This specific subject has been discussed and debated here, and everywhere. I know my systems, I know my music, and I trust my ears. Taking 1 piece out and replacing it with another piece, whether it is an amplifier, or an interconnect, I hear differences. Determining which I prefer, that is for another discussion, but differences, are easily audible. Enjoy ! MrD.
Is there actually a difference?
Speakers sound different - that is very obvious. But I’ve never experienced a drastic change between amps. Disclaimer that I’ve never personally ABX tested any extremely high end gear.
With all these articles claiming every other budget amp is a "giant killer", I’ve been wondering if there has ever been blind tests done with amplifiers to see if human ears can consistently tell the difference. You can swear to yourself that they do sound different, but the mind is a powerful thing, and you can never be sure unless it’s a truly blind test.
One step further - even IF we actually can tell the difference and we can distinguish a certain amp 7/10 times under extreme scrutiny, is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out to get that nearly-imperceivable .01% increase in performance?
Not looking to stir up any heated debate. I’ve been in audio for several years now and have always thought about this.
With all these articles claiming every other budget amp is a "giant killer", I’ve been wondering if there has ever been blind tests done with amplifiers to see if human ears can consistently tell the difference. You can swear to yourself that they do sound different, but the mind is a powerful thing, and you can never be sure unless it’s a truly blind test.
One step further - even IF we actually can tell the difference and we can distinguish a certain amp 7/10 times under extreme scrutiny, is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out to get that nearly-imperceivable .01% increase in performance?
Not looking to stir up any heated debate. I’ve been in audio for several years now and have always thought about this.
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Back when I was young many years ago I could here all sorts of differences between amps. In the pre-nineties days the big amps often didn’t sound near as good as the low wattage four output transistor 60 watt class! In those times interstate coupling caps were common and caused degradation. Around 2K many companies had adopted direct coupled designs with dc servos on the outputs. All at once amps sounded much cleaner, even the big amps were much improved. (Yes I know I’m oversimplifying!) In recent years I found out about level matching amplifiers (within .003 volts) from Van Alstine. (Wish I’d known sooner.) Using his methodology, most modern amplifiers I’ve compared sound very similar in the mid frequencies. I think due variances in output impedance and how an amp interacts with a speaker’s modulus of impedance there are audible differences mainly in the frequency extremes. I think those who hear dramatic differences in amp sound are using a speaker with a difficult load. I’m not surprised when Alan Shaw has no winners of the Harbeth Challenge. Those speakers are such an easy load. I suspect any reasonably good modern amplifier would sound almost identical! Good discussion. |
I have two SS amps in my system that I swap back and forth. Perhaps not a fair comparison but one is a Threshold S200 I use for serious music listening and the other is a Parasound Zamp V3 which is used for casual listening and tv. The Zamp is very well reviewed and is considered to punch way above it's pay grade. That said...the Threshold destroys it in every category and I'm sure I could pick it out 100% of the time in a blind test. I recently picked up a set of Acoustic Zen Hologram II speaker cables and I can hear a very nice improvement while connected to the Threshold. I cannot hear any difference while connected to the Parasound. Like I said probably not a fair comparison, swap the Zamp out with JC1s or JC5s and I'm sure the differences wouldn't be so stark. My point is of course there are differences, class A alone puts a SS amp in another category. I want to try a tube amp next :) |
Interesting results from that test. My wife and I have four different systems in our house, and we certainly don't agree on what sounds "better". When I have a friend over to listen to the main system, more often than not there is disagreement over which sounds better, and for what reasons. People do hear things, and listen for things, differently. |
Check these guys out. Follow link and click on blind tests. They A/B tested 2 systems with only the speakers (ATC SCM 12) and speaker cables in common. System 1 Classe YBA Wadia System 2 Sony Behringer Further more, the the cheap system used really cheap “RadioShack” quality interconnects and was set up on a rickety, wooden chair. http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_marco.htm |
There are plenty, but the most famous one is the Stereo Review one from 1987(?). I've been in a couple. No one did better than a coin flip. |
System synergy is most important. There are big differences in sound between a good tube amp and a SS amp. I also disagree that all good SS amps sound the same. IMO, there are a lot of SS companies that have a HOUSE. For example, classe and McIntosh have warmer sounding amps where there are companies that have more cooler sounding amps. |
