Hello all, I am a first time post-er, so pardon me if I am clumsy with this venue. I live in a small town on an island in SE Alaska, and do not have immediate access to anywhere locally that sells hifi equipment besides Walmart. So after reading complimentary reviews, I ordered from USA Tube Audio a pair of JBL 4367 speakers, ..a two way design with a woofer and a horn. I have about 20 hours on the speakers, driving them with a Primare I35 Integrated Amplifier and a perceived higher end Primare CD player., and for an alternate music source, I use Music Choice from my cable box. I also have a 10 band graphic EQ to tailor the sound to my liking. The issue I bought when I paid for the speakers is a loudly blaring shoutiness in the range of frequencies of the human voice. It can be loud and overpowering even with EQ attenuating the frequencies between 500 and 4khz. I called the dealer who I bought them from for advice..he told me the amp and cd player are junk, ($6000 junk) and the only way to fix the shoutiness was to buy tube equipment. On some recordings, the speakers sound wonderful, but on some, it makes me question whether or not they're worth keeping. The room in the apt I have them in is about 15x18 with low ceilings. Does anyone have any practical suggestions or ideas on how to remedy or at least partially correct this issue? Thank you for reading.
A quote from the Measurements section of a Professional review on your speakers" There is a very mild upper treble reduction beyond 13 kHz but this is typical for most speakers in room. The entire midrange to lower treble area is exceptionally flat and well behaved. The bass region shows a gentle lift from room gain at 150 Hz down to almost 30 Hz where it begins to gradually roll of"..... I suspect any shoutiness is either room acoustics/positioning or simply Class D being highly exposed by very sensitive speakers...How about cables,it's possible something in the cable chain doesn't like the combination of electronics & speakers...The fact that it's NOT every song that has shoutiness might also suggest you are simply hearing what is on the recording & those specific recordings are mixed hot..Can you compare between a CD & a streaming feed the same songs?
This may be a situation where the speakers are exciting the walls in your low ceiling apartment, in other words its the room acoustics doing the shouting. You could check this by setting the system up outdoors or in another room and compare.
OC703 cuts easily with a knife, and is so light weight you can pin or staple to the walls. Bevel the edges so it fits nice and neat, then wrap with fabric or spray paint so it looks better.
I had a similar problem in my room where certain vocals would excite this region and be unnaturally loud. As I recall Holly Cole was good at this, with certain vowels and certain notes held a while being the worst. This simple trick was the end of that.
Being where you are if you can’t find OC703 and don’t want to order a lot be aware any similar damping material will work so long as its placed in the corners like in my room. This works on the principle the walls and ceiling act like a horn that amplifies any sound coming from the corners. So eliminate any sound coming from the corners and you greatly reduce the problem without using a great deal of damping material, which would also solve the problem but make your room way too dead in the process.
I can help you. Please pack up your JBL 4367s and send them to me. Problem solved.
But seriously, these are about the least "shouty" horns you will ever hear. I agree with what freedivr and squeak_king_77 suggested.
If it were me (please re-read my first paragraph) I would never mate these speakers to Class D amplification. I would use tubes but there I have heard several solid state amps sound great w/ JBL horns. I'm thinking Luxman or Accuphase Class A or even McIntosh if you like the mac sound. I once heard a pair of JBL 4430s played through a rebuilt/ upgraded Moscode 600. Sounded great.
If you are handy at all with a soldering iron, I would change out the parts in the crossover to higher quality. Ask the dealer or JBL directly for the crossover diagram/schematic. Should be pretty easy to find cap and inductor values. Seems I’ve read an internet article or two on that specific upgrade. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-4367-inside-photos-video.2293/page-2
If you can't correct the issue with EQ, the speakers are just not your taste or don't work with your room. This is a common problem when you buy off the web without audition. Hopefully you can return them. If you have to pay shipping and a restocking fee, it's better than trying to live with speakers you don't like. It's happened to me too.
I do not know Primare. My experience, though, is that this speaker is sensitive to electronics and cables. They are not shouty in the sense of some other horn models and do not have particular room placement quirks.
