I make references to my own preferences in Threads and on occasion, others who contribute are seen to express their own too.
Also what is interesting is that those who put substantial attention on to the one variable being the Math, are not too forward with their perceptions of sound. It does seem there is a selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound.
This selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound, may have something, but I am where I am in my own Journey, and as I don’t do the Math, it is an area I leave to other’s better than myself at such practices. As in all academic activity, there are expanses of knowledge and learning capability that differentiates individuals. One would be considered conceited if there self assessment of their capability was unusually elevated.
For myself to date, I remain totally trusting of individuals I have selected for their adeptness and skillset in such an area where Math is required.
As an individual who has experienced the end sound from a reasonable amount of Systems, which has incurred a broad range of Costs to create. As well as having heard selected devices added to a few systems that have been quite impressionable.
I have confidence and little concerns about my assessment of an end sound being produced. As an assessment offered from myself, is solely based on my unique preference for what an end sound can offer, along with a description of the impression having been made.
In relation to all Demo's had of the Paradise, it has been on a £200Kish System.
The Demo's were carried out in comparison to a range of Phon's present on the days I was in attendance of which the upper price range exceeds £10K.
I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together.
The following is something the individuals with a Self Interest might not want the broader forum membership to be introduced to:
I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's and I can also add, a UK Known Audio Journalist with over 30 Years as a Journalist/Editor.
Across the entirety of the attendees and cross talk, it would seem most will be somewhere in an agreement, that for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build, to have this as an item of interest would be very wise and prudent with ones finances.
As an assessment made with confidence, based on experiences had, an individual might just find their end game Phon', that presents in a way they are totally satisfied with for very very sensible monies. It costs $00.00 and no pressure applied from the self interested types, to take the time to see how a Paradise Phon' can be produced for themselves.
For myself, I have my interest on another SS Phon' produced not too long ago and one that is continuously gaining a following across the Globe.
A Statement follows, that was made earlier in this Thread reflects my own activities around Audio and one that I am total agreement with.
"Unfortunately I no longer have that decent sized group of audio friends nearby. That was important since in San Diego I had opportunities to hear many different audio systems in a variety of home settings. Just like live unamplified music, and the almost embarrassing number of components I've gone through, hearing a multitude of different systems is an education for our ears. "
I tip my hat to the foot work done.
Locked away solely in a room, and believing one has all the credentials to be a Armchair Audio Critic - Blah Blah Blah.
To those using Telepathy - Happy Fantastical Reading 🤣🤣🤣
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@rauliruegas Then, Why does my Atlas sound better in current mode? It also has more gain and a better signal to noise ratio.
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Dear @mijostyn : " It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. "
NO, it's the inconsistence of your current design phono stage where the manufacturer works more for specs than almost everything in his designs.
As the @dover current design phono stages my experiences with the Classé Audio first true high end current design/Natural Impedance Loading where exactly the same working perfect to over 40ohm cartridges.
Additionala gentleman with my 12 years ago phono stage voltage design and against the BMC ( that I know does not works for specs only.) he prefers that voltage design with the same cartridges and LP recordings.
I just had the Swiss made CH current/voltage design with almost the same Lyra you own and the voltage unit I own outperformed and I know that the CH is way better design that your unit. Maybe your experiences about are alittle tolimited using that current design unit and perhaps you never had the opportunity to listen a state of the art voltage phono state design.
So, you and me have different first hand experiences about and that's all. Cartridges are not the culprit,at least not the MC Diamond that you can besure will performs very well in the CH.
R.
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Dear @dover : You are rigth, that RIAA spec is a ridiculous one but thatonly says the " stupid "level/audio knowledge that has whom posted. I never read his posts, useless.
Btw, this is coming from the manufacturer site:
" Ideal for professional use in bars and clubs and for at-home DJs and musicians who know what an RIAA curve should sound like, "
Who know what an RIAA should sound like: Really?. Same stupidity .
Yes, we have to learn about.
R.
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@rauliruegas It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. In my experience the cartridges that work best in current mode have an impedance less than 5 ohms. It is generally said 10 ohms, but I think this is overly optimistic. I would not use transimpedance mode with any cartridge with an impedance higher than 3 ohms. Then the performance is definitive. This represents a very small selection of cartridges, the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option.
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I looked for the Paradise on line. Found a thread that included many favorable opinions of 3- and 4-box versions. Seems to be a mix of SS and tube gain devices. Since it’s got tubes for gain, I doubt it operates based on current or transconductance, unless the latter term is used to describe voltage mode. Because tubes lose transconductance as they age which would screw up RIAA. But still, it is much admired. Reminds me of the Herron phono that has ardent supporters in this side of the pond.
