Generally there is an headphone like sound inside the head...
Convolution filters cannot change that...It will improve the frequencies response... but will not change the headphone like sound...
BACCH filters can...
In the mean time i use the only one speaker like headphone ... AKG k340..
😊
I will take several of each please and toss in some modern DSP like a nice convolution filter in Roon for a specific pair of headphones to take things to the highest possible level cost effectively. Thank you!
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I will take several of each please and toss in some modern DSP like a nice convolution filter in Roon for a specific pair of headphones to take things to the highest possible level cost effectively. Thank you!
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I disliked all headphones i bought save one... (9 headphones of three different types )
I prefer my 2 way box speakers M-Audio Mv 40 , payed 100 bucks IN AN ACOUSTIC CORNER DESIGNED FOR THEM , to any headphone.... Save the one i love... AKG K340...After loosing my big speakers/acoustic room , they save me from audiophile despair... My little box now astound me for the ratio S.Q. /price but ONLY in a dedicated corner acoustically designed for them... Nearfield listening NEVER replace acoustic... Sorry ....
I have tried several times over the years to like headphones. I have some nice headphones and headphone amps. I rarely use them; much prefer listening to speakers.
With that said, I have several very nice speaker based systems, two of which use active ATCs.
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@thomastrouble Since you like the Maggies so much I would suggest the LRS+ with a KEF KC62 sub. I have this setup in a small room with a Sanders MagTech amp. My preamp is the Benchmark LA4. I would not use the Benchmark AHB2 with the LRS+.
The PeachTree GAN400 ($1500 used) is rather good with the LRS+ but the MagTech is better.
The LRS+ setup is sonically very similar to my RAAL SR1a earphone setup. I turn off the LRS+ system when it gets late at night and crank up the SR1a system.
I sold my RAAL VM-1a headphone amp to raise some money. I found out that the $800 RAAL TI-1b amp interface can get me to 90% of the VM-1a using the expensive CODA #16 amp. It is not quite as good with the PeachTree GAN400 but close. The VM-1a is so amazing that getting to 90% of that is still great sound.
I hope to get a Class A Schitt Aegir 20-watt amp today ($800) to hopefully rival the CODA #16 with the SR1a earphones + TI-1b interface.
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@simonmoon
Exactly! re "the musicians are in front of me, and their individual positions within the acoustic space they are inhabiting, is defined in front of me. Not coming from within my head."
The recreation of the soundstage, like a holographic image of the band or musicians arrayed in front of you (not between your ears), with soundstage depth and width—that is something headphones won’t do same as speakers. It makes a huge difference to me too.
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I have tried several times over the years to like headphones. I have some nice headphones and headphone amps. I rarely use them; much prefer listening to speakers.
With that said, I have several very nice speaker based systems, two of which use active ATCs.
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Exactly...
And it can beat on many acoustic factors even speakers systems of superior cost , especially those which are not in a dedicated acoustic room...
They dont compare , ....but with a BACCH filter system they may became IDENTICAL...
Anyway my Headphone system will cost me 1,600 dollars, 100, headphone, 200 dac, 300 amplifier, 1000 pre-amp or headphone amplifier and they will beat many if not most very costly speakers system in a living room...
One true thing about phones is for $2000-3000 you can get some that are comparable to >$20,000 speakers, so they are an audio bargain in that sense. I am happy with my Sennheisers for now, and will hold off upgrading them and put the money elsewhere in my system. FWIW.
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I used to listen to headphones about 40% of the time, daily in the evening when my wife is at home. We were both working days. I have a pretty good headphone stage in my DAC preamp (Audio Alchemy), and several pair of ("budget reference") Sennheiser phones, the 600 and 650. Whenever I shopped for possible new preamps or integrated amps, they had to have a decent headphone stage as I didn’t want to run a separate headphone amp (not a big deal though, really)..
Now, since retiring and being at home in the day when my wife is still working, I do most of my serious and loud listening when she isn’t home. I rarely use my headphones! I do have an Audioquest Dragonfly DAC (highly recommended) for listening to Tidal via my phone when out and about or traveling.
I do still enjoy listening to headphones (and room issues disappear), and will often A/B songs back and forth, phones vs speakers. I just prefer the speaker experience more, if the room and setup are dialed in. One true thing about phones is for $2000-3000 you can get some that are comparable to >$20,000 speakers, so they are an audio bargain in that sense. I am happy with my Sennheisers for now, and will hold off upgrading them and put the money elsewhere in my system. FWIW.
