Is it important to long demo or own HIGH END gear to have a fair accurate view about it?
I have heard a lot of opinions about high end gear on the forums but a lot of it comes from folks that don’t own it. They bash it because of the price. Which I understand on one end but many don’t own, haven’t long demoed or even heard a lot of higher end gear thoughts? Please no personal bashing just your opinion?
Beautiful system, great venue. The nice thing is that typically electrostatics do not mind things like a screen in between them. While they are finicky about a lot of things, there are a lot of advantages.
I can see how you could end up in such a sweet spot with a long term view with space. I was always space and financially constrained so the path would have been harder. But you have a very envious system. |
I dont know how people can think they had heard something in any room which is not their room , and with any complementary gear around it which is not their gear... They can have an "idea" about the quality of these something they heard somewhere in a showroom... A showroom is not a dedicated room created by someone over many years of work attentive to details ... To really hear the potential of a piece of gear we must learn how to couple it with the rest of the system and after that creating a room around it investing ourself in it and immersing ourself in all details ... But what makes high-end high end , is the dedication to embed it righfully in a specific room ... It takes more time than purchasing an upgrade which may be often only a side grade ... Room acoustics impact so hugely on any system , it is the main upgrade, it is unbelievable not just great...Especially if you had a relatively good system synergy, the room system relation is the key to audio ...Today we must add the BACCH filters of Dr, Choueiri ...
I had been lucky enough to had been captive with low cost components...Yes now i know it was luck for me... I would have never invest so much time to understood how to embed a system if i could have bought anything ...I am lazy... 😁 but i was deseperate by how bad all i had bought, even top speakers , sound not good ... Then i could modify my low cost gear and learn without being afraid to take the risk to destroy them ...😁 i did it but it was not enough... I realize that i must experiment with acoustics... All had begun there ... I think for 10 years that the low cost active well reviewed speakers i bought 10 years ago were just trash...I put them on a secondary computer and just forget them ... I sold my house and lost my dedicated room and my big speakers... Then i had no other choice one year ago then to learn about the way to embed these low cost active speakers this time rightfully and coupled them with the right component ...I was desesperate by the lost of my room and i work hard to recreate a room ... I did it , but was not totally satisfied...they lack bass and lack holography and the soundstage stay between the speakers etc .... I modified the porthole completely and the wave guide of the tweeter ...I add some acoustic devices and electrical controls etc Short story results : amazing... There is no relation between them right out of the box and now ...ZERO comparison... Then if one here goes listening to this small active speakers in a showroom he would have no idea about this gem at cheap cost ...And he will call me name because i dare to speak here about S. Q. with such cheap gear piece ...😁 High end is a state of mind and a state of learning as said mikelavigne ... My system dont compare with most here but i assure you it is not trash sound at all ... I am proud not envious...😊 I am sorry for many here in truth instead of being envious ( my ego for sure dont help me 😊 here) ... Thats is my state of mind AFTER learning for years how to work on any system at any price ... it takes time much time and dedication to acoustic among other factors ... By the way i called my audiophile experience : the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold... I call it acoustical because all acoustic parameters pertaining to sound perception are relatively balanced and not overemphasized or lacking too much ... Any system at any price can give satisfaction or not , it is related to the way you work it and work with it ...
«the high end is not gear, it’s a state of mind» Mikelavigne
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@mahgister …”I dont know how people can think they had heard something in any room which is not their room , and with any complementary gear around it which is not their gear...”. I think you learn venues the same way you can learn to separate what the specific speakers contribute, versus amp, preamp, vs, source. Experience. The more venues, live music, and equipment you experience you can start separating them out. I remember the beginning of my pursuing the high end… my head was spinning. But over time I learned the house sound of Rotel, NAD, B&W, Threshold… etc. over the decades, I could tell what was venue, setup. I would often go to an audition and go adjust the toe-in or have the guys use a different amp. I found I started knowing much more than a lot of folks selling the gear. Also, I learned to quick;y spot folks that knew what they were talking about. We would instantly become fast friends and be able to exchange ideas and observations at a mile a minute. This is what makes the pursuit so fascinating long-termed. There is no end to learning. |
Thanx gh. It is not perfect yet, but we are making headway. First of all, I prefer the large presentation of line source systems. Dipole, line source, open baffle speakers have extreme advantages when it comes to room acoustics. Because they do not project sound to the sides, up or down there is much less room interaction. You only have to worry about what comes off the back of the speaker which is easy to deal with. I use 4" foam acoustic tile, three rows, floor to ceiling directly behind the speakers. Bass is always a problem for dipoles and I cross to subwoofers at 100 Hz relieving them of the problem entirely. I have four new subwoofers which are almost finished. They should easily outperform the current ones. The New DEQX processor should arrive in a week or two and I plan on biamping the ESLs using the crossover in the DEQX and a Bricasti M25 to drive the high frequency transformers. There are a few luxury Items that I might jump for in the future like the Channel D Seta L 20, the best phono stage made IMHO. The Dohmann Helix 2 is also on the list along with a Schroder LT and maybe a few more cartridges.
