How competitive are you with your system?

toddalin     My computer is not connected to my stereo.

My system is not connected to comp nor internet. I make a copy to a memory stick in computer and play it to Oppo USB input. Alex/WTA

toddalin said:

When I listen to music, I don’t transport to the venue, but rather transport the venue to the room. A deader room would put me more at the venue.

When I do videos they tend to be brighter than what I hear on the couch because my head is typically back to the cushion and the mic stands "proud" away from the cushions. Even moving your head forward a few inches relative to the back of the couch causes major change to the frequency balance.

Mr Boochie said:

This recording business is a part of audio that I never put effort into before. It is a much different world from playback.

The mic’s position is critical. A few inches, up or down in relationship to the midrange/tweeter and woofers, can make a notable difference in the recording. You don’t hear it in real time, but it appears in the recording.
 

https://youtu.be/PVVwzcXtBNk

Recorded with mics on camera. They are too high = muddy mix, shifted to the high frequencies. Bass dynamics are hurt the most by poor mic placement and room acoustics. Mics were at 8-foot distance from the speakers. 54 inches off the ground.
___________________
 

https://youtu.be/PVVwzcXtBNk

Close mic’ing (mics at 18 inches from the front of the speakers and 22 inches in height).

In my experience, ensuring the mics are well supported and isolated from speaker vibrations helps clarity. They pick up extraneous vibrations that muddy or add artificial brightness.
 

BTW, Mr Boochie uses, and these are recordings of JBL L300 speakers.

My computer is not connected to my stereo.  It has it's own monitor system.

I suppose that I could download a track to a drive and plug that into the dongle of my Oppo, but I've not set it up to do this.

Pick something else that is out there, preferably in SACD and if I have it, we'll give it a go.

On another note, I know that you are somewhat local and are welcome to come over and hear first hand.  I'm in the North Tustin area.  Only that way will you experience the soundstage, imaging, and microdetail that are possible at realistic levels that envelop one.

My recordings always come out bright because I sit back into the sofa and the camera stands proud so we don't quite hear the same thing.  And I use a Nikon D750 DSLR, because that's what I have and it does a decent job.

toddalin   ~~ If I had this track, I would do a demo (dogs allowing of course).  But I don't and I don't stream.

I love to hear other systems. I downloaded Fink - Trouble's What You're In with free YT download app. You can do same. Fink is 21mb. Can I send this file to you in Agon?  Alex/Wavetouch audio

@gano ...always, everywhere, and anything can be improved in some fashion....or with the major application of ca$h which can vary wildly in audio.
This variance is due imho to speaker selection v. the space the drivers are in v. the end listeners' ears that are wired to preferences that vary more than the means of presenting such...

Short of DNA transfers to specifics....no middle ground, just muddled mud. *L*

Your best will always be looked down upon by some, yet may be a level some still strive for.

It's been a long while since I've heard someone else's system....which does absolve me from having to be diplomatic in my comments....

Who told you masking the issue is a priority? 

@kennyc 

i admit my question about why people respond to this thread is somewhat specious.  But I still think a good many people compare their systems to others’.

I gave these YouTube clips another listen, on my system this time.

We all have different tastes but to me, the Thiel and Avantgarde systems are clear front-runners. I have little doubt the Montemar would sound fantastic in the right room, whereas the Focal seem confused and overwhelmed by theirs. The PMC's bass sounds surprisingly flabby, although they may have a physicality in real life that's absent from the video but might tip the scales in their favor.

You might be right. Tho whether dubbed or live recording, Thiel - FINK sounds really grainy and rough. Listen to  Thiel - FINK for 2 minutes. And listen Wavetouch audio - FINK . I can hear WT forever w/out hurting ears.

toddalin   I don’t agree.  I can hear the room.  I can also hear a resonance in the room not on the original.  But it is well treated compared to most..

Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded

because you asked:

Do you try to rank your system with others’?    

@rvpiano - you’re wrongly assuming audiophiles typically have the same “comparison” urges as you do.

With “ranking”, one assumes good/better/best.  But after a lot of demos at audio stores and shows I’ve come to the conclusion that there are many great sounding components/systems, but it’s subjective “personal preference” that we strive for - we are not in competition with others who’s preferences don’t match our own.  For instance, I’ve tried very hard demoing many Wilson speakers, but it never “resonated” (drew me into the music) with me unlike Magico, YG, and MBL.  Comparison to others does nothing to help me further the Sonics I like

I do use variety to change it up: various MC carts, SPUs, and a second flea watt system to check out tube magic, and a desktop system.

