LSA Voyager GAN Amplifier

LOL this is some entertaining stuff...

OK, you can talk about love and so on,

Always the peace/love/dope/Woodstock card comes out when backed into a corner.

Changing the input impedance from 38k to 150k will do absolutely nothing if the source has a "normal low'ish" (say <150ohm) output impedance that will drive both, making the input 150kohm, could very well "only serve" to have higher measured noise in the end.

And willy/nilly changing the input of an amp to something 4x higher "can" create offset and other problems, there was a reason it was 38k to start with.

Cheers George 

Love is not just in a corner but everywhere present......right this moment. It is in you, Woodstock. Me, I am sunshine. Actually, people used to call me that years ago......I really am Sunshine.....a beam of light......a Light Being.....and so are you.....so is everyone.

Blah, Blah Blah went the person who did not hear the difference between bad sounding 38K resistors and great sounding 148K resistors (the brand of resistor and the impedance both give a sonic improvement....my source was 50 ohms high current capability....class A output discrete stage). But of course, you had to be there and listen to know anything. Only listening to something gives real knowledge.....your opinion.....is based on nothing real....no listening tests.

Every improvement by every manufacturer is a mod/tweak of what they did before.

It’s called product development. Like when Bruno Putzkeys developed the UcD amp, then improved it through r&d into the Ncore, and now, after developing mathematical models to define the feedback behavior of his circuit, testing, analyzing, and measuring, it has been refined and the result is the Purifi amp. They don’t give patents to tweaks to someone else’s work. What product have you developed?

To try and frame your racing stripes as somehow on the same level as the development work Bruno has done to perfect his circuit is ludicrous. Like comparing a brain surgeon to a prison tatoo artist. Pathetic.

Bad sounding this, good sounding that...the Oracle has spoken...

Only listening to something gives real knowledge.....your opinion.....is based on nothing real

Indeed, your opinion is based on nothing real. It's all just a wave of the hands, a wink and a smile, send money.

“Perception is merely a lens or mindset from which we view people, events, and things.” In other words, we believe what we perceive to be accurate, and we create our own realities based on those perceptions. And although our perceptions feel very real, that doesn't mean they're necessarily factual."

Products developed:

Ultimate Attenuators......I invented the shunt attenuator in 1989......Ultimate Attenuators were class A rated in Stereophile for 7 years. Reviewed by Robert Harley in July 1990.

Hand Made DAC......this DAC using the UltraAnalog DAC chips and input receiver as well as the HDCD digital filter was one of the best DACs in the world in the late 90s.......only 15 of these incredible hand made things exist.

Millennium DAC.....these lower cost DACs are still prized by many.....see reviews at Audio Review......about 100 of these made......last version had fully custom discrete fet output stage that was my own design.

Lots of mods to SACD/DVD and Blue Ray players...many using a discrete fet stage of my own design......check out my website for pics of the latest hand made tweaky deaky thing.

Modified Nuforce class D amps.....made and sold amps using modified UCD modules and modified IcePower modules.

My list of accomplishments could go on forever.....but it will never convince someone who is set in his ways....that anything I do or say has any value.  My results speak for themselves and my customers.....speak for me.  I have a great reputation.  That says it all.  People are happy with the results of my products and mods......of course, not everyone......but rarely does anyone have anything negative to say about the sound of what i do.

No patents here.....but that does not mean I don’t have a ton of knowledge as to what makes good sound. You listen, you learn. You don’t listen....you don’t learn. What have you listened to and what did you learn? I am continuously learning.....I just learned that my binding post bypass system that I have been using is actually no better than a great binding post.......because......if you use a metal binding post as the clamp it sounds as bad as running the signal through it. You want to use Nylon, Teflon or wood as your clamp......nothing conductive. The mass of the metal conductor acts as a bad electron storage device. You really want to remove any connectors on your speaker wires.....it will BLOW your mind.....no spades, no bananas, no five way binding posts......you either solder or clamp using no metal.....for best sound. Just discovered this, this last week......there is always more.....and more.....into the infinity of love and joy......Blessings.

one of the best DACs in the world in the late 90s.......only 15 of these incredible hand made things exist.

Sounds like it really took the market by storm. And the other one sold 100...Wow, not much love it seems for these mind blowers...So much for building a better mousetrap.

But you did soldier together some resistors and "create" an attenuator. Bravo.

And this is why people should believe you can improve and optimize state of the art products like Purifi, Voyager, etc., to heights their designers were not capable of achieving? And you wonder why there are skeptics? It just keeps getting better.