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@dover As you are aware and others are within the Gon's Analog Section.
I have left on the Sub's Bench, equipment that plenty would really like to own, even aspire to own, as a result of the 'Personal Experiences' had through 'Demonstration' of alternatives options on tools to function as a equivalent role.
I am not forming an 'Opinion' I am making known how a 'Personal Experience' as a result of a 'Demonstration' made an impression.
I totally agree that my assessment made known is merely another 'Opinion' in the mix, and it is relevant to where my interest is at present.
The idea that certain experiences are indelible, keeps them at the forefront of sharing experiences.
Your last comments made are I assume based on your want to have a say other than an assessment of a direct experience through demonstration.
I am pleased to inform you, that you are to get the Hat Today to wear the following in a very Public Place:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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@pindac
RIAA that follows: +0.3db c 20hz and 17khz
This might have been state of the art back in the early 1960's - but not even close today. There are tube phonos today more accurate than that.
You were listening to a RIAA tone control designed for the DIY/DJ market.
Bit like your much vaunted tonearm you keep banging on about which is just a modified Audio Technica AT1010 - nothing state of the art there. Its just a good 1970's tonearm - with upgraded bearings etc but still has major inherent design flaws compared to todays arms and is far from state the art around materials, energy control etc.
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In another Forum the renowned EE Producer was asked about his setting for the RIAA, as there is talk in Build Threads about the Original Design, having a Bespoke RIAA advised by the Creator of the Paradise.
I fell confident in saying I have been demo'd Paradise Phon's, especially the Four Box Design, with the RIAA that follows:
+0.3db c 20hz and 17khz
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I don't know or didn't know what a "transconductance" phono stage is, but I do know that the word "transconductance" has a specific definition, in that it is a measure of how voltage output changes with respect to current input, usually measured in A/V, and since that is the inverse of an ohm, the units are "mhos". For triodes, typically expressed in micromhos. Anyway, Dover, thanks for your response to my question. If you are correct, then that seems a bit of an odd way to do RIAA, since the RIAA curve is defined based on voltage changes, owing to the fact that a magnetic phono cartridge of any category, increases its output voltage according to stylus velocity, which increases with frequency. So an RIAA filter operates based on db as a measure of relative signal voltage amplitude. But since db starts life as a measure of Power, I guess it can also be a measure of current. I dunno.
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@lewm
It would appear that Pindac is a devotee of the "new" sciences. If the Paradise identifies as a trans it is all encompassing.
The Paradise is a DIY phono that has a RIAA curve that has been jacked up in the bass ( "a slight enhancement in the lower frequency ranges" according to their website ). From what I can see it has a fixed 1600ohm MC input and you use loading resistors to adjust the load that the cartridge sees.
Clearly there appears to be some confusion in this thread about transconcuctance and transimpedance.
Transconductance converts voltage ( ex MC ) to current.
Transimpedance converts current ( ex MC ) to voltage.
So I assume ( I’m not a technical guru here ) that
For a transconductance phono they converting the MC voltage to current, followed by a current amplication stage to amplify the signal, and then I would assume coverting the amplified current back to voltage, since most domestic audio components assume a voltage gain device precedes them.
For a transimpedance phono, I would assume they convert the MC current to voltage at the input stage, and then amplify the signal using a voltage amplification stage.
Unfortunately many audio reviewers describe transimpedance phono stages as current gain phonos, which is not strictly accurate. Most are what I assume would be a combination of current input and voltage gain stages.
Of the transimpedance type personally I have listened to at length ( for some years ) to the Nibiru, BMC, Van den Hul Grail SE and a custom transimpedance head amp unit built by Reno Andreoli. The units built by Reto are so good I bought two of them.
The Van den Hul Grail SE and Reto’s custom units are in a different league to the others.
In terms of cartridge compatibility Reno’s cartridges are 40ohms and my units have truckloads of gain for all of my MC cartridges which range from 3-40 ohms. They will amplify any MC from 0.1mv up.
The Van den Hul Grail SE I have set up with both low impedance ( Koetsu/Kuzma ) and medium impedance ( Van den Hul Grand Cru ) - plenty of gain for both. Actually the gain range with the Van den Hul phono is massive and is dialled in to the cartridge using internal selectable settings.
From the owner of both the BMC and Nibiru he has found the matching with cartridges is quite sensitive and can produce different results between the 2 phonos.
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"Transconductance" = voltage mode amplification, the way you are using the term?
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@lewm The Transconductance Phon' , I am referring to is the Paradise.
I have heard this in various build guises, from an individual's DIY attempt.
