Just got mine last week. After 24 hours of play all I can say is that this is not your father's class D amplifier. There is not one thing about its sound that reminds me of the class D gremlins that I do not like. The low end filled in and now has deep impact, the midrange is the love child of a beautiful tube and clean hybrid amp - just gorgeous. Highs are very clean and extended. Spatial cues are top notch. My system has had some damn good tube and solid state amps in it before and it has never sounded this good. I am blown away with the quality of sound coming from class D amplification at this price point.
Having owned both tube and SS, the thing I recall about tubes is they are more holographic, lighting the music from within. As Ive mentioned, my room is volumetrically large, so for me to get a proper spl I need big tube amps which, unfortunately in S FL are heaters, as are large AB & class A amps (I loved my Kinergetics KBA 75 which (as I recall) was 75 w pure class A.
Among the many things I'm enjoying with the Voyager over the EVS 1200 is, it can be eerily holographic, when the recording is. I never heard that with the EVS 1200, though I very much enjoyed the amp, at least until the V arrived
It's obviously not possible for everyone to know everything about every amplifier out there.
You may note in the attached article (from 2017) that Tommy Obrien (Digital Amplifier Company) talks about building his class d amplifiers with discrete parts, not modules, minimal feeback...and Our Cherry Amplifiers use both clocked and "continuous time" digital circuits with a variable switching frequency (up to 2 MHz), allowing audio bandwidth over 100kHz.
Our Cherry Amplifiers use both clocked and "continuous time" digital
circuits with a variable switching frequency (up to 2 MHz), allowing
audio bandwidth over 100kHz.
If you're avoiding feedback you'll need that sort of bandwidth to prevent significant phase shift.
If you’re avoiding feedback you’ll need that sort of bandwidth to prevent significant phase shift.
Like Class-D have with switching frequencies at 600-800khz, like this Icepower has https://ibb.co/5Kj0rcP that has significant feedback, and still has rubbish phase shift measurements(red trace).
Our Cherry Amplifiers with a variable switching frequency (up to 2 MHz), allowing audio bandwidth over 100kHz.
If that is correct, this is what Technics did (with SE-R1) fixed 1.5mhz switching frequency/output-filter to move the phase shift up and out of the audio band in the above graph. And why you can get to 100khz bandwidth without too much roll off (phase shift).
I really like my CODA 07x preamp but it does not sound like "straight wire with gain" which I think most would appreciate. However, for me I was missing that "straight wire..." on some recordings so I ordered the Benchmark LA4 preamp to add to my office.
I will test the modded Voyager with both preamps but likely focus on the LA4 which will let me hear the Voyager and sources without the preamp adding anything.
Atmasphere, I have huge respect for your technical expertise, but sorry, if you are not a violinist or any other trained classical instrumentalist you may not realize that close exposure to real instruments teaches that these natural sounds are BRIGHT (in the good natural sense, not for example in the artificial types of distortion that is obvious if you tune the radio slightly off its freq and get the static which brightens the sound). The microphones in most recordings are close, roughly comparable to the 1st row of the hall, so when most people who sit much further away say that their 10th row sound is comparable to the recording played on their systems, they don't realize that this means their systems are rolled off in HF especially. These listeners would be astonished to go to the 1st row, or better yet, stand on the podium to hear what the conductor hears, which is the most detailed and balanced sound of anyone in the hall. This sound is bright and brilliant, not at all like the sound of most tube equipment. I have an open mind to discover some tube electronics that are brilliant and detailed. On Jay's thread, "My long list of amplifiers..." he plays his new tube mono amps the identity of which he hasn't disclosed yet. They sound brilliant and bright, and he says they are more detailed than many SS amps he has owned.
My 60 years of playing the violin, the latter 50 as an accomplished performer in solo concertos, chamber music, orchestra, and 50 years of being an audiophile and correlating audio system sound with live in all sorts of venues and environments, qualifies me to make the statements in the preceding paragraph.