.into the infinity of love and joy......Blessings.

https://youtu.be/YTY26k0CA0I?t=1🤦‍♂️

I am sure most people can make up their own mind about the value of tweaks and modifications. They can also decipher for themselves the value of posts here.  No more needs to be said.

Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu.

Yeah like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrx8PhOhqQ&ab_channel=RickSchultz

And you really need to change the bong water every now and again.

Talking about ignorance!!!!!.......this is the "other" tweaky Rick Schultz

I am Ric Schultz

He is even more tweaky than me in some ways......must be the name.

Peace, I offer you.  

Like I said time to clean your bong water

I still have a pair of attenuators. Alas, my system is all true balanced
George, did you try this tweak, or summarily dismiss it, like most things you argue against?
K&M Magnets sell a wide variety of magnets

Already a used Voyager for  sale on Audio Mart.  

I have never seen more bologna being thrown around outside of a bologna sandwich.  Entertaining it is but far from reality. 

@ricevs Give me a call when you are free. Some potentially exciting news for you about having a lot more ears on my modded amp.

ricevs, 
You said, "...the difference between bad sounding 38K resistors and great sounding 148K resistors (the brand of resistor and the impedance both give a sonic improvement....my source was 50 ohms high current capability....class A output discrete stage)."

Ah, the difference.  What you found is the difference in the quality/brand of the resistors.  What if you try the same high quality resistor for 38K and 148K?  That would address George's point about whether the value of 38K, 148K makes the difference.  I know you said you did this, that the value makes a difference, but it would be nice to evaluate technically with measurements also.  Ideally, the better sound should correlate with better measurements.  We need both the subjectivists and objectivists to have the best understanding of how we all can improve sound.  The objectivists need to do more listening, and the subjectivists should try to do more measuring, although even the smartest objectivists don't have all the answers.

George,
I understand your point about how 38K is high enough, which is similar to the interface principle about having the input impedance of a power amp be over 10 times the output impedance of the preamp or other source.  But maybe 100-1000 times is better than 10 times, as with my Denon 305 MC cartridge with its impedance of 40 ohms, having more HF extension and clarity going into a phono stage at 47K ohms rather than 400 ohms.  Is my analogy correct?

Different story with a mechanical/electrical source as MM or MC Cartridges, they need sometime none or lots of electrical damping, which in some cases can give the impression of more detail extension and clarity, maybe because of reduced bass output. As they do not have a mostly fixed output impedance like a solid state output stage has. We used to load down the Supex SD900 with 10ohms to get them to sound right.
Cheers George

George,
No, what I heard from 47K loading of a few MC cartridges into a few phono stages was more extended HF, rather than reduced bass which thins the tonal balance but doesn't yield more HF.

Viber
No, what I’m saying these are two very different scenarios, one (the phono cartridge) has quite variable output impedance due to it being a electro/mechanical device, it "could" go very high impedance in the highs. Where a solid state output stage is quite fixed, especially if it direct coupled, if capacitor coupled and not large enough it can go very high in the lows.

You try the same but with the preamp output stage(<100ohms) vs the poweramp input stage 37kohm or 100kohm, you won’t find a difference.

Also you haven’t mentioned what’/if the parallel pf capacitance has been used across each channel of the cartridge, or in the phono stage.

I’ve done many presentation at our audio society, with a solid state direct coupled low impedance output source (eg: <100ohms) you will not find any difference in sound with a load impedance of 38kohm v 100kohm, and nobody at the meetings could pick the difference, the 100kohm "could" get slightly more noisier, as seen on a scope, and create filtering effects if the interconnects are extremely high capacitance.

Cheers George

With the 1K output impedance, 38K is a ratio of 38, and 100K is a ratio of 100, both way above 10, so I would expect the 38K and 100K to sound the same, as you found.  However, public demonstrations in unfamiliar systems are not as revealing as making changes in your own familiar system.  So ricevs' improvement in sound quality must be due mainly to the better quality resistor he is using in his mods compared to stock.  Let ricevs say whether I am correct or not.

You are both wrong.....he he....resistor types/brands can make as much difference as anything.....We found that out years ago with different brands of resistors loading our moving coil cartridge.....huge differences.

Same with impedance.  $150K sounded much better than 49K......both had the same brand and type of resistor.  The "better" brand of resistor was already superior to the stock resistor.  This is on the input of the amp (not a cartridge load.....we also liked 100 ohms for our Supex cartridges).

