Is it important to long demo or own HIGH END gear to have a fair accurate view about it?


I have heard a lot of opinions about high end gear on the forums but a lot of it comes from folks that don’t own it. They bash it because of the price. Which I understand on one end but many don’t own, haven’t long demoed or even heard a lot of higher end gear thoughts? Please no personal bashing just your opinion? 

calvinj

Showing 7 responses by mijostyn

It depends on the experience of the individual and what that individual prefers. I prefer line source, dipole ESLs. I only listen to point source speakers when evaluating them for other people. Speakers should always be auditioned as the variability is very high. The speaker then determines the type of amp required. After that auditioning is not near as important. Most differences that some audiophiles gush over are really quite minor or maybe even psychological. Always beware of two traps, the cool looking trap and the costs more trap. Looks and cost do not determine sound quality. Some equipment such as tonearms and turntables can be evaluated on a design and build quality basis and do not need to be listened to. Turntables and Tonearms should have no sound, none. If there is a difference in sound quality something is wrong. The better turntables are silent and interface the record properly. After 15 to 20 grand all you are buying is looks and exclusivity, bragging rights. Once you have a turntable that makes no sound of it's own and is accurate you can not do better and IMHO the extra money for bragging rights should be spent on music and great bottles of wine. 

@grislybutter 

I said "Most."  Amplifiers can sound vastly different depending on the speaker you connect them to and their output impedance. Some amps are terrible at driving certain speakers but will sound great on others. Choosing the right speakers is the first problem them a matching amp the next. Everything else is very minor. My situation is a perfect example. I use Sound Labs ESLs. ESLs have a unique impedance curve. It starts out at about 30 ohms in the low bass and by 20 kHz it is down to 1 ohm. Any amp with an output impedance over 1 ohm will not be able to make high treble. Atmasphere MA 2s have a reputation for sounding amazing on SL speakers. I got a pair and they do, except for one thing. The treble starts rolling off quickly at 12 kHz. Their output impedance is 1.5 ohms. The sparkle is missing. If you try using an SS amp with a very low output impedance the treble can be wonderful but many such SS amps will die into a 30 ohm load and the bass suffers. You have to use a real monster like a JC 1+. The Atmasphere actually has more punch into the SLs than the JC 1! It's power does not change with impedance. I am working on a solution to this problem. I have a preamp coming with an integral 4 way digital crossover. I will separate the high frequency transformer from the low frequency transformer and I will biamp them using the MA 2s to drive the low frequency transformer and a Bricasti M25 to drive the high frequency transformer crossing at 5 kHz. The M25 has a sparkling high end. It operates in class A for the first 20 watts or so. It has an output impedance of something like 0.05 ohms.

Put the wrong amp or amps on these speakers and they will sound terrible and people will think the speakers and amp are garbage. This happens a lot with ESLs which is one reason people are skeptical. There are many other speakers and amps that can be as difficult to match. But, this is where the money is. Do it wrong and everything else does not matter. Get it right and everything else is easy. 

@ghdprentice 

I have adapted to them over 40 years. Consequently they are no problem for me. The biggest issue for most people is the size as they are trying to use them in a room used for another purposes. I have a media room used only for music and video. The SLs fit in beautifully as you can see on my system page. We have another "living room" which my wife has dominion over:-) 

I have heard some excellent dynamic speakers lately. The cream of the crop is the Franco Serblin Ketemas. Great speakers!

@ghdprentice 

Thanx gh. It is not perfect yet, but we are making headway.

First of all, I prefer the large presentation of line source systems. Dipole, line source, open baffle speakers have extreme advantages when it comes to room acoustics. Because they do not project sound to the sides, up or down there is much less room interaction. You only have to worry about what comes off the back of the speaker which is easy to deal with. I use 4" foam acoustic tile, three rows, floor to ceiling directly behind the speakers. Bass is always a problem for dipoles and I cross to subwoofers at 100 Hz relieving them of the problem entirely. 

I have four new subwoofers which are almost finished. They should easily outperform the current ones. The New DEQX processor should arrive in a week or two and I plan on biamping the ESLs using the crossover in the DEQX and a Bricasti M25 to drive the high frequency transformers. There are a few luxury Items that I might jump for in the future like the Channel D Seta L 20, the best phono stage made IMHO. The Dohmann Helix 2 is also on the list along with a Schroder LT and maybe a few more cartridges. 

 

@ronboco 

It is 90 feet from the speakers to the first full length solid wall. The house is open concept. The media room is open to the kitchen which is open to the dinning room. At the front of the house you have my wife's office, the front entryway and the Fireplace/living room. Only the office and bathroom have doors. 

All I can say is that IMHE anytime an item is significantly superior from a purely sonic perspective I and the others I deal with seem to know it right away. I call it the wide eye sign. I just got it out of a friend who is taking the MiniDSP SHD off my hands when the DEQX arrives. I had to do something inexpensive when my TacT 2.2X died. I was already in line for the DEQX Pre 8. The Friend was interested in the MiniDSP as he can't turn up his system too loud because it is too bright and sibilant. He appreciates my system which never seems to be strained. I took the SHD over to his house and calibrated the system. I immediately got the wide eye sign when I kicked it in. He only had to audition it for 10 seconds. The MiniDSP is a bit grainy in my system. I think it is the inexpensive DACs. In his system it did fine. Benchmark Media Systems uses an SHD Studio in their demonstration system but with their own very excellent DACs and they say it sounds great. It is not the model of digital flexibility, but for $1400 who can complain?  

On the other hand most systems including mine have specific problems. Once the reason for the problem is found one has to come up with a fix. This is primarily the way my system has evolved over 60 years. Sometimes I am my own worse enemy by taking unnecessary diversions which turned into dead ends. The Apogee Divas were such a diversion. They sounded wonderful at first, but it did not take long for durability issues to creep in and the company rapidly got into trouble. I bailed out before they went under and returned to the ESL I should have never left. I have owned several turntables that turned out to be big mistakes.

@ronboco 

You bet Ron. Because of the subwoofer array and high crossover point (100 Hz) the ESLs will easily achieve concert levels. People think of Quads when you mention ESLs which were not the most reliable speaker going and by themselves not capable of serious volume levels. You can't hurt Sound Labs speakers. You'll saturate the transformers long before you can do any damage to the diaphragms.