Mihorn, I don’t agree.  I can hear the room.  I can also hear a resonance in the room not on the original.  But it is well treated compared to most.

https://youtu.be/lDJP95aZ9L8

As I noted, any variation from the direct cut is a distortion.  But we can choose our distortions to suit our wallets and tastes.

I have a somewhat lively room (~5,000 cu ft) that is untreated, though the windows on two sides have blackout blinds, and when I listen, I choose to move the venue to the room rather than moving myself to the venue.  I use no eq or room correction, either electronic or physical.  When I do a video, the effects of the room become readily obvious when one listens to the direct cut.  Sure it’s a distortion, but not so bothersome.

If I had this track, I would do a demo (dogs allowing of course).  But I don't and I don't stream.

@rvpiano, as always, I hope and wish you well. No question, that there is a competitive, mine is bigger than yours, attitude amongst many of us here, in this industry, and many other industries. Men, and women. Just reading the posts here tell you that. All of the "know it alls". All of the "experienced". All of the "attitudes". The world is competitive, and imo, many people are struggling, in one way or another. Some monetarily, some physically, some mentally, some socially and, some, many of them. I rely on my system to provide me, and me alone, the ability to hear my favorites musicians, playing wonderful compositions, in my home, through recordings. An incredible technology. My mom would have to go and see Frank Sinatra, to hear him. I have a sizable F.S. collection (I am now looking to get into streaming). The only visitors I have are those responding to my local CL to purchase some audio gear. Of course, they want to hear my system and I will oblige them. Admittedly, I do enjoy their faces, as they all close their eyes. Showing off a bit, I suppose....but I am proud of the system I have put together. People are too much into the "sound" of the recordings, making them unhappy, or search out another band aid for improvements. I come from a "live" background, and you need to know, and understand the differences between live and recorded. I accept recorded "graciously", and my speakers are, and have been, the reason (I am very convinced of this). Yes, I have the best damn system!....Enjoy! MrD. 

* We aren’t bashing each other here. We talk about different sound styles. 

I said all your audio systems sound veiled and mine doesn’t. All you asked before why non-a’philes don’t like this great hi-fi sound. The truth is they hear veiled hi-fi sounds correctly and we are using veils as immersive sounds.

You’ve been hearing veiled sound forever that you can’t hear my system correctly in 30 seconds. Your ears are too hardened with harsh sounds. Your ears and brain need some times to hear delicate true organic sounds.

At quick listen of un-natural sounds are splendid and stimulus. I know what happens to those sounds. Merry-go-round upgrade. They may sound good for short time but  no satisfaction.

Thiel - FINK is not live-recording. It’s dubbed. I can’t hear his room. Video is very veiled and I thought it’s live, but no. His dubbing mixer creates much glare. 

Alex/Wavetouch audio

Original - FINK      

Wavetouch audio - FINK 

Focal - FINK ,  PMC - FINK ,  Montemer Horn-FINK ,  Avantgarde -FINK

toddalin     If you want true "high fidelity" you need the equipment and the room to back it up.

Forgotten!

@rvpiano 

 "I was just making an observation that it surprises me how my post engendered so many to answer."

I too am amazed how many Agonrs responded to your somewhat inane question. I'm not trying to add to the discord on this thread. So, oh forget it.

Regards,

barts

high fi·del·i·ty

/ˌhī fəˈdelədē/

noun

noun: high fidelity; modifier noun: high-fidelity

1. the reproduction of sound with little distortion, giving a result very similar to the original.

High fidelity is my goal and it requires reproduction to produce an end result that is very similar to the original.  The original is best demonstrated on a direct transfer and not a recording at someone’s venue.

One can say, "It is the room" or "I am only using 5-1/2" woofers so what do you expect?" but then they cannot consider this as high fidelity because it is unlike the original and therefore a distortion.

If you want true "high fidelity" you need the equipment and the room to back it up.

So, you’re asking me to change my system around because you want it to sound worse!  Better re-examine your priorities.

@rvpiano Now you're diverting from the issues I was referring to and talking about something else. I can discuss 'distortions' all night long, but that's not the point. I'm talking about the cello's timbre and the center hollowness in the MLP recording you prefer. Just take my advice and move your speakers farther apart and listen again. Your current setup, in terms of speaker spacing, is masking the issue and limiting the soundstage. It’s not ideal. It’s not competitive.