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Have you tried listening nearfield? That's the first thing I'd try in your situation. I listen a lot with the speakers 2-3 feet from my head and there's a lot to be said for this. You get much better punch from small woofers when they're close. The volume can be lower so there's less room interaction.
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@thomastrouble
As you have heard the room is critical to success. I would advise instead of guessing what and where to put things in your room you consult a professional who would take the guess work out of it giving you a great sounding set up. Good luck !
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A new speaker rig in an unfamiliar room can be quite the challenge. You just have to work at it, and iterate. Get furnishings in there. Position, position, position. Experiment. Get external input. Have friends over. Explore acoustic treatments. DON’T go overboard there; it’s not necessary and nothing sucks more than trying to sell a pile of $$$$ treatments on the used market. There is no one-size-fits-all formula anyone can tell you for this.
If you have a great headphone setup, then yeah that’s gonna feel like an "easy button" for good sound compared to the initial struggle with speakers. Sadly, you might end up with a speaker / amp pairing you don’t dig, or the "wrong" speaker for a room, etc. At some point you can’t fix that and you’ll just have to try something else.
I’ll always keep around a great headphone setup. It’s how I got my start in this hobby, it’s a great reference / tool, and it’s perfectly capable of a joyful listening experience in its own right.
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The price has nothing to do with it... I dont feel the same as you with a 700 bucks system...
No headphone can beat a speakers/room at the top level...But top level system in a dedicated room are not so frequent..
But some headphone can rival this in their own way at a fraction of the price in my case..
Headphone and speakers will become the same on the same level only with a BACCH set of filters...
In the meantime i am completely satisfied with an headphone system that rival and beat all of what i listened to in any living room.. 😊
I spoke about good average system, Quad, Magnepan and Tannoy etc ... I never listened to very high end costly system in a dedicated acoustic room ...I tuned my own dedicated room and my headphone rival it because my speakers were good but average...
The acoustic revolution actually dated back many years ago already is by Dr. Choueri and BACCH filters... No more difference between speakers and headphone... Any other upgrade than this could be useless if not absolutely necessary... It is my opinion only for sure...
Then after Dr. Choueri BACCH , the difference from speakers and headphone is no more significant , save confort and group listening with speakers, not the soundfield...
Anyway my K340 give me already a taste of an "out of the head" soundfield...
Despite having, and enjoying my pretty high end headphone and amp system (Grado GS3000, Astell and Kern amp, about $3500 combined), they will never, to me, sound as good as my full system.
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Despite having, and enjoying my pretty high end headphone and amp system (Grado GS3000, Astell and Kern amp, about $3500 combined), they will never, to me, sound as good as my full system.
They lack the visceral impact of my full system, which is a big part of what connects me, emotionally, to the music. In essence, the difference is loading my 1,600 cubic foot room with sound pressure, compared to the .122047 cubic inches of my ear canal.
Also, when I see live music, the musicians are in front of me, and their individual positions within the acoustic space they are inhabiting, is defined in front of me. Not coming from within my head.
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Thanks for your post...
Dr.Choueri is an acoustic genius and a physicist, after him there is no more difference because of crosstalk between speakers and headphone...
People dont understand it or dont know about it... In a way all other dac upgrading is obsolete or without it a lost of money...
This is my opinion after reading his papers and interviews...
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I am now using BACCH in both my speaker and headphone rigs. During the installation process with headphones, one of the exercises switches between headphones and speakers. People frequently report that they sound exactly the same, and they cannot reliably report whether they are listening to headphones or speakers. That was certainly my experience. I am a BACCH true-believer, and understand why Dr. Edgar has won so many audiophile awards, including the most recent from The Absolute Sound.
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To be clear:
All headphones i experienced display a more FIXED soundstage small or huge, of their own determined by their drivers characteristic ...The K340 display a more variable soundstage which reproduce more the recording specific acoustic trade-off...In some case with a completely out of the head impression so vivid i can SEE the instruments in my room or out of the limit of my room ... A speakers/dedicated acoustic room do the same on a more precise level if the room is well tuned for Specific speakers and for my ears location to begin with ...
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What you describe can be APPROXIMATED very well with SOME headphone... No headphone can beat a TOP speakers/acoustic dedicated room by itself alone ...once this is said and is clearly written...
I know that in his own way some headphone can give a soundfield which is speaker like... Thats my point...
But it cannot beat all good speakers/ in a dedicated acoustic room in MY OWN EXPERIENCE on all acoustic factors ...
