Just got mine last week. After 24 hours of play all I can say is that this is not your father's class D amplifier. There is not one thing about its sound that reminds me of the class D gremlins that I do not like. The low end filled in and now has deep impact, the midrange is the love child of a beautiful tube and clean hybrid amp - just gorgeous. Highs are very clean and extended. Spatial cues are top notch. My system has had some damn good tube and solid state amps in it before and it has never sounded this good. I am blown away with the quality of sound coming from class D amplification at this price point.
"
Damn, what happened to just figuring out how something sounds, how does it sound relative to other kit, and what are the system synergies. I mean, some of the tussles in this thread just blow my mind."
Amen to that - when I started following the thread (with real interest in the product), I had to look to see that it was really about the LSA amp vs. the now deleted EVS 1200 thread (and probably most of the other Class D threads). Some things just don't change. Just wanted to let everyone know who is positively contributing to the thread I greatly appreciate the information from real hands on experience.
OK......a little tid bit on the Voyager sound. Finally got to listening to the stock fully burned in Voyager (sitting on Mad Scientist footers....not the best ones, however) and the sound is very, very good. Lots of information. However, I was not moved.....even though it is very warm and big sounding. Last time I played the Luiz Bonfa CD I was crying (using the modded Purifi amp here). So, I did the AC mod (better wire, jack, less fusing, etc.)....now we are talking. It is not as warm but much clearer and faster and real sounding.....the micro harmonic info is not being covered by the excessive warmth. I am now more "moved" by the music. However, some could like the amp stock better....even with its coloration. I can see that. Me, I want the naked truth. However, there is more to be done and I hope it brings out even more harmonic info and delicacy.....without edging into the "hard sound" category.....something I do not like. The tweaking has just begun....next up is the output wiring and binding post bypass system.
Ricevs, Thanks for your analysis of just the AC mod, which in your words, changes the stock V to be "not as warm but much clearer and faster and real sounding." Apparently you found the stock V "very warm." From reading my posts, you know that I believe that less electronic warmth is associated with being clearer and faster, so you have confirmed my experience on this matter.
This is a great opportunity for you to write down your findings with each mod you do. You have never done this, but previously you have done all the mods and reported the final results. By changing a single variable at a time, this gives you a better understanding of everything you do, and reporting what you learn is valuable for everybody.
I should not have said.....very warm.....it is not very warm.....just warmer than winter. Music has natural warmth.....everything depends on everything else for synergy. It is harmonic richness that makes me cry.....not warmth per say. However, you need the right amount of warmth and all the harmonic richness (that comes from transparency, low noise and low distortion). What is the right amount of warmth?....no one knows.
Less electronic warmth is not always associated with faster and clearer....sometimes it is just a lack of warmth. It is not black and white like you always describe. Some warmth is added fuzz.....some is real.
Please do not tell me what I have done or not done.....how would you know? You are wrong about this. I have listened to every single thing I have ever done. I know what each mod does. This is why it takes me so long to do a product. I keep saying to myself...."just do all things that have always made a difference and be done"......but instead, I listen to each mod one at a time.....and almost always I get the same result as before.....but not always.....and since there is synergy.......there needs to be careful listening tests done.
OH my! Did a simple mod that made it warmer and more detailed. Then did another tweak to the system that was needed.....OMG this amp is good! I will wait till I have done several more mods to comment again. To busy crying.
The stock Voyager is very good however I had a similar feeling.
I was not moved
The Voyager is not as good being colored as my CODA and KRELL, which both sound great. Going the other way to make it sound super clear and naked would be a great choice.
1. LSA Voyager 350 $3000 2. Wyred for Sound amp $3000 not yet released 3. Peachtree 400 amp $3000 4. Orchard Audio amp $2500 about to ship
What’s with all the love for the LSA stuff & Peachtree stuff (pretty looking boxes) ? I’m sure it sounds pretty good but aren’t they just pre manufactured GaN Amplifier modules with a custom input stage. Kinda like what PS Audio does with the ICE Amplifiers with both FET (M700) and Tubes (M1200)
While I’m a self proclaimed Orchard Audio Ultra Fanboy, I see no recent activity over on the Unofficial page I setup
What gives ? Are you all a bunch of "Old Guy Geezer Audiophiles" that don’t takes these younger (under 50/under 40) Audio Engineers (ok...EE’s) seriously and just go buy whatever buzzword/company name is the flavor of the month ?