They do require a lot power. I have had a VAC phi 160, Hegel h160 and a Classe 70 hooked up to them. None could marry the woofer to horn.The ML 532H was a huge improvement in cohesion making the horn section relatively less prominent, even in comparison to the 150 watt Hegel. While the (tube) VAC is pretty sounding, it is not appropriate for the 4367.
It is great to try free or inexpensive experiments first. My guess is that they need new gear to know if they will work for you. May be safer to return to sell them, though.
As for another electronics suggestion, JBL used to use Mark Levinson to demo their higher end speakers. Finally, you don't mention cables; I would recommend you consider Transparent or MIT as a possible match. Good luck.
As a horn user ( Klipsch Lascala ) / tweaker/ modifier, I do not feel it is the Primare equipment, based on reading several reviews of the gear. Horns are more directional, and with each pair, the listening distance between them and the listener is very critical. Listening too close to the horn, you hear the inside of the horn. The horn of the JBL 4367 is a polycarbonate design, and does create resonance ( they all do ), and can benefit with a Dynamat treatment, mentioned above by twoleftears ( not if you are returning them ). Horns are ruthlessly revealing of details, ime, and you will hear weaknesses of the recordings ( compression, eq., etc. ). Room acoustics, always helps the speaker / listener interaction. Of course, horns, are not for everyone. Just my feedback. Enjoy ! and stay safe. Always, MrD.
Deckhand, when you get done reading all the other things it cannot be I sure hope you will try the corner tunes. It will ameliorate, and maybe even totally eliminate, your problem.
Wow! Deckhand you have two of the finest studio monitors made by JBL. The “shoutiness” you mention is a desirable quality in many studio monitors and translateS to being a bit “forward”.
Yes, work toward tuning your room and then Live with the speakers for a while before doing anything hasty.... you may find you love them as you adjust to their sound!
You might be getting bounce from the floor.....if you don't have carpets try some rugs in front of the speakers at various distances (you should use natural fiber..thin nylon probably wont do the trick)
Horns have an 'in your face' quality with some recordings. Most come off as being a tad 'bright' (to use an overused comment), but there are those that will never respond to room treatment...or even eq, which just renders it 'meh' and still in yer face....Tube amps have a tendency to 'soften' horns; imho, it seems to spring from the two technologies 'growing up' together.... Live with 'em for awhile, break them and you in together. Do the simple stuff (placement, carpet, wall/ceiling treats, etc.) 1st. The 4367s' can be bi-amped....score a used/decent tube amp for the horns. They're naturally efficient, so the amp doesn't have to be able to crack concrete, just to tame the savage horn....;)
Beats sending them back if they'll let you, if you like them for the most part....
Don’t blame the speakers. They produce what ever your gear is capable of. It took me 11 amps to test before I was happy with the sound. At the end pair of the Thresholds S500 what did the trick and than I realize that preamp does make big difference how the whole system sounds. I listen to big range of the music from classical reggae to slam death metal and punk rock, said that I noticed that recordings are the biggest problem. Some albums just sounds bad, really bad. So in my experience when you know your system sounds great on one recording and bad on the others, blame recording and look for remastered recording or just get use to the fact that it just sounds bad. So if I were you the first thing I would do is to get the eq out of the system and start listening the real recording. EQ what it does just throw in to the sound distortions and noises. My 2 cents
Re-mastered Recordings are usually WORSE than the Original pressing for your information. Thats why CD's made in the 1980's go for a premium over whats currently "In print" in most cases.
You might also want to play with speaker height. Test different height stands and move them around the room. Made a big difference with my klipsch forte iii.
You are at a disadvantage living where you live. It is important to audition speakers before you purchase them. You will not believe the sound difference. Your ears will tell you what you like. I would imagine this group might have some more suggestions for you to pursue. It is unfortunate you didn't reach out to this group before you purchased them because they could have helped you purchased the right matching gear.
I think we have all made some mistakes at the beginning so don't beat yourself up. You are a beginner and I know you will enjoy the audiophile journey. I don't know as much as the group and it is always interesting to read the discussions.
Deckhand, you might try listening from fairly far off-axis, like 20-25 degrees. I suggest moving the speakers a bit further apart than normal and toeing them in severely, like 45 degrees and maybe even more, such that their axes criss-cross well in front of the listening position. This will reduce the relative loudness of the horns in the first-arrival sound, increase the sweet spot width, and may increase the sense of immersion in the acoustic space of the recording.