Here is an interesting story for all you measurement types.  Back in the 70s it was all a big club....everyone knew everyone.  High end was super small and few companies.  We knew David Fletcher who owned Sumiko (importer of Supex and Fidelity Research Cartridges)....in fact, we were in the same City (Berkeley, CA).  So, we borrowed 10 brand new Supex cartridges form Dave and mounted them on universal headshells and gave each one a number on a piece of small masking tape on the side of the cartridge.  Three of us listened all day on my system......All the cartridges came with frequency sweep graphs that told you nothing as they were so similar.  There were three categories of cartridges.....the meh ones....the OK ones and the great ones (three of them).....and one was clearly the winner..  This is how you learn to trust your hearing.  All three of us agreed with every ranking.....it was easy to hear.  I wonder if cartridges are as variable today as they were back in the 70s.   By the way, we did the same test with 5 Fidelity Research cartridges....maybe a year later.....mostly we preferred those to the Supex.

You are both wrong.....he he....resistor types/brands can make as much difference as anything.....

That was always going to be a given, doubt very much you could tell any difference between all the "known good branded" same value/wattage metal film resistors as an input loading resistor to ground.
Just like you say you can see many mods you can do to this amp to take it to another level just by looking at this photo, https://ibb.co/Dr86JY6

Of course, that is exactly where we heard the difference.......as a cartridge load to ground.   We all heard the difference in ALL brands and types of resistors.....still can, wherever they are used in a circuit. Tons of audio companies pick resistors for "sound".  It is true that most "metal film" resistors of the same type and wattage will sound similar.....but try a Caddock or Nude Vishay or various good sounding surface mount resistors.....and a way different sound emerges. 

Yeah, whatever Ric.

ricevs,
No, we actually agree mostly all the way.  It is intuitively plain to me how resistors could have their own sound relating to their materials and design.  Transistors are semi-conductors, and even the name "transistor" is similar to "resistor"  he he.  Vacuum tubes have been called natural amplification devices, and it is surprising that semi-conductors have the great specs that they do.  So resistors are devices of their own.  Someone must have come up with measurements that correlate with the superior sound of the resistors you like.  So in what way was the 150K resistor better sounding than the 38K of the same brand?  Did the 150K in that circuit have more HF extension than 38K, analogous to how the 47K ohm loading of the MC cartridge has more HF than at 100 ohm?

Your cartridge story is amusing.  Cartridges are complex beings like speakers, and it is well known that speaker measurements don't correlate much with the character of sound emanating from those boxes.  However, I can well imagine that the best sounding cartridge you heard had better specs than the others, but the routine simple amplitude/freq sweeps, static/dynamic compliance specs don't tell much, and are merely at the kindergarten level.

You are beautiful, I love you and thank you for sharing your light with me and everyone.....it is a blessing that you are in the world

You mostly don’t test stuff or rarely change your equipment, you make comments on what others say. You are like Howard Cosell.....calling a fight.....you summarize and make pointed comments. Are you being of service? What did we just learn? Service is love with doing. What is the actual purpose of your last post? Did the post come from your heart?.....or from some need for recognition?....or ? Only you know. Real knowledge is power. The power to make a real difference.

We all eventually will do this....for....a life unexamined....is a life asleep.  I try and make every word and post a blessing to all.....sometimes my ego gets in the way.....we are all bozos on the bus.  Our reality will catch up with our deepest intentions.  My deepest intention is that everyone.....I mean everyone....is happy.

The purpose of life is to awaken the possibilities of life....loving, living, feeling, enjoying, connecting, knowing, laughing, dancing, singing. playing......being happy.....no matter what the circumstance because we learn we are infinite and eternal.

We awaken to our soul......we awaken to love.....to service.....to connection. Blessings.

Is this the Ram Dass forum? Did I just bear witness to someone's Timothy Leary flashback? I thought this was audio, not some peace and love new age electric koolaid acid fest... I suppose when you have nothing of substance to back up your opinions you can always try to dazzle with smoke, mirrors, and emptiness.

Is this the Ram Dass forum? Did I just bear witness to someone’s Timothy Leary flashback?

Like I told him he needs to change his bong water a little more regularly.

Cheers George

The ego defines and defends...attacks and brings down......Love appreciates, enjoys and is uplifting.  You pick.  There is nothing but the test of LOVE.  All the rest is just playthings.  How much love do you feel for me?  That is your test.  How much love do you feel for everyone?  That is your test.  It will always be the same.  You pass, you fail......it is up to you.  We all get there.....but we are all take our OWN time.  You have forever.....there is no judgement of how long it should take.  Enjoy the ride.  Judging and condemning will not get a "Pass"  Please try again.  You are the one who judges you.  This is what is so funny about all this.  We are projecting our own self "unlove".....or projecting our real self love.....or something in between......every second.  Since we create our reality out of the quality of our thoughts, words, feelings and actions.....then the more time you spend on positivity....then that reflects back on you.  The more time you spend judging and bringing down.....then that reflects back on you.  If you want to be happy.....then wish everyone happiness.  Let them have the expensive toys and worldly glory.....be happy for them......Celebrate everything and everyone.  It really works.....it really does.  You want happiness?  Then pass it on.