I seriously think it’s time Audiophiles give more credit and exposure to what’s happening now in the industry and stop reminiscing about the good ’ole days" of Tubes and Transistors.
No argument that the GaN stuff ain’t cheap to build and market. But as I read that people are seriously swapping out their dearly beloved Tubes & Transistors for these devices manufactured by Infineon & GaN Systems. It’s very reminiscent of when people got rid of their LP’s and replaced their collections with CD’s. While that was a mistake (myself included) in the 1980’s/1990’s. Technology’s such as DSD and Hi Bitrate PCM along with advances in CD remastering and come along since those harsh sounding CD’s of the 1980’s.
Hell, I’ve got a BATVK50-SE in front of Leo’s loaner Ultra Amplifier and it sounds fantastic !
" Technology’s such as DSD and Hi Bitrate PCM along with advances in CD
remastering and come along since those harsh sounding CD’s of the
1980’s."
Your clueless when it comes to REMASTERED CD's. The Original CD Pressings in the 1980's are VASTLY Superior in most cases compared to your beloved "remastered" Crapola nowadays that is compressed to death/Brickwalled/Loudness wars...whatever you want to call it. Maybe yours sound like garbage because it coincides with the level of gear your using.
rajugsw, Sorry you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. You sound like someone in need of love. I love you.....you are beautiful. The whole world loves you. Give yourself a hug.
Orchard makes a GaN module (that he tried to sell to VTV) and so does the company that makes the ones for Peachtree and LSA. Who is to say which module is better? The Orchard amp is not even released yet. And who cares how old someone is that designed it? Then there is the $3K Wyred for Sound amp coming soon. So, there will soon be 4 GaN amps in the same price range......then there are mods to each one.....so that makes 8 different possibilities. Are you going to be the first to have all 8 of them in your room at the same time and burn them all in for 200 hours and A/B them all and tell us which one you like best? The GaN wars are just starting. We will have more and more of them.
So, stop whining and enjoy what you have. Your amp may be better than "theirs", or it may be different, or worse. Sorry it means so much to you. FYI...The Orchard amp uses a cheap chassis from Italy.....I know, I used that one for my EVS1200 amp. If you press on the top it goes down. If you press on the back panel it moves in (I had to do mods to it to not have it do that). Not well designed. Do you think the Orchard tree logo looks great on it? The power supply Orchard uses is a stock power supply from Hypex. Sorry to burst your bubble. I don’t care which one is best.....I mod them all.
Enjoy this moment.....it is the only moment that is this moment. Breath......everything is fine.....just the way it is. Love yourself and everyone. Dance and sing a joyful song.
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook Your clueless when it comes to REMASTERED CD’s. The Original CD Pressings in the 1980’s are VASTLY Superior in most cases compared to your beloved "remastered" Crapola nowadays that is compressed to death/Brickwalled/Loudness wars...whatever you want to call it.
+1
For those in denial look at this (red bad squashed to death) compressed They only got together once and made the one album master, but it was re-released many times but got gradually squashed to death with compression the newer the release got. Just for listening in car/streaming/download/ipod and background music
Ricevs, My Rouge is pretty substantial. 23 lbs, decent casework. Francesco wrote me and asked whether I wanted white or blue LED on lights, details about engraving of the round dial on the front. He treated me as if I were ordering an expensive D'ag amp. Rouge looks like a higher class company than the DIY'ers. They have many different products using Pascal, Hypex, Anaview modules as well as IceEdge. Thanks for recommending Rouge.
If the LAS Voyager was an off the shelf module that was 'merely' in need of an input, I and presumably many others would not have been waiting 2 full years from it's initial intorduction
Actually, the Voyager and Peachtree are using off the shelf modules (the amp modules and power supply) that do not need a separate input stage. They are both plug and play boxes. There will be more companies following suit. LSA and Peachtree had very little to do with the development of these modules......they are end users.
