Headphones vs speakers….

For me, headphones versus speakers in a room are two completely different experiences. Rather like comparing a roadster to a luxury sedan -- each has their attractive qualities, but which you like better at any given moment depends on what mood you're in.

That said, it sounds like you've put a lot of effort into getting your headphone system the way you like it (though interestingly you didn't say what headphones you bought.)  Perhaps you need to put some more effort into your loudspeaker system, though I have to say Totems have never done much for me, though I know they have a following.

I think the headphone versus speaker debate comes down to what your sound priorities are. 

Headphones tend to have a flatter listening response because their sound isn't impacted by the room. Some listening rooms can impact the response of a speaker-based system, especially with bass, by many decibels. This causes annoying augmentation and/or complete suck-out of certain frequencies and can ruin/hamper the listening experience.

By comparison, a great speaker-based system just sounds more open with appropriate imaging. I detoured a few years with headphones and could never get the same illusion of performers occupying the listening space. 

Using well-designed and implemented room treatments helps a speaker-based system sound closer to a headphone-based system in terms of response, although a world-class headphone system will always maintain the advantage.

You'll be hard-pressed to get the spaciousness of a quality speaker-based system with headphones though. That open window, 3D sound when everything is working is awesome.  

It certainly takes more resources, planning, and patience to get a speaker-based system to sing correctly. Its much much easier with headphones.     

Agree with all

Proper corner horns are considered to be the most “headphone like” sound by most listeners due to the least amount of interaction (reflections) in the room.

I sometimes use mine in my heavily treated basement and they do sound the most like headphones to me (compared to my other loudspeakers)

Thanks guys

Headphones I tried were DT770s (80 ohm) - liked them a lot for the price and bass response, DT990s, nice but I missed the bass response. Tried others but I was on a quest for “good” bass, soundstage etc etc. Had to sacrifice soundstage somewhat as I preferred the bass response from closed back cans. Jumped up from $150 to close to $2000 for Fostex TH 900. The Fostex are a bit recessed compared to the cheaper DT770s but that’s ok. Just impossible to find one pair that has everything I’m looking for but I’m at a point of just trying to get myself to be content and stop chasing something that might not exist - I’m 95% of the way there and should be happy with that.

Right now the room is echoing like crazy and I’m putting my hopes on those curtains for the three walls and probably will add more soft furnishings. Swapped the Totems out for a pair of Paradigm S2V2 i had in storage out of curiosity but with the bigger cones the bass in the room is worse. Still, I know I have a lot of work to do to get this room right but I’m loving the headphones. Still not 100% with the Fostex as they are very slightly bright for my liking but I may be able to sort that out with EQ. I have to say the DT 770s are great for the price and my personal preference. Trying all kinds of headphone amps also - yes, you can go down a rabbit hole even with headphones!

Thanks again

Two more thoughts -- first, ever try any planar headphones?  I recently picked up a pair of Hifiman Sundaras and have been very pleased with their performance. Overall, I like them better than the Stax phones I used to have.  Note they have this model available in both closed and open back.

Second, you indicate you are "95% of the way there...."  My comment here is that you are ALWAYS at the mercy of the recording, and there is no shortage of mediocre and even poor recordings out there.  The problem is if a playback system -- phones or speakers -- "fixes" or improves a mediocre or poor recording, it is also going to mess with a good recording.   As such, even if you have an unlimited budget, there are always compromises involved in the playback gear chosen.  If you are 95% of the way to where you want to be, my advice is to stay reasonable about your expectations for further improvement. Don't spoil your enjoyment of where you are.

Agree with all that mlisstl

im still in the addictive phase with headphones and I have one final pair to test out - the Audeze LCD 2 planners. After that I’m finished exploring and experimenting more. 
Agree on recordings, in fact on a nice system of good cans I can’t listen to a lot of my favorite tracks if they aren’t recorded well and I find myself enjoying music that never interested me if it’s a great recording. I have a few reference tracks that I try all my headphones against and if I’m not liking what I hear on a given set of headphones with those tracks I’ll give them a pass.

