You need to quantify your expectations for low bass response. One would think the Salons would be quite capable in reproducing satisfying bass, but that is subjective.
low bass response
My system, which is shown on my profile, does not seem to produce the low bass I would expect it to. I listen near field, and my room is 13'x30'x9'....in your experience, is this most likely due to my room and near field position?
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That room is far too reflective and those speakers have wide horizontal dispersion. A bad combo. The entertainment rack is enclosed in another very reflective piece of furniture. If you must put the speakers in this room:
Honestly not a fan of Pass here either. I mean, I don't like the sound but exactly because I find them too lean sounding. Other alternatives are just to use tone controls. Get a Schiit Loki and see if it does what you want to do. Remember that your listening levels matter. If you like to go in and listen at quiet volumes like I do a loudness control is essential.
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The frequency of the low E string on a bass guitar is 41Hz. The wavelength would be 837 cm or 8.37 m. You mention that you are listening in the near field. How far back are you sitting? Perhaps there just isn’t enough distance between your speaker and listening chair for that waveform to hit your ear. I agree with the poster above and try walking around. I found that two Rel T/i5 subs did the trick nicely in my room. Best of luck! Nice system BTW.
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Like @ozzy62 posted, you need to quantify what you mean by 'low bass response'. To do that, use a test tone to find out the bass extension you're currently getting and how even that response is. I've used the following audio test from Audiocheck in the past - link. Unfortunately, this test leaves out the vinyl playback chain.
You can try adjust the speaker settings / positioning as well as your listening position (if you can). For example, if the speaker sounds too bright, set the treble control to -0.5 dB or -1 dB. Adjust the bass control to 'Normal' if set to 'Contour' or 'Boundary'. Move the speakers closer to the back wall.
As @wlutke mentioned, try walking around the room while the test tone is playing to identify potential listening positions with the level of bass you're seeking.
If none of these seem to work, then it's time to consider adding a subwoofer or two. |
I would measure the room. Can just be test tones streamed and a simple DB meter. The only other thing I would add is distances between the front and side walls. You really need to be below 39” or over 7’ not to cancel out the low bass. This is due to the wave length at 1/4 of its length. Anyway try moving the speakers closer to the back and or side wall (driver less than 39” and less is better to not cancel low bass) and see what happens. Avoid the side wall and back all distances being equal. The revels have plenty of bass (I am a fan) but it is a little flat in the bass for my tastes. I personally run 2 subs regardless of the chosen speaker. I have yet to hear a speaker where high-passing the first octave (63hz and under) does not improve the sound.
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I'd say it's probably the listening position and/ or the speaker positioning within the room that is causing a perceived bass loss at your listening position. A quick way to find out if this is the case is to simply move your listening chair 1-2 feet forward and backwards from where it is now, in 1-foot increments to see if the bass improves at all. If so, then you know you're onto something. |
I would agree with Erik_squires the wooden cabinet in between the speakers looks like a problem. Toe in your speakers and treat first reflection points as well as back walls. GIK Acoustics provides a lot of excellent advice on their website. You shouldn’t need a sub for good bass.
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13 feet is very narrow. There isn't room for enough air around the speakers. Consider turning listening area 90 degrees and put speakers along one end of the longer wall. Not sure subs are the answer either in this very small compromised space. I would take the electronics out of the cupboard and put on conventional racks. Move the cupboard to the other end of the room away from the sound action. Use the emptied shelves for more LPs!! |
You have the real-estate so I would put the equipment on the floor. On thick dense boards. On spikes. I would place the speakes on fits from the side wall and thirds from the end wall. Quarters if you want mid bass. I would look at your receptacle s. I looked for bass in my new room I had nothing and I mean nothing changed out the industrial 20 a.p plugs for furutech plugs started with the ones at the amps and I got some bass. Did the ones at the side where the rest of the equipment is got a bunch more. I was shocked at the difference in bass as well as transparency. Guess your shelves us the receptacle s are causing the problem. Speaker placement on thirds the speakers need to be almost 11 feet out into the room on foths you need to be six feet out into the room give them room to breathe. A d yes treat first and second reflection points I like mainly diffusion with just a small amount of suction I tent to like the sound of a live room and dislike a dead over absorbed room you will need a bit of absorption though. Basically in my opinion you have to go find your bass you don't have to spend any huge amount of money you need to find it. You have good gear and nothing needed there just have to find the bass. Powercords maybe the problem as well. But I would look at that way way down the list.