Every type of capacitor, every brand of resistor, transistors, tubes, all sound different. Add circuit topology, and, while there may be similarities, no two amps will sound identical - that is, with practice and attention. I change one thing at a time in my DIY Class A SS; sometimes it takes a day or two to educate the ear, but most changes are audible. For example, as an experiment, I used different brands and types of resistors in a high quality rotary switch as the gain resistor. The differences were obvious, the choices clear - and the most expensive resistor made the poorest sound. |
I am firmly in the "Yes, they can sound very different camp." In the past, I have switched out similar mid-fi amps on lower resolution systems and heard no discernable difference, but since I have had better systems, any amp that I use now sounds distinctly different. The differences are easy to hear, simple as that. |
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"SS amplification (pre and power) reached such a high level of development over the past three decades that competing units are functionally and sonically equivalent. " |
Maybe it is just in my setup but I am certain I can hear a difference in solid state amps. Auditioned several amplifiers with my Tannoy XT8 speakers along the way. Started with a Creek 50A - warm and very pleasant but not much energy. Moved to a Naim XS and definitely got a more solid presentation top to bottom. Then the eye wanders and I try the big Peachtree class D and the PS Audio 700 Monoblocks. Neither myself nor my wife could really every enjoy either class D. Dry and thin were the words we came up with independently. Strong dynamics but no joy. Could be the Tannoy sensitivity just not playing ball as plenty of reviewers like them enough. Now I run a Hegel 160 though the week and a Primaluna Dialogue Premium Integrated on the weekend and any days I can just sit and listen. The Hegel has a great sound for a SS but the Primaluna is just so very nice. Might try me Sugden, Class A Luxman or First Watt next for a little bit of that SS warmth folks talk about. |
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"...is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out to get that nearly-imperceivable .01% increase in performance?"Only a person paying for it can answer that question. Some people drive Toyota Corolla, others prefer Lamborghini. Some of those with Lamborghini are fine with a Bluetooth speaker, while some with Toyota have more expensive audio equipment. It depends what you value at the moment of purchase and how much. |
The only high power SS amps I have owned was a Krell and a Pass Labs. Heck at one time I A/B'd a Pass Labs X350.5 against the Pass Labs X350.8 and in all instances it was quite easy to notice the differences. In tube amps I had a Atma-sphere M-60 3.3 and now I own the new Carver Raven 350. They sound more similar to each other than the solid states did. ozzy |
I am 100% confident I could tell the difference 10/10 times between the Schiit Vidar that I tried and the Levinson 333 I bought and that is my “forever-amplifier.” My Nautilus 801’s are known to be very hard to drive. I wish I had another 333 to play with for a few weeks to try bi-amping, but I’m happy how it is. |
I’ve tested several and I couldn’t tell any difference and I was trying to hear a difference.. I did testing between Krell and Red Dragon mono amps and couldn’t tell the difference between them either other than the Dragons had better bass slam. Same thing with DAC’S, the difference was negligible between a $1k DAC and $4k one. |
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I agree with others who have said "it depends on the speaker". In my travels, I stopped at a dealer and auditioned a Magico floor standing speaker at first driven by a solid state power amp with a very high damping factor; it seemed in that setup the Magicos needed to be driven pretty hard to "come to life". When the other sound room became available, the salesman moved the Magicos and played them with a powerful tube amp and to me, they sounded significantly more "musical", had better bass and didn't sound so "in your face". As I've moved up the line with my equipment, it seems that it's the "synergy" of all the components in the chain that seems most important. |
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"Speakers sound different - that is very obvious. But I’ve never experienced a drastic change between amps. Disclaimer that I’ve never personally ABX tested any extremely high end gear." In general, on an absolute basis it's easier to hear differences in speakers because their design physically couples and interacts with the room. Differences in amps can be more subtle but still crucial, and they can also vary by system. In my system for example, my speakers are relatively efficient and I tend to hear much less difference between amps than preamps. With more demanding speakers I think differences between amps can become more apparent and meaningful. But even in my system, subtle differences in amps can be extremely important at a certain level. "At a certain level" is the critical point here, and this gets to my next point. "One step further - even IF we actually can tell the difference and we can distinguish a certain amp 7/10 times under extreme scrutiny, is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out to get that nearly-imperceivable .01% increase in performance?" First, it's impossible to quantify differences between two components, so let's just call them small perceived differences on an absolute level. Once you become familiar with truly reference quality