Luxman 590AX II Break-In

@jeffreyw

I highly doubt this issue is amplifier/ speaker synergy. It sounds like you want to get serious about solving it, so why not at least rule out room bass mode/null by performing a frequency sweep at your listening position with the gear you have?

free software and pretty easy to do - just need a good calibrated mic. This can save you years on the merry go round. But if your heart is set on swapping gear out ,have at it.

@jeffreyw

Does your wife like the way the system sounds now?    Does she love music? Does she listen critically? I'm asking with utmost respect.

My wife has phenomenal hearing but she never sits down in front of our hifi system to listen critically or casually for enjoyment.  Our home has an open floor plan and music is in the background for her. I play almost every genre except metal, rap, and pounding electronica- mostly classical, both light and heavy, jazz, folk, other acoustic, world, etc.

She danced professionally for many years and has heard a lot of live music.  I will often solicit her opinion when I change something, whether it be amplification or even cables.  My wife doesn't care about the usual audiophile stuff- "sound stage, imaging, second or whatever order  harmonics," and so on and so forth, but she is very aware of the overall SOUND of the music. Is it warm, is it smooth or is it harsh and strident-is it pleasing to the ear- does it sound somewhat "real"- is it non-fatiguing?  All relative and subjective, I know, but for me her comments are valid and useful.

I took a look at your Kefs and agree that they are quite attractive, but these days there are a lot of other speakers with great visual appeal. 

Anyway, I'm following this thread and will be interested in learning how you resolve the issue.

When I was choosing a new integrated, I finally resolved my choice down to the L-590AXII or L-509X. I chose to go with the L-509X, but am sure I would have been happy with the 590A. 

Anyhow, I noted the speakers reviewed with the amps, and the WhatHiFi L-509X reviewer used the ATC SCM 50 and the KEF Reference 1. There was no mention of the issue you are having.  https://www.whathifi.com/luxman/l-509x/review

This Audiodrom review compared both amps and only noted some slight difference between them. http://www.audiodrom.net/en/integrated-amplifiers/detail/31-integrated-amplifiers/574-luxman-l-509x

Advice given previously about your room, may be the most correct, and I fear you could start riding a roller coaster if you change amps. Have you considered a subwoofer? The KEF Ref 1’s are great speakers but can’t be expected to deliver great bass without significant help from the room. 

Good luck!

@jeffreyw

Many here have suggested the problem is room/speaker interface. It’s entirely possible or maybe even likely in your situation.

As an example, Some years ago, I had a pair of Chapman T7 3-way floor-standers, which sounded wonderful in a large living room. When we redesigned the interior, I moved the stereo system to a smaller, but dedicated listening room, I could never get the Chapmans to sound good. Bass went from terrific to awful. It had nothing to do with the amps- I was using either powerful tube monos and tube pre- and a very sweet 150 WPC SS integrated at the time.

I should also say that while the dimensions of the room itself are small, since the rear wall and most of the side wall open to adjacent much bigger rooms, the listening room is in effect, bigger. I fortunately don't get "boomy" bass.

Now, as I said in an earlier post, the Luxman 550AXII works a treat with my SF monitors with or without a single, small sub, but always with the thick front corner bass traps. On some music, I’ll turn the sub off.

Keep us posted.

It sounds to me like maybe the Kef is too small for your largish room. @jeffreyw  Bring your Luxman with you to the dealer to hear it paired with "your" speakers in an optimized room. @erik_squires The Reference 1 actually has a 6.5" bass driver it's the concentric mid that's 5".

Similar set up to you. I have a 30W Class A amp (DIY Hiraga Super 30 W), which is driving a pair of Seas Coax book shelf speakers. (DIY Sealed 5Ltr enclosure using the C16N001/F driver - Seas recommended enclosure and crossover) Room is 12,x18’ approx. I’m having no shortage of bass with this small box. Low watt class an amp, small coax driver. With those 3 way speakers, you should get a better bass response than what I’m seeing. 
 

Have you tried running a 50hz tone sine wave through your set up? You may want to try doing that (can be streamed from YouTube) and walking around in the room. Bass nodes will become very apparent and might help in getting the speakers properly positioned in the room.

just a thought…

@jeffreyw ,

I have the big brother to your Reference One’s and they need to be at least 2’ from the front wall and 3’-4’ from the side walls.  I’m not sure how loud you play your tunes, but mine don’t come alive until 60+ dbs.

All the best.

PROBLEM SOLVED

I visited a dealer who sells KEF and Luxman. Brought my 590AXII for comparison against the 509X, M10X, and Rotel Michi stereo amp. The room size in the showroom was 1.25X larger than mine and treated. We experienced a similar lack of bass in the showroom as in my home. The Kef Reference 1 Metas are power pigs. Moving up to the 509X was a little better in the bass response. When hooked up to the M10x, the KEFs became a different animal. The bass was crazy good! This is what my dealer expected. The Michi was also powerful in the bass region but nowhere as refined as the M10x. The best pairing was the M10x. I can't speak highly enough of what this amp (M10X) can do. As beautiful as the Class A midrange of the 590AXII is, it is easily trumped by the M10X, as it should be for the price differential. 