But this approximation with the K340 is so good , especially compared to low cost speakers (so good they could be as my Mission Cyrus 781 was), that i can live with it and listen music... ( my Mission speakers specs were not enough to beat my headphone anyway even in their dedicated room )
And there is an easy solution to rival any speakers/room with the K340 , it is to buy the Dr, Choueri BACCH filters...
They cost too much for me now and anyway i am happy as it is..But it would be my only upgrade...
In some good recording my K340 give a soundstage filling my room not my head...
Is it comparable to the same level as a top speakers in a dedicated acoustic room as i could have done with one pair ? No not at the same level... With the Dr. Choueri BACCH filters yes at the same level if i use my K340...
With the two operas Akhnaten of Philip GlaSS and the Liszt Christus by Antal Dorati for example i listen to an experience where i can pinpoint very precisely where are the instruments the chorus AROUND ME in the room and not in my head...
most speakers in a living room dont do that...
Very good speakers in their dedicated acoustically controlled room will do better in a more precise way for sure... But i can live with my K340 as it is ... 😊
Here we will have a communication problem : i spoke about my MODIFIED K340 not about any other headphone... i never listened to many top headphone of today...I dont know...Is the RAAL able to do this ? i dont know...
Something seems not quite right here. When I refer to a forward soundstage I mean you don’t even need to get out a measuring tape to know that the vocalist is betweend 10 and 12 feet directly in front of you singing 2 feet above your ears. Snare drum hit almost precisely 8 feet behind and 6 feet to the right of the vocalist. That’s now about 20 feet in front and to the right. Air off the stage and reverb from the room way up to the left and in the corner approx 30 feet away.
Are you telling me that you can specifically pinpoint extremely low level noise reflecting off everything in the room and you can be certain that sound is "mapping" the room so realistically that you know the upper left corner of the sound venue is 10 feet up and 30 feet to the right of your listening position?
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Something seems not quite right here. When I refer to a forward soundstage I mean you don’t even need to get out a measuring tape to know that the vocalist is betweend 10 and 12 feet directly in front of you singing 2 feet above your ears. Snare drum hit almost precisely 8 feet behind and 6 feet to the right of the vocalist. That’s now about 20 feet in front and to the right. Air off the stage and reverb from the room way up to the left and in the corner approx 30 feet away.
Are you telling me that you can specifically pinpoint extremely low level noise reflecting off everything in the room and you can be certain that sound is "mapping" the room so realistically that you know the upper left corner of the sound venue is 10 feet up and 30 feet to the right of your listening position?
Is the size and air of the venue different for every recording? If you say yes I’d like to know who else on the planet is having this same sort of experience with headphones or IEMs. Don’t get me wrong. I do realize that all the "air" and low level info is there. Headphones are the best way to ensure you’re able to hear all the information including the extreme low level noise that fills out the soundstage with precise cues as the entirety of the venue.
Edit:
I should add for those that might be new here that a recording must be "special" in order to present a listener with such realistic dimensions. I'm only referring to those types of recordings, not all of which are recorded in live venues but rather in studios with sound recording 'magicians' at the helm. I won't go down the list of all the ones I know because many others have covered them on Audiogon Forums.
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I read you right...
What you describe if you read my past posts is EXACTLY what i myself described as my soundfield ...
I learned how to create this in my room ...
I even in my past posts here use the same expression as you... I was seeing the musicians AROUND me...near me etc it is recording dependant..
But i never thought that an acoustic experience with perfect imaging, soundstage varying dimensions according to EACH recording trade-off, and holographic volume of each sound sources , and listener evevelopment ( ratio of the sound sources volumes related to the listener position inclusio0n ) i never thought that any headphone could emulate that IN HIS OWN WAY...
Some can it seems ...
The AKG K340 optimized can do it... I always disliked any headphones i listen to because the soundfield was between the ears or in a plane surface in front of my head... The K340 give a soundfield out of the head and speaker like , especially so with most well recorded classical albums ..
The reason why is this so, is simple... There is inside two new technologies even for today , hybridation of electrostatic and dynamic cell at 4000 hertz, and 5 fine Tuned Helmholtz passive resonators... The soundfield is so realistic that all my 9 other headphone are unnatural and artificial... To be blunt they sound as trash compared to it and i will never use them...
Then SOME headphone could go where no headphone ever go...😊
I dont know which one can do it apart the K340, the RAAL ? the OMEGA STAX? the ToP HIFIMAN ? this i dont know...I never own them nor optimize any of them ...
There is 4 characteristics in a soundfield , the timbre experience being the ground fundamental ...