The main reason GaN amps have taken so long to be available is.......you had to design your own amp board, like Merrill, Orchard, AGD and Class D audio did. There were no companies making and selling GaN based modules. Now there is. And these modules are really good!.....even without mods.
Here is the main problem with Class D.......it is complex The input buffer on a class D amp has as much circuitry in it as a Coda 8 amp. And that is just the first input buffer. And these input buffers are usually $1 op amps.....not discrete stages.....this is true for AGD, Orchard, LSA, Peachtree, and Class D audio. I don’t know what is in the Merrill as they will not allow anyone to remove the cover. So, you have an input stage that is not as pure as the whole Coda amp....then you add another op amp......and then maybe more and then the driver and then the output devices and then the coil on the output.....Wow! it is amazing that they sound good at all!!! And they do. Miracles do happen.
But there is no way there will ever be a class D amp that is truly state of the art until someone does every thing to the nth degree.....that means no op amps.....that means every part picked for sound.....this is what Boulder and Coda and Gryphon, etc. do. When you see these big companies make a class D amp.....the game will be over. Class A will truly be boat anchors...
So, is the new $3000 about to be released GaN amp from Wyred for Sound all built with discrete transistors and tweaked to the max? How about the new Mytek GaN amps at $6K and $20K? Will we see state of the art class D soon?
So, if the AGD amp has $1 op amps on its front end....how come it sounds so good? Because you have a listener/tweaker at its helm. He spent hundreds of hours tweaking the Mk II version. Please read the review on Enjoy the Music about it.
However, as long as he keeps those $1 op amps in there....it will never be state of the art. No doubt he is tinkering away as I speak.
All the new GaN amps are great for the money.....and modded they can be taken to new heights......but do not expect state of the art.....not yet.....soon....however, it probably won’t be cheap if everything is done to the nth degree........I would guess above $10K......and at first, maybe way out there.
So, now you know.
Have a great every moment......you deserve it. You are beautiful.
But there is no way there will ever be a class D amp that is truly state of the art until someone does every thing to the nth degree
This is correct, but even more important for Class-D to be able to do to over take the best linear amps, is that they cannot come close to doubling their wattage for each halving of impedance from 8ohm to 4ohm to 2ohm for those speakers that are very hard to drive eg: Wilson Alexia
And the even bigger problem to get rid of, is the phase shift in the audio band that the output filter creates to rid the output of most of the switching frequency noise https://ibb.co/Bs1tJ7d . And the only way to do this is to take it all up higher x 3 (switching frequency and filter) to 1.5mhz or more instead of 600khz.
ONLY then, could it be called to be better, than or equal to, the very best liner amplification.
It's funny reading the "arched back"😬 responses from those with a buck to make/loose in this game on threads that they push their own stuff that's got no technical cred whatsoever.
All I can say is that my bias against class D amps has evaporated after listening to the L SA Voyager. I have had some awesome Class A, class A/B and tube amps in my systems. I know good to excellent sound and I hear it with the Voyager - it is excellent. Is it the best amp in the world? I doubt it. Nevertheless, the amp is a superb clean, crystalline, spacious amp with great tone colors. It doesn't break your back to pick up and move around either.
Maybe it has trouble driving difficult loads but it has zero difficulty blissfully driving my modded Revel F208s. There are tradeoffs with virtuly any purchase of stereo equipment. I love and have several behemoth Class A amps that I can herniated my back from lifting, the best being my PassLabs X250.5 that is being modded at present. I am very happy with the Voyager and have no longing for my other amps.
I had no idea class D could sound like this and I am sure it can be made to sound better. I am no golden ear but, IMO, I have fairly good ears. The Class D gallium nitride amps seem to be the real deal.
