I heard the Box

I don't hear a box with my tannoys, and they are very large boxes...

"I can't seem to unheard it."

That's funny!

That's one reason people flipped when they first heard the Quad ESL in 1957. I wasn't old enough at that time; for me it happened when I heard the Infinity Servo-Static in 1971, followed by the Magneplanar Tympani in '72.

True, but after the initial thrill of the different sound that electrostatics and other panel speakers have, you later realize that for all of their considerable strengths, they have their limitations too. It's all about the kind of colorations that you can live with. 

Honestly I think you get used to the sound of the box listening to so many box speakers throughout your audio life.  I never thought I could hear the box until I finally purchased spatial audio x5 open baffle speakers.  Once you hear a properly designed open baffle speaker it's hard to go back to a conventional box speaker for me.  YMMV but I know I will most likely never go back to a box speaker.  

@roxy54 , The only limitation a modern ESL has is in the very low bass. They will do it but it knocks the wind out of them. With subwoofers it is a whole different story. Not only will they go louder than most systems but they are as dynamic as any horn system. 

I think most of us who have been smitten by line source dipoles are loth to return to "box" speakers. After switching to ESLs from Allison 1's in 1978 I have never looked back. Since, I have had Tympanys, Apogee Divas, Acoustat 2+2s twice then my current Sound Labs where I plan to stay for the duration. 

I think if you start with a speaker as good as the Maggie 3.7i you will never look back. If you want more volume there is the 20.7 followed by the jump to Sound Labs. Less expensive dipoles and open baffle speakers have compromises that might make enclosed speakers preferable to some. Also, the science behind enclosures has advanced dramatically in the last 20 years. There are some very good point source speakers out there. 

Research "Tekna Sonic" vibration control panels. These devices stick to the sides of your boxy speakers and convert vibration into heat.
Long out of production, these need to make a comeback.

That is why some companies go to extremes to ’eliminate’ enclosure’s effect (i.e., Magico)

After listening to Townshend F1 speaker cables and interconnects I now am aware a lot of the sound of other wire is resonance coloring the sound of those wires. Pretty much all of them. After listening to Townshend Pods and Podiums it is now clear a lot of what we near from speakers and components is actually the stuff they are sitting on. It rings and this resonance gets back into the signal coloring the music. Immediately upon upgrading my crossovers it was apparent a huge amount of what I have heard from every other speaker anywhere ever was flattened, dulled, and distorted by the cheap crossover components everyone uses. When my panel was redone it was mind-blowing how much grunge is everywhere.

I never really got what people meant by cable elevators, until I tried them and now can never unheard that either. One time I left my system on all day, everything even the tubes, then listened late at night when everything sounds better, and now I can never unhear that.

Just thought I would share all this since we are like brothers, being able to remember what we hear. So many audiophiles claim not to be able to hear anything, or remember anything, they need instantaneously scientifically verified double-blind random interweb doubt rectification validation to even begin to consider maybe something could be different and just maybe possibly not just snake-oiltation bias. I always dreamed of meeting another who can actually hear these things. Even though it means you are like me doomed forevermore to the hell of hearing and remembering.

How will we ever cope with this horrible affliction? Guess we will just have to muddle along somehow. Just please, for now, give me a few more weeks of blissful ignorance before Rick comes and makes me acutely painfully aware of how horribly boxy my boxes sound.

It could be the floor more than the box you hear if floor is suspended plywood in which case use isolation pads or similar. 

Some speakers were just that way and some are not but you will know when you get a speaker that does not image inside the box because your whole wall is the stage not just the little area between the speakers.

Not directed at anyone, 

The box sounds different than one would think. When I hear the box the sound stage collapses. Not some boxy sound. I think port noise is sometimes confused with the box flexing and making noise. 

I auditioned Martin Logan ELS versus their Motion 60's.  Talk about hearing the box!  It appeared as soon as the 60's were switched in.  It makes you wonder if the ELS designers and the Motion designers live on the same planet!

And it's got nothing to do with expensive wires or platforms, that's just more elitist audiophile hogwash.

jnorris2005, you should not insult hogs like that!