--imaging differentitaion , ---soundstage variable dimensions, ---holographic volume of each sound sources, and--- listener envelopment or immersiveness..
I learned how to create them in my room...I learned how to CONTROL them...
I never know that some headphone could give me these 4 soundfield aspects too with a natural timbre experience and deep bass and refined highs... The K340 can... But it take me 6 months to figure out why and 6 modifications ... Then it is possible..
When i listen organ music of Bach on my headphone the soundfield is so realistic and out of the head , i can see the church, and i keep my eyes open , because each time i cannot believe that the sound do not come from the two cups...😊
If it was no so , i would have been desesperate when i had lost my speakers/room after one year of successful tuning...
Read the Dr. Gorike patent, you will learn why this headphone was the flagship of AKG and why it was never refined and discontinued...Too costly to make and too hard to figure out for most consumers...
I spoke to a Kennerton guy and he said to me, after i ask him why they do not try to create a hybrid ? "We tried but it is too complex and too costly to do it right and make a profit"... This give an explanation why there is no real hybrid on the market... The Dharma was not a real hybrid because his electrostatic cell was working ONLY as a super tweeter, and there is no passive resonators then no deep bass experience.. .The soundfield is not holographic probably... I never listened to it ...And i am not interested to try it... The passive resonators in the K340 create a dual chamber which give this speaker like effect and separate clearly mids and bass and deep bass..
Mahgister
Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.
The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.
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Mahgister
Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.
The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.
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I know that what you claim is true...
Because i did it with my room...
You are spotless right ... 😊
It was the funniest time of my audio journey when i was tuning my room... But it was so hard i will never do it again... It was fun to learn... But when you had learn , the time it will take to do it again , tuning time for 100 resonators, will be very long in my case and way less fun 😁... Anyway now without dedicated room i am satisfied and not frustrated at all with my K340...Some headphones can be more than just very good...
Speakers/room is the best optimal way to reach hi-fi...But as said ghdprentice, some can do the "same" with headphone at less cost... He is right..
For sure headphone and speakers will stay different experiences, but they can rival each other on some acoustic factors..
My best to you...
My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one’s satisfaction is almost boundless.
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While I do hope that "the case" is now closed, I want to add that I moved on to building my own electrostatic speakers by purchasing a kit from ER Audio (western Australia). My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one's satisfaction is almost boundless. And the bass response is fantastic from the panels alone for some of ER's models.
My goal has always been to find used Sander's Sound Systems (model 10e I believe) at under $7000. No such luck and I never got close to seeing that anyone was dumb or desperate enough to sell such gems as such a low cost. If I could do it I would purchase new. I still might some day. For me the amount required does represent somewhat of a fortune and not just a small one. However, if your goal is flat frequency response down to 20hz with power and a realistic and beautifully presented soundstage... this is one very excellent option for achieving that without selling your car or home. Just ask Roger and I'm sure he'll agree:-)
Better yet schedule a time to swing by his home to see what's possible. You might even get him to drive you around in his roadster and take you out to lunch!
Enjoy,
J
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Very thoughtful post and interesting...
Perhaps i misunderstood your first post,... It was formulated as an attack ... But i misinterpret you ...Then i apologize...
For the word "fortune" i will not go further, it is a metaphor born from my side : 100 bucks headphone , 200 bucks dac , 300 bucks Sansui Alpha...
Compared to that 3,500 bucks + all the work time to tune room and subs ... It is costlier...In money and time... Is it a "fortune" ? No , but we can use the word metaphorically if the difference in money is so great... The choice of word is relative to the context of the people who use it... A metaphor is a subjective decision...But how do you evaluate the time to create a room acoustic ?
It take me one year 7 day /7 to tune my room to my satisfaction... I am retired and i studied acoustic and experiment with it as a fun hobby... But i would have NEVER do it if i was not retired and bored... An headphone compared to this is economical in a superlative way...A super high end system is possible with few well chosen headphones at a relatively low cost... I did not know that before my successful headphone journey... But very few headphones are satisfying for me...
I am ok with what you describe...It correspond to my experience too...
My best to you...
Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...
First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.
Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).
Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.
Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.
Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?
Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.
Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.
Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.
-j
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Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...
First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.
Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).
Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.
Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.
Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?
Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.
Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.
Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.
-j
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A cheap electrostatics speakers will not give deep bass...
You will need an hybrid... They dont sell 700 bucks ..And you must add the acoustic dedicated room cost in money and in time...
Or an array of subwoofeers... My post spoke about 20 hertz..
Did you forgot ?
And my headphone are so good, better than ALL speakers i listened to in living room , you will need speakers way over the price of all my system cost : 700 dollars... Deep bass +strong dynamics = very good speakers then way more than cheap vintage headphone...