Anyway, I should have my preamp in about two weeks and my room will be treated by then so I’m very curious.

I have used both for a long time. Headphones have good deep bass and you need full range speaker, true 20hz. The main thing speaker do better than headphones is soundstage. So it will come down to if soundstage is important to you. 

Headphones is like doing meticulous work with reading glasses on. All pretty perfect. Large speakers in a properly treated room is like standing on a mountain top watching the sunset. Majestic!

Headphones lack impact and dynamics as in realism ,I have heard headphones like the top Star  with $7 k headphone amps like Linear tube audio which sound Fantastic , but a very good floorstander will give you goosebumps with room impacting Bass, and dynamics you can feel ,headphones  can sound great but lack That you are there physical impact.

Isn't it all about what a person likes and their priorities? Both approaches are great and both are right. It depends on one's priorities.

The headphone fanatics love the clarity, surround, etc, stuff that they need. My max involvement in headphones is the Grado SR80. But for me - I like to "see" the magic forming in front of me in thin air between, around and away from the speakers! Your headphone system seems to be fantastic - pursue that (and if needed, upgrade). No point in spending money in a loudspeaker system, unless you can afford both.

1+ @audioman58 , head phones are like sex with a condom. The problem is most of us can not afford the equipment that handily surpasses headphones in performance.

OP,

 

You can see my systems under my ID. I have been I proving my main system since the 1970’s I got serious about my headphone system around 2007. I improved my headphone system to the point that when I listened to my main system, I was completely disappointed. My main system was highly detailed with great slam…. But completely without warmth and musicality. I had based my headphone system on a really good Woo 300B headphone amplifier.

This was the trigger for me to fix my main system. My main system is now all Audio Research Reference components… it is simply magical… natural and musical… just like my headphone system. Sure there are soundstage differences between my headphone system and main. But they both have the same musical attraction… I can’t pull myself away… they are both so musical… I just want to keep listening.

 

So, my point? It is about your equipment… and for your main, venue. You can achieve the same basic sound quality and enjoyment level… but it takes work. There is nothing “innate” that makes one different from the other… it is your equipment choices. 

@thomastrouble I would agree with you but only with 1 brand of headphones. I have the Benchmark stack like you, in-fact I had an HPA4 preamp but sold it when I heard another brand and I realized that I was no longer interested in regular headphones. I sold the HPA4 and bought the LA4 later, after a merry-go-round of preamps.

If you want to have headphones that sound like your 2-channel gear. Most likely way better than most 2-channel gear, do a demo of the following:

• RAAL SR1b earphones (these are unlike headphones)
• RAAL VM-1a genius level tube headphone amp, ONLY suitable for 2 RAAL headphones, SR1b + CA-1a
• RAAL Star8 Silver cable (or RAAL SR728 cable)
• Benchmark DAC3

The above is my very best "2-channel" system. I am getting a KEF Blades 2 Meta with a CODA #16 amp. I do not think it will beat the above gear in most sonic attributes. The floor stander will definitively have more drive and power that you will feel in your bones, but the RAAL will have a more intimate sound, like you are there with the performers. Just incredible what the RAAL guys have accomplished.

I said I would never go back to regular headphone but I wanted to hear what RAAL could do next. If you want a regular headphone system that is not like 2-channel but a real amazing rock and roll headphone. Demo the following:

• RAAL CA-1a headphones
• RAAL VM-1a
• RAAL Star8 Silver cable (or RAAL SR728 cable)
• Benchmark DAC3

Some cheaper amp alternate to hear these 2 phones are the following:

- Schitt Jotunhiem R (for RAAL Only, $299 clearance sale)

- RAAL HSA-1a solid state headphone amp

- Benchmark AHB2 with a warm DAC and Benchmark speaker cable*

- Peachtree GAN1 ($1400)*

* requires a RAAL amp adapter box ($700)

The Peachtree 2-channel was the second best amp I have heard with the RAAL’s, after the VM-1a. I used to say that the Peachtree was a 8.5/10 vs the VM-1a, a 10/10. However, I may have to push the GAN1 down a bit more after hearing the Star8 cable with the VM-1a. I have not heard the Star8 cable with the GAN1.