The unusually well-behaved off-axis response of the 4367’s big horn makes this cross-firing configuration feasible. Its pattern width is just right, and I'm pretty sure it’s a constant-directivity horn (or darn close thereto) in which case the off-axis response is very similar to the on-axis response, but not as loud.
As others have also said, there is unfortunately a huge variation in the quality of recordings, but a well tuned room along with your eq. should help mitigate that to some extent
1st things first - beautiful speaker - good choice!
2nd - 20 hours is nothing. these speakers are notoriously difficult to loosen up. 500 hours of use before they settle down for ever. Some have said they don't even sound that great til they've worn in a bit. 20 hours is effectively brand new so don't judge them yet.
3rd - I have a SPEC Class D amp running JBLs (4344) (highs only). Beautiful. So don't listen to people including your dealer re: that. I haven't heard Primare Amp but I doubt that is the issue.
4th - people mentioned acoustics. listen to those people.
You own one of the smoother horn speakers out there. You have a 10 band EQ. You have good electronics.
You many simply not like horns.
You can piss away money on a power conditioner, but that isn't going to do anything.
You can do SOME room treatments, but horns do take some of the room out of it as they are more directional. Maybe consider some absorption panels behind you, or at the 2nd reflection point actually.
first of all the jbl 4367 are ruthlessly accurate and revealing of source gear however more then that they are just straight up neutral. it is highly likely that you are simply not accustomed to the sharpness in treble which can be accounted for as in increase of midrange energy due to the speakers design. as I said, it is a very flat speaker. it is highly possible your previous speakers had a dip of several dB. most speakers designed today have this. the JBL 4367 do not.
read the user manual how to set them up. 3 feet into the room. 11 feet apart. will give them 2 feet of space from side walls. toe them in to your listening position. ideally sit 11-13 feet away. toe them in more if you sit closer. experiment with toe in and distance from the speaker. personally I like triangle setup, sit equal distance from the speaker. measure length from center of speaker to center of speaker. like I said, 11 feet apart if you set them on the 15 foot side of your room.
this is the best advice youre going to get in the thread. your gear has nothing to do with how the sound you are hearing, its the function of the speaker with your room, and the fact they are much more accurate and revealing then your previous gear (assuming this but most likely true)
good luck and do not under estimate the improvement in sound you can get with proper setup.
To all who responded, thank you for all the great ideas and suggestions.It is really helpful and humbling. There are so many who've taken their time to reply, and it wouldnt be easy to respond to each, although each truly does deserve a thank you for taking the time to make this issue better. I was told amps have their own sound, but first and foremost I wanted some power and oomph, and I wouldve preferred 300 wpc..along with reviewed sonic attributes complimenting nass extension smooth and detailed midrange and non fatiguing treble. I've heard of a "McIntosh sound", and know that have powerful amps, but not sure if the overall sonic signature wod be complimentary to these speakers. The dealer told me my choice of amps was not a good match( his words weren't that polite or refined), and that a Class A tube amp was the only way I would be happy. But I couldn't locate a tube amp that came close to the power output I wanted, ..and to my pocket book, I couldn't afford one. Comparing my CD player to the Music Choice from my cable box, Music Choice has a much more subdued midrange, and does a better job of keeping the human voice toned down to the approximate amplitude of the rest of the midrange sounds in the recording.But the tradeoff is that Music Choice programming doesn't have the dynamics of the CDs. Based on a couple of suggestions, I will explore sound deadening material too..as long as I can use it and still keep my living room appearing neat and orderly. Based on a couple of suggestions, I've spaced the speakers very close to 11 feet apart and then toed them way in so the horns are not directly aimed at the listeners. That did help attenuate the shoutiness in a way that was easily discernible. May have made the mid bass more pronounced. Am very pleased for that progress, but still need to employ additional measures. And before I forget, the speaker cables are Straight Wire Octave ll. I've probably used these speakers 20-25 hrs..and 4-6 hours at "like a teenager again" volume levels. So, one person suggested the speakers wont even be broke in yet. I am hoping that indeed that is the case, but from my understanding (or lack of), the horn doesnt really change its sound as much the woofer can as its surrounding becomes more flexible. Overall the sound from these speakers is superb, and even though I didnt come close to paying the retail price of $15K, I still spent what I consider a small fortune, and do want to try to optimize their sounds as much as practically possible. Again, I did not address or touch on each idea that was presented to me, but please understand I am simply overwhelmed by the number of people who were willing to take time from their own day to help me out with this. As Spock said..Live long and prosper.