After boxes, english
esl s
its now ob
lii crystal 10 and w15
so far so good

...hard to tell hogs from merely swine....but just an ubsurdvation from this one....;)

Hearing the box is just the nature of the beast with box speaker vs open baffle designs.  And the way to hear the difference between boxed and open baffle is to do an A-B comparison.   And bring along a few tracks from a live recording in a concert hall.  My reference track is from Harry Belafonte's Carnegie hall concert.  The differences will be quite revealing.  Once you hear the box, it is hard to unhear it.   And the only solution is to go open baffle, or at least some hybrid combination like electrostatics and subs, or something like the Dalhquist DQ10.

"...blissful ignorance..."

Sanctuary.....until upset...  ;)

Not unusual....enjoy the upset. *s*

At the time the Dynaco speakers were popular, people expected to hear the box. Or maybe a better way to put it is that we didn’t expect NOT to hear the box. At that time, we bought a hifi system and expected it only to play records or cassettes in a loud and clear manner, as opposed to the absolute transparency and realism many of us expect from modern systems. Our expectations were lower and I don’t recall being disappointed with any of my older systems prior to my foray into the high end. IMO, that’s why some people with very high end systems sometimes have an additional vintage system in their office or wherever. It allows them to relax and just enjoy the music without the self-imposed pressure of getting everything perfect. Sort of like listening to a very good radio.  You just expect to hear music and that's what you get. 

SO, what does the box actually sound like?  Not sure if I have heard it, but maybe.

. Oh no. I don’t think I can take hearing *the floor* after ’hearing the box’.

It’s the common double whammy that few can survive.

As we say in Maggie world...once you go flat, you never go back.

Once you go Tekton Design, you are wrecked for all time.

Having owned a couple pairs of magnepans I can say they do have their strengths. But after a while, the lack of dynamics and reasonable bass response and punch left me wanting more. If you are "hearing the box", you bought the wrong box.

Oz

millercarbon9,636 posts
I always dreamed of meeting another who can actually hear these things.

Chuck, one thing has always cast doubt on your superior hearing abilities for me. It’s your claim that there is no difference between the sound of different tubes. I can’t understand how someone who can hear the difference between his cable elevators with and without rubber bands can’t hear the difference between a current production Russian made Mullard, a vintage Telefunken and a vintage Amperex, for example. Maybe you’ve changed your mind about that. Have you?

If you don’t want to hear boxes there are other choices.  It’s not the end of the world. 

Some very revealing ideas here thanks!

Chayro seems to have addressed my question most accurately-Thanks!

Some further background:
-My main Speakers are big Tannoy Monitors and I do have
 not heard a box influence. They are 180 lbs each and I listen
 at 60-70db max so not much resonance.
-Floor is concrete slab 
-EV model is not ported

Gaulke60-
What does "Hearing the Box" actually sound like?
A bit like the sound you would hear if you were using your hands on the sides of your mouth to extend the volume of speech.
If your hands were made of wood. 

Agree about open Baffle sound. But it seems the space to the back wall needs to about double vs a non-dipole design. This dictates the need for a larger room, correct?

If it’s a box speaker you are always hearing the box to some extent. It is there for a reason of course.
Safe to say in general the boxes used for good quality speakers have come a long way.
There is more than one way to use a box. For an example check out Ohm Walsh speakers. Those manage to use the box only for the things it helps with ie low frequencies. Mbl is similar in that way. Also a number of full range horn designs like Avantegarde.

tomc6-
Chuck, one thing has always cast doubt on your superior hearing abilities for me. It’s your claim that there is no difference between the sound of different tubes. I can’t understand how someone who can hear the difference between his cable elevators with and without rubber bands can’t hear the difference between a current production Russian made Mullard, a vintage Telefunken and a vintage Amperex. Maybe you’ve changed your mind about that. Have you?

First, that "I've always dreamed" line was teasing.

But as for tubes, Whoa, whoa, whoa! No way I ever said that!