Thats my point...
It is you in a reverse of accusation who misread my post , clear for everyone, that some headphone as my K340 can give a soundfield at a cheap price that only costly speakers will beat...
A controlled acoustic room , i tune mine with resonators , CANNOT replace the speakers specs by the way only optimize then...If your speakers dont go near 20 hertz but only 50 , no room treatment will do more...
The use and meaning of a term is defined by HIS CONTEXT of use in the text where it is used...
A "fortune" compared to a cheap vintage headphone as the AKG K340 which sell for 100 bucks, is many times his price... Then it is clear for everyone with good faith that this metaphor dont means 50,000 bucks probably nor 500 bucks... more around many thousands... IT IS A METAPHOR...
All of what you have to do , instead of going on me for a "word" is asking...
I would have answer many thousands...
how much ?
It depend of the pocket of the people...
High quality headphone are not so easy to beat , on details, deep bass, holography, dynamics and listener envelopment If we add the cost of acoustic treatment and control... it is way more than my 100 bucks price for a vintage headphone..
Everybody knows that the cheapest solution is headphone.... The price of speakers able to go near 20 hertz +the cost of acoustic is way more...
now dont ask me the exact price it goes from 3,000 at minimum, if you are able to do all the acoustic by yourself as i did, to much more if you do not .., Which if we compare the two, a vintage headphone and Speakers+room acoustic , is for many people here metaphorically a fortune...
Case closed....
made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!
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@mahgister
And please stop making this about you. I don't and never did want to have a discussion about you! People who read your statement in question may very well be new to the subject and trying to build their own systems, experiences and knowledge base. I strongly believe your statement misleads people like this and quite possibly a great many others. It misleads unless you provide some numbers to back up your opinion.
It would make no sense for me to write directly to you when you aren't the audience. If I had written directly to you then I would still want to set the record straight on this: I do not agree with you and I'd be very surprised to find that I'm in the minority. Depending on what you mean by a fortune. But you won't tell us what you mean for some reason.
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@mahgister
And there you go again leveling personal attacks while avoiding the question. Are you trying to get me to do the same? I didn’t and I won’t, especially since you appear to have no interest in ever answering the question .
I made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!
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In the context of my post it is possible for anyone with a brain to figure out what i spoke about...
It is not necessary to wrote a post which suppose that my post had no value because you cannot figure out yourself a simple metaphor...
You can post a polite question about what i means ...
one thing is sure "an average agoner budget" has no meaning...
a"fortune" compared to a low cost basic system based on a vintage headphone as mine , this metaphor has a meaning.. Sorry...
Now answer my question : how cost a speakers able to deliver 20 hertz and higher frequencies on par with Omega Stax ?
A "fortune" compared to a vintage headophone... All this is already in my post..
Then my post has a meaning..
Next time be polite SPEAK TO ME not ABOUT ME to the crowd here and ask for precision...
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@mahgister and yet ...
you can certainly be critical of ME if you want but this isn’t about me. And it doesn’t help your point by accusing me of doing or being something whatever that might be.
This isn’t about you either. Is it? I meant for my question to be related to a statement you made. One that has little meaning unless you put numbers, relative values if you like, to lend credence to your statement that it would cost you "a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response".
Are you an audience of one, or was your statement meant to be read by others? Potentially thousands of others? Don’t you think it’s critical to consider what those others think is meant by a fortune? At least in some average sense?
If you don’t think it’s important to provide numbers or a range then I vehemently disagree with your statement, metaphorically stated or otherwise.
BTW, an average is just a mathematical number with some error taken into consideration. I think I could do that math if I needed to. I don't see why it's so difficult for you to do the same, albeit with a large-ish margin of error. It''s not really that difficult, and by no means preposterous as you seem to believe. If you cannot do such a thing then doesn't that render your original statement even less meaningless than it already is?
For instance, where did your number $10,000 come from? I see that you threw that in as an edit to your comment. If that's supposed to be an answer to my question did you consider averages wrt products or consumer budgets? I really don't think this kind of mathematical exercise is difficult in the slightest.
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No need to panic or over react on a metaphor...
@mahgister wrote ... "I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response..." What is "a fortune"? Based on my knowledge of the average agoner’s budget, what they’ve spent and might be willing to spend to create an exceptional audio experience ... the word "fortune" seems completely out of place here. One does need to include numbers or even just some vague range of numbers for the quote above to have much (if any) meaning.