"Sex with a condom"? Laughable. 

Each way to listen to music offers pros and cons but the biggest con I read about here is the close-mindedness of some people. Headphones offer a way to listen to lots of different presentations without breaking the bank or needing a barn to have the room for all the speakers you'd need to recreate the various sound profiles. 

 

In 1969 my brother and I would go to a small jazz club/bar in a small upstairs place in a town in northern England, ever since then that is the sound I have sought. I have that now. I could never achieve that with headphones.

Obviously headphones have their place (not with me though) but I will never get the  soundstage I want with headphones.

I'm surprised no-one's highlighted the biggest difference between in-room listening and headphones.

With headphones there's no leakage between channels.  Your left ear hears the left channel, the whole left channel and nothing but the left channel.

This gives a very holographic experience wholly different from listening to speakers in a space, even an anechoic space.  I lived in an apartment for 20 years and listened mainly on headphones - Stax electrostatics.  The sound was cleaner and more etched than from any speaker which certainly had an attraction.  I liked it but those Staxs and their amp have remained in their boxes ever since.

Best headphone amp bang for buck is the Audio-GD HE-9 LE. If ordered from Audio-GD will cost about $1900 plus right now 5% off. Very clean and very loud if you wish. Plays balanced or straight pin, balanced is best with their products. My get one for around $1000 used.

Call me skeptical mrskeptic. It's hard to buy your open mindedness when you don't have a system posted. I like my house of stereo open floor system over any headphones and you probably can tell why. Yours?

It’s clear that headphone & speaker listens are two different things. Listening on good headphones (Sennheiser 600) w/ a good headphone amp ( Naim) back in about 2002 showed me just how much I was missing through my speakers in detail & nuance & led me on path of substantial, incremental improvements.

I’ve always thought the big Martin Logan’s (CLS?) , the big Sound Labs & the Apogees sounded like giant headphones in a good way. Spooky revealing if not necessarily “live sound”. 

The analogy I will pick out of the wild blue is cooking over an outdoor wood fire vs. cooking in an indoor kitchen. Two different environments, two different overriding methodologies and two differing results. I use this analogy because smoking Q on an outdoor stick burner smoker is a hobby of mine. 

There is something about headphone amp design that sucks me in. Even more than with speaker amps, the design and implementation of an exotic or bespoke headphone amp is something I find fascinating. I own five, a Little Dot (tube), a Luxman P-750u (fully balanced SS), a Violectric HPA 200 (SS), a Quicksilver (tube, of course), and a monster of an amp, an Ampsandsand Nautilus. Over the years I have owned many brands and designs of headphones and have settled mostly upon ZMF's. I have tried many brands of headphone cables including some exotic custom made cabling at uber-prices. 

I mostly listen through my loudspeakers but just as sometimes I feel like getting out my Japanese hand crafted knives, All-Clad cookware, fresh vegetables, etc. to cook, say, veal sweetbreads over polenta and other times I feel like smoking a full packer brisket, it is a matter of "moods and foods". Perhaps another analogy would the best American zinfandels vs. the best Burgundies but I better stop.....

All one needs to do is spend some time at the Head-Fi site or another, forum.headphnes.com to get sucked into the downright zealotry displayed by headphone enthusiasts. Likewise, go to a CanJam or similar event and it is hard not to get hooked. By and large the headphone community tend to be younger and Asian/European. The reasons are simple; headphones don't require a room and the cost of entry into the hobby is much less. 

Another gateway drug into headphone addiction is travel or commuting to work. I own a pair of custom IEM's made from foam molds of my ears. With a Ray Samuels portable headphone amp (now we get back into audio jewelry) and a good portable source (I have a Basso player) the sound is often immersive and transportive (sorry for the fancy words). And...since I often travel with my Macbook Pro, streaming Qobuz with an Audioquest Dragon Cobalt puts a big smile on my face too. The point being if you want to take your music with you, nothing beats headphones. 

