Looking for wider soundstage

Nice system. You might add some photos of your system under your UserID… lots of time these questions end can be helped by setup.

For instance, my system’s soundstage was enormously improved by adding absorption behind and toe in adjustment of my speakers. You can see photos of my system under my ID.

I will get a pic posted. 

I'm sure you know but toeing in speakers usually gives you a deeper soundstage while firing them straight ahead should yield a wider soundstage but this also depends on other factors. 

It's going to be a setup issue you got the gear. Waiting on pictures.

Bear with me. Having trouble posting a pic either in discussion or on profile page. Sheesh. 

Ook not getting pic thing so will describe. Room is 22x17x8. Speakers are along the 22’ wall. Seating position is 15’ from speakers which are 13’ apart. There is a window behind listening position with a curtain. Floor is thickly carpeted. Behind speakers is drywall wall. There is no extra sound enhancing furniture in the room. That’s really about it. I will post a pic when I can but hoping the description will help. Thanks. 

Well I got one pic posted in my profile. Not great. Sorry. I think I can get a wider one later. 

Looking at photo. Again nice system.

I would have to say your setup is the limiting factor

13’ is too big a triangle… typically you would want 6 - 9’ between the speakers and the listening location. So an equilateral triangle. Also having your equipment in between your speakers and no absorbent material behind your system is probably a problem.

Honestly, it is not uncommon that systems are limited when put in common areas. If you can’t modify your setup. Is it possible to use a smaller dedicated place wher you can put tube traps and wall hangings where you want? If you can do what is needed you can do some amazing things.

More photos more better.

Added a couple more pics. Also from middle of left speaker to middle of right speaker it is about 7’ not 13. Listening position is about 8.5’. Not sure if I can get my own room or not. Would love to though. I might be able to put up something temporary behind speakers and behind electronics though. Is speaker height high enough or does it need to go higher? Thanks. 

Yeah, I know it's tough getting a truly optimal placement for a system. I feel for ya. I mean, when somebody wanders into the kitchen in the middle of the night for that bowl of Rice Crispies, you don't want them going nose-to-nose with a soft-dome tweeter.

The pictures help. I'll just throw out what I see and you can just consider what I am suggesting. What I would do is pull the speakers out into the room a foot or two more and add some toe-in. The tall equipment rack is not helping and the sofa is killing some needed reflections. I know it's a living space but acoustics don't care about that. Happy tuning.

Edcyn yeah wife just hates when that happens. 
 

russ69 thanks for the suggestion. I have actually moved the speakers out about 2 feet total from the wall. I will try 4 feet. I also have had them towed in as well as out but the toe in was probably only 15 to 20 degrees. I will try several different angles after I move them out further from the back wall. 

I also have an option of trading places with my 6 foot sofa that I listen from with the longer 9 foot one that is blocking reflections. Is that an insignificant change or would that help out?

The photos help… what about your sitting position? It all matters.

I took pics from listening position. I think my listening position is as good as I can do. 

I would switch amp the SS amp will control the bass better and the tube on top will have a bigger soundstage and mids

I have an Aurender N10 changing my DAC for Aesthetix Pandora

Ridiculous, it is all setup and lack of treatments in the room. Nothing to do with tubes, ss, or the like. I have a modern tube integrated and ss integrated and in my room there is a slight difference from ss to tube.

One way to make changes is to strip out the room, put your gear on the floor and find the speaker placement that works the best. Then start stacking your system and see if it has an impact, then start putting furniture where it needs to go and asses that impact. Soon you'll have a handle on what all the effects are and what you can live with. It's a good thing to do when your SO is on a trip out of town, lol.

I would switch amp the SS amp will control the bass better and the tube on top will have a bigger soundstage and mids

He is using the SS on the bottom and the tubes on top.

Perhaps try uploading images to Imgur and then link the photo.

Or, if you are having trouble, just swallow your pride and ask your children to help.

Try this simple experiment for reference. Cover the TV located to the right with a thick blanket or blankets, shut the door behind the right speaker and see if you hear    a different. Toe in so the speakers are pointing directly at the main listening position.

Backdoor, I like the furry center speaker.

arion I will give that a shot. 
 

fertguy haha. Close. 

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I’ve been able to try a few and will try the rest tomorrow. Thanks again. You have been most helpful. 

What many people don’t do ,but I am currently is having the speakers at say 2 ft from each wall and have the drivers going like a X pattern this 

gives a bigger spread and just slowly turn in towards center a few inches at a time as needed.  In my modded Dynaudio speakers I just wanted to mention  after I rebuilt the Xovers that too gave it muchbetter imaging ,depth

of field and soundstaging , legacy forsure use average parts 

at. Best in the Xover ,as do most under $10 k Solen is a mfg favorite

and would find upgrading the Xovers a Big improvement across the board.

I would definitely recommend Bass Traps in corners behind speakers and at first reflection points. Also toe in speakers. Made a big improvement for me.

you have a great system should sound great.

Greetings from Germany.

In my setup voices were nailed to the center between speakers.

speakers already slightly turned in 

towards sweet spot at that time.

then I vertically turned them in as well. Tweeter towards me.

This was a hell of a change into much wider voice image.

try it and report back what happens.

best

My two cents—I had your amp, and things definitely improved when I upgraded to the Halo

You have a very plush carpet OP. Looking at your setup I do wonder if you might benefit from better isolation.

Are you using any footers under your equipment?

If not I heartily reccomend black ravioli big and small pads. 

is that a little subwoofer you have right next to the rack ? 