DIY Built with a renowned UK EE who builds these as the mentor and also the Bespoke Four Box Version produced by the renowned UK EE.
I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together, where the Resident System is costing approx' £200K.
I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, as well as a Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's.
Across the entirety of the attendees most will agree, for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build.
Ownership of one is a no brainer, as as £10K - £20K more will be required to get close to a version of a presentation that competes.
My Tonearm Designers own Design SS Phon', only made available to the Broader Audio Community about a year ago has been compared to the above Phon'.
Interesting outcomes have followed, as a few owners of the above Phon' have superseded this with the new available Phon'.
Even more interesting one customer has superseded their very expensive commercial Phon', with this new available Phon'.
I am very familiar with my Tonearm Designers Phon' and it is the one that I believe will be the SS Phon' that I will have around me for when I stop using Valves.
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probably just another reason to recommend: This is What it Sounds Like by Susan Rogers and Ogi Ogas, ii found it of some value…
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Dear @dogberry :Everything what I posted in this thread is not " one man best " and let me explain about.
Historically when I post about electronics or cartridges that someone else brought to my place to listen his or their audio items normally the listening sessions are for the guests ( 2-3 of them , very rare that came only one ) and what this means?:
I never gave/give to them my opinion on what I'm experimenting with those " new " items in my system. Conclusions do not come from mebut from them where sometimes coicide with my take and in other times not exactly as that.Aniway at the end of the sessions always discuss about and if necesary I repeat the listen experience where are to many doubts.
My opinion NEVER is one man opinion ( at least in the late times. ) and I want to let
clear.
In the other side and a bout current vs voltage mode @lewm posted: " Nor would Raul... "
certainly I can't do it because I don't know each phono stage circuit boards design but as general voltage design is the way to go and I don't want to repeat what other very high knowledge technical gentlemans already posted in 2-3 other threads. but the inconsistency of current drive wasposted here by mijos when he posted that the Lyra works really good and the MC Diamond runs better in voltage mode and that's only an example. Now, the CH is toptop phono stage design and wasnot me but other two gentlemans whom said what I posted that I agree with.
R.
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dogberry, To the question posed in the first paragraph of your post, most of us would say "of course not". We each hear differently for reasons that have been belabored here many times over. At the same time, I would like to think that when we say something is "blue", we all have an idea what blue is, except of course those of who are color-blind with respect to blue. So if ten out of ten or eleven of us say that a cartridge sounds like X, I tend to believe I have some idea how that cartridge sounds, in some other systems, and even though I have never heard the cartridge.
As far as this business of ascribing separate powers and specific functions that govern our perceptions of audio systems to different regions of the brain (amygdala, limbic system, etc), I say as a physician and scientist (albeit not a neuroscientist) please take that information with more than a dollop of salt. The subject is interesting but the supporting data are conditional at best. Nor do I think it even matters how we process the audible information that comes out of our audio systems. But certainly I don't feel that my life is threatened (necessitating a fight or flight response) when listening to Miles Davis.
Pindac, You mentioned a "transconductance" phono stage. By that term do you mean to indicate a stage that uses voltage gain, as opposed to current gain, at its input?
With regard to Raul's recent experience with current drive, I tend to agree, but I would not at all feel qualified to say that all voltage gain phono stages are superior to all current driven phono stages. (Nor would Raul, I am sure.) I would only say that current drive is no panacea for all that may ail voltage drive. This is based on my own experiments in my own home system using several different LOMC cartridges
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Perhaps we should consider, without getting quasi-philosophical, to what extent musical experiences are transferable? In other words, will one man's "best" cartridge be perceived as being the "best" by someone else? Put it like that and it seems very likely that it will not.
We always end up suggesting and promoting what we like, and that is, after all, pretty much to be expected. But someone else's preference is at best a suggestion for consideration. It is important to listen for ourselves, and to trust our own subjective experience. Fear Of Missing Out is a lousy guide to buying equipment, and while it allows us to feel like an accepted member of the tribe, it does not necessarily provide us with the most enjoyable musical experiences.
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@mijostyn : I can't talk on the Atlas but the Etna is similar design and sounds better through voltage design. The issue here is not " depends of cartridge " but more depend of phono stage/line electronics design. Even in the CH by a " hair " the Etna performs better than in current mode. Everything the same there is no reason for current outperforms voltage designs.
No he does not buy it because he has only 3 months with his CH that was an important investment around 54K and that's with out a line stage, so is an expensive stand alone phone stage.