2 - I heard those same speakers with Bricasti equipment. There was nothing "shouty" about the presentation. The sound was wonderful, engaging and warm. I'm not particularly a JBL fan but this was special. I'd experiment with placement before anything else.
Going from Cardas Twinlink to Purist Venustas speaker cables resulted a surprisingly large reduction in fatiguing high-frequency distortion. Cable swapping is relatively easy and may give you more insight.
I have a pair of 4343's That I acquired a few months back. They had the same problem. Moving them further apart and way into the room alleviated the somewhat irritating glare that was present on some recordings. Toe in is very slight. Here is a great site that will help you tremendously.http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/ There's many knowledgeable JBL aficionados who love to assist on the site.
Greetings, The Perception from your brain thinking that you need 300 watts is something you may want to stay open-minded with. Think of it like this some amps have complicated circuits and with a darker speaker may work okay. My take is your speakers are looking for a simpler less convoluted design. The older Primare conventional amp design was in my opinion very decent performer. When they decided to operate in class D the bass improvement was obvious but in my experience lost all the music in the rest of the spectrum. I wrote them many emails that fell on deaf ears. Rather than wasting money, jumping through hoops, start enjoying yourself my Solution and 10 bucks say put a 2K to 3K pair of Quicksilver Mono Blocks and Quicksilver preamp invert polarity and sail into the Music. Best JohnnyRAudio Connection
I should have said this before but I want to mention congrats on purchasing and owning one of the best current production loudspeakers being made on the market today. I assure you, you did not make a mistake. The 4367 are extremely well engineered and behaving loudspeakers, with proper setup they will be as transparent as can be. I do think that you ears have a sensitivity to certain frequencies that previous speakers you may have owned were recessed in that specific area. Like I said, the 4367 are neutral, so that dip that most speakers have will not be present. As such, the sound may sound more forward, bright, and harsh. But what you're hearing is simply a more true to recording sound.
I own these speakers and I don't have any short term plans to get rid of them.
Just based my on experience with a different 4 x KT88 amp, I believe quicksilver monoblocks will likely not help. I wanted to enjoy the VAC but the woofers were badly controlled in comparison to the compression driver, no matter the tap used. The lower midrange and down was disconnected and HF were overbearing. It was an obvious problem even without comparison to another amplifier, which prompted me to a fairly affordable, safe-play Levinson amp. The ML fixed the issue, although I would love to try a high-power tube amp. There may be something I am missing as I never actually heard Quicksilver amps.
Speakers are so dependent on placement within the room it sounds like it is a 2 fold problem - the room and the placement. I have experienced similar problems with my Linn speakers. One thing that I would suggest trying is elevating, slightly, the front of the speaker so it is slightly focused upward and, alternatively, elevate the rear of the speaker so that it is now focused slightly downward. I have found that slight positioning changes can have considerable effects on the way a speaker sounds. You don't say what coverings you have on the floor i.e. a rug, bare floor. I would also try placing a large area rug in front of the speakers if you don't have a rug. If you do have a rug, an area rug over the carpeting may also be worth a try. I do think focusing, slightly, upward or downward plus treating the floor in front of the speaks may help resolve your problem. Good luck. Welcome to the PIA problems that keep us involved with this hobby/second job.
As a proud and satisfied 4367 owner I’d like to add my thoughts. First off, I’m a deadhead so there’s that. I mated mine with Mac / MC275 Mk V, C2300 and MCD500 used as both a CD player and DAC for my Bluenode2i. I also run a Rel 7ti as I like musical bass. Think Phil zone. The Mac equipment was purchased used over time from Derek at audioclassics for about the price of the speakers. I also have a VPI turntable and Panamax power conditioning. All interconnects are from bluejeanscable. I mention these two sites as they are the best value for the dollar and run by honest and cool people.
