@curtdr
Welcome to the world of high end audio. Many of us started with highly skeptical thoughts on effects of various components. Then pretty quickly ran into objective reality… it doesn’t conform to logical thought. Power cords, interconnects, cables make small to huge differences. I was a practicing scientist when I first got into high end audio and quickly learned to listening to determine what made a difference and what didn’t. Hint, it all does.
My $17K to $22K Audio Research products ship with heavy duty 20 amp power cords. Replacing with a number of good quality power cords made large improvements in the sound. I spent nearly a year finding the best, and it was worth the effort. My system sounds significantly (and cost effectively) better.
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@soix
I'm not missing the fact that an expensive power cord adds to cost.
I am extremely skeptical that the power cord supplied with a Marantz Ruby, to continue the example, is a detriment at all to its audible performance.
Hey, if it makes one feel better to swap out a cord to a more expensive one, well then do it and feel better. That's fine, I guess... but I don't believe it's a wise efficient use of funds when it comes to upgrading for sonic performance, unless it's the one thing that would make one feel better, sleep better, whatever, and that's on you and it's fine.
However, I stand by my overall message of high skepticism, except maybe in extreme cases of crappy or lower level products in the first place but then why would anybody invest more into an inferior poorly-designed overall product? If the power cord is a problem, why would you trust the product or the company in the first place?
I suppose one possibility, but it would be a relatively rare one, is if there is some extraordinary electrical weirdness in your home and you need some sort of super shielding, but I've lived in many places of this country in a variety of towns and cities and have never seen it personally except for one house where I had subwoofer hum. And, if you do detect weirdness, try just plugging in to a different plug, which is a simple solution that instantly solved a subwoofer hum problem that I used to have when watching TV. I just used a modest "indoor/outdoor" extension cord of adequate length to get the subwoofer onto a separate circuit in the house, a plug controlled by a different breaker than the TV was on, and voila, problem solved.
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OK, so how about this: you bought a great amp from a reputable company and they sent you a power cord with it... HOW ABOUT just use THAT one? Would Marantz send an inferior cord with the Ruby? I don’t think so.
@curtdr The answer is yes, they would and do. You’re missing the fact that after retail markups including a better PC would add significantly to the price of a product. Plus, cables are also notoriously system dependent, so it’s possible that an expensive PC wouldn’t synergize with a customer’s system/tastes so they would’ve paid all that extra cash for nothing. Then there’s that more serious audiophiles often have their own preferences for PCs and would likely never use the cord that came with the equipment. For all these reasons it makes sense for a manufacturer to include a cheap cable that’s good enough to do at least do justice to the equipment and let the customer choose what PC works best for their tastes/system. If you were right then manufacturers would be providing better PCs with their products, but they don’t. I’m not aware of any that do and everything I’ve bought has come with the generic black cord. Have you ever seen a manufacturer at an audio show power their products with a generic black cord? I think not. They pay a lot of $$$ to have their equipment at shows, so if the generic black cord was their best option they’d use it to show their products at their absolute best, but they don’t. Hmmm.
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pennfootball71, I change some of my AC Cable positionning, and your tests reveal me something, I wonder if the difference is not necessarely the brand, but also the lenght, a 1.5 m is better than a 1 m on my power bar. Thank you.
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I remember reading an interview with an upmarket cord manufacturer. Asked whether high priced wiring really sounded better - he said
"Yes, in the same way your car drives better after it has been washed and cleaned"
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I completely get why it’s tough to make sense of things when it comes to HiFi. I get it; I have an engineering background, and nothing in HiFi makes sense. In this hobby common sense does not apply, and is often inaccurate. The fact that a USB cable transmitting 1’s and 0’s can make difference is absolutely preposterous to me, even moreso than the fact that power cords matter. A system assembled through a practical, common sense approach will not get you far, in my experience.