@fsonicsmith1 

Real well thought out post. Newbies can be a welcome breath of fresh air on here. No doubt that headphones have their place in the audio world. Even If I don't listen to them at home anymore, they always travel with me. Got back from vacation in Gd Cayman and had a pair hooked up to my android phone via a simple in cable dac, listening to Qobuz every evening while going to sleep. Life is good.

Either can be a great a experience. However, you're missing something important with headphones. Headphones completely isolate left channel from right channel. Stereo is engineered so that the right ear hears some of the left speaker and and vice versa. That's why they use headphones in the engineering process...to isolate and determine the degrees of blend.

You're missing some of the imaging experience with headphones. That said, headphones naturally eliminate much of the music/space interplay and will be easy for most to enjoy music. It just eliminates all the variables.

But if you're willing to make some big concessions to the room...and most cannot or will not...you will be rewarded with a sense of scale and impact that headphones can't quite reach.

My current room cannot eclipse a decent set of headphones. But I'm not giving up because my last room surely did.

Rooms are tougher than headphones. This is my experience.

 

fsonicsmith1 - I like all your analogies but I’m glad you stopped before you went too far. Red Burgundy is made from Pinto Noir grapes, not red Zinfandel ( original indigenous North American grape) & the two  are her different. Both can be excellent but it’s like comparing a tube amp w/ a class D solid state. Maybe a delicious Oregonian Pinot would have been more appropriate?

my ears hurt and I tend to cause a lot of accidents after 30 minutes when I wear headphones. Am I doing it wrong?

Stereo is engineered so that the right ear hears some of the left speaker and and vice versa. 

Not necessarily true. In fact, most times not true. I would even go so far as to say that "stereo is engineered" is an oxymoron. I won't elaborate. Talk to someone who does studio engineering or simply read about studio engineering. 

Red Burgundy is made from Pinto Noir grapes, not red Zinfandel ( original indigenous North American grape) & the two  are her different. Both can be excellent but it’s like comparing a tube amp w/ a class D solid state. Maybe a delicious Oregonian Pinot would have been more appropriate?

I am quite aware. My analogy to two completely different wines that are not only from different grape varieties but from different countries with completely different character was on purpose. But now we are getting both silly and pompous, aren't we? :-)

I'm a speaker listener as I don't like being held captive by headphone wires and the weight of something hanging off my head and making my ears sweaty. I do use wireless RF headphones open back headphones for late night cinema but that's the extent my experience.

If I were to make the choice of going down the rabbit hole of luxury headphones and premium headphone amps, maybe I'd have a different opinion.

Thanks guys, wow, a lot to read here!

I thought I was done with my quest for great headphone and headphone amp combo but….

 

I should have mentioned my Benchmark amp and preamp will be used in a small room as I’m now in an apartment. I used to own big Magnapan speakers with great amps and I’ll probably never enjoy music like that again - I like my music loud but I can’t do that in this apartment. I’m out on the town a lot so I use portable headphone amps, right now the Ifi Gryphon. I’m happy but always wondering if there is better in a truly portable headphone amp.

 

my room is maybe 14 feet long by maybe 12 feet wide so I guess I’ll be giving up good soundstaging which I love. Using Totem 1 bookshelf speakers and will hook up a Velodyne sub with these. However today I swapped the Totems out for a Pair of Paradigm S2 v2 - horrible! My room isn’t yet treated (will be in two more weeks) but the Paradigms were just muddy as hell compared to the Totems and I’m wondering if this was due to the bigger cones on the paradigms coupled with an untreated room.

right now I’m just dabbling with what I have laying around (Naim Nait 5i ) until my Benchmark system is complete with the DAC 3. However, I doubt that will have any effect on the Paradigms sounding better, but who knows how much of this is due to a very untreated room.

Re my headphones - too many to mention, all quality, some cheap but great for my sound preference, “good” bass. My cheap DT770s at $130 gets me 95% of the way of my favorites right now but at over $2000 with a good cable - Fostex TH 900 (for bass). Waiting for a pair of Audeze LCD2 to test out that flavor.