Tube gear can sound bright and brilliant or dull and warm. Cannot paint the sound of all tube gear with a broad brush as you have. Ralph’s tube gear does not sound like you think in your mind. Unless you have owned his amps? I have owned his pieces. They are brilliant and as lite up from within as the recording may or may not deliver. Also, you hear your very own violin differently than other humans. Some hear different tonality in your violin playing as this is part of being human and unique. So you are not hearing it more correctly than another. When we better understand the subjective part of our individual ear/brain differences and preferences, then perhaps we will stop taking sides and keeping score.
I am starting to learn this after 40 years of being an Aphile and music lover.
I could not even stay in the same room that Benchmark gear was powering. My ears and preferences drove me out while others were completely and utterly immersed in the music.
Perhaps it would improve the signal to noise ratio if those with commercial interests in their recommendations either mention such in their posts or not be allowed to post in non-commercial forums.
I have huge respect for your technical expertise, but sorry, if you are
not a violinist or any other trained classical instrumentalist you may
not realize that close exposure to real instruments teaches that these
natural sounds are BRIGHT (in the good natural sense, not for example in
the artificial types of distortion that is obvious if you tune the
radio slightly off its freq and get the static which brightens the
sound).
@viber6 I agree! I've been playing instruments since I was three years old (piano); started harpsichord when I was in 6th grade. I picked up string bass in 7th grade and played in orchestras and ensembles well after college. These days I'm in a rock band playing keyboards again only now they are synths and a Mellotron. But I also play flute and have 2 albums of that; used to regularly play out until the pandemic.
The brightness I'm referring to isn't the correct natural brightness of instruments; its caused by higher ordered harmonic distortion generated by all electronics. Your radio tuning example is a great way to illustrate how this works. The ear interprets all harmonic information as a tonality (this is how we can tell the difference between wound and gut strings for example). Traditional solid state amps and tube amps with feedback sound bright because the distortion I'm referring to isn't masked, so the ear interprets it as brightness- quite independently of the instruments being portrayed in the recording being played back. This is why two amps can measure perfectly flat on the test bench but one will be bright while the other is not. Put another way, this kind of brightness is not a frequency response error.
I suspect the words "bright and brilliant" can easily be equated to harsh and sibilant....so I think it would be worthwhile for those of you that actually play instruments to spill a little more ink explaining what you mean.
When I hear unamplified instruments being played up close (I don't play), I think of what I'm hearing in terms of present, dynamic and powerful...and almost always at a level that I've never heard on a home audio system.
“The LSA amp is so good, I can’t wait to get it modded”. That tells me it isn’t that good because if it was, why void your warranty to make it better? I would never mod anything. If I got the itch, I would buy something better and I certainly wouldn’t mod a brand new piece of equipment. I will stick with my big and heavy Mac amp, it sounds great and have no desire to ever mod it.
@stereo5 I modded my LSA Voyager because of my experience with the SONY SCD-1. There are a lot of reviews on the Vaccum State mods that I also did on the SONY. The SONY had great bones, a 60 pound SACD player with SONY's best efforts 20 years ago. It cost $5K then but likely $10K-$20K for a smaller company to do the same level of work. In short the mods transformed the unit from great (lot of reviews on this unmodded player) to one that I will never sell, a masterpiece. Even today it is still one of my best digital sources. It is much better than stock and actually some stock features are removed or disabled.
Since you guys are all talking about musicians I will add that a musician who recently heard my SONY wanted to buy it. He could not believe how good it was with SACD's. He owns a lot of DACs and other gear.
So mods are not something I will dismiss because you can buy something better for more money.
I am not dismissing mods but if the item is so great, why does it need to be modded, especially during the warranty period? I had the SCD777ES which was the same as the SCD1 without the balanced output and potted transformer @$3500.00. It’s now a boat anchor and could never compete with my Esoteric X3 SACD player.
Mods to digital vs. mods to something like an amp or preamp are a bit different. Years back back I had a tube mod to a Sony XA-777ES. I still have a solid state modded Oppo BDP-83 (which is just there if someone brings a disc over as I'm not into disc playback at this point). Other than minor mods, I can't ever foresee getting either a digital or video thing modded again. For one thing, the draw mechanism and transport is usually only manufactured for a limited period. Once that passes, the manufacturer is not going to retrofit new parts in and write new software for it. As far as not modding during the warranty period, that is a safe practice to follow.