Maybe it has trouble driving difficult loads but it has zero difficulty blissfully driving my modded Revel F208s
Very easy to drive, no bad -phase angle at those 4ohm dips, so yes Class-D friendly, 4 ohms is where they do their best work, but start to panic at 2ohms, especially if it’s accompanied with >-40 phase angle https://www.stereophile.com/images/714R208fig1.jpg
George, You keep spouting the technical merits of a 1.5MHz switching frequency as a requirement to excellent SQ. You should listen to an Audion to realize what a lowly 400kHz can do. I would bet that if you listened to the gen2 Audion at 800kHz you'd forget the 1.5Mhz thing - if you had any sense.
Please if you don’t know what it means by now, don’t keep asking. This explain it all, https://ibb.co/Bs1tJ7d at 600khz Even at Technics at 1.5mhz there is still some small amount of phase shift in the audio band, so at 800k it's still there "almost" as bad as Icepowers 600k
The LSA Voyager 350 that @ricevs is modding for me can definitely drive my difficult to drive Thiel CS3.7's. Now I did not crank the music to very loud levels but other amps were lacking on these speakers at the moderate levels I listen too.
That was me selling it. It’s only because I feel my Parasound integrates into my 5.1 class A/B system better. The voyager sounded fine in that scenario, but the Parasound was better. On its own in a 2.0 or 2.1 system, the Voyager is excellent all around. If I were using it for only 2 channel system, I would never have put it up for sale.
Please guys.....do not respond or reply to George. He will just say the same thing over and over again. He will fight, fight, fight you. It does not matter to him that he has no proof of his 1.5 meg switching superiority or necessity.......he will just keep saying it over and over again and posting the same graph of phase shift over and over again. In all the years he has been pushing this idea.....not one single manufacturer has gone higher than 800K.....none.....many say it is actually a bad thing to do and causes to many problems.... to go any higher than 800K.
However, I think there is merit to pushing the switching frequency as high as possible....and I have said so several times. Three companies claim that raising the switching frequency to 7-800 K improved the sound (AGD, New Class D and New Prime (the first to do it)......so, there might be some benefit to going even higher if it can be done without drawbacks. Technics did it with their first $17K digital amp......and it is considered very good sounding. But to think it is the ONLY THING NEEDED to get "state of the art sound" without any proof whatsoever and keep stating it over and over as FACT is really just the rantings of a delusional soul trying his hardest to prove his worth. To bad he does not see how beautiful he is....then he could stop all his constant rantings.....saying the same thing over and over while he pounds his chest and calls people names......Growing up is not easy......we all have self esteem issues....if we did not....we would not be on the earth. This is our playground.....this is our SCHOOL. We have come to learn....to grow....and to find our true nature......the bliss that we inherently are.
So, when George spouts off.....just let it be....otherwise its a spiral of wasted energy for all. I hold George in the light....just bless him....like you can when a crazy speeding car or motorcycle races past you......just say "bless you and be safe".
George is blessing us by being how he is. He is a test from spirit. It is the same with the entire universe. Everything will keep pressing your button until you realize it is all perfect....RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW. You do not have much control over the circumstances of life.....but you have complete control of your response. If you hold life as sacred and everything as sacred then you realize that the button pusher is divine. You welcome it. However, there will be no button to push when you give up YOUR desire and attitude that keeps the button in place. You will eventually react less and less and finally someone will kick the button like heck....and you will just grin.....thinking.....Oh yeah I saw that film on tv years ago.....don’t need to watch that again. We create each other to grow. So, we created George for our entertainment and growth. Blessed is he. But the more attention you give to reacting and being in resistance....the more miserable you are. So, pay more attention to what brings you joy and less to what you resist. When you stop fighting and resisting and trying to be right.....then your world will be bliss (battles over). "Excuse me while I kiss the sky" Have a great week.
Ricevs, To quote you, "So, I did the AC mod (better wire, jack, less fusing, etc.)....now we are talking. It is not as warm but much clearer and faster and real sounding.....the micro harmonic info is not being covered by the excessive warmth. I am now more "moved" by the music."
