Looking for wider soundstage

Fletcher Thanks for your thoughts. I have been thinking about going that route from a previous poster. The brand he was using is Synergistic Research. I do like the idea of not having to treat the entire room with large panels. Thanks again. 

I use four Shakti Hallographs (two in the corners and two in the middle of the sidewalls-very critical).  I also use 34 SR HFTs (5 levels plus 2 speakers).  I don't know how much the side wall or ceiling ones affect the sound as I have ample side wall absorption paneling.  The front center HFT X is the most critical for adjusting treble and openess.  Next are the four sidewall HFT 2.0s to adjust the bass.  After that, less effect.  My speakers are not as open or focus the sound well without those Hallographs.  My room sounds larger and better with the HFTs.  I already have built in bass traps with a highly structured 16" thick walls and 4' X 1' 4 chamber activated carbon bass filters in the walls.  Once set, forget.  

@tweak1, I'm glad your happy with them. 

@mijostyn 

My maggies were 3.5Rs (not that that should matter to my point), and as for hearing/reading skills the EP 3.4s have 12" concentric drivers and more importantly, blew away the maggies

@tweak1 , I think you need your hearing checked. I do not think Magenpan made a 3.4. I remember 3.6's and 3.7's but not 3.4's. Emerald Physics makes a 3.4. It looks one step better than a computer loudspeaker, a big computer loudspeaker. I cringe to think of a 15 inch midrange driver. Keep saving. 

Secretguy It’s a roller coaster for sure. Haha. Bu also a lot of very thoughtful and useful information and I am grateful for all the feedback. 

OP...aren't you sorry you asked? LOL

@mijostyn

Simply not true.

I have owned Accoustat 2+2s which are very tall,

Magnepan 3.4s ~ 6ft, which is not that much taller then most floorstanders

but have owned Emerald Physics 3.4s for several years now, which are only ~ 41" and are amazing

@backdoor , as everything Italian the Sonus Faber speakers are very stylish in a good way. The craftsmanship is meticulous. I have not seen a Legacy speaker up close so I really should not comment but I tend not to like air motion transformers. 

In your situation, without a better room, it would not matter what speaker you are using. Even with 8 foot tall dipoles which are very directional you would still have problems. I just spent $3K removing a window from my listening room because it was f-ing things up and I use 8 foot tall dipoles.

@mijostyn

+1

I spent nearly forty years pursuing planar speakers. I loved the ethereal sound… but the power requirements and shortcomings in other aspects made me change directions. I listened to a lot of really amazing speakers, each with great characteristics… Wilson, Magico, B&W…. But Sonus Faber had an incredibly real organic sound to them.

I am now on my third pair of Sonus Faber… upgrading twice. I can’t even begin to explain you how happy I am with them. In particular, when paired with Audio Research equipment. The sound is so seductive, I could care less about more detail… although my system is incredibly detailed… it has such an emotional connection, it is hard to imagine a better system. Ever though I have heard systems of much greater cost, with greater imaging and slam.

Mijostyn thanks for heads up. Would those be better than my Legacy?  Seems they would be more like the Legacy than different. 

@tweak1 , While dipoles do solve some room issues as dynamic speaker they cause more trouble than good. Dipoles need to be tall panels either planar magnetics or electrostatic. The point is that you need the speaker to radiate in the same pattern throughout the frequency range or you get into all sorts of amplitude variations with distance. 

@backdoor , for dynamic loudspeakers worth the money I suggest Sonus Faber. 

Tweak1 I have considered that. Like the Spatial Audios. Thanks for suggesting. 

Open Baffle speakers for the win

Wyoboy thanks for the suggestions. I am going through the process of figuring out what will work best if I continue using this room vs trying to find another place for the 2 channel stuff and just using this room for HT. I totally agree that my current situation is about as bad as it could be as many have let me know. Maybe eventually I can post pictures of a better configuration for the 2 channel listening environment. Thanks again. 

OP--i echo what others have said, particularly @designsfx and @mijostyn . While we can't see most of the side walls you said the speakers are on the long (22') wall instead of the short (17') wall where they should be.  @designsfx asked about putting them on the TV wall but i would ask about the left wall where your big sofa is--what does that wall look like?  Let me guess--there's a window in the middle of it?  Not a worry, especially if there are symmetrical corners as @mijostyn said.  So can you rotate the room 90 degrees counterclockwise?  HT could go on wall where system is currently.  Someone else mentioned that you have reflection off the TV from right speaker and absorption from sofa on left speaker--that will seriously compromise soundstage.  Have you considered consolidating your HT and system to be together on the same wall?  One set of speakers instead of two (extra speakers in the room also compromises acoustics).  You have many issues, all with setup IMO, not your equipment.  Get Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound"--full of very useful information pertinent to  your situation--it focuses almost completely on setup, including difficult rooms.  Best of luck--you have a great system and your components don't need to be changed

Your welcome!!!!

Thanks motorcyclphil 

About the HFT's the store is called[ Highend-Electronics] they are located in the high desert in S. Ca.