I am not dismissing mods but if the item is so great, why does it need to be modded, especially during the warranty period?
+1 Very bazar behaviour, and if done, hopefully not by some who takes one look at just a picture of it, (no bench measurement/scope tests) and says he can see quite a few modds to take it to another level, without any explanation of what mods can be done take it to that next level.
The desire to mod excellent sounding equipment is eminently understandable. Audiophiles are ALWAYS chasing better sound no matter how good it is. So if iequipment sounds really good or better, the desire to mod it is understandable. I have rarely modded bad sounding equipment, at least not recently. I mod really good sounding stuff. I doubt if I am alone in this position but I also know that I do not speak for all audiophiles.
Jaymark, you are definitely not alone. Very well put.
Pursuit of the next level up among the enthused is not exclusive to audio, IME. My Dad shot competitive skeet and had a bass boat capable of over 70mph. Constantly tweaking everything…
Not specifically arguing the merits of EVS’ Voyager amp mod, because it’s not been delivered yet, but I thought the validity of modding equipment was well-established. Haven’t there been quite a few well known modders over the decades with many many happy customers? And many less well-known modders also with tons of happy customers?
I’ve had two pieces modded by the same person. I only did the second one because the first was so good. Anytime I can identify talented modders, I’m open to doing more. But only if I really like the SQ of the piece to begin with.
As far as choosing between modding a piece or replacing it with a new one, I am comfortable with my ability to assess those alternatives and also in determining if I got good value for my modding dollar. Those perplexed by those of us who like mods might ponder that a bit. It’s not that complicated. If a mod falls flat, so be it. The marketplace will take care of that….
I am not dismissing mods but if the item is so great, why does it need to be modded, especially during the warranty period? I had the SCD777ES which was the same as the SCD1 without the balanced output and potted transformer @$3500.00. It’s now a boat anchor and could never compete with my Esoteric X3 SACD player.
The mods I had eliminated the RCA section of the SCD-1. The balanced part was the best part of the unit and that was made way better with the mods. The RCA only SCD77ES was not at the level of the stock SCD-1.
************************************** I spoke to Ric today about the mods on the Voyager. His listening sessions with my stock Voyager yielded similar observations as me. He says the improvements he made will be easy for me to hear. They also sound like what I was hoping would improve.
I am looking for more clarity and detail. A bit quieter would be nice, but the new LA4 preamp I am getting may solve that issue. More musical engagement or the wow factor would be the best improvement. I have that with the CODA #8 on my Thiel CS3.7 and the KRELL K-300i on my RAAL SR1a. So the modded Voyager has a high bar to clear.
I should get the amp back next week once a final part is delivered to Ric.
He says the improvements he made will be easy for me to hear. They also sound like what I was hoping would improve.
I
am looking for more clarity and detail. A bit quieter would be nice,
but the new LA4 preamp I am getting may solve that issue. More musical
engagement or the wow factor would be the best improvement.
Clarity and detail improvements would require reductions in distortion. The distortion of this amp is probably already below the threshold of audibility. Anything he does is likely to decrease performance. Does he have ability to measure before and after to provide any sort of proof that he has actually improved the performance of the amp? Let me answer: No. It will just be his subjective opinion.
More musical engagement and wow factor? How to do quantify these? You can't. It's subjective. He will monkey around with the amp and add noise to it. You can use software to add effects and tune it to your own specific likes easier, cheaper, and with much more control.
I have had plenty of kit moded over the decades, mostly to the power supplies, internal wiring, or bypass caps. Simple DIY mod is upgrading fuses, which can be a much bigger sonic benefit than many are willing to admit, or now coating the connections with Goop
The stock Voyager sounds really good after I replaced the leading edge muffling stock rubber feet and got better still as I replaced all my 5+ yo machina dynamica springs with these. Outstanding improvement
The stock Voyager sounds really good after I replaced the leading edge
muffling stock rubber feet and got better still as I replaced all my 5+
yo machina dynamica springs with these. Outstanding improvement
The mind is indeed a miraculous thing....