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I never said that listening experience in showroom is not informative... It is... But the only way to know the optimal potential of a piece of gear is in our OWN room with our OWN work and time and with our OWN gear to couple with it ... Thats my point ... I am sure you understand it but i must clarify ...
I will say it more drastically than Mikelavigne because people dont always understand a point if not said in an exagerated way stylistically : High end has nothing to do with the gear price tag. and even with his design ultimately , but with the way we work the gear we have with passion for music and for learning and passion for acoustics ... Give me anything relatively not too bad, i will make it sound minimally satisfying or more if i invest time to learn how to do it... the only thing that help a lot is often a dedicated room ... the most difficult element to buy for many of us...my room now is very small ...😊 but i can live now with it without any frustration ... read me right , for sure design matter, it is better to have the Fritz speakers bookshelves than my low cost active speakers... But i can do with any of the two ...because of what i learned ...
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....I'm still stuck on 'grain in the treble', and whether is was wheat or oats.... ..but agree with @mapman most issues lie in the rooms we occupy with our 'stuff'... The 'agreeable average response', given the items within said spaces, will rarely be 'purrfect' unless ones' sig other is either very tolerant, likes 'quality' v. 'visuals', has been trussed up and 'put in storage', or divorced (which cancels out most any 'future improvements').... Spouse Ev likes our small Maggies' and the sound of the Heils'....I'm working on the Walsh to make them 'room friendly' visually...;) |
For me I need to get any piece of gear home before I really know if I like it or not. Demoing gear is frustrating. Just like buying tickets for a Broadway show six months in advance frequently I'm not in the mood come showtime! The best thing in the world is cueing up a record, pouring a glass of wine and settling in for a good listen WHEN I'M READY |
High end, perfectionist, mid fi and others are marketing terms. Don't take them too seriously. If you have a passion for well reproduced music then you are by definition a music lover and an audiophile. Additionally, you don't have to be an audiophile to have music touch your soul. Your average human can do it with minimal quality equipment. Short term listening can easily reveal differences between equipment, but long term listening is useful in figuring out whether you really enjoy the differences. @calvinj was that 12 year sentence of listening to cables served in the Fed system or was it in a state penal system? Either way it sounds like a violation of your human rights! |
Most of us "seasoned audiophiles" here have developed pretty sensitive antennas over the years and can do a fairly comprehensive evaluation of a prospective audio component in less time than it takes to do an oil change at Jiffy Lube. But, there’s no substitute for a long-term audition at home when all the factors come into play. Resonant frequency of vessel holding preferred beverage, breed, size, and weight of dog at our feet, cushion material and height of favoite listening chair, orientation of slats/grain of flooring materials. You know, all the other stuff. |
@onhwy61 i did it initially to learn the difference between them. Once I got really good equipment I wanted to see what the cables could do to affect sound. I wanted to know as much as possible about them. I’m kind of OCD when it comes to sound. I just wanted to educate myself on being able to tell differences. Like anything else research research research. Try as much as you can. Me and 2 of my audiophile buddies went in this journey together. One did speakers. One did amps. I did cables. For 12 years we put system after system together. It was the best of times. Great wknd listening sessions. Unfortunately one of the guys died. He was a great music buddy and a wealth of audiophile knowledge. The music would get so good sometimes he would zone out. It was funny! But the best of times. That’s what it is all about. Being closer to the music. |
@asvjerry …”....I’m still stuck on ’grain in the treble’, and whether is was wheat or oats....”
I would have to say actually more like sandy. I remember hearing about grainy treble. I could not for the life of me imagine what that would sound like until I heard it… you know that feeling when it is as if your blood just turns hot 🥵 and descends down your face making you realize you made a huge expensive mistake? Like that. Sandy. Not smooth… the last big mistake I think I made in audio… that was about 1980. I returned it at a big loss and bought a used Audio Research preamp which the guy guaranteed I would love… I did. I think I kept it for nearly twenty years. Now all my equipment is all Audio Research…. No sand.