This is an excellent summary of what I am saying and looking for. Even though you later qualified your statement to mean that the Voyager is "warmer than the winter" this original quote says it all. (Often in life, our first statement is how we really feel). Live, unamplified music has the micro harmonic info that makes us cry. All audio systems bury the micro info to some extent in the electronic warmth, which is nothing more than distortion from fuzz and mush. Notice how you say that after your AC mod, the sound "is not as warm but much clearer and faster and real sounding." YES!
Please guys.....do not respond or reply to George. He will just say the
same thing over and over again. He will fight, fight, fight you. It does
not matter to him that he has no proof of his 1.5 meg switching
superiority or necessity
Kettle, meet pot!
Ric the Tweaker who keeps saying the same bs over and over with no proof, is no different than that other class D dogmatist. At least George tries to offer some sort of rationale, but not Ric: "everything matters". He never includes the part about how most of his voodoo has never been proven to have any basis in fact or reality or the fact that human perception does indeed have limits. Oh, and there is also that pesky bit of reality he ignores called subjective opinion. All his tweaks make things "better". Better for his bank account, for sure, but do people honestly believe everyone has the same opinion/taste as to what is "better"? I am amazed at the people here who blindly drink the koolaid. A fool and his money...
Just felt that as this point I needed to send along a few points.
Not here in any way to argue or attempt to interpret anything about the Voyager as said by others. I will however mention a few points as it relates to us.
There were two of us involved from the very beginning of POC and Module Testing from the very beginning. That would be Doug Goldberg and myself beginning in 2015 (yes... you read that right)
Post these early tests which included some AMAZING higher power modules... my friends Peter Madnick, EJ Sarmento and later, Dr Viet Nguyen contributed to findings and feedback. This is especially true for EJ and Peter. We have all tested and participated in DIRECT FEEDBACK with the maker. I have known this incredible guy I've known for well over 30 years.
There were several suggestions made during the dev process on the lower power version of this module. This one was the 200 watt version. Walter ultimately decided that he wanted to go with the Higher Power Version which did slow us a bit.
There were many (read please MANY) revs of the original module. If memory serves - 5 in total, and a huge amount of man-hours testing and listening. I personally have probably near to 300 hours in test and listening to the 200 watt version and then over 100 more with the current module.
The team that developed these modules and SMPS are some of the brightest super-power Engineers known (to me or otherwise). A real Dream Team.
Lots of decisions were made along to way productizing The Voyager GaN 350. I'm proud of the product, and I know our team is as well. This is a very special amplifier. Walter stuck to the program and our end users are reporting some fine results.
Looking at the V 350 under the hood pic, it appears one area to upgrade, that could improve the overall sound, is heavier gauge wire from the modules to the inputs
Looking at the V 350 under the hood pic, it appears one area to upgrade, that could improve the overall sound, is heavier gauge wire from the modules to the inputs
After reading what corepowertech said about the care and testing that went into producing this amplifier, I feel that if increasing the wire diameter would have increased the sound quality it would have been increased. Probably less than $1 cent total cost.
"
Last week I got the mini GAN from class D audio. I have been very impressed with this little amp. I also have the Carver Crimson 275 tube and Van Alstine synergy 450 SS amp. Frankly I like it better than AVA amp and as good as the Crimson 275 with much more power and bass impact. I have also ordered the Voyager 350 and waiting for its delivery."
Thanks for the update. I have the mini GAN too (for a bit) but I just bought it for HT as it is easier just to swap speaker cables when I watch a movie (my main system is an integrated AV system). I broke the mini GAN amp using my UHD HT listening to 2-channel files via my Panasonic 9000 (which goes into a Sherbourne preamp and then out to the amp).
I didn't do detailed comparisons (have old B&W P6s as mains in that system) vs. the Mivera SE amp (with upgraded fuses) but could tell it certainly was somewhere in the same league. At one point I had the Mivera in another secondary system (in a small bedroom) where it trounced an old Bryston 3BST right out of the box. The Mivera then went into the main system where it bettered my Modwright KWA150 SE (which had bettered a Bryston 14BSST I owned before) and now have the EVS 1200 in the main system (driving Thiel 3.7s, Modwright LS 36.5 DM preamp and Lumin U1 music server) which was better than the Mivera.