Regards |
so, "hear" is a question I dont understand....I do understand that low frequency waves require space, but what I dont understand is what is invovled in hearing and measuring them....for instance, if you put on a 20hz test tone, and put the db meter close to the woofers, should you be able to measure there, or only at certain distnaces? |
Your speakers are not the problem, your room and it’s contents are IMO. If you like nearfield listening, try moving your speakers on the long wall, way away from that large cabinet. You will be able to move the speakers out from the wall and you can move your listening chair as close as you want to the speakers. |
You want in room frequency response. Measure at the listening position and at various other places in the room. You can use 1 meter directly in front of the woofer as a baseline measurement. The big furniture probably does not effect bass response, but it definitely impairs soundstage info. Though it does look nice! |
thx, again... the basic configuration CANNOT be changed...the cabinet contains all my equipment, except amp, speakers, and shunyata, and 1000+ LPs.....despite what is the "gospel" about things inbetween speakers, my system has wonderful soundstage, including depth.... my question about measuring bass maybe needs to be clearer....of course, the response at listening position is . in the end, what is important, what i wish to understand is . if one plays a 20 Hz test tone and places the db meter just in front of the woofers, should one get a reading, or does one need to be quite a bit further away to get any reading at all? I guess I am hungup on the "length of such a wave, and where, in relation to such a wave, does one hear, or in this case, feel it?
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@jw944ts , if you were to measure your situation, at the listening position you are probably rolling off below 60 Hz. Very few speakers can project bass well below 80 Hz particularly low frequency dynamic impulses. The frequency response quoted by manufacturers is very misleading. You do not sit one meter from your speakers and bass rolls off fast with distance. I use four 12" subs and it still is not enough. I am going to go to eight 12" drivers. In your situation two 12" subwoofers would be the minimum. If used correctly your system will become cleaner at volume and go a lot louder. The two hardest issues to deal with in HiFi reproduction are bass and imaging. With bass it is important to focus on what you feel, not what you hear. On the bright side it is much easier to remember what you feel than what anything sounds like. I use small jazz venues for comparison. |
You want to measure from your listening position. Bass response will vary from location to location in your room due to room modes.
If you've tried moving the speakers and/or your listening position and you know your gear's frequency response is flat down to 20 Hz, then you should probably consider adding a sub. |
You don’t need room for bass but you kind of do…, I mean headphones make good low bass with zero distance but you hear the direct wave. A 20hz wave is 54’ long and will bump into walls, bounce back and cancel itself out. Like two baseballs coming from different directions and hitting each other.
That is 8’ from the acoustic center of the 3 woofer and port combined. So your ceiling will be canceling the bass at 9’ but the side and back walls will not be. They all sum together. Anyway I would just move the speakers around a bit and see what happens. Closer to the walls for more low bass. Same goes for your seat. In a domestic home I personally think subs with DSP is the only way for flat low bass. |
very interesting post @james633 |
I was able to rumble loose objects on bookshelves with my old Salk Songtowers with their 5" woofers. When I sold them, the new owner (during the audition) asked where my subwoofers were. I don’t own subs. It’s the room. I’m sure you like the way your system sounds...but I hate to say this: your system/room combo just ’looks like it wouldn’t sound good’. No treatment (simple rug) and as an added insult, framed glass behind each speaker. The best thing you can do is simply try something. I do think most of us don’t know what we don’t know unless we experience the difference. I really thought for many years that my system sounded perfectly fine until I moved one my LP rack to the opposite side of the room and something immediately changed. The change was stunning and across the whole spectrum and made the bass sound beautiful, focused...and simply stand out like never before. Sure a subwoofer could help...but first start with putting a rug under your speakers and amoir. If you can, find get a rug that fits perfectly up the the floor/wall boundaries on all three sides and comes out a few feet in front of the speakers. Handmade rugs often come in unusual sizes and I’ve been able to find something to fit every situation. But just don’t put a cheap/thin rug there. It needs to be on a heavy felt underlayment. This is usually provided by a good rug retailer. These will make a difference. If you can only hear what you’re hearing. How would you know what would sound better? Try something simple first. Like a rug. Then try removing the framed glass and replacing it with art that has more diffusion/absorption qualities. It’s tough for us to remember that we’re actually listening to our rooms. If you can’t/won’t change the room, adjust tour expectations and get a subwoofer or two.