Who really cares about my or your opinions?  You know what Clint said about opinions......just more grist for the mill.  Do not take yourself so seriously.....there is really nothing here but us chickens.....cluck, cluck cluck.  Actually, I prefer ducks.....quack, quack, quack.

Smoke and mirrors is believing that you are smarter and better than someone else.  It is trying to make yourself big.....because inside....you feel worthless.  When you have real self esteem....when you have real self worth.....then you love everyone....because you know that they are just as beautiful as you and deserve to be happy.....Its called a Win/Win

It is what the essence of your parents wanted for you.  The trouble is, they were programmed to feel worthless by their parents.....so they did not really know how to fully love you.  This is on purpose.  If it were easy....then it would be no fun.  Coming out of the dark cave into the light can seem scary......but true lovers are fearless.....they keep walking into the light until they are bathed and immersed in it.  Be brave....walk to the Love....walk to the light.....you can do it.  You deserve it.  It is your destiny. 

My sweet ones....sending you all kisses and hugs.

Woah!!!!!!!!
https://youtu.be/YTY26k0CA0I?t=2

If anything that sort of frothing at the mouth will make you less customers

One of my supreme torture CDs is Annie Lennox Medusa. My jaw dropped as I played it all the way through. The V has unraveled all that was wrong with all the class D amps I've owned, including the EVS 1200, which I suspect is the Switching Speed

Although I've been using a 1"+ x 6 x 12ish heavy marble slab on top, when i tried to replace the springs with Mapleshade triple points and Herbies cups, I could hear the ringing. This morning I am going to remove the lid, as I did previously with both my EVS 1200 and Oppo 105

Ric says he is adding vibration deadening material to the Vs he's modding

hth

Ric, can you stay on topic instead of attempting to be a enlightening guru? You're distracting from the thread

ricevs,
My comments are intended as factual observations of my own, as well as comments on others' observations.  It just so happens that they are based on LOVE for the truth, as best as I can determine it.  I believe that people who are sincere and honest are also expressing true love.  But mere declarations of love from people who are not honest are really sham.  I'll take it as a compliment from you that you appreciate my honesty.

ricevs,
Back to my question--what specific sonic improvements does 150K input impedance show compared to 38K, using the same resistor brand/materials?  Just the facts, your observations, please.  Thanks.

You are amazing. You are loved and deserving

Is what you seek Jibber Jabber or something real?  

Do you have something uplifting to say?  Be of real service.  Turn us on!  How do you get better sound that gives you goosebumps?....that makes you cry.....that makes you want to love everyone.....that brings you deep peace......that fills you with joy?  Comments from afar are just your mind observing and needing attention (we are not our mind....the mind is a make wrong machine).  True immersion and connection to our soul comes from direct experience.  Share your experiences.....share your soul.  This is the truth we all seek.

Of course, some will say everything I write is jibber jabber.  We see (only) our own desires.......more and more I see only love and joy.

I now have back in the house my favorite preamp, the Benchmark LA4. I sold the Benchmark HPA4 (same as LA4 + headphone amp) thinking the CODA 07x alone will make me happy. I also sold  the HPA4 for more than I paid so not that big a deal in this change of plans.

The LA4 preamp has no noise, unlike the CODA 07x. It is not soft on the music compared to the 07x. It is also dead dead silent. So nice not to have to hear the hiss that was driving me batty on some quiet music with the 07x. If the CODA 07x did not sound so good I would have sold it long ago because I find it a real pain to use. However, at this time, I plan on keeping it since it sounds great on most music. Different than the LA4.

I am really interested in hearing the modified Voyager with the Benchmark LA4 preamp because I will be able to hear only the amp and not this extra sound from the preamp.

The Voyager and CODA #8 had hiss with the CODA 07x without music playing. As I test the LA4 now, it is almost silent with the CODA #8. I expect the same with the modified Voyager. The LA4 is dead silent with the Benchmark AHB2.

what specific sonic improvements does 150K input impedance show compared to 38K, using the same resistor brand/materials?

I can answer that. The benefit may be to your preamp, especially if you have a tube preamp. The higher input impedance will mean that the preamp is making less distortion which will translate to smoother sound with more detail.