Not even. What I said is tube rolling is a crapshoot - IF that is all you are doing. I stand by that comment. If all you are doing is trying tubes hoping to find ones that will sound better, well they are out there but your chances of finding "the one" are so low you are much better off to put your time and money and effort into things with a lot higher chance of actually making a positive improvement. There are a lot of such things, and for a lot less money. Tube prices are all over the place, but a guy could easily spend $500 tube rolling and in the end have nothing to show for it but some nice backups. While that same $500 could buy a Fuse, some ECT or HFT, some Cable Elevators- or a power cord, any number of things, each of which will be a lot better than the tubes.

But, and this is an important but, this all depends on what you mean by tube rolling. I'm assuming the normal, "Hey guys what do you think?" approach. Waste of time and money. Which is in total contrast to what I am doing now, talking with Dave Thomas of Raven, a guy who totally knows his tubes. Whole different ball game.

I think you will agree this is a lot more refined and sophisticated view than saying there's no difference between tubes. I've said all along there definitely are differences. Heck, I recommend JJ for their great sound quality and reliability at a good price. So I know there are differences in sound quality, because I have heard them. 

So I have no problem hearing differences between tubes. No problem picking the best ones either. Only problem I have is the shotgun approach. Rifle and scope, I am all over it. Why I'm calling Dave Thomas. Literally. Left him another message just before writing this.

OK. I’m glad to hear that your position on tubes has evolved

Just to make sure that my memory hasn’t become entirely unreliable, I did a quick search and came across this post:

millercarbon9,639 posts05-07-2019 2:01pm

I’ve tried a bunch over the years. Save your money. There’s differences sure but once you get past noisy/old to good/new I just don’t think the remaining differences are worth much. Especially when you can get a whole lot more improvement from something like a Synergistic Research Blue Quantum Fuse or a set of ECTs. Either of which cost about what a set of tubes will run you but you get a lot more improvement and unlike the tubes if you don’t like em you just send em back.

Tube rolling Question | Audiogon Discussion Forum

I’m not saying that you didn’t believe what you stated in today’s post back in 2019. I’ll just assume you didn’t have time for the more nuanced reply you made today. I agree with your assertion that it’s best to seek out knowledgeable help when rolling tubes. Tubes have gotten expensive.

I do think that tubes offer at least as much potential improvement as other tweaks such as fuses. Tweaking is very system and listener dependent. Fuses might be the way to go in one system, tubes in another.

"Design and "time" don’t rhyme. It’s close though (both words share the long "i" sound, but the "n" and "m" are dissimilar), which is why in the world of songwriting that is considered a "lazy" rhyme (with no pejorative intent).

How ’bout "Once you go Tekton Design, your music sounds divine"? ;-)

Only the A-25 in Walnut veneer offered boxless sonics…..
I have a pair in the garage , itself…. A box

Pianos, guitars, basses are all boxes, more or less, and wooden.  A well designed box is a work of art, a cheap one not so much.  British speakers of the BBC heritage, like my graham audio boxes, are designed with the box in mind, not to silence them into submission.  Perhaps a little ‘boxy’ but musical and natural to my ears.

Now I know what to listen to tonight, Boxy Music, The Space Between, filled with batting. While My Port Is Still Beating is pretty good too.

chorus, do you know the model of the Tannoys you are using?

millercarbon, I think you have that backwards. You have to be wrecked to like Tektons.

If everyone would limit themselves to rock music, there'd be no realism issue.  All rock music originates from amplified boxes when played live anyway!

BTW my rebuilt Maggie 3.3rs with a pair of DWM woofers and 2 REL subs have quite a bit of bass and dynamics.  They don't like brickwalled recordings -- I have various tower speakers that seem to do better with that -- but there's no denying the beauty of the Maggies.

If everyone would limit themselves to rock music, there’d be no realism issue.

Au contrere, mon frere. Just look how important acoustical instruments are to rock.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVsQLlk-T0s

Mijo,

My Tannoys are FSMs. This is an acronym of "Fine Studio Monitors".
Built from 1985-1990. Only the British would try that sort of snobbery.

They are currently awaiting the attention of Danny Ritchie
in Wichita, TX. Hence I am trying these "Filler" speakers and
bitching about them.

Good news is that for the past 5 days I have swapped out the Electro Voice speakers for a pair of DCM TF600s. A breath of fresh air as the box be gone. Sadly so is the mid and upper range. 

Next week I am going JBL.