To me this hobby is all about using your ears, preferably through objective, double-blind testing of one component at a time, on the right type of system that will reveal differences the component being tested makes, is what ultimately matters in this hobby. It is all that matters in this hobby. Other than your budget!
it is important to validate results through double blind testing if at all possible. If not possible, I know enough to distrust my own perceptions enough to really question what I think I am hearing, and only make an assessment after many weeks of comparisons. Many prefer to use a new component for weeks or even months, before going back to validate the difference it makes. A/B testing is SO difficult because human auditory memory is absolutely terrible. By the time you’ve connected a new component your perception of what you just heard before will absolutely have shifted. It’s even worse if someone talks to you between tests. That’s why double blind testing is so efficient and effective. If you’ve not gone through this process, you are left only with common sense, and the rules that govern our world do not apply to HiFi. Those who apply common sense will disagree, of course!
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@boxer12 - Color me deeply skeptical.
I don't believe those companies, or any mid to high enders, would scrimp on the power cord if such a scrimp degraded sound quality, especially of their top models but really mostly through the line. Certainly somebody along the line, in the engineering team or quality control or otherwise, would have spoken up if after all the care and expertise they took in designing a product such as the Marantz Ruby... or take your pick, Accuphase 480, Luxman, whatever.. then the supplied power cord degraded all that work??? I don't think so. They wouldn't pick a random cord and throw it on. They would use one that works and works well without degrading the capabilities of the machine.
If you are bothered by a 5' or 6' cord as too long or too short, well I can see swapping out the cord and making sure you get one at least the equivalent of the supplied cord, to get one of a length you need and leave it at that, if you are concerned with cable management and want to tidy everything up. But as for sound quality upgrade? Nope, I don't believe it.
Some may call me naive, and some might call me critically skeptical: take your pick.
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@curtdr - They are only inferior if you're concerned about sound quality. But to your point... Stock power cables will certainly power up the component.
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OK, so how about this: you bought a great amp from a reputable company and they sent you a power cord with it... HOW ABOUT just use THAT one?
Would Marantz send an inferior cord with the Ruby? I don't think so. Would Hegel or Arcam or Anthem or anybody else with any kind of engineering and reputation send you an amp with a power cord that detracts from the amps performance? I don't think so.
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Wow, never considered cable length to factor in; dumb luck that most of my power cables are 2 meters long. More noticeable than comparing different cables, was getting dedicated power to the equipment. This was an immediate and noticeable change.
(1) I have a dedicated 20AMP circuit to a PS Audio PowerPort plug, with Pangea Audio AC9 SE MkII (Cardas copper) cable driving a Denafrips Thallo amplifier.
(2) I have the same set up feeding a Panamax M5300-PM conditioner, and Pangea Audio AC14 SE MkII (Cardas copper) cables feeding the low current devices.....only exception is a Cullen Cable C7 cable feeding a BlueSound Node 130
At some point will get around to swapping in various recepticles and power cables
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@twoleftears
Yep, totally agree. Just sharing what I’d heard some years back.
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4 meter PCs from Nordost will definitely optimize profits for Nordost. Not sure about the sound though.
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Not done any real testing with cable length.
I remember many years ago that Steve from Empirical Audio saying that a USB cable needs to be either very short OR 1.5 meters or greater to avoid what I think I recall him saying as "reflections" on the cable. This correlates with what the OP was experiencing with USB as well.
Also I seem to recall that the prior head guy at Nordost said that power cables were best at 4M. Seems to jive with what @ghdprentice was saying above. Me, I'd rather keep them about the length needed so I don't have a rats nest of cables behind my equipment and that makes it much easier to dress them and keep them apart as much as possible.
It would be a fun exercise to experiment, but most of us don't have the $$ needed to buy two of every cable to do the experimentation. Just my thoughts.
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But I am getting older and have a greater interest in getting to the final system in my lifetime.
@ghdprentice Ha! We can dream I suppose.
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@ghdprentice , good luck. If you can swing it, I do recommend the Firebird or Dragon cords. Hurricanes do sound very good as well, but I find there is more air and more of a 3D presentation of instruments and vocals with the higher end cords. That said, I found no other differences other than that between the highest two cords and the Hurricanes.