sound reproduction and your own personal tastes in what moves you sonically, these "small" perceived differences can literally make all the difference. The difference between a system that objectively sounds really really good and one that drops your jaw to the ground and/or has the ability to reduce you to tears with the right music could easily be a matter of changing from one amplifier to another. Given that level of impact, how much extra would YOU pay for that amplifier? As I said before, "at a certain level" (and level applies as much to the audiophile as it does the system) relatively small absolute perceived differences between amplifiers can ultimately be huge in the context of a good system. By the way, this doesn't apply to only megabuck systems -- it also very much holds for high-quality affordable systems. I'll end with this -- "at a certain level" absolutely EVERYTHING in a system (and the room it's in) matters and can become crucial. |
Lots of good answers above. Yes many big dollar amps are more about hefty power supplies so they can drive difficult loads, as was said previously. My own approach is that if a speaker is a difficult load I don't want it. Money believe is multi way difficult to drive speakers use a tiny bit of fine detail. Speaking purely of dynamic cone speakers. Panel speakers are another story, I can understand why they are difficult loads. And as well as alluded to above, the best sounding amps are lower powered simple amps, often times tube based. That being said, I love running a big solid-state amp into a pair of subs for anything below 50 Hz. Off of a separate Output on the preamp. But Audio is highly subjective and I'll never fault anyone for a different path to their own happiness. Just don't buy into all the nonsense that's floating around. |
There are no giant killers in audio, only good values and products that don't perform at their value. Very well said, @audiothesis I will add that some do, and will, look a giant in the eyes. : ) |
twoleftears ... not a huge difference between competent SS designs, despite the supposed chasms that audio reviewers like to dwell on and rhapsodize about ...The problem with opaque criticism such as this is that labeling something a "huge difference" or "not a huge difference" is completely subjective. The same happens when others observe the diminishing returns that happen as price increases. Those relatively small, incremental improvements are very important to some, and not at all important to others. The OP asks "is it really worth the thousands you are shelling out" for those improvements. The answer is for every audiophile to decide for himself. |
Partly depends on the interaction of the amp and the loudspeaker connected, and their electrical characteristics. A given amp can sound bad on one speaker and much better on another. But yes, agree with @shadorne, not a huge difference between competent SS designs, despite the supposed chasms that audio reviewers like to dwell on and rhapsodize about. But I certainly noticed a difference between my 300B, single-ended, class A Cary and a significantly higher-powered SS. Swings and roundabouts. |
This could be a very interesting tread, looking forward to follow it. One thing I feel doesn’t get enough discussion is high end solid state amps for normal 2way speakers or just speakers that are easy to drive, not talking about horns and the like, often when I see discussion about high end amps ( and there is a big tread on this forum) it always is high wattage amps driving difficult to low impedance full range speakers! Maybe members on this forum are mostly US based, therefore having larger living rooms or space for their equipment, so large speakers are more appealing giving the full sound one needs, or could it be the US members liking more umph in the lower register;-) be as it may, in most countries around the world I think that a big percentage of music lovers have much smaller rooms where good quality (smaller) amps and speakers are more suitable. Would say a 100w to 150w high end intergrated amp sound much different between each other ? ( excluding Class A ) And could you not get a better (high end ) sound much cheaper than many of these high end rigs we see, often in rooms that are far too small to make them justice? Just something I think about sometimes:-) A disclaimer, I have nothing against people spending big money on nice big systems, have heard two that sounded fantastic, although most I find sound way to cold and clinical, often loosing the essence in the music, making me want to leave the room after a few songs. I also often find that smaller amps sound better at low volume than high wattage amps, do others have that experience too? Would a 8 ohm speaker going down to 6 ohm need more than say 150w ? |
Depends on the speaker. :) Reasonably good amplifiers driving a very neutral load should sound the same, except for distortion, which amps like Pass deliberately add. I listened to some very good solid state, linear amps and Class D and could not tell them apart with my speakers, so I sold the linear amps. :) Some speakers are said to be "discerning" of amplifiers, which really means they are hard to drive and more likely to show up audible differences between amps with different output impedances. For extreme examples of this, see the frequency response charts for tube amps on Stereophile. Yes, we're talking SS but that will illustrate output impedance issues well. Best, Erik |
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