HIgher impedance sounded better using a 50 ohm source with 10 ma of class A bias and two feet of hardwired at one end low capacitance cable.  Just more jibber jabber......the only thing that matters is that the final product sound good.  This is what people want to know.  These tiny details are held as super important..... usually by those invested in being experts.  There are so many factors that make an amp sound the way it does.  It is infinite....just like us.  

yyzs said...”So nice not to have to hear the hiss that was driving me batty on some quiet music with the 07x. If the CODA 07x did not sound so good I would have sold it long ago because I find it a real pain to use.”

I don’t know why you keep harping about the 07x being so noisy when myself and others have already stated many times that ours our dead quiet...I’m sure something is amiss with the preamp. To be fair to Coda and the forum members...please send it back for a checkup instead of repeating the same old thing over and over.

viber6

ricevs, Back to my question--what specific sonic improvements does 150K input impedance show compared to 38K, using the same resistor brand/materials? Just the facts, your observations, please. Thanks.

Viber as I thought, Ricevs answer to is was his own jibber jabber, with no facts as you asked.
And Ralph’s chime in that wasn’t asked for, (almost seems like an auto technical protection response for ricev) is a coy smoke screen to try to turn things around again with using the word "may introduced" and "tube" (high output impedance) as the active source.

This was the correct thing to say

"Changing the input impedance from 38k to 150k will do absolutely nothing if the "active" source has a "normal low’ish" (say <150ohm) output impedance that will drive both"

Both of these are guys bothers in arms protecting their own interests only, it obvious from a mile away.

George's first rule of behavior......must attack them and belittle them....then I will feel better about myself.  Trouble is, it does not work.  It just comes back to you......whatever you put out.  You put out negativity.....that is what you get.....you put out love......and that is what you get.  Pretty simple.

I love you, I love you, I love you.....guess what I get back?  Maybe not from you at this point in time.....but your soul loves the fact that I love and adore you.....it does. You're my baby......kisses and hugs.

This was the correct thing to say

"Changing the input impedance from 38k to 150k will do absolutely nothing if the "active" source has a "normal low’ish" (say <150ohm) output impedance that will drive both"

This is correct. But many tube preamps have a much higher output impedance; some might be 4,000 Ohms, some are even higher!

IME there's no point going over 150kOhms input impedance on an amp; it will cause it to be more sensitive to the interconnect cable capacitance and for that matter, induced noise in the cable.

IME there’s no point going over 150kOhms input impedance on an amp; it will cause it to be more sensitive to the interconnect cable capacitance and for that matter, induced noise in the cable.

Go back to what I said 4 days ago

georgehifi 09-11-2021 1:58pm
Changing the input impedance from 38k to 150k will do absolutely nothing if the active source has a "normal low’ish" (say <150ohm) output impedance that will drive both, making the input 150kohm, could very well "only serve" to have higher measured noise in the end.

And willy/nilly changing the input of an amp to something 4x higher "can" create offset and other problems, there was a reason it was 38k to start with.

@yyz I find it odd that that amount of hiss would be intrinsic to this unit.  I forget where you are with the bleed-through issue, but I have to say that a trip back to the manufacturer seems to be indicated.

And ricevs, you always resort back to the "peace, love, dope" card every time you get caught out/called out. Do you think members don’t see this?

@georgehifi +1

@georgehifi +1

@georgehifi  -3  Now we are back to zero.....he he.  A circle is a symbol of spirit......maybe your heart be filled with zero negativity.

atmasphere,
Thanks for your input on the impedance question.  I use the Rane ME 60 equalizer as a small gain stage with EQ.  This SS source has a low output impedance, I forgot, maybe 100 ohms.  The ratio of input impedance to output impedance would be 380 for 38K input, or 1500 for 150K input.  Both ratios are very high, way over the minimum 10, so I wonder whether there would be any audible or technical difference between 38K or 150K.

Off topic, I read some reviews and comments of your amps.  Not being able to afford them, I won't get a chance to hear them, although the powerhouse MA-3 would be the ultimate, I would opine that your amps are the only tube amps without the typical warm, euphonic classic tube sound.  Almost 40 years ago, I briefly owned the Futterman H3aa OTL amps, bought from Julius after waiting almost a year.  They had a certain clarity, but I didn't like the typical tube fullness in the lower freq, so I soon switched to SS amps.

ricevs,
You said, "HIgher impedance sounded better using a 50 ohm source with 10 ma of class A bias and two feet of hardwired at one end low capacitance cable."

Please, without wasting more time and space on love, etc., just say what you mean about "sounded better."  Life is too short to waste time.  Thanks.