Just to add in case anybody chimes in on cans and portable amp - the most important thing for me is a wide soundstage but I sacrifice this by using closed back because of the bass - can I find both? Not sure how much an amp affects this, but I like forward mids (vocals). My other little portable amp which I love is an older Oppo HA2 - I think this sounds warmer than the Ifi Gryphon. I’m curious about the Audeze but these will also be the closed back.

You may never equal the headphone with the speakers and the room you now have. If volume is in play, and low bass, stick with headphones and everyone will be happier I guess. You see to be leaning that way. And if speakers and headphones are going to cost the same, stick with headphones.

I know how fabulous headphones can sound these days but the listening experience is night and day for me and if forced into headphones I could probably adapt. They just don't sound like a good loudspeaker, and that's what I do prefer.

You might consider an extreme nearfield experience with your speakers and see how it might sound. Keep experimenting with the Totems. Good luck!

Listened all night after getting B&W i5 in ear wireless headphones with an Android phone. Being freed from the wire immerses you in a sea of fabulous sound. Sennheiser TW3 if you want more bass at the expense of some transparency compared to the B&W. At these prices embrace the healing power of and.

* quantum leap over AirBuds.

@thomastrouble , it’s taken me half a lifetime to get to a point where my full system approaches the specific things I like best about what even a $500 pair of headphones can do. Yes they are two different experiences. But there are some areas where headphones have advantages, and some areas where headphones simply can’t replicate the experience of a full system.

But headphones have this blazingly fast quickness and ease of detail delivery, with drive and energy and great dynamics, that even now my full system can’t quite match - but it’s finally getting awful close. It’s this one quality that I’ve felt was very important for full enjoyment of music as it sounds more alive. Every now and then I’ll listen to a song on my system and then on my $500 pair of headphones (no fancy setup or anything, just Bluetooth to phone), and I’ll take note of the differences. Suggest others chiming in on this thread give that a try if you haven’t lately. You might be surprised!

 

The soundstage is badly distorted on headphones; Pure left sounds only to arrive at the left ear, and are perceived as being way to the left, with nothing on the right to create a semblance of a credible space. Likewise on the right side.

Pure left sounds on speakers also reach the right ear and they are perceived as being on the left side of a stage, far more realistic.

Sound from speakers at an identical left and right level, say, a vocalist or lead instrument, iff* you are seated exactly the same distance from both speakers, will deliver a nearly convincing center image - except that, again, there will be sound coming from the left speaker reaching the right ear and vice-versa, so that center image will be poorly focused at best, and only to a person sitting directly in the middle. Anywhere else, the center image fails. Try this: play a tune with a vocalist singing in the center - sit right in the middle. Now hold a record jacket, edge to you nose, blocking the left signal to your right ear and vice-versa. You will immediately hear the singer pop into focus, more accurately and realistically, coming from the center.

With headphones, a sound at equal levels left and right will be solidly placed in the center. Also, headphones will be immune from room resonances and reverb.

So - which is better?

For critical listening, for just one person, I would say a good pair of headphones - with one important condition: Unless the musical source is binaural - and that can sound spectacularly realistic, you need to temper that exaggerated soundstage.

It’s not too hard to do.

You need a separation or blend control to narrow that space. On some recordings, like some early stereo, where there was an exaggerated separation for effect, that will make the music far more enjoyable. But I find it essential with just about any stereo source.

It could be as simple as putting a 5 to 50 Ohm variable resistor (depending on your cans’ impedance) between the left and right wires the headphones.
I have adapted a few cables with this simple mod.

Then you can dial in exactly what you perceive as a natural sound stage, and the center will always be far better focused than any pair of speakers can ever hope to achieve.

You will be amazed how much better headphones will sound.

* iff - that’s not a typo. Look it up.