Btw, I don't know yet which cartridge can outperforms the Astatic MF 200, is a tremendous and outstanding performer that at least for me tell me that phono cartridge today are only " refinenments " cartridges but I wondering which kind of refinements when a way vintage cartrridge design beats that top today cartridge and things are that at the end the cartridge motors is still the " same " with out a true deep changes. I think I paid 150 for the MF 200 that's in as new condition due that in those times I always try to buy at least 2 samples of the same model ( really inexpensive. ) due that were vintage and almost all second or third hand even in NOS condition a few times the cartridge gone down/failed.
R.
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@rauliruegas It really depends on the cartridge Raul. The Atlas SL sounds better with a lower signal to noise level in current mode, but the MC Diamond sounds better in Voltage mode. The Hyperon only works in voltage mode. It's great that your 3180 sounds so good. Maybe your friend will purchase one?
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Dear friends: I had a really motivated and learning week end at my place.
A close audio friend came with a good friend of him that in the past been listened twice my system but this time he brought his 3 months old CHP1/X1 and his Lyra Etna Lambda SL and obviously with the CH recording to use the CH Wizard.
He ask to listen the Etna in the CH current sensing mode and that latter on in the normal voltage mode. I have to say that was and is a great opportunity for me not only tolisten the CH in my system but make several comparisons between current/voltage and even that the CH owner was not interested about we listen too MM/MI cartridges. We had a 7 full hours ( at least maybe a little more. ) of great listening fun where all of us learned.
We started to connect the P1 to my Essential 3180 integrated line stage for listen the Etna in current mode ( made it all the protocol in the CH digital software. ).
The CH owner knew my room/system qulity level performance . I was not surprised of the very high CH/Etna listened quality levels but who was surprised was the CH owner due that the 3180 line stage is a unique elctronic design. He brought wiith him his own LPs and I listened too to some mine. After a time weswitched to voltage mode where there we can't find out a winner mode stage and only we have a winner when we switched the Etna tomy voltage Essential 3180 that was really better than the CH in current/voltage modes.
The lessons for allof us is that current mode in reality is not what today phono stages owners believe where the voltage in my 3180 is superior and in the CH through the 3180 line stage is at least at the same level than current mode and we had not any singlenoise levels better in current mode than voltage one. So I confirmed that current superiority is only a myht and not so good voltage designs against it.
But the big surprise for my audio friends where when I switched to a MF cartridge that @dgarretson named in this thread Astatic MF 200 where the top of the line is the MF 100 that I sold because the MF 200 is superior quality performer and the best of Astatic was the earlier MF 2500 that today I really regret to sold it.
Terrifc ( forsay the least ) quality levelperformance that no one but me could believe because the MF 200 outperformed the Etna in the CH or in the 3180. The MF 200 in the CH plays really good too but not like in the 3180.
All those confirm what in this thread and in other threads I posted that to really appreciate the true MM/MI/etc we need the rigth MM phono/line stagesand I'm proud to have it.
I remember than a friend Agoner that when the MMlong thread were with posts after more posts bymany audiophiles I told him to buy some of the real top cartridges that we can boughtfor less than 200 dollars and he never want it he was pesimistic/incredulous even with several audiophiles opinions about and obviously that losted that great opportunity and that same gentleman I offered twice that " rigth " MM stage and as with the cartridges he just rejected.
That's why I'm glad with the @dgarretson posts because he pulls the triger in those times, good.
That's the way I learned everything in my audio life:I almost always try everything and almost never say no.
R.
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@avanti1960 What was the $2k MI cartridge? If you don't want to say it out loud you could always PM me. I'm suspecting an Aida based on the price.
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IME
$2K LOMC Cartridge- 10 / 10. The best sound I have heard vinyl make in my system.
$2K MI Cartridge- 7 / 10. Tried a supposed excellent MI cartridge and it was a disappointment.
$1K MM Cartridge- 6/10. Not bad but still did not compete with the LOMCs at or above its price in terms of refinement and dynamics.
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On this subject there is endless reading to be done and much is for the mindsets that are fully academic and research this field of Science.
As an absolute Layman and having learned research has stepped into the research of the Amygdala in a unusually intensified manner in the past 10 years.
There is now a lot of info that strongly suggests the Amygdala is the Gateway to how each Human has a unique relationship with their Environments and each individual are unique in their Sensory Perception.
Sound is one Sensory Perception that the Amygdala is going to process, and stimulate the Limbic System.
This is Survival and each individual is unique in how their Electrical Activity and Chemical Activity.
"With information traveling at 260 mph, more than 100,000 chemical reactions occurring per second, 86 billion cells and over 10,000 types of neurons, the human brain is probably the most complex entity known to man."