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unless of course the amplifier and speaker designer are one and same with a deep understanding of both the load and amplifiers to deal with it, tame as it might be. A unique high end state of mind is the ability to understand the trade off inherent in a particular design ( edge clamping distortion and energy storage / release are just 2 attributes of planers…there are more ), being able to relate those to measure and listen results and move the ball forward without being a my way or the highway blowhard …ah that’s a high end audiophile to know….. i seek them out…. Please note i own both planer and point source, oh and a former that approximate the latter ( RIP Peter ) |
@asvjerry I would say, knowing Brian as i do…it’s likely a hybrid oat - wheatberry treble… His reference system is centered around Quad 57 and Croft tube gear… he is on my list of state of mind people to maintain a learning friendship with @waytoomuchstuff You had me interested at wineglass, sold at Dog. Bless you too ! |
@tomic601 a few years ago during this journey the owner of a company o worked with swapped out gear 2 to 3 times a year which led to about 5 or 6 years of long extended 2 to 3 month demos with gear. I haven’t ears as many turntables as digital but that combined with knowing a dealer named Dave Baskin who had ALS and was literally on a mission to hear as many systems as he could put together and he put together many because he had the resources. These experiences has alllowed me to run through a lot of gear on long demos. I been blessed. |
@tomic601 turntables are a whole other monster. $$. I haven’t heard the number of turntables as opposed to digital. I have heard some turntables but not the really expensive ones. My turntable knowledge is limited |
@tomic601 yes. I would get the gear after the owner had it for 6 months of heavy listening. I would typically keep it for about 3 months 4 months at a time. Listening everyday after work and on weekends. Sometimes just letting it run at night. @jafant long demos are key to getting a real feeling gear. I took a dealer my INFIGO METHOD 4 AND METHOD 6 stuff today for a 2 month demo while I listen to a Pilium Integrated and a Soulution 746 cd transport. Gonna let it run for the next 72 hours. Before I do any critical listening. |
@tomic601 .....*S*, and you won't get a argument from self re @ghdprentice /Brian....always seems a gentleman... ;) ...and whether it's grain, sand, oats, or even cockleburs, I tend to tease a tad....*g* AMT & Walsh fan that I am, I feel I've eliminated that sort of 'roughage' from my audio diet....dome tweets and piezo versions, however, are nearly absent in my local focal locus...and the remaining pair are part of a pair of speakers kept in midrange where they don't annoy.... We all have our foibles....and means of coping... ....and, for now, I'd rather wait for Sandy Paws....;) Happy Pre-Christmas, y'all.... |
It is 90 feet from the speakers to the first full length solid wall. The house is open concept. The media room is open to the kitchen which is open to the dinning room. At the front of the house you have my wife's office, the front entryway and the Fireplace/living room. Only the office and bathroom have doors. |
All I can say is that IMHE anytime an item is significantly superior from a purely sonic perspective I and the others I deal with seem to know it right away. I call it the wide eye sign. I just got it out of a friend who is taking the MiniDSP SHD off my hands when the DEQX arrives. I had to do something inexpensive when my TacT 2.2X died. I was already in line for the DEQX Pre 8. The Friend was interested in the MiniDSP as he can't turn up his system too loud because it is too bright and sibilant. He appreciates my system which never seems to be strained. I took the SHD over to his house and calibrated the system. I immediately got the wide eye sign when I kicked it in. He only had to audition it for 10 seconds. The MiniDSP is a bit grainy in my system. I think it is the inexpensive DACs. In his system it did fine. Benchmark Media Systems uses an SHD Studio in their demonstration system but with their own very excellent DACs and they say it sounds great. It is not the model of digital flexibility, but for $1400 who can complain? On the other hand most systems including mine have specific problems. Once the reason for the problem is found one has to come up with a fix. This is primarily the way my system has evolved over 60 years. Sometimes I am my own worse enemy by taking unnecessary diversions which turned into dead ends. The Apogee Divas were such a diversion. They sounded wonderful at first, but it did not take long for durability issues to creep in and the company rapidly got into trouble. I bailed out before they went under and returned to the ESL I should have never left. I have owned several turntables that turned out to be big mistakes. |
You bet Ron. Because of the subwoofer array and high crossover point (100 Hz) the ESLs will easily achieve concert levels. People think of Quads when you mention ESLs which were not the most reliable speaker going and by themselves not capable of serious volume levels. You can't hurt Sound Labs speakers. You'll saturate the transformers long before you can do any damage to the diaphragms. |
@jafant long time no talk to my friend. Well I’m letting the pilium integrated and soulution 746 cd player get some hours on each in my system before I start grading with each. Will listen for a week and then play with power cords a little on each component. This will be interesting. The Pilium is 230 pounds. Took 2 guys to carry it in. The Soulution 746 cd player has its own power supply. I owned the 540 previous before I purchased the INFIGO AUDIO METHOD 4 DAC. My dac has a very open airy sound with great space and decay. Will see how this pairing of the Pilium and Soulution 746 works out. |