Thanks to all who offered advice on how to help me solve my issues! 

The m900u (and I am sure the M10X) has way more current than the 509x. I had the same observation when I heard those 2 with Harbeth (I was looking to buy KEF Reference 1). Dealer told me it is the power supply in the m900u that is the making that huge difference. I would look at buying a used m900u at $9K or less over the M10X. Your Reference 1 will sing with the m900u at a much lower cost and likely sound the same with the Reference 1.

I was discussing the Michi and Luxman M10X with someone who owned 2 Michi’s and the new Luxman integrated. His observations mirrored yours, I crossed the Michi off my list for my KEF Blade 2 Meta. I am now down to KRELL XD (3 models) and CODA #16 for the KEF. I dropped the Luxman M10X because it may not have enough current compared to the KRELL and CODA. I know it is not better sounding than the 2 under consideration. Just slight variances in sound.

@jeffreyw

Are you buying the more powerful amp and if so, what will you do for a preamp?

Glad you’ve now heard sufficient bass through those KEF’s. May you be able to hear that bass at home. :)

OP,

So it sounds like problem identified. What did you decide to do?

I wish I had found this page before at ASR. Through most of the musical bass range these speakers remain under 3 Ohms. Remarkably low impedance for a broad range, while the speakers I use only touch 4 Ohms. Great that a bigger amplifier solves the problem but man, I’d switch speakers first.  I think while the speakers can sound good with a big amp, it would have to be a remarkable speaker to make me accept these kind of demands.

PS - I had seen the specs at KEF, and if ASR is correct (and it makes sense it is) the KEF specs are absolute bs.

Also, the KEF specs looked normal-ish. A lot of 2 way speakers go down to 3 Ohms but only for a little bit, so I didnt question them further. These speakers are just way worse than my experience or the specifications suggest.  They are practically 2 Ohm speakers.

Now I know why a 509/590 wouldn’t work. Buddy, have you heard Fritz?? 😂

@erik_squires

OP alluded to his WAF regarding the KEFs. I believe Mrs. OP very much likes the way the speakers look. A big plus for Mr. OP. :)

This is an interesting thread. I’m tuned in until OP reveals the resolve.  

@ps 

Still trying to decide my next move. The speakers have to stay. Still unsure what direction to head with amp/preamp or more powerful integrated (maybe Gryphon Diablo 300). I love the M10x, but it is very pricey. It would sound glorious with a Luxman tube preamp, though!!

@jeffreyw 

Thanks very much for the update.  As I said, I find your thread quite interesting and informative as well.  Since I have a fair amount of experience with Sonus Faber monitors, and because they not only generally sound good, they generally have great eye appeal.  Perhaps your better half might be amenable to at least looking at them.  Your 590 would likely work very well.  

Full-disclosure; My Lux 550 AXII is powering my circa 2004 SF Guarneri Homage and I think the synergy is excellent.  Some "experts" have insisted that I need more juice on tap.  Maybe, maybe not.   I can listen for hours without fatigue or losing interest. I have a pair of REL T5x but they are not always plugged in unless I want to rock the Casbah..  But, stating the obvious- our hobby is so personal and subjective  that only you and your wife will really know what works for you.

After many years of audiophilia, one thing I've learned is that tossing a lot of coinage at real or perceived deficiencies is not always productive nor prudent.

This wind bag now rests his case. :)

I can listen for hours without fatigue or losing interest.

That is all that matters.

Well, one thing for sure. I'm really glad we found the culprit and the impedance curve.  I was starting to wonder if my speakers were actually severely underpowered.  The difference in mine and the OP's makes me feel a lot less like goiing out to spend $20k on a new amp. 😂

why is this surprisingref ones are too small for that space you need a subwoofer

Dave and Troy

Sudio intellect nj

kef reference dealer

EQUIPMENT UPDATE

I want to update the members who were interested in what I chose for equipment. I have traded in the Luxman for a pair of McIntosh MC 611 monoblocks and a C2700 tube preamp. During my day of extensive auditioning, I found the McIntosh sound best to my liking. I love tubes and their warmth; the McIntosh sound was the closest to an all-tube system, with the benefit of having a portable "nuclear powerplant" driving the speakers. 

I immensely enjoyed the Luxman M10X, which was slightly less warm but more analytical (in a very good way) than the Mac. The Gryphon Diablo 300 was also a stunner! But after careful reflection, my heart kept coming back to the McIntosh sound. To my ears, warmth outweighs a more analytical presentation. I will give an update as to the performance in my room when I receive the components. It should take at least eight weeks for delivery. Now I must jump down the "rabbit hole" in selecting power cords for the monoblocks! 

I like to thank all for their help in trying to figure out my bass issues. BTW, I plan on hitting the MegaMillions on Tuesday night and will add the Luxman and Gryphon to my stable! 😉

You’re shooting a fly with a bazooka. But, congratulations on your upgrade!

OP’s solution is likely more economical than building a new home with a properly designed, dedicated listening room, as tempting as that option might be.