"One intriguing aspect of the limbic system as a mechanism for multiple chemical sensitivities is the system's responsiveness to both chemical and cortical stimuli. Therefore, conscious thought processes and emotional states influence limbic activity just as chemical or physical stimuli can. The former may be under more or less conscious control of the individual, whereas the latter arc almost entirely unconscious and automatic However, conscious efforts that play into the delicate circuitry of the limbic system may be able to alter or suppress concurrent electrical activity evoked by environmental agents."
My putting such info out there, is for one reason only, much of what one thinks they are contributing in elation to how an end sound has impacted on / influenced them. Is not their assessment of s Sound but a very unique response / reaction to a stimuli sent as a part of survival function within the body from a sensory perception created in a particular environment.
When an individual can get to the place, that they have one grain of sands worth of acceptance of this. The Flood Gates will open for them, and they will be quite liberated, knowing their interaction with sound is unique and not able to be replicated by another.
Or as an alternative, an individual might struggle with the concept of not being an authority, and will not even accept a Sand Grain of the knowledge strongly suggesting, their interaction with sound is unique, not able to be replicated by another's and is pretty much worthless to another individual.
"All things being equal" It is impossible to factor in only the Math and Production of a Particular device designed to create manage electricity. At one point the Electricity will meet with a Part designed to Transfer received Electrical Energy into a Sound.
When this sound is experienced the Human has a Survival Function, that will override all intellect, and will most likely be the control of the intellect to manifest.
All the above without adding to the mix, Phonophobia and Hyperacusis Tolerances, that are exponentially increasing in numbers being afflicted with symptoms as age increases.
I am not tested for Phonophobia or Hyperacusis, but I would bet I have a symptom discovered? I would bet I persevere with a enforced tolerance for my want to enjoy experiencing music.
Strange Fact to Ponder: Some of the most renowned and revered, who have produced Amplified Music have when tested, shown both P'phobia and H'acusis Symptoms that are quite prevalent.
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@pindac Not really chemical reaction. Read about neurotransmitters and vestibular nucleus.
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Now the subject is taking on a vety important area to be considered.
Assessments of Audio {produced sound} are an Environmental Occurrence.
The Amygdala sends info on into the limbic system, that generates millions of Chemical Reactions, each unique to each individuai in how they influence a response or reaction to an exposure to a happening in their Environment.
Read all the Books and White Papers one likes, the Amygdala is Survival, Humans are unable Control their survival mechanisms, but are very selective in academia they choose to learn .
Nobody can evaluate or make a choice, as a result of their being a stimulus Sent to the Amygdala, without survival function having manifested, way before choices are made.
It something to be embraced not fought, even the smallest of willingness to comprehend is weight of one's shoulders.
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Dear @pryso :closed eyes/open eyes. Debate?
Certainly not because that listening characteristic is PERSONAL and each one of us is different in that specific regards.
It’s the same with the near field listening position, in both cases mijostyn posted what for me is his personal opinion where I disagree with him. His Amygdala has different information that mine.
R.
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@mijostyn : " separate the audio band which is noticeable as you walk up the speaker. "
Not in mines that are true Professional Studio Monitors ( yes, for Studio recording not to audiophiles and that's how ADS designed. Telarc was one of the labels that trusted in those monitors. ) where you can detect something if you are walking at less than 1m. I think is better that you talk of what you have that what other experiences are . Of course that you are free to talk of whatever you want any time you want it.
" Because I can’t listen to every cartridge out there I am not interested in the quality of performance of my system? So, the Atlas SL, MC Diamond and Hyperion MR are second rate cartridges? "
What I posted is not " every cartridge out there " but cartridges that beats the Hyperion and MC Diamond and I don’t know about the Lambda because I never heard in my system or a well know system.
About your subs that’s really good but is something that you love and sdie for: wood building where you have not only a high knowledge levels but full tools to do it so you are really enjoying your subs building. Again, good.
R.
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The extension of references to SS Phon's with fundamental design being Current Driven and Transimpidence, has encouraged myself to investigate a few Phon's demo'd in recent years that made a very good impression.
The Phon' demo'd aside numerous Phon's and the one I am a advocate of is now learned to be Transconductance as the fundamental design.
I now know by looking at a few models used at Bake Off's that there has been a Tranimpedance SS design present. That has not been able to produce a indelible impression.
The Phasemation EA350 has been another SS Phon' experienced as a Brand New model not too far back, that has been indelible for all the right reasons to my perceptions. This a different fundamental design to the above that are referred to.
The SS Design I listen to the most, and has now generated 50 Sales is my friends own design. For myself this is able to really impress, it has much of the presence of the Transconductance Desigbln and EA 350.
I intend on owning my friends design further down the line, but to feel the Transconductance Model will be best demo'd along side it in the home system.