This seems somewhat backwards. Don’t we usually research gear first then purchase to try in our audio chains? Then subsequently we’d discover if we like the change? Agree it’s always best to demo in one’s own audio chain. |
@mahgister i understand your point. But with that being said. I mean highly engineered equipment that sells at higher price points because of the alleged build quality and technology etc. |
i understand you too and if i could i will buy better speakers than what i already own even if after my modifications i am more than happy ... My low cost speakers will not beat my past Tannoy dual concentric acoustic potential embedded right ... My point was only made to put emphasis on acoustic basic more than on price tag and better quality design ... Between the extreme and the TOP of gear there is the majority of average products neither mediocre nor highly refined... Here acoustic knowledge make a huge difference ... Thats my point ... I never negated the common place fact that we get also what we pay for ... Common place fact are implicit and i dont need nor to endorse them nor to repeat them , anybody know that... But few people has experienced the huge transformative power of acoustics ...( not mere few panels on a wall as most thought, thinking about acoustics)
I wish you a happy new year with plenty of luck and a good health for you and your family ...😊
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"Long demo"...Hmm, depends on the type of gear (from the gross to the subtle), i suppose. Speakers and amps, I can fairly quickly say ’not for me, get it outta here". I won’t waste your time. DACs, for instance...especially if they are above a certain pricepoint and threshold for fidelity (i.e., things start to get a lot subtler), I may need to audit it for a couple of months. I’ll listen to a dac for a week, swap to the next for a week, swap back for a week, etc. Many a time, it is fairly difficult to even articulate why one appeals more to the taste buds than the other. So...almighty dealers, do you mind loaning out demo dac units, for example, (’Hhhhhigh end’ n all) for 45 to 60 days at a time?? Would that work with your business model or would it frazzle your feathers a bit too much? If not, that’s ok, you can keep it. ;) How about that 'very very subtle' 20k speaker cable?? If not, that’s ok, you can keep it ;) ;) You see boys...this is why it helps to network/have a friend circle of dudes who’ll loan you gear and vice versa. It is a "no pressure, audit at leisure" solution that helps you learn about what you like or not. Manufacturer & other audio nerds in town = friend Dealer = ________ (it’s complicated, fill in the blanks as you see fit)
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@jafant i tried the soulution 746 pulium integrated combo. Both are great pieces. But as a combo very analogue sounding a bit on the cozy side. I just swapped the soulution out and I’m trying an esoteric N-01XD dac so far it’s a better match. Little more lively but still smooth. |
@mahgister happy new year. Thank you for your conversation and viewpoints. Enjoy the music. |
@jafant I traded that in so that I can could by the Infigo Method 4 Dac. I work with Infigo Audio. I bought the Method 4 because Hans used to work with the inventor of the Ess Sabre Dac chip and when he developed this Dac. I heard it and was amazed. It’s the best dac I’ve heard ever. It’s expensive but he really built it well. He elimated distortion by building mini heat sinks between the individual dac chip. He even has a program the measures the distortion in the second and third harmonics and can adjust the chip accordingly. It does all of this while sounding musical and giving a huge soundstage. I heard this dac and had to have it so I sold the soulution. I’m only demoing stuff now because a dealer has my dac and amp because he is considering taking in our line after hearing great things about it. I’m listening to the esoteric and so far it’s pretty good. I like my dac better but this esoteric has nice detail and musicality. Gonna let it run for another week. |
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All other variables being the same, not necessarily. IMHO, long term is more about deciding on preferences, not figuring out how something sounds. Sometimes you just have to make your best guess, put down your money, and live with it for a while before your know if you prefer it or not. So many times I have bought something, decided on the sound and put it away. Then I will doubt myself, get it out months later, and yes, it still sounds like I remember. As one audiophile's wife said "They all sound good, just pick one". |
One should listen Youtube videos of live recordings before demo any audio equipment. All audio equipment are unnatural sound and human ears trick us always. That’s why even seasoned audiophiles can’t be confident about an audio sound and they keep change gears after many decades of their audio journey. The microphone can’t lie. If A system sounds better than B system in YT, A system sounds better in real life. One should choose a favorite sound equipment in YT and demo it. Alex/WTA |
@mikelavigne :"the high end is not gear, it’s a state of mind" Word. "Easily the best sentence.. explaining post to go with it I ever read in audiogon..." I agree completely with @mahgister on Mike Lavigne's post. |