What frequency and amplitude vibrations are you trying to damp? What was the spring rate of your old springs versus the new ones? Are they even different? What is the old versus the new damping ratio? Have you checked to see if it is different or for that matter an improvement? How do you know the damping hasn't worsened?
This is why these "tweaks" are nonsense. It's all in your head until you have some objective basis to actually show a change based on reality.
I hear if you smear peanut butter all over your amp it will sound chunkier.
@kuribo You are making conclusions about something you have not heard. So you really do not know anything about this specific amp or mods.
When I say wow factor I do have a subjective baseline. It is my CODA #8 amp. I preferred it to the stock Voyager. It is very easy for me to do comparisons of these 2 amps using ROON streaming, an apples-to-apples comparison. If I did not have the CODA as comparison I would likely have been happy with the stock Voyager.
The Voyager has a bit more detail and clarity over the CODA #8 but I still found the CODA to forcing me to stop and listen. For example, I do remember saying to myself wow I never knew that Jimi Hendrix song was this good, etc.. when played with the CODA (along with a lot more music). I have had this type of reaction with my AHB2's but not when paired with my Thiel CS3.7 floorstanders. The CODA and AHB2 do not sound anything alike.
The king of detail and clarity in my systems is the Benchmark AHB2. So I have another subjective benchmark (lowercase b). The stock Voyager does not reach the levels of the AHB2 on those attributes. Now if after the mods the more powerful Voyager reaches the levels of clarity and detail of my AHB2's. I will have a considerably useful amp for my difficult to drive speakers. Again this "difficult to drive" is a subjective opinion since I am not measuring anything, just listening.
BTW - I am expecting the modded Voyager to not sound like the CODA #8 more like the AHB2. However, that is just a guess.
Like Class-D have with switching frequencies at 600-800khz, like this Icepower has https://ibb.co/5Kj0rcP that has significant feedback, and still has rubbish phase shift measurements(red trace).
I agree. In order to allow the amp to correct phase shift, the feedback has to be more than about 35dB. You either run at least that much or none at all, IMO.
If an end user (owner) ever gets the chance to hear the stock Voyager or any of the new GAN amps next to a modded one, hope they report their observations here…
The stars would have to align just so, but I envision perhaps two audio friends who each have the amp—one modded, the other stock.
@kuribo You
are making conclusions about something you have not heard. So you
really do not know anything about this specific amp or mods.
I am commenting on your methodology- I don't have to hear anything to know that your conclusions aren't based on anything factual, just your own opinions. That's fine for you but it really has no value to anyone other than yourself unless you back it up with evidence.
Funny the Benchmark is the one with the most clarity. It is also the one with the lowest distortion. Imagine that!
As soon as the words mods or such get thrown around then the objectivists have to come in and tell us subjectivists that it is all nonsense. The trouble is......90% or more of people reading this thread are subjectivists.......they believe you can hear differences and that these differences are fairly universal......another words....10 people in the same room will usually hear the same thing.
10% of people sitting in a church do not believe what is being said there (you know, they "have" to be there). Those 10% at least have enough common sense to keep their "opinion" to themselves. On a public forum.....no such decorum!.....he he....a rhyme.. You just say your opinion over and over and over again.......well, because, "it needs to be said, it is the truth....and I am saving the world....and....I am smarter than you"
90% of people here believe it is a FACT that all audio gear sounds different and that there are practically NO measurements that tell us what sounds best. It is mostly ART......everyone has an opinion and they are all valid.....for them......but again....most hear the same thing and like the same thing when all are in attendance together (not at a trade show where the level of consciousness is so varied). I am talking small gatherings of people who ALREADY believe in differences and TRUST their ears. I have attended lots of these gatherings......and the consensus is almost always 100%.......and when it is not....it is usually the person who owns a piece of gear that is the dissenter (ego attachment).
We can trust our hearing.....there is TRUTH in audio.....but you have to do many, many, many super critical listening tests to really KNOW anything........and this is why there are so many varied opinions....as there is way too much gear out there and the opportunity to have them at the same time is extremely limited. We are all bozos on the buss.....doing the best we can. What is best today will be tomorrows boat anchor.....that is for sure.