Not that good with a PC but here is their site SYNERGISTICRESEARCH.COM, I have been getting Synergistic products from Highland Audio in CA. The more I listen with the HFT's the more impressed with them, also at Highland the reviews that they show are real, I have posted on reviews and the do show up. With these installed you are going to want to listen to everything that you have just listen to to have to hear the improvements.

motorcy can you send me a link please. Thanks. 

I have had good luck with Synergistic products because I have actually used them, so about a week ago I bought a 5 pack of their HFT [high frequency transducers] but those little guys opened up the sound stage more than the wide sound stage I had before. for years I have been using their Basic Art System[ not the expensive one] one of the cups had fallen off the wall and I didn't realize it but I couldn't figure out why sound stage had collapsed and when I put the cup back up all was good again. In my 18x25ft. room the Basic ART [d/c] the only sound treatment I used, on my speaker site I see so many using all sorts of diffusers and traps,I tried a trap once and thought it sounded good but  I decided to give the ART a try and got rid of the traps, huge improvement. I bought the HFT because on the front wall like so many others that I was throwing a heavy blanket over it which helped mostly with a depth and a few other things but it's a pain in the butt doing that every time, the HFT's apply to front wall opened up the stage even more and detail and dynamics are up too, no more blanket needed, not sure if removing the blanket or if it's the HFT's but the sound level is up from the normal level or the HFT's are creating a fuller sound stage but whatever I have to lower the volume a few notches,I have Magnepan 20.1's and the sound wave on the front wall is less so I might be hearing a more direct sound from my speakers. HFT'S are a money back guarantee and will cost a lot less then what I have seen people doing to their rooms.It's worth a try and if you don't like them send them back, if you get the results that I got you will be keep them. I have what they call level-one which treats the front wall only Level-two 5 more HFT's treat the sidewalls which I might be doing doing down the road.

So you have your 2-channel music system and your HT system shoehorned into the same room?

As others will have observed, the speakers are too close together, the left speaker is too close to the sofa, and both speakers are too close to the wall behind them.

Your room seems to be pretty large; what's happening at the other end that is not shown in the pics?

A complete reorganization of components and furniture is the first step, even before you start experimenting with room treatments.

You probably know this, since you referred to treatments, but the soundstage often depends on keeping out confusing reflections between speakers and ears. Your TV is reflecting and your couch is absorbing. If you can put a first reflection absorber on the right (facing the system) you might find an interesting change. Use the mirror test and find the first reflection point, and during listening, put a portable panel -- there. Hide it away when you're not listening. A reasonable WAF compromise. Enjoy!

You will require perfect symmetry in your listening room.  If that cannot be obtained, the first reflected surfaces will require insulation. 

If the tarps help look into something durable and easily foldable like this.

I've been using tarps like these for years (mainly to cover windows during heat spells).

DeKay

sudnh I gave your suggestion a try and I did get a bit better sounstaging. I have a few other things to try but it has become clear that room treatment is probably going to be the best thing I can do. Or find a whole new room as mijostyn suggested. Thank you. 

@backdoor , It is, but I have no idea what you will accept as reasonable performance. You might be perfectly happy with a system I would deem sub par. But you have spent a lot of money already so my guess is it is important to you. If it is imaging you want the first thing you have to provide your system is a symmetrical environment. Stereo is all about symmetry. If one channel differs from the other in any way the image is chipped away at depending on the severity of the infractions and in the situation I see in your picture they are legion. 

In a residential situation with the size rooms we normally have you want a flat front wall and two clean corners That extend for at least 6 feet in front of the speakers This should be on the short wall of the room. Both speakers see a corner and the listening position will be somewhere in the middle of the room away from the back wall. If you use the long wall the listening position will be up against the opposite long wall which will really create amplitude problems. With the type of speakers you have you will need sound absorption on the front wall, side walls and ceiling. The speakers need to see an exact mirror image environment. From there if you want SOTA performance it takes a little digital signal processing which scares the h-ll out of the analog crowd. Suites me. It keeps the price of digital processors down. 

I only mean to help and do not want to see you wasting money chasing a faulty situation that might be able to improve a little but still will never approach the performance it should, the performance you expect. 

If you have planar ribbon tweeter your going have a reduced sound stage domes they are just wider dispersion.  As for as capacitor go Solen are bottom of the poly barrel. If you have a tube preamp you will have a wider sound stage. My system is all FETs and MOSFETs and provides a sound little more tube like as related to sound stage. Caps like TRT, Dyna Cap, and other metal foil polypropylene have a much improved dielectric absorption but expensive.

I have this Golden Ear Center speaker it’s very clear but 30 degrees it’s output is very low. So borrow some speaker with out Ribbons and see if that does not help your imagining.

A sure way to increase your soundstage in an untreated room is to hang a soft blanket or even a sheet on the wall behind your speakers. Give this a try. If you hear a difference (you will) you can try the side walls at around the 90 deg angle between your seating position and speakers. 
 

hopefully you have a dedicated space and can do this. 
Give it a try and would like to hear back on your experience. 

mamba like spatial audio for example?

dekay I’ll give that a shot. 
 

mijostyn that is bad news. 