The Sculpture A SUT will be an excellent device to have ready to experience in the home system for this same period of demo's
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@rauliruegas Of course all multi driver speakers do not perform the same, but they are multi driver speakers nonetheless and separate the audio band which is noticeable as you walk up the speaker. One of the cool things about full range ESLs is this does not happen. You can never tell that you are close to the speaker.
When visuals match what you are hearing, eyes open is no problem such as concert videos and small live venues. At large concerts, stadium concerts, the reverse happens. The audio is Mono. There is no audio match to the stage positions. Because Vision is our dominant sense this does not bother us as much as no visual to the audio. Listening to Herbie Hancock's Sextant with eyes closed or in a darkened room is an other worldly experience.
Because I can't listen to every cartridge out there I am not interested in the quality of performance of my system? So, the Atlas SL, MC Diamond and Hyperion MR are second rate cartridges? I spent a year building 4 extremely high performance subwoofers and I do not care about the performance of my system? Right.
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@bdp24 : I remember that way, I have years that I don't listen to those label recordings and this is time to do it.
The Label producers were very carefully in all the recording choices as microphones and its positions,recorder machine and kind of tape,all tube electronics, Shefield Labs team,pressingand the like.
Stereophile reviewed 1-2 of PR recordings.
R.
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Yeah @rauliruegas, James Boyk's Performance Recordings label LP's are mighty fine. I have 5 of them myself.
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@lewm : " What happened was I lost nearly all consciousness of or obsession with purely the sound quality. I was immersed in the experience as if it was happening in front of me. "
Spoton. Well in a little different way that's whatshould be happens only with the sound:IMMERSED in the experience ".
I don't need my eyes closed to achieve that but this is me.
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : " I do not have access to all those cartridges and never will. "
Well through this thread and other threads along that post it's clear for me that you are not looking the maximum room/system MUSIC accurated reproduction enjoyment ( what is in the recording, for good or bad. )
Yes, each one of us has different targets.
R.
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Dear @jdougs : Maybe you already know but with your Umami Redin " reality " you are listening to the over 15K Etsuro Gold where both cartridges shares the same cartridge motor and yes both are manufactured by Excel. The Etsuro is a Luxury Umami,so you are lucky.
Btw, if you can try to find out the vintage LOMC Excel ES-10 that came with around 0.2mvoutput and where the cartridge top plate is totally made of pure saphyre, very good quality performer.
R.
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As a fact I own 3 LPs from Boyk. I can' find out the other two but in one of them he played one of the Prokofiev Sonatas.
R.
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Dear @terry9 : I don’t know if you know that James Boyk is a very well regarded pianist too and made it Hall presentations several times with different scores.
I own one of his LP recordings where he plays: a Steinway with this program:
Debussy: Reflections in the Water.
Stravinsky: Sonata ( 1924 )
Shoenberg : Sis little Piano Pieces and
Ravel: Sonatina.
He has other LP recordings.
R.
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@mijostyn : " seriously evaluating a system I always close my eyes. "
Well that's the way you are accustom to, no problem and maybe when you are in the MUSIC Hall you are sleeping all the time with your eyes closed because in any concert hall not only there is ligth but air conditon noise too and several other issue. Again no problem with.
" a system as you begin to hear the individual drivers. "
Again no problem but you are wrong and not all multidiver speakers and room/system chain performs the same. What's happening with you?
R.
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It’s just an observation that I came to realize after 50 plus years of playing records using different turntables, arms, phone amps and cartridges. There’s no mechanism involved, just personal experience. Could it be wrong? Maybe…Addressing your other comment, “Good” is arbitrary and hard to define but…what ever you think it is…seems best.
@bsion A lot of phono sections designed for MM cartridges make ticks and pops all on their own due to poor high frequency overload problems. The cartridge has an inductance and that in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable sets up an electrical resonance (a peak like a tone control) that can be up to 20dB, at the upper end of the audio range or just ultrasonic. Keeping the tonearm cable capacitance down pushes this resonance to a higher frequency which is why tonearm cables are usually low capacitance.
There is noise (and sometimes signal, since any stereo cutter has response to well over 40KHz) and boosted in that manner can overload the input of the phono section briefly with a tick or pop as the result.
So you might want to reconsider that idea that the MM cartridges inherently pick up more surface noise- it might simply be you were playing a phono preamp that had this problem; IME this problem is very common. Many solid state MM phono sections in amps and receivers made in the 1970s and 80s had this issue.
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The Cartridge Topic, where Alll thing being equal is quite important for the determining where best qualities are to be found, and offered with a convincing description.
Has now been met with even more variables, as Dress Code, Lighting, Observation, Seating Position and Seat Material are all entered as factors by the OP.