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And of course your room layout is not very good to be frank as pointed out by many. All I will say about that is take a look at my system and you will see how much I put in the value of equipment placement and room acoustics. Obviously you can afford good stuff, no reason not to spend some of it on room layout and acoustics. It's not as easy as buying expensive equipment but the results are much more satisfying. |
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@jw944ts You have a very good setup. Ravel go down to 23 Hz at 3db. So you should get good low frequency response. First you need to measure frequency response of your system from the listening position using Stereophile Test CD or similar with test tones. You can use radio Shack meter to measure frequency response. This should give a very good idea whether you are getting a good bass response or not. Room modes play a significant role in the low frequency reproduction. Also identify some source material that contains low frequency information. For example, I use Wishing Well track on One Night in Vienna by Peter Scott and Richard Schönher that has a drum in the middle of the sound stage that goes from start to finish. Another one is Wrecking Ball by Emmylou Harris. If your room is not shaking, then you have a low bass problem and may have to consider room treatment.
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IMO it's your room size, not your furniture nor your amp/speakers. Bass frequencies are "long" and need physical distance to travel without piling up and stacking up in a room. Your room is too small for the speakers you have. Treating the room won't work I don't think- you need a larger space. I own the same amp btw and it produces plenty of bottom end and has driven Focal 1038BE, Focal Sopra 2, Harbeth 30.2, Harbeth HLS5 Super and is currently driving Wilson Sabrina in a 13 x 22 sonically "tight" dedicated listening room. I think you need a larger room, or smaller speakers and ideally you'd need to get further back from the speakers. |
@cowan217 , interesting...my room is the same width and about 50% "longer".... |
So...I miss read your room dimensions ! I'd sit 2/3 of the way back from the speakers and if that doesn't help then I'd add a JL f113v2. I did about three months ago along with their CR1 crossover. You can dial in the set up in very very fine and flexible increments. Additionally Roon's DSP EQ is excellent and very flexible. You can simply roll up the 3050 hz region a few db leaving everything else untouched and see if it helps. And- it's about $8k cheaper than the JL sub and CR1. |
H ijw944ts, I have Salon 2's and love them. My room is not perfect either. In spite of the Salon's bass extension, my big room needed more air pressure for the low bass. I added two REL Carbon Specials. They completely cary the very low end, with their crossover very low and their volume very low. I use the high level inputs recommended by REL. Soundstage and imaging improved greatly, and without booming I can still feel the low bass in my chest. I run the Revel's full spectrum with no crossovers. I don't think tucked beside your Salon's would be ideal location...maybe on the sides pointed at an angle. The sub locations make a big difference to avoid them from booming or loading up in a corner. By the way, have you played with the two dials on the bottom rear of the Salon 2's? One is a boundary switch, compensating for closeness to the back wall. the other is a frequency extension or roll off of the highs. They make a difference. I also use Audionet amplification and it is amazing for clarity, speed , slam and resolution without fatigue. Ken |
The answer to great low bass is a good sub woofer. When I added a pair of REL subs to my Theil 3.7s, it made a big difference not only in base response but also increasing the sound stage width and depth. The RELs disappear. If you didn't see them, you wouldn't know they were there. Two REL S/5s or better will definitely do the trick. |
+1 on RELs as a good answer. True, the room is also critical, but many of us don’t have choices or simply have different priorities. Subs will help and RELs are fast and tuned for music. Also agree that multiple subs even out the bass response. I really like bass so I went one extra: I have the main speakers and 2 REL subs running directly from the preamp, and 2 additional, smaller subs running through a DBX 120X-DS. Yes a sound crapifier for sure, but I don’t hear it through these two small subs that just add a bit of lower rumble when it’s not there in the music. I will also run the synthesized bass through Magnepan DWM woofers for a bit more texture. The OP’s gear is waaaay too good to need that kind of help. But definitely, check out a couple of subs, or more. |
Hi, Your room is leaning towards Large and generally, loudspeakers, don't go so deep into the bass region. Many manufacturers will write amazing specs when it comes to frequency extension but remember that because it can reproduce low bass frequencies, it actually doesn't mean that they can do it loudly. In fact most loudspeakers only reach the low frequency response while rolling off.. so, much quieter than the rest of the flat line of the nice part of the speaker response.
That said, look nowhere else than REL. REL has a site where you indicate your loudspeaker, room size and select Stereo/HT or both. In return they tell you what is the adequate REL Sub. I could not find the Salon 2 on the list. That said, I advise you contact REL Support and ask them: What is the best REL for my Revel Salon 2 on a medium to large room in a stereo setup. They will let you know what REL matches nicely. I have a pair of Dynaudio Heritage Specials and they recommended the REL S/510. It was an amazing pairing with my speakers and I feel no regret. It was the best decision to get the bass I like. Also, look at room treatment... at least absorb the first reflection points and if you have access to a expert ask where to install diffusers. I have a rather smallish room and absorption was all I needed to improve a little. The room feeling quiet also helps with focusing on the music. |