Plus 1 for toe in from Duke and more is more for rugs, drapes and furniture.
When you decide to go tubes, hit me up as that is a journey unto itself.
Of course you could just play songs that sound good on your system. Nahh - nobody would ever do that.
I know that was spoken with tongue in cheek, but it's more true than many want to believe. There are lots of people in this hobby with tens of thousands (or much more!) in equipment that only listen to "audiophile" approved recordings. That is beyond sad............
A live room will accentuate mid to treble a great deal, especially with volume.
I suggest these two experiments:
1 - Sit about 2 feet in front and see if the problem goes away. If so, definitely the room.
2 - Throw absorbent materials around like blankets and cushions or pillows. Include the floor between and behind the speakers. Also behind the listening location.
If either of these two show improvement, contact GIK for a permanent fix.
... The issue I bought when I paid for the speakers is a loudly blaring shoutiness in the range of frequencies of the human voice. It can be loud and overpowering even with EQ attenuating the frequencies between 500 and 4khz. I called the dealer who I bought them from for advice..he told me the amp and cd player are junk, ($6000 junk) and the only way to fix the shoutiness was to buy tube equipment. On some recordings, the speakers sound wonderful, but on some, it makes me question whether or not they’re worth keeping.
--
... Based on a couple of suggestions, I’ve spaced the speakers very close to 11 feet apart and then toed them way in so the horns are not directly aimed at the listeners. That did help attenuate the shoutiness in a way that was easily discernible. May have made the mid bass more pronounced. Am very pleased for that progress, but still need to employ additional measures.
I believe there’s a fine line to walk here; some of named "shoutiness" you address is, to my ears, inherent to these speakers, and as such trying to ameliorate these tendencies you may find yourself suppressing other qualities of theirs. Balancing this could be the true challenge while coming to the realization the signature at play - because, believe me: the JBL 4367’s have signature. No speaker truly escapes it, regardless of what others may try to tell you.
Your observation of the JBL’s sounding excellent with some music and not with other mirrors my own experience auditioning them. What I cherish in particular about these speakers is their dynamic/agile/punchy, tonally rather accurate, direct, clean and sphere-like presentation - at least down to the midbass below which I find to port tune and contribution to be quite characteristic (i.e.: the bass becoming a bit too warm/round and lacking detail). The energy, drive and raw insight of the overall sound is addictive indeed, and something I find to be important traits in sound reproduction.
Where they’re less adept - again, to me - and that may to some extend be intrinsically linked to their positively perceived qualities, is handling certain string instruments, violins in particular, and other classical repertoire. This is where the waveguide becomes a bit strident sounding with a slight sense of nasality that lends an unnatural "splash" to the presentation. My thought is material resonance rather than modes produced through the waveguide profile itself or even the driver, but that’s only a guess. They may approach relative "neutrality" or evenness in regards to frequency response, but tonally - depending on the material played through them - they can be a bit uneven, and moreover I find they lack a sense of unforced "flow," liquidity or relaxation in the presentation. In regards to soundstaging, from my recollection, depth of field and height isn’t their strongest trait, but more of a in-the-room presence that’s beguiling in itself.
I believe a lot of good advice has been given already from other posters, but I’d stress getting rid of the "EQ" device you’re using (in the analogue domain?) to make for the cleanest signal possible. You may be able to partly attenuate the frequency region problematic to your ears (without addressing the true problem, that is), but you’ll likely introduce other artifacts that would be promptly laid bare by the 4367’s.
Do you have them placed on proper stands? That’s a must, I find, elevating them some 8-12" from the floor. Another important aspect: power. To my mind you need much more of it, and I’d look into something like the MC² Audio S1400 studio amp that puts out close to 800 watts into 8 ohms. Take my word for it; it sounds wonderful. With regard to acoustics: put a cow skin or similar on the floor and experiment with its placement and proximity to your stereo. It affects the presentation more than one believes. Use diffusion more predominantly than absorption. It takes away the "zing" issues that may arise in the higher frequencies while retaining the energy of the sound.