I’ll ask my dealer for some demo cords, but I try not to do this unless I intend to buy. I doubt they will agree, as in the past Audioquest has had to manufacture their higher end demo cords just so I could try them (which I ended up purchasing).
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OP,
Great question on having two, two meter cords, or two one meter one cords.
That sounds like one that is going to be system dependent. If you can, get your dealer to loan you enough cords to figure it out. I would get a 1 meter for the power conditioner and a two meter for the amp. But I am getting older and have a greater interest in getting to the final system in my lifetime.
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@nyev
Two of the 3 amps in my system do require independently a 20 amp breaker service. First can do a healthy 1500 4 Ohm watts at 0.01% THD, weighs in at 136 pounds. Second a healthy 1400 4 Ohm watts at 0.05 THD, weighing in at 95 pounds. The reason for multiple 20 amp breaker services…I’m wiring anyway, do it then I don’t have to think about any order plugging things in.
Cheers
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Ideal power cord lengths?
My two monoblock amplifiers sound fantastic without power cords. That said, I did an AC mains tweak eliminating the power cord and wall plug from my two monoblock amps, by installing the female IEC C13 plug onto the direct line from the electrical panel into the male IEC inlet of the power amp. Previous power cords were 12'' long, 12AWG. The two direct lines to the monoblock amps are 10 AWG BX/AC cable. Ideal power cord lengths for my amps would be no power cord. Your lengths may vary! 😎
Mike
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Thanks again @ghdprentice , and your results are consistent with what I’ve seen others report.
When I was trialing the Niagara 5000 I definitely sound my amp preferred to be plugged directly into my second dedicated line as well. But I ended up with a Torus RM-20 and it’s better with everything including my amp plugged into that.
I guess my question with conditioners is if the positive effect of a single 2m cord is reproduced by two 1m cords with a conditioner in the middle. And, if having two 2m cords with a conditioner is too much cord and makes things worse. It doesn’t sound like you have the components needed to perform such a test. But you answered the first part of my original post, so thanks again!
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OP,
Your welcome… I learned something as well. (Every thing matters and more money, more better… oh, I already knew that.)
I have two direct lines. One for my power conditioner and one for my amp. I found plugging an amp into a power conditioner has never been a good thing for me… and that is the rule of thumb. Amp direct to the wall.
My amp is most effected by power cord changes of all my components. I have a good power conditioner, but it does not allow power cord changes.
Judging by the fact that virtually all power conditioners allow and frequently place really high end cords on them… I would say it is likely to make a substantial difference as you are going to be effecting most of your components.
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@ghdprentice , finally, someone who tried the comparison! Thank you…. What I am also interested in however is how power cord length factors in when you have a second cord that powers a conditioner. For your test, were you testing your Hurricanes connected to a conditioner (and if so how long is the cord feeding it?), or were you connecting your Hurricanes direct to wall?
I’m curious as to whether 1m to conditioner and 1m to component is ideal, or if 2m in both spots would be better (or worse). Thanks again. Good to hear some results after all the bluster (which I admit to have found to be amusing) on this thread.
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My 68 Z28 will suck the headlight's out of your Prius.
audioquest is like the Chevy of this game unless you spend big money for their solid silver 10 grand Dragon cables. They are nice.
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As a follow up. I switched back to my Audio Research REF 160s. First listening to my 1 meter Audio Quest Hurricane power cord for a couple hours. Then switched to the 2 meter Audio Quest Hurricane. I was really hoping not to hear a difference… since I own the 1 meter power cord. But I do.
The shorter cord provides a bit more immediate and forceful sound but a little reduced soundstage and soundstage depth. The longer is overall better sounding. I would call the longer more detailed and refined. Darn.
So, of course, is it worth the extra cost and extra cord in back? I have to say, absolutely yes for me.