I don't have to hear anything to
know that your conclusions aren't based on anything factual, just your
own opinions.
This is a hobbyist's group, so opinions are what you get. It's not a scientific forum so if you want measurements, blind listening tests and other such distractions, you're likely to be disappointed here.
That's fine for you but it really has no value to anyone
other than yourself unless you back it up with evidence.
Is has no value to anyone - no one at all? And you know this how? And who is it exactly that has appointed you as their spokesperson? Details, please.
Don’t bother with this gentleman as he has made up his mind without even trying the stuff he does not understand. Really nothing one can say to a person with this mindset. Best to ignore and at worst get a chuckle.
We are all different with varying levels of curiously and open mindedness.
We are all different with varying levels of curiously and open mindedness.
Yes, exactly my point, we all are different, with different tastes and preferences. You can order a steak rare, medium rare, medium, or well done for a reason- what might that be?
There are people who swear by tubes, vinyl, and horns. There are just as many people who swear at them. Class A is best! No, class D! Ribbons! Horns! And on and on it goes.
So it is only reasonable to state that something that is "better" to one person may only be "different", or worse, to someone else. "oh, I can see 10 things I can do to take it to another level" is not going to be truth for everyone, despite the manic pleas of "just trust me, I have been doing this for years". Every time anyone asks for any objective proof, the answer is always "trust your ears". Well, I do trust mine, but I don’t take your money and tell you to trust my ears, I say trust your own. If you want to pay someone money to mess around with your equipment based solely on blind faith, a wish, and a prayer, without any basis is tangible reality, go ahead. Like old PT said, there’s a sucker born every minute.
You don’t see people like Bruno Putzkeys asking you to "just trust your ears". He publishes the results of his efforts. These tweak people are like parasites that live off the work of real engineers- what do they produce? Nothing- they take someone else’s work, wave their hands around and pronounce "I took it up another level". If they are such audio wizards, why don’t they have a go at designing and building something of their own? No wonder it’s called snake oil, fraud, and a con. They pray on the insecurity of others, nothing more. And heaven knows there are few groups as insecure as audio nuts. Put your cd in the freezer lately?
Something truths are worth saying....some untruths are a waste of time......and speaking of time......you will all see.....in time....whether my prediction will come true or not........very soon!
These tweak people are like parasites that live off the work of real engineers- what do they produce? Nothing- they take someone else’s work, wave their hands around and pronounce "I took it up another level".
Exactly !! I don't mind adding noticeable tweaks on old Ancient stuff purely for reliability and maybe sound quality as a bonus.
But when it comes to tweaking new stuff. What's the point especially since it void the warranty.
Yes, I'm a Fanboy of the Orchard Audio Amplifiers but aside from power supply changes merely cause it will look cool and it save me money from buying 3 switching Power Supplies with the same VAC/Amps. I won't touch what he has done with the very minimalist circuitry that's he's wrapped around GaN Amplifier chips. It sounds amazing.
Funny the Benchmark is the one with the most clarity. It is also the one with the lowest distortion. Imagine that!
No kidding. My Benchmark AHB2 monos are connected to a Topping pre90 and a Topping D90se DAC. Do I need to tell you what type of sound I am after on this system? My living room system.
I really do not understand what you are trying to communicate here. You do not like mods and think they are a waste of time. Great! However, I do not think that way and I have an example of where mods took a ground breaking audio piece, Sony SCD-1, to much greater levels of audio bliss. If this is to become a religious argument, so be it. I am a believer.
Just read some of the other posts here about not fixing anything that is not broke. Please do not do that to your gear and get your stomach tied up in knots. I understand that the precious warranty must be preserved until the very end.
Let others who are curious waste their money, total the warranty and do what they please. If it ain't hurting you why do you care?
I need to get back to work and not waste more time in this type of conversation.
I really do not understand what you are trying to communicate here. You
do not like mods and think they are a waste of time. Great! However, I
do not think that way and I have an example of where mods took a ground
breaking audio piece, Sony SCD-1, to much greater levels of audio bliss.
If this is to become a religious argument, so be it. I am a believer.