I am still amazed to this day that the last two (IcePower) Class Ds were better than the Class A/AB amps both in sound quality and driving the Thiel 3.7s (and given their impedance I am still amazed - https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements). I had Thiel 7.2s before the 3.7s which were a tougher load (base on experience with the Class A/AB amps noted above and others). About 7-8 years back I heard Class Ds at an audio show and while they had come a long way, at that point in time they seemed to run out of steam driving some speakers.
I do think that Class A/AB at some point will become undesirable for most (e.g. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/mbl-noble-line-n11-preamplifier-and-n15-monoblock-amplifie...) given how Class D is progressing. There is one used KWA-150 SE on hifishark right now for with an asking price of $3,457 ( https://reverb.com/item/36606380-modwright-kwa-150se-stereo-power-amplifier-signature-edition-kwa150...) Given the fact it is a current model that lists for $9k and I've seen other used listings at $3.5k or below, I'd think that for those who objectively listen (vs. those with no experience and prejudice based on hypothetical theories - and there will always be a bunch of those - I wouldn't expect those making more expensive Class A,AB amplifiers to agree as it is not in their financial interest) the word is spreading. It may be a bit before Class D starts to compete with the likes of Constellation, VAC, Boulder, D'Agostino amplifiers, etc., but it has come a really long way.
After reading what corepowertech said about the care and testing that
went into producing this amplifier, I feel that if increasing the wire
diameter would have increased the sound quality it would have been
increased. Probably less than $1 cent total cost.
Most amp designers/builders are trying to produce an amp that does one thing: produce an output that is as close to the input as they possibly can, only larger. That's what an amp is suppose to do, by definition. Anything that produces a noticeable change in the output, unless it can be shown to be a truer representation of the input, is noise. It may be that some like that noise. It may be that some don't. It may be that the noise is too small in magnitude to matter either way. All of this tweak nonsense assumes that every change is audible to all, and that everyone will agree that the new output spectra is "better". All of this without any factual basis, just "trust me". Are people really that gullible?
kuribo, You are one of the few people on any Agon forum to agree with me that the ideal of high fidelity is best achieved with neutrality/transparency. The "straight wire with gain" is indeed what an amp is supposed to do. Good for you to imply boldly that coloration is just noise.
cascadesphil, In what sonic way is the EVS1200 better than the Mivera? My experience with Bryston is that only my 2.5B SST2 is outstandingly neutral/transparent. Earlier ST and SST 3B and 4B models are really mediocre.
Have not heard the Bryston cubed series but have owned both the 14BSST and 6BSST (3 channel 4BSST essentially) amps, The Modwright KWA 150SE was better than both of those in my main system (Modwright LS 36.5DM preamp). I initially had Thiel 7.2s when I bought the Bryston amps lightly used and then picked up the Thiel 3.7s (and then the Modwright amp). The 7.2s where harder to drive than the 3.7s.
A few years back (summer of 2017) a friend was bugging me about Class D. I told him the last I listened to a bunch of them (probably around 2014 or so) they were getting better but I didn't think they were there yet. I told him I was going to RMAF in October 2017 and would look at them more seriously and to hold on as I'd probably buy one for one of my secondary systems at some point.
In early 2018 (I believe), I started to see threads about the Mivera amp and then picked up the SE version. I broke it in using a secondary system where at the time I had an Odyssey Candela preamp, a Bryston 3BST amp, a Meitner MA-1 DAC and Ohm Microwalsh Tall speakers augmented by a Rel Strata III sub. It's a small bedroom and I had a mini PC running JRiver. I merely substitued the Mivera for the Bryston 3BST. After running the Mivera for a bit over a week, I brought it over to the friend's place where he had a First Watt J2. The Mivera to me was clearly better.
I picked up upgraded fuses and first compared the Mivera to am Emotiva XPA200 I had in my UHD system (Sherbourn preamp and B&W P6 speakers). The Mivera smoked it. Then I compared it to the Modwright in the main system (Modwright preamp, EMM Labs DAC 2X and Lumin U1 music server) and the Mivera was clearly better in every way (which shocked me as I was thinking I'd just put the Mivera back in a secondary system. I cautiously played the Mivera as I was afraid it wouldn't drive my Thiel 3.7s (was I wrong).