@mijostyn has attempted to show he has the option to attempt to match the seating as a Wooden Bench is available to be used. A bench might be overkill if the OP is only familiar with a Chair type of seat.
The there is not only the exact positioning of seat in relation to speaker, there is also the posture adopted whilst seated. Legs stretched out to max length, Legs with Bent Knee, Cross Legged.
Maybe even foot size matters.
All things being equal, good luck with such an idea, it is bad enough trying to believe all TT's in use are the exact same in their level adjustment.
I'm struggling with much of what is on offer, as each are very very unique as reports, and I am left trying to conjecture the info to fill in blanks where info is deficient.
The latest parameter to be used as a means of unadulterated assessment is way out there.
I'll let the wider audience decide how rediculous this is to suggest as a requirement beyond the 1st of April.
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Somehow, two different discussions got twisted together, the questions of whether reproduced frequencies above the range of your or my hearing acuity have any effect on your or my perception of music vs whether one should listen with eyes open or closed. IMO, both questions are more interesting than the question of what type of cartridge Joe Blow of Audiogon Forums likes best. And yet this thread on that subject will go on forever; Raul is a genius at posing open-ended questions that provoke opinions for the sake of having an opinion.
On the first new question, Raul and the published scientific papers he quotes are undeniably correct. The fact that our sense of SQ is affected by reproduction of frequencies we cannot "hear" by the criterion of audiometry has been shown many times. This could be due in part to bone conduction or whatever, but it's a fact that I not only accept but am grateful for, since I am old and subject to age-related hf hearing loss. In his white paper on designing preamplifiers, Allen Wright even claimed that he or his listeners could detect a difference in treble response between a circuit that went out to 1 MHz vs a different version that went out to 750KHz, when he experimented with two different configurations of the same preamplifier driving the same downstream system. (That seems a little extreme, even to me.)
On the second new question, I am not sure what is the issue. No one seems to be saying that eyes open vs eyes closed makes no difference. For sure, it makes a big difference to me in perception of soundstage and location of instruments and distortions produced by the venue or the PA system in any live venue. I experienced this as recently as the last few days when we attended two different live performances, one in a local jazz club and one in a small concert hall which has very good acoustics. At any live venue, I always listen both ways, eyes open vs eyes closed, just to amuse myself but also to get an idea how what I am seeing and listening to might sound if I could only hear it on a home system. My late audiophile friend had an extensive library of DVDs containing live jazz performances. He had a huge flat screen TV flanked by high end Martin Logan ESLs and driven by quality amplification. I spent many hours listening with him while we watched the actual performance on the screen. What happened was I lost nearly all consciousness of or obsession with purely the sound quality. I was immersed in the experience as if it was happening in front of me.
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I can sit on a wooden bench and listen to music.
Here again I am going to disagree with Raul. Nobody in the store though the Denon sounded better than the Koetsu. Perhaps this was an example of groupthink. The cartridge did not last very long, perhaps more listening would have changed some opinions.
I suggest @rauliruegas you review oculomotor neuroanatomy and physiology. Our eyes and ears talk to each other, anyone who has experienced vertigo knows this. When the ear gives the brain false spatial information the eyes start bouncing horizontally and the person feels as if the room is spinning. Closing the eyes improves the situation although it does not get rid of it. Visual cues distort the image. Some animals like whales are ruled by their ears. We are ruled by our eyes. Taking the eyes out of the equation by closing them or turning off the lights improves audio image definition. The effect is purely on the image not the amplitude response. I suggest everyone try it. When seriously evaluating a system I always close my eyes. When listening from the listening chair I will always have my eyes closed unless the music is coming from a video.
Nearfield listening to multiway speakers is not a good way to evaluate a system as you begin to hear the individual drivers. You can do this with headphones and full range drivers but not multiway speakers. By nearfield I mean closer than 3 feet.
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I never thought I would be associating something, that could be described as almost Monty Python'esc, in relation to how to separate oneself from the usual, to enforce ones place as being the authority.
As an individual who does not like to suggest too much, without having a experience of such a subject that can offer some value, and one who promotes the idea, to avoid being participant in the following :
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
To align myself, at some time in the future, I will be in my listening room, with Chalk Painted Decor, Wood and Wool Rug Floor Covering, with Soft Furnishings produced from Wool and Organically Grown Plants produced into Fabric.
Where I will be seated in a free space position, whilst seated on my Cottage Industry - Bodger Produced Chair, wearing Clothing that comes from Organically Grown Flax, that is using only Traditional Practices to create the Linen Cloth my Clothing will be produced from. I will compare the wearing of Such Fabric to the experience of Naturist Listening and share thoughts on which is the able to create the most attractive end sound.