What exactly do you mean by “soundstage”?  Do you expect the image to spread out past the outer edges of the speakers?  That can happen, but in my experience, that is a product of the recording. I’m thinking you just want your hifi to sound better than it does to your ear. Legacy makes good speakers, but sometimes even excellent speakers just don’t work in someone’s room and, without redoing everything, there’s nothing that can be done except change the speakers until you find something better. You didn’t mention your speaker cables, but sometimes a speaker cable can make a transformative difference and sometimes nothing. See if you can borrow something from a dealer or a friend and try it out. I know Kubala and Synergystic have a 30 day money back and I’m sure others do as well. It may be worth a try. If you happen to live in NY, I may have something for you to try. 

You need to be systematic with moving the speakers around or you’ll drive yourself crazy.

Go to YouTube and search on New Record Day LOTS.  He walks you through a method that’s simple and works.  Then you can tweak with room treatment and cables.

 I have an Yggy and integrated tube amp, open baffle speakers and I have a really big ss and great imaging.

@backdoor OP there is great information here and as many say here, Google is your friend. http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

More here. 

The Pros: Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Free advice & discussion:
https://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
https://www.acousticfields.com/acoustics-forum/
https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/bbs.html

The speakers are too close to each other, The preamp I know and heard that produce wide or huge soundstage are Backert Tube preamps, I think  the Rhumba  is the one I heard from a friend system.

Try for a smaller triangle and remember, the triangle is just a starting place. My speakers are 8’ apart, center to center and my listening position is about 9’ from the speakers. Also, see what you can do about the couch. Most speakers need room all around them and close to the same amount for both.

BTW, I have the same doorway as you do, but I don’t have a door, so it’s sometimes very annoying. I bought one of those adjustable room dividers and hang a comforter on it when I want to be picky.

All the best.

JD

I have the same issue with the same cause.

Speakers do need space around them. My left speaker is in a corner and my soundstage is skewed to the right. You might try moving that couch if possible. But definitely move both speakers more not the room.

And a huge upgrade is to install Townshend Seismic Podiums under your speakers. The amazing amount of better performance they give will fill in the soundstage and offer a bigger improvement to your system than anything!

Thanks for those recent suggestions. I will try them. 

In my opinion,from my experience, if you’re going to have a rack in the center, pull the speakers well out in front of the rack.  I have a much smaller room,with rack in the center.  I have achieved a wonderful soundstage. Can it be better?  I think there is always room for improvement.   
  If your wife has an issue with leaving the speakers out,move them back when not doing any critical listening.  Enjoy the journey. 

@ backdoor-

I know it may seem counter intuitive but have you considered rotating the "audio" components of your system to the shorter wall where the display is currently located? (Assuming that I'm understanding the dimensions you provided). 

designsfx I have thought about that. The logistics of the room as it’s setup for tv viewing would make that move difficult. I would really like to try that though. I could switch sides with the listening spot and the electronic/speakers. That would put a curtain behind the rack and speakers. Would that be better than current setup?

@backdoor 

I believe it would help as it will change the relationship between your speakers and the room boundaries. It's easy enough to test without moving everything by temping in longer speaker wire and just moving the speakers. If it seems to improve then you can plan a more detailed placement. If you'd like to try it I can pm you starting placement dimensions.

Build the Linkwitz LX521 system and you'll have your "forever loudspeaker."   If you can't do the woodworking, then go to a local cabinet maker to have them make it up for you.  It's a simple kit.  The driver kit, pla ns, and necessary active crossover are about $3000.

The San Francisco Audiophile Society had a listening session with the LX521 last year which was well attended.  More than one person in attendance decided right then and there to make the move to the LX521.

Madisound also sells flatpak cabinet kits too, but they're about $1000.   You might very well be able to find a local cabinet maker who could knock them out for you at that price.

The thing which will most determine your eventual system price will be your choice of amplification.  You could fabricate your own multi-channel amp from Class D modules you get from Parts-Express, or you could source the needed 10 channels in some other way.  There are a lot of good "zone" amps on the used market.

designsfx I would very much appreciate your thoughts on speaker placement dimensions if I were to move them to the opposite side of the room. Thank you. 

I would try draping a light plastic painters sheet/tarp over the sofa to the left and also over the HT speaker to the right (maybe both of the HT speakers).

Both the sofa and the drivers in the HT speakers are absorbing sound.

DeKay

Open baffle speakers provide the greatest soundstage. Simple is best. 

@backdoor , I had a look at your pictures and I hate to bring you bad news but even with digital signal processing you are never going to get a decent image with your system as it is set up. It breaks almost every tenant you can imagine. It is fine for everyone's background music pleasure but that is about it. Your system needs a home that is more in keeping with it's intent. No amount of room treatment and expense is going to change this. Your next mission is to find a more appropriate home for it either in your house or eventually another if it is that important to you. 

dekay I’ll give that a shot. 
 

mijostyn that is bad news. 

mamba like spatial audio for example?

A sure way to increase your soundstage in an untreated room is to hang a soft blanket or even a sheet on the wall behind your speakers. Give this a try. If you hear a difference (you will) you can try the side walls at around the 90 deg angle between your seating position and speakers. 
 

hopefully you have a dedicated space and can do this. 
Give it a try and would like to hear back on your experience. 

If you have planar ribbon tweeter your going have a reduced sound stage domes they are just wider dispersion.  As for as capacitor go Solen are bottom of the poly barrel. If you have a tube preamp you will have a wider sound stage. My system is all FETs and MOSFETs and provides a sound little more tube like as related to sound stage. Caps like TRT, Dyna Cap, and other metal foil polypropylene have a much improved dielectric absorption but expensive.

I have this Golden Ear Center speaker it’s very clear but 30 degrees it’s output is very low. So borrow some speaker with out Ribbons and see if that does not help your imagining.