@lanx0003  

I’m sure your system sounds magnificent on Mahler’s 2nd Symphony.  
But  the true test of an audio system is how it decodes the bits on all digital recordings.  If all the bits of the decoding are not properly in place there will be distortions.  Not that all recordings are created equally well. Certainly some sound much  better than others.  For many reasons. But distortions are usually caused by deficiencies in the system.

I after numerous Years of expressing a Keen Interest in Audio related matters and not really feeling exposed to an inherent competitiveness from those met, unless in the Corridors of a Industry Trade Show running the gauntlet of Hawkers loitering for their next to be ensnared.

Plenty of Competitive attitudes revealing their presence within those environments.

I have been looking at a Thread that has a undertone that strongly suggests Competitiveness is at large, make ones own mind up, The Jury is Out.

 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whatsbestforum-what-s-going-on?page=3

@rvpiano  My system beautifully decodes the truly magnificent recording of Mahler’s Second Symphony by G. Kaplan I have previously referred, reproducing a live performance with an immersive sound field in my listening space. At the same time, it reveals the flaws in your MLP.

I strongly suggest placing your speakers farther apart to possibly expose the hollowness in the center stage and to expand the soundstage.

@lanx0003 

“My system challenges me to a fight every time i turn it on.”

That was a joke in response to another’s post. Get it?

@stuartk 

My thread doesn’t “disqualify” anyone from posting.  I was just making an observation that it surprises me how my post engendered so many to answer.

@lanx0001 

Conversely, perhaps the inability of  your system to properly decode those tracks reveals a deficiency in your system.  Mercury Living Presence recordings are considered revelatory by most audiophiles.

devinplombier

@mihorn   In the YouTube listening exercise laid out in your above post, the recording of the Thiel 3.7 sounds closest to the Original, followed by the recording of the Avantgarde.

Indeed, Thiel and AG are very good. And I hope you like Wavetouch too at fraction of their price, size and constraints. I won't argue here which is closer to the original and pleasant to listen to. Everyone has his opinion. Let's back to the regular scheduled program. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Weird. Yes I agree. For myself I have a listening environment that gives me much enjoyment, relaxation, fun and something I look forward to do, listen to music in all its wonderful glory and nuances. Why would I want to bring competition into it? It seems to me…to be counterproductive. I have been part of groups including other audiophiles who are really tremendous and cool. We listen and enjoy and sometimes share advice, often we offer unfamiliar artists and songs to explore new music. Above all we enjoy our time with the music. If I were really into competition or ranking, I wouldn’t really be able to enjoy the hobby the way I do. As for others who have a competitive nature, try something different and just enjoy the music??

@rvpiano 

Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded.

Curiosity is different from competitiveness. In addition, I believe one can enjoy improving their system based on what gear and new innovations are out there, as well as their own budget, without viewing it as a competition with others.

@lanx0003 said,

In my opinion, your goal should be to assess how closely your system can reproduce the sound of a live performance on stage.

Certainly to each their own but, my goal is for my system to sufficiently allow me to enjoy listening to music in my home.

@rvpiano 

Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded.

I very much doubt there’s anyone here who has never considered how others’ systems sound. I thought the whole focus of your thread was whether it matters and to what degree. For some of us, it simply doesn’t matter much.  And now you’re saying that somehow disqualifies us from participating? Weird. I’ll know to steer clear next time. 

My system challenges me to a fight every time i turn it on.

Are you gladiator? Who are you going to fight with? Why do you wish to pick up the fight?

It’s interesting that the majority of the many people answering the question claim they are not competitive.  Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded.

Just don’t force the issue. Most of the AGs here aren’t interested in competing with each other’s systems. Rather, they respond to posts like this to express their views on what they believe is the right or healthy attitude. In my opinion, your goal should be to assess how closely your system can reproduce the sound of a live performance on stage. The evaluation criteria can include timbre accuracy, tonal balance, soundstage, imaging, detail retrieval, and so on.

That said, my observation suggests that something may be lacking in your system. For example, in a previous thread, you highly praised a particular CD—a compilation of excerpts from various classical masterworks. As I noted at the time, in some tracks the cello timbre seemed off, and the mixing lacked proper center-stage image / focus. The music appeared to come only from the extreme left and right channels. Furthermore, since the CD is just a collection of excerpts, it feels disjointed—something many classical listeners wouldn’t even find appealing.