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So no for Audioquest…They use the least amount of copper I mean we are talking. 13 gauge stuff. It’s very expensive for the little amount of material they give you. My favorite affordable power cable is $550 Shunyata Venom V10.
audioquest is like the Chevy of this game unless you spend big money for their solid silver 10 grand Dragon cables. They are nice.
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Wow @pennfootball71 , thanks. Impressed you have those recommended lengths by vendor at your fingertips!
Would you know of the ideal length for Audioquest? And, how those recommended lengths might vary if you have one cord for a conditioner and a second from the conditioner to your components? Would it be the vendor’s recommended length, or half that because there are effectively two in series?
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Power cables need capacitance…Long ones have more.
you can even measure that!
shunyata ideal length is 1.75M.
voodoo 2meters
wireworld 3 M
you see they all vary
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No amp will draw more than a few amps continuously. You definitely have RMS current covered with your full house of 12AWG! And your breakers won’t trip as all they care about is RMS. Heck 20A breakers are overkill for RMS current demands of your amp!
Seems odd that Audioquest rates their conditioner models by the amount of current they can provide instantaneously for up to 25ms, with their top TWO models able to supply up to 90A for up to 25ms? Very odd, hmmm, I wonder why….
Again @1971gto455ho you have RMS current demands of your system totally covered, no issues there! Instantaneous (peak) current must totally be made up by AudioQuest as a marketing ploy, I’m certain! You’ve convinced me. Dammit, wish I didn’t spend those extra few bucks on my beefy, low-resistance, high-current capable 10AWG wire… ;)
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Correction to my last post folks, the tabs not gangs were cut on the Receptacle outlets…now I feel better 😎
Cheers
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However long you need them…wow!
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@nyev
I gather your using a 30 amp breaker with your 10 gauge line, and your amp is of a size that requires that hefty feed ? That is highly unlikely. Or perhaps your entire system runs off of a single 10 gauge line ? I’ve 4 outlets with cut gangs so each socket has a 12 gauge service. That’s 8 moderately bendable wires and a total of 160 amps of breaker protection. In poker that would be called a full house, shuffle the cards will ya...
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Did "we" come up with a preferred PC length?
My unused PC's are all tangled up with my Liberty of London Paisely Tie Collection, so I thought that I might simply buy some new (untangled) ones.
DeKay
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@1971gto455ho , no, that stuff is not what makes the real difference. I’ll let you in on my secret: all the magic all is in my beefy 10AWG AC lines…. WAY better than wimpy 12 or 14 AWG!
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What a load of… we are supposed to think there is crosstalk created by units transferring noise from now internal DC Back to AC line in…now works its way back into other AC lines in ? Not to be nasty but that is the biggest pile of electrical rubbish I’ve read yet. This form is fun I just can’t believe the Collection of unsubstantiated BS that gets slung around.
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OP, Glad to hear you get sucked into listening to your system. Hence a great time so carefully choose the details. I struggled getting my power cord correct for my amp for a year, long after getting all my components correct.
If I were you I would start by getting the brand correct. I swapped every level of Cardas, one level of Transparent, WireWorld Silver, DH Labs and was not happy with any. Then my dealer brought over a Audio Quest Hurricane. The difference was simply amazing… it was completely right… the perfect balance of detail and highly refined bass.
I realize in writing this I have a 1m and 2m Audio Quest Hurricane and a Audio Research Reference 160s amp. So, I have what it takes to do the experiment. I’ll see if I can get motivated to switch amps and do some testing. My REF160s has not been used for 8 months so it is going to need some additional break in. But maybe I’ll give it a go.
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@bigtwin , The end of the chain is the most important. It’s a filter for all the noise on the public grid. Both for THD noise coming into your system and eventually manifesting in your speakers. And as a blocker for noise generated by your gear that goes back out to your AC lines which your other gear can pick up. The theory is that the longer the end cable feeding your gear, the greater the filtering effect. Which at a point becomes detrimental…
THD is measurable with meters, and it doesn’t magically disappear - it shows up in your speakers if you don’t deal with it with conditioners and/or power cords….