No, I didn't say I didn't like mods and think they are a waste of time. I don't like charlatans bilking people out of their money by claiming they can do a few superficial "tweaks" and suddenly take a solidly engineered product with state of the art performance and, wave hands, dramatically "improve" the product. It's a con. People want to believe and there's always a prophet willing to accommodate them, for a fee. History is full of these scammers and the world full of those all too willing to believe their tale.
There are mods that surely improve the performance of any machine, based on science and engineering. You want your car to go faster? Modify the engine to produce more horsepower, don't put racing stripes on it.
Can you think of another industry where you charge people to improve the performance of something and then denigrate those who ask for proof that they have actually received something for their money? "Trust me"....um, no thanks.
I don’t like charlatans bilking people out of their money by claiming they can do a few superficial "tweaks" and suddenly take a solidly engineered product with state of the art performance and, wave hands, dramatically "improve" the product. It’s a con. People want to believe and there’s always a prophet willing to accommodate them, for a fee. History is full of these scammers and the world full of those all too willing to believe their tale.
Here here🤙 especially when they don’t say what mods they will do for how much, when they just see a pic of it with no measurements and or oscilloscope bench testing and say they can take it to another level.
Blah, blah blah went the weeping anti tweakers.....If I described exactly what I did and know then it would not matter......you would say its still all voodoo......You guys have no clue because you do NOT LISTEN.....If you listened.....you would know. But instead, its a righteous rant.
Do you realize that all your equipment is modded? Every improvement by every manufacturer is a mod/tweak of what they did before. Everything is improving. Most here would not want amps, preamps or whatever from the 80s......they just are not modded enough.....not tweak enough. Mark Shifter said there were 5 revisions of the first board considered for the LSA......the new board....is rev D.......so that makes 9 mods.....9 tweaks. Don't you get it?.....any improvement is a tweak.....and mods includes, jacks, wire, fuses, chassis damping, op amps, capacitors, circuits, heatsinks, timing issues, rf, shielding....etc. etc. into infinity.
Again, many that have not listened to parts and things in a serious way think that it is all numbers......but most high end manufacturers are changing things to make it sound better....not measure better.....sometimes they get better measurements.....but usually, just better sound. Check out the latest buzz on the the Schitt audio Iggy DAC....they now have 3 different versions that all measure differently and a lot of those who listened blindly.....liked the worst measuring one the best......come on....go read it...
Wake up and smell the tweaks....a lot of nice flavors here.
ricevs, To convince skeptics that your mods increase the clarity and speed, for example, maybe you can explain in technical terms why they produce those sonic improvements. For example. on IceEdge amps like Legacy iv2 or Rouge, the input impedance is 38 Kohms or so. You increase it to 150 Kohms. To make an analogy with moving coil phono cartridge loading, I have always found that high loading of 47 Kohm yields more HF with clarity compared to loading in the 100's. Some have claimed that the 100's avoid the HF boost from loading at 47 Kohms. Personally, I don't care about whatever technical flaw of HF boost occurs--I like the increased openness and clarity at 47 K.
So why did the stock designers settle on 38K? Didn't they experiment with 150K? Maybe you will say that they didn't put in as much listening time as you did, and just decided that 38K measured well and they just settled there.
More generally, if Voyager did all these revisions, they did the listening. So why do you get better results after only a week of playing with it, compared to their 2 years of delays due to their tweaking?
Just a waste of time. Most of the stuff that changes and improves the sound has no technical (measurable at this time) benefit. You cannot convince ANYONE of anything. They have to be ready to change. The ego does not want to change......its whole game is survival of what is ALREADY known. Just like you are addicted to constantly talking about clarity and speed......and I am more and more addicted to Love and listening, sharing and mother/fathering. What addictions are most beneficial to real knowledge and real joy? We are all addicts! I love you.
OK, you can talk about love and so on, but you also mentioned that your mods bring more clarity and speed. You talk about that also, which is fine. We don't know all the technical correlates of great sound, but a skillful designer knows what circuit designs bring about whatever type of sound he desires. You also must know a lot about this also, such as why 150 K sounds more open or whatever. It is more obvious why your direct connection to the internal wiring, bypassing the binding posts, yields more open sound.
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