Anyway, when I got the EVS1200 (which is dual mono and modded vs. the stereo IcePower board in the Mivera), I broke it in using the system with the B&W P6s (before using it in the main system). Of course it had more power but the ease, clarity, tonality and imaging were clearly much better. I expected it to be a drop better but it surpassed that. It exhibited those same improved qualities in the main system. I had multiple friends over so all the impressions noted above are not just my opinion.
I could easily live with the EVS 1200 (although I'm sure there as things better). I've upgraded secondary systems (still working on those) including the office system (now have Vanatoo Transparent Ones) and watching this thread with interest. Not in a rush. Through the journey, I don't think much of the Bryston squared series (btw, I've also owned Bryston preamps and I also owned one of their DACs - I've not heard the newer cubed series). There's a used 6BSST being sold by The Music Room right now and they are asking $3.3k. To me (my opinion) that's insanely overpriced. A new Bryston 14B cubed (and I've not heard the cubed series (just was that disappointed in comparing cheaper things to the squared series) is around $11.2k. Right now there is a (used) Gryphon Diablo 300 (integrated) on the Canuck Audio Mart for $13k USD. If I was going to spend that kind of money I'd grab the Gryphon. When I bought my Bryston amps (lightly used around 2002 and 2003), they were good values. Then the price of the Canadian dollar vs. the USD soared (and the CAD was worth a bit more at one point) and the list price of the Brystons went through the roof. When the Canadian dollar retreated (I think it is around $0.79 USD as of today), the prices didn't go back.
The current worldwide shortage of some parts I'm sure impacts prices as well and will continue to do so. I'd guess that it is encouraging audio enthusiasts to try some of the newer Class D amps. It seems to me that there are many mainstream A/AB amps (not talking about the ultra high end) being sold for less than they used to be (I noted about the Modwright KWA 150SE in an early response). I wouldn't even consider the Bryston squared series bought used for a home theater as there are better things out there for less money (I realize there are many things today that are sold consumer direct vs. through a dealer network which also impacts that factor). I think that's why there are dealers who deal in the ultra high end who have store fronts in places like industrial parks vs. tradional shopping centers. Those ultra high end products, while really expensive, are clearly better than most of the amps discussed here.
Sometimes, he plays music I end up liking. The above is Part 2 (of three - part three isn't out yet - part one was put out a couple of days ago).
It is done at the location of a dealer (Suncoast Audio on the Florida's West Coast) who carries some of the best stuff. If you look at other videos online and see Jay's system, one can see he has a super serious high end system. I linked this part as Part 1 dealt with his top tier amplifiers. In this part, he mentions Merrill Audio, specifically their Element 118 Class D amplifiers (and I've personally heard them at audio shows) and mentions that they may even belong in Part 1 with the list of top tier amplifiers.
That's one reason actual listening (vs. hypothesizing with no experience) is most desirable. Anyone who watches his videos can see what high end components he has and has had (and I'd venture to say that many would take the stuff he didn't like in a heartbeat) and while of course everyone can have an opinion, a preconceived opinion without hands on experience is what it is. I wouldn't seek medical treatment from someone who has read a few medical books and has some experience as a dental hygienist. It's not that such a person is without any medical knowledge or is not smart. It is just not the same as someone who has finished medical school and been practicing for years.
kuribo, You are one of the few people on any Agon forum to agree with
me that the ideal of high fidelity is best achieved with
neutrality/transparency. The "straight wire with gain" is indeed what
an amp is supposed to do. Good for you to imply boldly that coloration
is just noise.
When you ask any of these tweaker snakes what they mean by "better", they almost by definition bring out a slew of subjective judgments. There is nothing inherently wrong with stating an opinion but to opine that what one likes better must be some sort of objective truth is naive at best and tends more towards pure salesmanship when coming from the purveyors of all this audio shamanism. Wake up people! There is no "better" when it comes to subjective opinion- there is only different and what YOU perceive to be better. When someone says "A is better than B" without any factual evidence of objective superiority, what is actually implied is "I like A better than B". Will you? Maybe yes, maybe no. Confirmation bias after shelling out the extra money makes it almost impossible for people to evaluate the "tweak" objectively.