All in all I’ll be needing the system and headphones - the headphones for when I’m out and the system when I’m home. I understand these will be different experiences. Since my system isn’t properly set up yet I’m simply curious as to what to expect after being very very happy with the headphones. From dabbling with the temporary integrated I’m using now and the (probably) badly paired speakers I know a lot of my disappointment is due to the mud coming from an untreated room compared with the spectacular clarity of the headphones. These Totems are tiny but probably perfect for a small room like this but the mud I’m hearing when I swap them out (175mm cones compared to 125mm cones) really sound awful in this untreated room at present which has me wondering if I’m going to be able to use a subwoofer in that room. Anyway, I’ll find out in a couple of weeks once my Benchmark DAC3 arrives to complete my Benchmark setup.

This will be a dedicated listening room - I’m planning on hanging thick curtains on three walls (behind the speakers and both side walls) to dampen echoes - is this advisable? I’ll have the curtains cut into sections that I can open at intervals if need be to experiment.

The soundstage in the RAAL SR1a is like 2-channel not like headphones. That is the one of the beautiful aspects of the sound thorough them. Checkout this review below where the reviewer says he disliked the SR1a because people laughed at him and that they did not sound like headphones. 2-channel people should really hear these because a perfectly optimized SR1a is hard to beat with a 2-channel speaker system.

(3) What's a RIBBON headphone? RAAL Requisite CA-1A Review with Resolve! | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org

 

I agree with @yyzsantabarbara above.  I too have a RAAL SR-1b Nearfield Ear Monitor (Earspeakers) system and they are the closest thing to the experience of listening to loudspeakers in a room.  Of course, in my mind the gold standard is a live musical performance in a performing space but both speakers (I have had many speaker-based systems in the past) and headphones both have their merits.

I love headphones for the same reasons already mentioned this thread but still prefer listening to speakers despite their faults. I think it’s important to have a sound wave actually traveling across your head, with the driver far enough away from your head that your head doesn’t become reactive with the driver. The ear and the driver are best acoustically uncoupled to create externalizing effects. With software it is possible to simulate the effects of sound waves traveling across the head and outer ear to make an externalized sound field. I know the Smyth Realizer does this and Apple and others are starting to work on it too. I haven’t heard these technologies myself yet. Occasionally I’ll get a startling effect on headphones that tricks me into thinking I’m hearing something far away so I know it can work. Another issue though is it’s more comfortable and relaxing to not have things on or in my ears when I’m in the comfort and relative quiet of my home. When traveling headphones can block noise and sometimes keep ears warm so they make sense on multiple levels. I might wear them even if I’m not listening to anything. One thing that amazes me is just how noisy a car interior can be on the highway. It’s mostly bass rumble and that becomes apparent if I put on headphones that don’t block or cancel noise. I turn them way up and still can’t hear any bass!

It takes a really good system to beat a decent set of headphones. I'm not sure a set of Totems are up to that task. If you are putting together a really good headphone system, it's going to take serious bucks to get better quality out of a loudspeaker system. Not what we want to hear but that is what it takes. 

There is a difficulty most people do not have with "luxury" high end headphones. They are all made with leather and I have ethical objections to killing animals for their body parts or for food. If I wanted the headphone experience, this is a limit. 

Over the years I have perfected the placement of Magnepan speakers driven by 833A single ended triode amplifiers in a round house with acoustic treatments. 

Personally prefer speakers, but the room and speakers have to be good. Couple of reasons have already been covered by other posters - there are crosstalk and phase stuff that occurs around your head (even across your face) with speakers, so the soundfield/stage is a different experience. The other reason is I like low end you can feel in your chest, headphones can't do that.

 

 

Sure I'm coming to this a few months late, but it's a relevant post and will remain relevant for some time. That, and of course this thread has been left open for comments.

@russ69  wrote above ...

"It takes a really good system to beat a decent set of headphones. I'm not sure a set of Totems are up to that task. If you are putting together a really good headphone system, it's going to take serious bucks to get better quality out of a loudspeaker system. Not what we want to hear but that is what it takes."

I haven't written on Agon for years, but this caught my eye as I'm trying to catch-up to those that have tried the latest headphones. While I'm not at all surprised by the comment above, I'm very surprised that no one has responded to it. To wit, while I completely agree that it takes an exceptional loudspeaker system in order to shower its listeners with an exceptional audio experience (however the listener defines that), I absolutely disagree and have spent a decade of my life disproving the contention that such a system would require one to spend "serious bucks".