My basic headphone system with the K340 cost me 700 bucks...My experience is limited compared to many here, but i never listen to anything speakers ( Tannoy, Quads, Magnepan etc ) or headphone ( even Stax) better than my actual K340 system..
How will cost a pair of speakers with or without subwoofers pair , able to give me around 20 hertz and high frequencies like Stax headphone ?
I called that a "fortune" ... Compared to my basic system... pick your number yourself , you are a great kid now.. and perhaps the son of Bill Gates... Then for you my "fortune" is a ridiculous metaphor for sure...
😊
By the way the "average agoner budget" is a preposterous concept...Nobody here is an average dude... We are all different...
And for most people 10,000 bucks is a "fortune"...
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I think @mahgister brings out that you can make tremendous improvements after you finalize your equipment. It takes work and is only limited by your imagination and effort. While for me that is for my main system. He took it to crazy levels with headphones.
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@mahgister wrote ...
"I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response..."
What is "a fortune"? Based on my knowledge of the average agoner's budget, what they've spent and might be willing to spend to create an exceptional audio experience ... the word "fortune" seems completely out of place here.
One does need to include numbers or even just some vague range of numbers for the quote above to have much (if any) meaning.
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ghdprentice experience is near mine...
So, my point? It is about your equipment… and for your main, venue. You can achieve the same basic sound quality and enjoyment level… but it takes work. There is nothing “innate” that makes one different from the other… it is your equipment choices.
I will add that it is not only the gear investment but acousic control of the room too...
I tuned my speakers/ room very well... One year full time work each day...
The soundfield was exactly like an headphone intimacy with the dynamic of speakers...The soundfield was AROUND me not in front of me between the speakers... The soundfield is recording dependent...
I lost my room...
I disliked all my 9 headphones in the past...It takes me 6 months of tuning, modifying , to optimize the only promising headphones i owned : the AKG k340..
I succeeded ... The soundfield is now speaker-like and out of my head when the recording make it possible... For example Organ recorded in church gave me the impression that i am in the church, the sound fill my room , not at all between my ears...
The speakers/room and headphone can be two extraordinary experiences... It is difficult with any of these choices... Why ?
Because acoustic of small room is very difficult to figure out ... Speakers dont go near 20 hertz if you dont pay for very costlier one and the higher frequencies of speakers too need to be well done to beat my electrostatic headphone cell...And i disliked all headphones i listen to in my life.... The K340 is a beast of a kind which create a soundfield very different compared to any other headphone... I listen the bass with them as if i was listening subwoofers...With my feet by bone resonance...
I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response...
But give me the costly speakers and i will tune the room so well the headphone will not compete with the speakers/room , even the miraculous AKG K340...
It is possible to create speakers and headphone experience on par with one another in spite of their basic differences ( no crosstalk with headphone ) but as ghdprentice said it ask for works..
The good news:
With the "virtual room system" of Dr. Choueri BACCH filters and dac, ( costly) speakers and headpghones can sound magical...
It will be my only upgrade if i upgrade my satisfying system one day...
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Sure I'm coming to this a few months late, but it's a relevant post and will remain relevant for some time. That, and of course this thread has been left open for comments.
@russ69 wrote above ...
"It takes a really good system to beat a decent set of headphones. I'm not sure a set of Totems are up to that task. If you are putting together a really good headphone system, it's going to take serious bucks to get better quality out of a loudspeaker system. Not what we want to hear but that is what it takes."
I haven't written on Agon for years, but this caught my eye as I'm trying to catch-up to those that have tried the latest headphones. While I'm not at all surprised by the comment above, I'm very surprised that no one has responded to it. To wit, while I completely agree that it takes an exceptional loudspeaker system in order to shower its listeners with an exceptional audio experience (however the listener defines that), I absolutely disagree and have spent a decade of my life disproving the contention that such a system would require one to spend "serious bucks".
How could one possibly know this? I know you never stepped foot into my "really good system", nor did you ever ask me how much I spent on it.
How does one define how serious one needs to be to spend "serious bucks"? From the tone of the comment I'm fairly certain that many of us can easily disprove his statement. The numbers matter. Significantly.
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Personally prefer speakers, but the room and speakers have to be good. Couple of reasons have already been covered by other posters - there are crosstalk and phase stuff that occurs around your head (even across your face) with speakers, so the soundfield/stage is a different experience. The other reason is I like low end you can feel in your chest, headphones can't do that.
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There is a difficulty most people do not have with "luxury" high end headphones. They are all made with leather and I have ethical objections to killing animals for their body parts or for food. If I wanted the headphone experience, this is a limit.