@jeffreyw congratulations!! Your electronics are what many would consider to be endgame. The Mac monoblocks are amazing and get so much for respect for a reason. You now have the foundation to move up to bigger and much more expensive speakers should you choose to. Of course, Kef Reference 1 is no slouch either. Happy listening and please update us when you get your amps.

@arafiq 

Thank you! I aim to move to larger speakers when I move into a permanent residence. The Mac is the end game for me. The next project will be power cords, interconnect, and speaker cables. 

OP, Congradulations!

You have made a big step forward. It sounds like you did your research and found the sound that matches your aesthetic. And, I am pretty sure, lack of bass is not an issue. To my surprise I found the most recent Luxman lacking in punch and warmth as well. Enjoy… but I am sure you are.

Nice to see some love for McIntosh.  Congrats!

Have to agree on room acoustics, try hanging thick blankets on the walls and bring as many cushions you can find in the room and try leaning them against the walls at different heights. One day while the wife was out I set the room up with all this temporary treatments. I couldn’t believe the difference. Needless to say I bought 6 24x48 x 1inch panels at $100 a pop. Best $600 I’ve spent on my system yet. 
Costs nothing to experiment. Good Luck. 😎

System update

The Luxman is gone. The McIntosh C2700/MC 611s sound glorious with the KEFs. The bass is easily 300% better. I could probably convince some that I am using a sub. 

The moral of this story is that room acoustics had nothing to do with the bass. It was the inability of the Luxman to drive the power-hungry KEFs. This fact was verified at a dealer also. I also tried the 509X at the dealer into the KEFs, there was a slight improvement, but neither of the integrateds had enough juice to drive them properly. Only the M10X could. The dealer also agreed.

The NEW model Luxman amps should be on their way soon! Most of their current models on their website are showing END OF LIFE!

The Luxman is gone. The McIntosh C2700/MC 611s sound glorious with the KEFs. The bass is easily 300% better. I could probably convince some that I am using a sub.

The moral of this story is that room acoustics had nothing to do with the bass. It was the inability of the Luxman to drive the power-hungry KEFs. This fact was verified at a dealer also. I also tried the 509X at the dealer into the KEFs, there was a slight improvement, but neither of the integrateds had enough juice to drive them properly. Only the M10X could. The dealer also agreed.

Good to know. I checked on the McIntosh MC 611 monoblocks. There isn’t much surprise your power hungry KEFs sounded a lot better with these monoblocks. The Luxman is after all an integrated amp, a modest one and not something like the monster Vitus integrateds that weigh a tonne.

McIntosh MC611

• Power Output per Channel

  600 Watts @ 2, 4 or 8 Ohms

• Unit Weight

  97.5 lbs (44.32 kg)

The capability of providing 600W into 2 ohms is surely something. One unit of these MC611s is close to 100 lbs, A pair would be close to 200 lbs. They surely look business!

Congratulations! It is great when you make a move that results in what you desire. McIntosh is known to be very midrange and bass heavy… sounds like the solution to your dilemma. 
 

On the other hand, in some other systems room treatments could be the solution.

@ghdprentice 

+1

My "wheelhouse" in music is bass/midbass and a warmer midrange. I have auditioned many amps/integrateds and I have not heard an amp that betters the MC611s in the bass/midbass range. The closest I heard was the Gryphon Diablo 300. I think the big MACs have it beat, though.

As far as highs, McIntosh is a little "light" on the top end. I fixed that problem by pairing my source DAC into the C2700 with Nordost Valhalla 2s. That cable has completely transformed the sound of the system. 

OP,

Outstanding. I have auditioned some of the top level Nordost… Odin 2… incredible wires. 
 

Greatto hear you are happy.

Break in is probably 200hrs, but the speakers you have arent the greatest match and also the 590 doesnt give great bass if your looking for that pop. Its a refined neutral amp that pairs well with easy to drive speakers.  I am using Silverline Sonata II and it sounds sweet.  The 590 pairs best with silk/soft dome tweeters.

I just picked up a Luxman 590AXII and moved out a McIntosh MA6600, with my 85db Harbeth 30.1 speakers the Luxman delivers as much or at times more bass then the McIntosh ever did. I see the Keff’s are 85db as well, goes to show specs aren’t always exact. My understanding is every db in the 85 range takes considerable more power, maybe the Keff is closer to 83-84 which needs that extra 100 watts. Great feeling when you get the problem solved and can pass on your experience to others. Great thread guys. 😎

Does anyone know if a 220v can covert to 120v on a L-590axii? I’m about to pick one up from asia. Pls help

I don’t think the Luxman 590ax is powerful enough to drive those speakers. I know. I have the amp and I’ve tried to drive similar harder to drive speakers. 

Blue thinker: not sure if you’ve referring to the Harbeth’s or the Kef’s but the Luxman has no problem with my Harbeth’s. My room size is 15’x 30’ as well. 
My previous amp was a 200 watt McIntosh that certainly had more slam but volume wise there isn’t that much of a difference. They say the Luxman switches to A/B and puts out up to 80-90 watts, based on my experience I believe it, this isn’t delivering only 20-30% of what my McIntosh did. I think Kef specs are off.