To keep my report on any findings effecting the end sound produced as accurate possible. I will train myself to not Blink, or maybe cheat and use Matchsticks. It will be a worthwhile investigation to learn how the shutting of ones eyes whilst listening, can be extremely detrimental to how the end produced sound is perceived.
Maybe somebody can contribute to assist with my selections that will enable my using an Audio System, that is 100% Produced from Natural Product. It seems vital such a condition is put in place to not be detrimental to the end sound being produced.
Ah forget offering any suggestions, I'm out of here, the whole idea, is seemingly to myself, a waste of my time.
The Chalk Wall Decor, and Wood/Rug Flooring has proved plenty enough, with CD being quite acceptable if one feels a snooze is on the menu.
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Thanks for the Boyk reference.
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Oh no Raul, a new subject to argue over debate. Should we listen with our eyes closed or open?
;^)
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Dear @terry9 @mijostyn and friends:It's obvious that not only the " color " on each cartridge changes but mainly the " color " where the other named characteristics change too but in different way and in way lower gradation.
Now, my audio/sound/MUSIC experiences through over 40+ years gave me a lot of lessons on how a human being " hears and listen and in my case this is what I do when listening at my place and what I learned it happening:
first I like to listen MUSIC/recordings at nigth when the street noise floor is lower as is my building noise floor.
I never wear any kind of clothe not made it by natural fabric as cotton, wool, silk and the like.
I don't listen with the room/system ligth off but not very shiny and I never listen with my eyes closed. Yes, my seat position is near field and when I want to listen something seriously by seat is a wood chair with my head totally free of any near boundary because my normal seat is a confortable couch that absorb the sound from speakers what is not a good idea.
"
There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz
James Boyk
California Institute of Technology
Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA
Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu
Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab
Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved.
Abstract
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At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz. In these particular examples, the proportion of energy above 20 kHz is, for the muted trumpet, 2 percent; violin, 0.04 percent; oboe, 0.01 percent; and cymbals, 40 percent. Instruments surveyed are trumpet with Harmon ("wah-wah") and straight mutes; French horn muted, unmuted and bell up; violin sul ponticello and double-stopped; oboe; claves; triangle; a drum rimshot; crash cymbals; piano; jangling keys; and sibilant speech. A discussion of the significance of these results describes others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound; and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer.
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.
From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published.
In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6]
Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.
On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed. "
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Now, human being " hears " not only with the ears but with his whole body along all his different senses and all the concious information stocked in his brain Amygdala but down there the majority of the Amygdala information we are not concious but has direct influence in all what our body does or reacts. Even our brain with all its resources and it does not matters that mijos can listen to 16khz the brain and senses synthetize over 50khz even if the speakers can's do it.
We are 24 hours alive and everything counts that's why I don't listen with my eyes closed because when I close my eyes immediatly I " look " different " figures/scenarios/ideas " etc etc.
The sense of vew is way important when we are listen at home as is to choose a time to listen when our nervous system is more or less in equilibrium because if we are under high distress or something to worry our senses are afected directly and the rhythm of what we are listening changes that when we are listening in equilibrium.
It's really complex what happens around/surround us and normally we don't take care about. I care on all the listening experience at a live event or in a room/system.
As all of you I listen my system to live each time the developing of the MUSIC enjoyment, I'm a MUSIC lover not a hardware lover.
R.
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@mijostyn : My mistake because I owned the DL 1000A and was and is way way better than any Koetsu of those times and I know becase I owned almost all Koetsu cartridges of those times.
Even today the DL 1000A is a great performer and one of the favorities of your Lambda designer and you can ask him.
That the speaker can not reproduce is not the issue.
R.
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here is one thing I have become absolutely sure about during my years of expressing an interest in Vinyl Replay is that a Cartridge is required to achieve this.
With that Bombshell Dropped, I can now reveal I have collected a Cart' +One, Two, Three over the years.
I can also reveal these Cart's do not share the same design and the bulk of the collection is in storage.
I myself have many spare Headshells, in the same material and very close in weight or the same in their weights.
I have opted for the experiencing the Cart' of choice, and have not shown an interest in Pre Mounting Headshells for easy change outs.
One Cart' at a time is all that is able to be listened to and I stick with this as the methodology.
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@rauliruegas Perfect for you, but then that is all that counts.
The difference between 50 kHz and 100 kHz is one octave, an octave not a single one of us can hear, not to mention most loudspeakers can not reproduce. The Koetsu of the day sounded better to my ear than the DL1000. After about a week in the store the DL1000 failed internally. Shortly thereafter Denon released the DL1000A. It also had a ridiculously low output.
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