Over the years I have perfected the placement of Magnepan speakers driven by 833A single ended triode amplifiers in a round house with acoustic treatments.
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It takes a really good system to beat a decent set of headphones. I'm not sure a set of Totems are up to that task. If you are putting together a really good headphone system, it's going to take serious bucks to get better quality out of a loudspeaker system. Not what we want to hear but that is what it takes.
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I love headphones for the same reasons already mentioned this thread but still prefer listening to speakers despite their faults. I think it’s important to have a sound wave actually traveling across your head, with the driver far enough away from your head that your head doesn’t become reactive with the driver. The ear and the driver are best acoustically uncoupled to create externalizing effects. With software it is possible to simulate the effects of sound waves traveling across the head and outer ear to make an externalized sound field. I know the Smyth Realizer does this and Apple and others are starting to work on it too. I haven’t heard these technologies myself yet. Occasionally I’ll get a startling effect on headphones that tricks me into thinking I’m hearing something far away so I know it can work. Another issue though is it’s more comfortable and relaxing to not have things on or in my ears when I’m in the comfort and relative quiet of my home. When traveling headphones can block noise and sometimes keep ears warm so they make sense on multiple levels. I might wear them even if I’m not listening to anything. One thing that amazes me is just how noisy a car interior can be on the highway. It’s mostly bass rumble and that becomes apparent if I put on headphones that don’t block or cancel noise. I turn them way up and still can’t hear any bass!
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I agree with @yyzsantabarbara above. I too have a RAAL SR-1b Nearfield Ear Monitor (Earspeakers) system and they are the closest thing to the experience of listening to loudspeakers in a room. Of course, in my mind the gold standard is a live musical performance in a performing space but both speakers (I have had many speaker-based systems in the past) and headphones both have their merits.
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All in all I’ll be needing the system and headphones - the headphones for when I’m out and the system when I’m home. I understand these will be different experiences. Since my system isn’t properly set up yet I’m simply curious as to what to expect after being very very happy with the headphones. From dabbling with the temporary integrated I’m using now and the (probably) badly paired speakers I know a lot of my disappointment is due to the mud coming from an untreated room compared with the spectacular clarity of the headphones. These Totems are tiny but probably perfect for a small room like this but the mud I’m hearing when I swap them out (175mm cones compared to 125mm cones) really sound awful in this untreated room at present which has me wondering if I’m going to be able to use a subwoofer in that room. Anyway, I’ll find out in a couple of weeks once my Benchmark DAC3 arrives to complete my Benchmark setup.
This will be a dedicated listening room - I’m planning on hanging thick curtains on three walls (behind the speakers and both side walls) to dampen echoes - is this advisable? I’ll have the curtains cut into sections that I can open at intervals if need be to experiment.
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The soundstage is badly distorted on headphones; Pure left sounds only to arrive at the left ear, and are perceived as being way to the left, with nothing on the right to create a semblance of a credible space. Likewise on the right side.
Pure left sounds on speakers also reach the right ear and they are perceived as being on the left side of a stage, far more realistic.
Sound from speakers at an identical left and right level, say, a vocalist or lead instrument, iff* you are seated exactly the same distance from both speakers, will deliver a nearly convincing center image - except that, again, there will be sound coming from the left speaker reaching the right ear and vice-versa, so that center image will be poorly focused at best, and only to a person sitting directly in the middle. Anywhere else, the center image fails. Try this: play a tune with a vocalist singing in the center - sit right in the middle. Now hold a record jacket, edge to you nose, blocking the left signal to your right ear and vice-versa. You will immediately hear the singer pop into focus, more accurately and realistically, coming from the center.
With headphones, a sound at equal levels left and right will be solidly placed in the center. Also, headphones will be immune from room resonances and reverb.
So - which is better?
For critical listening, for just one person, I would say a good pair of headphones - with one important condition: Unless the musical source is binaural - and that can sound spectacularly realistic, you need to temper that exaggerated soundstage.
It’s not too hard to do.
You need a separation or blend control to narrow that space. On some recordings, like some early stereo, where there was an exaggerated separation for effect, that will make the music far more enjoyable. But I find it essential with just about any stereo source.
It could be as simple as putting a 5 to 50 Ohm variable resistor (depending on your cans’ impedance) between the left and right wires the headphones.
I have adapted a few cables with this simple mod.
Then you can dial in exactly what you perceive as a natural sound stage, and the center will always be far better focused than any pair of speakers can ever hope to achieve.
You will be amazed how much better headphones will sound.