I didn’t mention all this earlier out of politeness. But if your system is truly as outstanding as you’ve claimed, why didn’t it reveal those flaws to you? Is your setup capable of exposing such deficiencies? If not, I wonder—how competitive is it, really?

I let the sound of my systems speak for themselves. I never hesitate to let others hear their sound qualities, which can be discerned even through audio recordings of them embedded in YouTube videos. In my head, I know where their sound quality ranks & how it compares to others systems I have heard and it is always, in the words of the great Bad Brains, “I Against I”. 

@mihorn 

In the YouTube listening exercise laid out in your above post, the recording of the Thiel 3.7 sounds closest to the Original, followed by the recording of the Avantgarde.

For what it's worth.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I'm not sure it is worthwhile to compare lossy audio of different systems recorded in different rooms by different people with different recording devices and different recording skills; however, the sonic differences between the various videos are striking.

toddalin   --- Mihorn has shown my case. 

  -- Here is the direct transfer:  ttps://youtu.be/CoOp12ayIVg

  -- And wavetouch version: https://youtu.be/lM-vtW-bygs

Ignore soundstage/imaging/separation.  These are not comparable unless close-up micing is used and even then the playback equipment may not support it for what it is in the room.

Where did the bass go??? Where did the harmonics go? Why does it now sound "boxed in" and not open?

Hello,  

The purpose of hi-end audio is recreating the original music. My system recreates the orig music faithfully. My room isn't recording studio. So, my video includes the sound of my room (with minimal acoustic treatment).

My system consists same simple gears at shows and at home for videos. The Show 2021  Microphones in my recording are 6ft from speakers. You can see in this which I speak and record music non-stop. 

Where the bass go? My speakers woofer is 5.25" and goes down to 44hz (-6db) and I like it. When I want more bass, a sub can be added easily - 2024 audio show (w/sub). 

Sound boxed in? Not open? - my system sounds the most neutral, open and cleaner than any system in the world. 

My system's sound-stage and images (especially mid-range) are the most life-like. Compare Wavetouch vs. others below. Every ears are different. You might like different from my liking. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Original - FINK

Wavetouch audio - FINK 

Focal - FINK ,   Thiel - FINK ,  PMC - FINK ,  Montemer Horn-FINK ,  Avantgarde -FINK

Is it not " How System Curious Are You? " in place of 

" How competitive are you with your system? "

I stand by the notion it is curiosity that has been the underlying character trait that has led me to discover and experience a large range of audio systems and as a result at certain time have made extremely influential experiences.

@kennyc 

i sometimes wonder just how my system ranks with other systems, although I’m very happy with the sound I have — think it’s among the best I’ve ever heard. 
 It’s interesting that the majority of the many people answering the question claim they are not competitive.  Why do they bother responding to this thread if it didn’t occur to them at some point how others’ systems sounded.

What matters to me is whether I'm moved by my system.

I’ve had friends with far more costly rigs. They sounded very nice but didn’t actually draw me into the music any more deeply than mine. 

I don’t know how you can compare subjective listening experiences, let alone rate them, especially given that dfferent guys prioritize different aspects of said experience.

Sure, you can do it based on dollars spent. Not anything I’m interested in spending time doing, but as they say, "different strokes".

And how do you account for the fact that spending more doesn’t guarantee better sound? 

Mihorn has shown my case.

Here is the direct transfer:

https://youtu.be/CoOp12ayIVg

And his wavetouch version:

https://youtu.be/lM-vtW-bygs

Load them in separate browsers and listen alternately back and forth at the same volume level.

Ignore soundstage/imaging/separation.  These are not comparable unless close-up micing is used and even then the playback equipment may not support it for what it is in the room.

OK...,  it doesn’t matter what you are listening on if it is decent.

Where did the bass go???

Where did the harmonics go?

Why does it now sound "boxed in" and not open?

The closer one gets to the direct transfer, the higher it scores.

I did not realize that I was supposed to build a system that competed with other. I built it for my listening pleasure 🤦‍♂️

If you think about it, if one were to use AI, they could do a digital rendition of a direct transfer and the recording and have the program "overlay" them looking at any differences in the bits.  The fewer the differences, the higher the score?

I don't know how or why my system got so darned competitive; I'd like to think that it was just an innate flaw in its nature and nothing that I did, but I am sure that it is probably due to mistakes I made when it was in its formative years.