@backdoor , I had a look at your pictures and I hate to bring you bad news but even with digital signal processing you are never going to get a decent image with your system as it is set up. It breaks almost every tenant you can imagine. It is fine for everyone's background music pleasure but that is about it. Your system needs a home that is more in keeping with it's intent. No amount of room treatment and expense is going to change this. Your next mission is to find a more appropriate home for it either in your house or eventually another if it is that important to you. 

Open baffle speakers provide the greatest soundstage. Simple is best. 

I would try draping a light plastic painters sheet/tarp over the sofa to the left and also over the HT speaker to the right (maybe both of the HT speakers).

Both the sofa and the drivers in the HT speakers are absorbing sound.

DeKay

designsfx I would very much appreciate your thoughts on speaker placement dimensions if I were to move them to the opposite side of the room. Thank you. 

Build the Linkwitz LX521 system and you'll have your "forever loudspeaker."   If you can't do the woodworking, then go to a local cabinet maker to have them make it up for you.  It's a simple kit.  The driver kit, pla ns, and necessary active crossover are about $3000.

The San Francisco Audiophile Society had a listening session with the LX521 last year which was well attended.  More than one person in attendance decided right then and there to make the move to the LX521.

Madisound also sells flatpak cabinet kits too, but they're about $1000.   You might very well be able to find a local cabinet maker who could knock them out for you at that price.

The thing which will most determine your eventual system price will be your choice of amplification.  You could fabricate your own multi-channel amp from Class D modules you get from Parts-Express, or you could source the needed 10 channels in some other way.  There are a lot of good "zone" amps on the used market.

@backdoor 

I believe it would help as it will change the relationship between your speakers and the room boundaries. It's easy enough to test without moving everything by temping in longer speaker wire and just moving the speakers. If it seems to improve then you can plan a more detailed placement. If you'd like to try it I can pm you starting placement dimensions.

designsfx I have thought about that. The logistics of the room as it’s setup for tv viewing would make that move difficult. I would really like to try that though. I could switch sides with the listening spot and the electronic/speakers. That would put a curtain behind the rack and speakers. Would that be better than current setup?

@ backdoor-

I know it may seem counter intuitive but have you considered rotating the "audio" components of your system to the shorter wall where the display is currently located? (Assuming that I'm understanding the dimensions you provided). 

In my opinion,from my experience, if you’re going to have a rack in the center, pull the speakers well out in front of the rack.  I have a much smaller room,with rack in the center.  I have achieved a wonderful soundstage. Can it be better?  I think there is always room for improvement.   
  If your wife has an issue with leaving the speakers out,move them back when not doing any critical listening.  Enjoy the journey. 

Thanks for those recent suggestions. I will try them. 

I have the same issue with the same cause.

Speakers do need space around them. My left speaker is in a corner and my soundstage is skewed to the right. You might try moving that couch if possible. But definitely move both speakers more not the room.

And a huge upgrade is to install Townshend Seismic Podiums under your speakers. The amazing amount of better performance they give will fill in the soundstage and offer a bigger improvement to your system than anything!

Try for a smaller triangle and remember, the triangle is just a starting place. My speakers are 8’ apart, center to center and my listening position is about 9’ from the speakers. Also, see what you can do about the couch. Most speakers need room all around them and close to the same amount for both.

BTW, I have the same doorway as you do, but I don’t have a door, so it’s sometimes very annoying. I bought one of those adjustable room dividers and hang a comforter on it when I want to be picky.

All the best.

JD

The speakers are too close to each other, The preamp I know and heard that produce wide or huge soundstage are Backert Tube preamps, I think  the Rhumba  is the one I heard from a friend system.

More here. 

The Pros: Acoustic Sciences Corporation

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@backdoor OP there is great information here and as many say here, Google is your friend. http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

You need to be systematic with moving the speakers around or you’ll drive yourself crazy.

Go to YouTube and search on New Record Day LOTS.  He walks you through a method that’s simple and works.  Then you can tweak with room treatment and cables.

 I have an Yggy and integrated tube amp, open baffle speakers and I have a really big ss and great imaging.

What exactly do you mean by “soundstage”?  Do you expect the image to spread out past the outer edges of the speakers?  That can happen, but in my experience, that is a product of the recording. I’m thinking you just want your hifi to sound better than it does to your ear. Legacy makes good speakers, but sometimes even excellent speakers just don’t work in someone’s room and, without redoing everything, there’s nothing that can be done except change the speakers until you find something better. You didn’t mention your speaker cables, but sometimes a speaker cable can make a transformative difference and sometimes nothing. See if you can borrow something from a dealer or a friend and try it out. I know Kubala and Synergystic have a 30 day money back and I’m sure others do as well. It may be worth a try. If you happen to live in NY, I may have something for you to try. 

You have a very plush carpet OP. Looking at your setup I do wonder if you might benefit from better isolation.

Are you using any footers under your equipment?

If not I heartily reccomend black ravioli big and small pads. 

is that a little subwoofer you have right next to the rack ?