How could one possibly know this? I know you never stepped foot into my "really good system", nor did you ever ask me how much I spent on it. 

How does one define how serious one needs to be to spend "serious bucks"? From the tone of the comment I'm fairly certain that many of us can easily disprove his statement. The numbers matter. Significantly.

ghdprentice experience is near mine...

So, my point? It is about your equipment… and for your main, venue. You can achieve the same basic sound quality and enjoyment level… but it takes work. There is nothing “innate” that makes one different from the other… it is your equipment choices.

I will add that it is not only the gear investment but acousic control of the room too...

I tuned my speakers/ room very well... One year full time work each day...

The soundfield was exactly like an headphone intimacy with the dynamic of speakers...The soundfield was AROUND me not in front of me between the speakers... The soundfield is recording dependent...

I lost my room...

I disliked all my 9 headphones in the past...It takes me 6 months of tuning, modifying , to optimize the only promising headphones i owned : the AKG k340..

I succeeded ... The soundfield is now speaker-like and out of my head when the recording make it possible... For example Organ recorded in church gave me the impression that i am in the church, the sound fill my room , not at all between my ears...

The speakers/room and headphone can be two extraordinary experiences... It is difficult with any of these choices... Why ?

Because acoustic of small room is very difficult to figure out ... Speakers dont go near 20 hertz if you dont pay for very costlier one and the higher frequencies of speakers too need to be well done to beat my electrostatic headphone cell...And i disliked all headphones i listen to in my life.... The K340 is a beast of a kind which create a soundfield very different compared to any other headphone... I listen the bass with them as if i was listening subwoofers...With my feet by bone resonance...

I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response...

But give me the costly speakers and i will tune the room so well the headphone will not compete with the speakers/room , even the miraculous AKG K340...

It is possible to create speakers and headphone experience on par with one another in spite of their basic differences ( no crosstalk with headphone ) but as ghdprentice said it ask for works..

The good news:

With the "virtual room system" of Dr. Choueri BACCH filters and dac, ( costly) speakers and headpghones can sound magical...

It will be my only upgrade if i upgrade my satisfying system one day...

 

@mahgister wrote ...

"I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response..."

What is "a fortune"? Based on my knowledge of the average agoner's budget, what they've spent and might be willing to spend to create an exceptional audio experience ... the word "fortune" seems completely out of place here.

One does need to include numbers or even just some vague range of numbers for the quote above to have much (if any) meaning.

I think @mahgister brings out that you can make tremendous improvements after you finalize your equipment. It takes work and is only limited by your imagination and effort. While for me that is for my main system. He took it to crazy levels with headphones.

No need to panic or over react on a metaphor...

 

 

My basic headphone system with the K340 cost me 700 bucks...My experience is limited compared to many here, but i never listen to anything speakers ( Tannoy, Quads, Magnepan etc ) or headphone ( even Stax) better than my actual K340 system..

How will cost a pair of speakers with or without subwoofers pair , able to give me around 20 hertz and high frequencies like Stax headphone ?

I called that a "fortune" ... Compared to my basic system... pick your number yourself , you are a great kid now.. and perhaps the son of Bill Gates... Then for you my "fortune" is a ridiculous metaphor for sure...

😊

By the way the "average agoner budget" is a preposterous concept...Nobody here is an average dude... We are all different...

And for most people 10,000 bucks is a "fortune"...

@mahgister and yet ...

you can certainly be critical of ME if you want but this isn’t about me. And it doesn’t help your point by accusing me of doing or being something whatever that might be.

This isn’t about you either. Is it? I meant for my question to be related to a statement you made. One that has little meaning unless you put numbers, relative values if you like, to lend credence to your statement that it would cost you "a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response".

Are you an audience of one, or was your statement meant to be read by others? Potentially thousands of others? Don’t you think it’s critical to consider what those others think is meant by a fortune? At least in some average sense?