My take is that I think it’s almost impossible not to wonder how your system compares to others’.  I believe it’s human nature. 

Generally speaking, as a principle I avoid comparing to others like the plague.  
When one compares, the creative mind can always find examples of others better than you AND examples of others worst than you.  The former can lead to feelings of envy/resentment, while the later can lead to feelings/attitude of superiority/pridefulness - both to be avoided.

In high-end audio, we strive to build our systems to be subjectively sonically pleasing, realizing that it’s not the same as a live event (reality), but can get very close at times depending on equipment and subject preferences.

@rvpiano - normally, after significant investment in time, resources, and effort, we are supposed to have increasing satisfaction with our systems as we raise subjective sonics in our system building.  I highly suspect it’s not a “comparison” issue with you, but rather a dissatisfaction/disappointment with the Sonics of your current system - if you loved your Sonics, you wouldn’t be looking elsewhere.  If you are disappointed that it doesn’t sound like reality/live music, then you have an unrealistic comparison as audio chains are at best a facsimile of reality, and the quality of recordings are all over the map.  

I'm kind of anti-competitive. 

I see speakers or gear on Stereophile and think "Wow, I've got a better sounding system than that and I only paid 10% of the cost!" 

I don’t care what others think of mine. There’s  likes are no business of mine. 

@cleeds

That’s because you don’t know how to use it.

It will tell you if a system has a smooth frequency response in the room and if there are peaks and nodes (assuming a good recording).

Also, to do this, you need to go back and find the original direct transfer and that is what you are comparing the system too.

You are not listening to "what it sounds like" but rather "how close does it sound to the direct transfer" when listening on your quality monitoring system.

If you do comparisons in this manner, you will hear what the room sounds like as well as deviations in the system.

Sure, you loose imaging, soundstage, and the like, but you can tell trash from treasure.

I don't see how any reasonable evaluation via youtube is possible.  First, it takes a master recording engineer to do a recording properly and good microphones cost many thousands of dollars each, and many are needed so that the right microphone for the job can be selected.  Even with all of that, how will one know that the recording is faithful to the original without playing it back on a system which has its own sound; the only way to sort of close the loop is to hear the system in its original venue and hear the recorded playback immediately on multiple systems to confirm that the recording is reasonably faithful.  And even if you have that, the youtube watcher has a completely different system coloring the results such that any comparison is hopelessly flawed.  The only way to compare systems is to hear them in person, and the result is a purely individual, subjective assessment, not all that useful unless there was a big panel of judges that makes it sort of like a baking contest--the "winner" is a rough consensus choice.

Any "contest" comparing systems is NOT about the sound because there is never a valid sonic comparison.  It is about something else--how nice something looks, how much was spent or how little was spent, or how may pieces made the Stereophile category A list, etc.  

toddalin

... a good YouTube video can go a long way, and while you’ll never portray all the nuance, you will hear anomalies in the response and get a good idea of what the system is capable of ...

YouTube uses lossy audio - not unlike mp3 files - and it sounds like it. The visual component adds no value. YT just can’t tell you much about how a system sounds. Of course many people are happy with lossy audio. Just look at the popularity of Spotify!

@mwinkc I only know people with the best ears. They come listen and they won't leave. I can't get them out. They will tell you. :)

"The only bragging rights would be for "how much was spent" which is at least objective, but does not say much else about the sound."

That would depend on your crowd.  Those at AK typically take the opposite approach..., i.e., "how little was spent for the results obtained".

Unfortunately, it is impossible to accurately portray all aspects of the "results obtained" over the net and this requires attendance at the venue.

BUT, a good YouTube video can go a long way, and while you’ll never portray all the nuance, you will hear anomalies in the response and get a good idea of what the system is capable of, and you will know if it is garbage.  Of course this assumes that you have a fairly neutral playback system on which to hear the videos or listen over good headphones and the video was well done.

IMO, I was not in competition, but rather trying to learn what is this high end audio really mean to me, just me. All this just started during covid lock down. How does a certain bracket of $$ affect the sound. As i journey to this hobby, i heard what replacing a component (from amps to source to cables) do. After getting what i can afford and attending recent Audio Shows, making changes, I feel/think (based on my wallet :) ) i have reached a level wherein I am happy now. 

Another thing that was on side was I was able to travel outside the US and purchased gear from other countries and took it back home. 

I know that in this hobby, everyone has their opinion and believe that we all have what got to make our system the best. And, I truly respect that because we all hear music differently. so no competition..