Please don’t take my criticism above as bashing your speakers - that’s not my intention. With care taken implementing them I find they’re damn good speakers, and a heck of a lot more interesting than most more typical hifi-offerings out there. I hope you’ll come to enjoy them for years.
@ozzy62 It is indeed sad, but I'm sure we all do it to some degree. Mark Levinson talked about this years ago. The system dictates what we listen to. I just can't listen to "demo" music anymore, i.e., Krall, Patricia Barber, etc. It's not that they're bad artists, although not my cup of tea, but they've been so overplayed at shows and videos that I can't stomach it anymore. But that's me.
A tube preamp should do a lot to warm up and smooth out the sound i recommend VAC or CJ which is warmer.If you can afford VAC that is my top pick great company with wonderful service. I also recommend copper speaker wire.Enjoy be well!!
to all you 4367 experts. I am thinking of getting a pair. I am not going to be able to audition so it's a leap of faith. I have Kef Blade 2 and also Klipsch Forte III. I'm liking the Forte III with a First Watt J2 amp (30 watts) Not like the blades don't sound good but I'm growing tired of the sound and have been enjoying the life and snap of the Forte III. I was thinking of a jump to the Cornwall IV or these 4367. Seems like I might ultimately need a more powerful amp than the J2? I'd say it's just barely enough with the Forte III. Cornwall IV is much more efficient than the 4367. I'd assume the 4367 is at a much higher level than the Cornwall IV.
A lot of good advice already. Those asking about running with a low power tube amp I am currently running a Luxman MQ-88uSE 25 watt per channel to good effect. Not ear bleeding loud, but far better than you might suspect. I also run the speakers on Levinson mono blocks. Overall, the “you are there” attributes that many seek out in these speakers is probably best highlighted with the powerful mono blocks, however for a slightly different flavor, they are excellent match for tubes—Nice impedance curve with no severe dips and very good sensitivity. They still maintain a good degree of the “you are there” feeling. I have yet to try any other speakers with my tube amp so cannot make a direct comparison.
As for the “shoutiness” this is again somewhat of a horn attribute. However these are the least shouty horn speakers I’ve personally heard. Horns take a little adapting to and are not for everyone. Even the best of them.
I haven’t seen any specific measurements for this speaker, but as a general rule large cones can become more directional at the high end of their frequency spectrum. If you listen too far off axis the upper woofer frequencies drop off making the higher frequency horns sound relatively more pronounced and shouty. Correct toe in can help alleviate this. Seated ear height can affect this too. I find these speakers sound best if your ear height it’s toward the bottom edge of the horn +/-. Either lower seat or raise speakers. This puts you closer in alignment with the woofer axis. Set sitting height, then play with the tow in. Experiment with both one at a time.
I prefer a little closer distance on the speakers than some here... my current set up is 7’10” apart feet apart and seated 8’ from the face (not tweeter driver) of the speaker. I have them towed in so I can see maybe a 1 inch reveal of the inner sides of the speakers. Some of this is driven by my room constraints. But a starting point. You may want to buy some cheap plastic gliders to temporarily put under the feet of the speakers while you adjust. Maybe some under your seat too. And, if you’re anal like me, some clean gloves for handling the speakers. A laser measure device comes in handy for getting distances set. From a seated position hold laser measure against your ear and aim at the center of control panel.
I think second reflection point treatment is a good idea. 4 inches or thicker. I’ve never much liked 1st reflection point treatments..personal preference and room dependent. Some put large leafy artificial plants in front corners to help scatter sound. Oh yeah, ditch the analog equalizer. These speakers are highly, highly revealing and flaws in the upstream equipment or unnecessary components will be highlighted. Be patient, one move at a time and enjoy the music while experimenting.
... won’t let me edit my post. Yeah, I know.…Toe in not tow. VR. One exception for me on first reflections is floor bounce. Thick rug with thick pad. Also, if you’re seating has a headrest, is leather or both(not ideal, but who doesn’t like to recline back and listen?) put a sheep skin throw over it and Push your head/ears away with a firm small furry cushion. The head rest can have a similar effect as cupping your ears. As an aside, there is also an interesting posting about these speakers paired with Luxman solid-state gear on audio science.
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