Sure you can put racing stripes on your new corvette and claim it rides better. You can put a gold leaf label around your bottle of $10 wine and claim it tastes better. You can claim your amp sounds better when your dog is in the room. And for you, it can certainly be true because opinions are not facts, they are based on individual perceptions. And if we know anything for certain, we know that individual perceptions and tastes vary greatly.
So, yes, give me an amp without any "sound" please. When I order a steak, I want to season it to MY taste, not someone else's, thank you.
Why the anger? Name calling? Goodness, this is all subjective and we are here to share the sound we like and what sounds most real and right to us. No right or wrong. No winner. No enemy.
Tweakers, non-tweakers, it does not matter. We are all human and will hear the same live, unamplified music event differently, never mind a stereo system. Yes differently.
kuribo, I don't mind someone saying something is "better," IF he describes what "better" means. For you and me, "better" means closer to neutrality with more clarity. For a tubaholic, "better" means warmer, sweeter, fuller, etc. I can read the comments of both types of listeners and learn something about the product being reviewed. To obtain maximum usefulness in reviews, "better" should be dropped, and more precise descriptors should be used.
I don't mind someone saying something is "better," IF he describes what
"better" means. For you and me, "better" means closer to neutrality
with more clarity. For a tubaholic, "better" means warmer, sweeter,
fuller, etc.
@viber6 For a tubeaholic, "better" means 'closer to neutrality
with more clarity'. Just so you know. That might depend on the 'tubeaholic' but all the ones I know are looking for neutrality and clarity that they can't get with solid state. This quite literally is what has kept Atma-Sphere going the last 46 years.
I mention this only so that you know that 'tubeaholics' are not so crazy as you seem to make out (I apologize if I'm putting words in your mouth).
I can identify why this is so: between 1960 and 2005 or so **all** amps employing feedback didn't have enough feedback for it to do what it is supposed to- get rid of distortion. In all cases, while suppressing distortion it also added some of its own. The distortion it adds is higher ordered harmonics and the ear perceives that as 'harsh and bright'; the 'solid state' sound. You can get a tube amp to sound like that too if you add enough feedback. In the cases of both tube and solid state the problem is insufficient loop gain; insufficient gain bandwidth product and poor phase margins (which, if exceeded, results in oscillation).
It is literally the brightness of solid state which is why tubes still exist! You don't have to know anything technical to understand this; its economics and nothing else.
Self oscillating class D amps offer a way around all this. Essentially you put so much feedback on the amp that its phase margin is exceeded and the amp oscillates. That becomes the switching frequency, and now you have a lot of feedback (more than 35dB) which then allows the amp to clean up the higher ordered harmonics generated by the feedback itself. A single formula, called the 'oscillation criteria' defines the loop gain, amount of feedback and oscillation frequency.
One thing about human hearing is that it is relatively insensitive to the lower ordered harmonics (the 2nd and 3rd in particular, which are treated in the same way). Another thing about the ear is the masking principle. The reason solid state has a reputation of harsh and bright with 'tubaholics' is the higher ordered harmonics are not masked by the lower orders as they are in a tube amp. Tube amps actually make more higher ordered content than solid state amps but they are smoother due to the masking principle; you can see how important this is if distortion is going to be present (and it always is)!
It turns out that the non-linearities of class D can cause lower ordered harmonic distortion to occur. These mostly are issues in the encoding scheme and distortion due to deadtime. With the high amount of feedback, the THD you get is at the same levels that you get with a very low distortion solid state amp but there **can** be an essential difference: the distortion *signature* can be more like a tube amp in that it favors the lower orders. Simply due to the lowered distortion, such an amp can be both very neutral and very relaxed- just like a tube amp (until it gets overloaded). Sort of the best of both worlds- an amp with excellent transparency, relaxed, musical presentation and acts like a true voltage source all at the same time.
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