I know it’s an unpopular concept for those who have not conducted blind tests…. On a relatively resolving system, with good quality speaker wire, that is. Otherwise you may very well hear no difference in which case your priorities should be elsewhere…
As an aside, I do think the prices for premium cabling is stupid…. But I guess it’s simply an effect of supply and demand.
Not trying to convince anyone, at all. This debate has been raging for 25 year or longer! I doubt it will ever be put to rest with consensus reached.
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If you really think you can hear the difference one meter of cable makes at the end of the electrical chain, then why not go all the way and install a Tesla Wall Battery system and cut out the electric grid all together. Would seem the only solution that will satisfy.
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I've audtioned and diy built many PC's over the years, I can't recall a single experience where I put differences down to length of PC, and this from a person who regularly changes out things like capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc, and does hear differences with these items.
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Some great answers here! So funny! Made my morning.
Abraham Lincoln was 6’4” or 5” back when the average man was almost a foot shorter than that. He was asked ideally how long should a man’s legs be & his response was “long enough to reach the ground”…..
First, assuming the circuits are dedicated to the music system, I suspect the length of the circuit feed wire in the walls from the electric panel & their proximity to other potentially deleterious interferences has a much greater effect than a meter difference in a good quality power cord. Additionally, I have experienced better sound at night in some homes I lived in probably due to both lower overall ambient noise but also cleaner, more stable electric power due to generally less usage in my own home & perhaps the grid in general.
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I built all of my power cords myself to lengths that kept the clutter down as much as possible behind my racks. None are the same length. The ones to my conditioner and amps are heavier gauge. No clue if there is a difference over the factory supplied. I just wanted some nice cords.
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I have never had any difference in sound from different lengths in power cords or interconnects for that matter. In regards to digital interconnects, I have a .5m analysis plus golden oval from my dac to to pre amp and a 1.5m nordost Valhalla from the bluos node back to the dac. All sounds fine, although I understand nordost recommends a 1.5 m for their digital cables.
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I suggest you get cords that are long enough to get from the outlet to the device you are powering.
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@nyev I recall having read that there was a minimum length for power cords, and that would be roughly 1,5m. Under that length some of the benefits would be lost. I just go with that recommandation every time I buy a power cord, but I haven't directly compared.
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@tablejockey, I actually know of specific people doing this in the US! Or at least, convincingly local power companies to upgrade their pole transformer at their cost! I do draw the line somewhere, and some point long before this type of upgrade….
That said, I hear it definitely helps!
I’m not planning on going out and buying more cables of differing lengths. It’s more just a curiosity to me, based on a few experiences I noted above. Seriously, if you have a highly resolving system with upgraded cables, especially speaker cables, if you can manage to get a high quality 1m USB cord and the same cord in a 2m version, I think you will be shocked at the difference.
As I said I’m not stressing at all over my system or the next upgrade. I’m totally happy with my system, to the extent I want to learn more about it, the impact of components including cable lengths. Looks like no one really has had the direct experience of objective comparisons. I just love obsessing over this stuff. I’m FINALLY through with always trying to fix some sort of sonic fault in my system. Any change from now on would only be to improve something, rather than to fix something, which is just awesome. That said I’m just mesmerized by how awesome my system sounds as-is. All thanks to that 10AWG wire in my wall, surely!!!
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@nyev: I guess your equipment now is placed in the hallway, 2m from your fuse box?
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@nyev I just added a 1m Audioquest Hurricane powering my Puritan PSM-156 power conditioner and it sucks!!!! It’s causing me to stay up until 3am listening and I’m totally sleep deprived at this point. It must be the 1m length that’s at fault here hahahaha.
Seriously dude you’ve built an awesome system. Just sit down for a listen and enjoy it. Good components (which is what you have) don’t give a crap about power cord length. Don’t overthink it.
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Why does no one run rack mount Lithium batteries with an ATS during listening? For the amount that’s spent on cables and PC’s this could easily be accomplished and I would wager would yield an indisputable sonic difference.
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Yes to PC's but you must include this
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