If you don’t think it’s important to provide numbers or a range then I vehemently disagree with your statement, metaphorically stated or otherwise.

BTW, an average is just a mathematical number with some error taken into consideration. I think I could do that math if I needed to. I don't see why it's so difficult for you to do the same, albeit with a large-ish margin of error. It''s not really that difficult, and by no means preposterous as you seem to believe. If you cannot do such a thing then doesn't that render your original statement even less meaningless than it already is?

For instance, where did your number $10,000 come from? I see that you threw that in as an edit to your comment. If that's supposed to be an answer to my question did you consider averages wrt products or consumer budgets? I really don't think this kind of mathematical exercise is difficult in the slightest.

In the context of my post it is possible for anyone with a brain to figure out what i spoke about...

It is not necessary to wrote a post which suppose that my post had no value because you cannot figure out yourself a simple metaphor...

You can post a polite question about what i means ...

one thing is sure "an average agoner budget" has no meaning...

a"fortune" compared to a low cost basic system based on a vintage headphone as mine , this metaphor has a meaning.. Sorry...

Now answer  my question : how cost a speakers able to deliver 20 hertz and higher frequencies on par with Omega Stax ?

A "fortune" compared to a vintage headophone... All this is already in my post..

Then my post has a meaning..

Next time be polite SPEAK TO ME not ABOUT ME to the crowd here and ask for precision...

@mahgister

And there you go again leveling personal attacks while avoiding the question. Are you trying to get me to do the same? I didn’t and I won’t, especially since you appear to have no interest in ever answering the question .

I made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!

@mahgister 

And please stop making this about you. I don't and never did want to have a discussion about you! People who read your statement in question may very well be new to the subject and trying to build their own systems, experiences and knowledge base. I strongly believe your statement misleads people like this and quite possibly a great many others. It misleads unless you provide some numbers to back up your opinion.

It would make no sense for me to write directly to you when you aren't the audience. If I had written directly to you then I would still want to set the record straight on this: I do not agree with you and I'd be very surprised to find that I'm in the minority. Depending on what you mean by a fortune. But you won't tell us what you mean for some reason.

 

A cheap electrostatics speakers will not give deep bass...

You will need an hybrid... They dont sell 700 bucks ..And you must add the acoustic dedicated room cost in money and in time...

Or an array of subwoofeers... My post spoke about 20 hertz..

Did you forgot ?

And my headphone are so good, better than ALL speakers i listened to in living room , you will need speakers way over the price of all my system cost : 700 dollars... Deep bass +strong dynamics = very good speakers then way more than cheap vintage headphone...

Thats my point...

It is you in a reverse of accusation who misread my post , clear for everyone, that some headphone as my K340 can give a soundfield at a cheap price that only costly speakers will beat...

A controlled acoustic room , i tune mine with resonators , CANNOT replace the speakers specs by the way only optimize then...If your speakers dont go near 20 hertz but only 50 , no room treatment will do more...

The use and meaning of a term is defined by HIS CONTEXT of use in the text where it is used...

A "fortune" compared to a cheap vintage headphone as the AKG K340 which sell for 100 bucks, is many times his price... Then it is clear for everyone with good faith that this metaphor dont means 50,000 bucks probably nor 500 bucks... more around many thousands... IT IS A METAPHOR...

All of what you have to do , instead of going on me for a "word" is asking...

I would have answer many thousands...

how much ?

It depend of the pocket of the people...

High quality headphone are not so easy to beat , on details, deep bass, holography, dynamics  and listener envelopment If we add the cost of acoustic treatment and control... it is way more than my 100 bucks price for a vintage headphone..

Everybody knows that the cheapest solution is headphone.... The price of speakers able to go near 20 hertz +the cost of acoustic is way more...

now dont ask me the exact price it goes from 3,000 at minimum, if you are able to do all the acoustic by yourself as i did, to much more if you do not .., Which if we compare the two, a vintage headphone and Speakers+room acoustic , is for many people here metaphorically a fortune...

Case closed....

 

 

 

 

made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!