* iff - that’s not a typo. Look it up.
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@thomastrouble , it’s taken me half a lifetime to get to a point where my full system approaches the specific things I like best about what even a $500 pair of headphones can do. Yes they are two different experiences. But there are some areas where headphones have advantages, and some areas where headphones simply can’t replicate the experience of a full system.
But headphones have this blazingly fast quickness and ease of detail delivery, with drive and energy and great dynamics, that even now my full system can’t quite match - but it’s finally getting awful close. It’s this one quality that I’ve felt was very important for full enjoyment of music as it sounds more alive. Every now and then I’ll listen to a song on my system and then on my $500 pair of headphones (no fancy setup or anything, just Bluetooth to phone), and I’ll take note of the differences. Suggest others chiming in on this thread give that a try if you haven’t lately. You might be surprised!
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Listened all night after getting B&W i5 in ear wireless headphones with an Android phone. Being freed from the wire immerses you in a sea of fabulous sound. Sennheiser TW3 if you want more bass at the expense of some transparency compared to the B&W. At these prices embrace the healing power of and.
* quantum leap over AirBuds.
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You may never equal the headphone with the speakers and the room you now have. If volume is in play, and low bass, stick with headphones and everyone will be happier I guess. You see to be leaning that way. And if speakers and headphones are going to cost the same, stick with headphones.
I know how fabulous headphones can sound these days but the listening experience is night and day for me and if forced into headphones I could probably adapt. They just don't sound like a good loudspeaker, and that's what I do prefer.
You might consider an extreme nearfield experience with your speakers and see how it might sound. Keep experimenting with the Totems. Good luck!
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Just to add in case anybody chimes in on cans and portable amp - the most important thing for me is a wide soundstage but I sacrifice this by using closed back because of the bass - can I find both? Not sure how much an amp affects this, but I like forward mids (vocals). My other little portable amp which I love is an older Oppo HA2 - I think this sounds warmer than the Ifi Gryphon. I’m curious about the Audeze but these will also be the closed back.
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Re my headphones - too many to mention, all quality, some cheap but great for my sound preference, “good” bass. My cheap DT770s at $130 gets me 95% of the way of my favorites right now but at over $2000 with a good cable - Fostex TH 900 (for bass). Waiting for a pair of Audeze LCD2 to test out that flavor.
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Thanks guys, wow, a lot to read here!
I thought I was done with my quest for great headphone and headphone amp combo but….
I should have mentioned my Benchmark amp and preamp will be used in a small room as I’m now in an apartment. I used to own big Magnapan speakers with great amps and I’ll probably never enjoy music like that again - I like my music loud but I can’t do that in this apartment. I’m out on the town a lot so I use portable headphone amps, right now the Ifi Gryphon. I’m happy but always wondering if there is better in a truly portable headphone amp.
my room is maybe 14 feet long by maybe 12 feet wide so I guess I’ll be giving up good soundstaging which I love. Using Totem 1 bookshelf speakers and will hook up a Velodyne sub with these. However today I swapped the Totems out for a Pair of Paradigm S2 v2 - horrible! My room isn’t yet treated (will be in two more weeks) but the Paradigms were just muddy as hell compared to the Totems and I’m wondering if this was due to the bigger cones on the paradigms coupled with an untreated room.
right now I’m just dabbling with what I have laying around (Naim Nait 5i ) until my Benchmark system is complete with the DAC 3. However, I doubt that will have any effect on the Paradigms sounding better, but who knows how much of this is due to a very untreated room.
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I'm a speaker listener as I don't like being held captive by headphone wires and the weight of something hanging off my head and making my ears sweaty. I do use wireless RF headphones open back headphones for late night cinema but that's the extent my experience.
If I were to make the choice of going down the rabbit hole of luxury headphones and premium headphone amps, maybe I'd have a different opinion.
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Stereo is engineered so that the right ear hears some of the left speaker and and vice versa.
Not necessarily true. In fact, most times not true. I would even go so far as to say that "stereo is engineered" is an oxymoron. I won't elaborate. Talk to someone who does studio engineering or simply read about studio engineering.
Red Burgundy is made from Pinto Noir grapes, not red Zinfandel ( original indigenous North American grape) & the two are her different. Both can be excellent but it’s like comparing a tube amp w/ a class D solid state. Maybe a delicious Oregonian Pinot would have been more appropriate?
I am quite aware. My analogy to two completely different wines that are not only from different grape varieties but from different countries with completely different character was on purpose. But now we are getting both silly and pompous, aren't we? :-)
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