Headphones vs speakers….

Sure I'm coming to this a few months late, but it's a relevant post and will remain relevant for some time. That, and of course this thread has been left open for comments.

@russ69  wrote above ...

"It takes a really good system to beat a decent set of headphones. I'm not sure a set of Totems are up to that task. If you are putting together a really good headphone system, it's going to take serious bucks to get better quality out of a loudspeaker system. Not what we want to hear but that is what it takes."

I haven't written on Agon for years, but this caught my eye as I'm trying to catch-up to those that have tried the latest headphones. While I'm not at all surprised by the comment above, I'm very surprised that no one has responded to it. To wit, while I completely agree that it takes an exceptional loudspeaker system in order to shower its listeners with an exceptional audio experience (however the listener defines that), I absolutely disagree and have spent a decade of my life disproving the contention that such a system would require one to spend "serious bucks".

How could one possibly know this? I know you never stepped foot into my "really good system", nor did you ever ask me how much I spent on it. 

How does one define how serious one needs to be to spend "serious bucks"? From the tone of the comment I'm fairly certain that many of us can easily disprove his statement. The numbers matter. Significantly.

@mahgister wrote ...

"I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response..."

What is "a fortune"? Based on my knowledge of the average agoner's budget, what they've spent and might be willing to spend to create an exceptional audio experience ... the word "fortune" seems completely out of place here.

One does need to include numbers or even just some vague range of numbers for the quote above to have much (if any) meaning.

@mahgister

And there you go again leveling personal attacks while avoiding the question. Are you trying to get me to do the same? I didn’t and I won’t, especially since you appear to have no interest in ever answering the question .

I made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!

@mahgister and yet ...

you can certainly be critical of ME if you want but this isn’t about me. And it doesn’t help your point by accusing me of doing or being something whatever that might be.

This isn’t about you either. Is it? I meant for my question to be related to a statement you made. One that has little meaning unless you put numbers, relative values if you like, to lend credence to your statement that it would cost you "a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response".

Are you an audience of one, or was your statement meant to be read by others? Potentially thousands of others? Don’t you think it’s critical to consider what those others think is meant by a fortune? At least in some average sense?

If you don’t think it’s important to provide numbers or a range then I vehemently disagree with your statement, metaphorically stated or otherwise.

BTW, an average is just a mathematical number with some error taken into consideration. I think I could do that math if I needed to. I don't see why it's so difficult for you to do the same, albeit with a large-ish margin of error. It''s not really that difficult, and by no means preposterous as you seem to believe. If you cannot do such a thing then doesn't that render your original statement even less meaningless than it already is?

For instance, where did your number $10,000 come from? I see that you threw that in as an edit to your comment. If that's supposed to be an answer to my question did you consider averages wrt products or consumer budgets? I really don't think this kind of mathematical exercise is difficult in the slightest.

@mahgister 

And please stop making this about you. I don't and never did want to have a discussion about you! People who read your statement in question may very well be new to the subject and trying to build their own systems, experiences and knowledge base. I strongly believe your statement misleads people like this and quite possibly a great many others. It misleads unless you provide some numbers to back up your opinion.

It would make no sense for me to write directly to you when you aren't the audience. If I had written directly to you then I would still want to set the record straight on this: I do not agree with you and I'd be very surprised to find that I'm in the minority. Depending on what you mean by a fortune. But you won't tell us what you mean for some reason.

Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...

First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.

Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).

Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.

Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.

Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?

Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.

Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.

Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.

-j

While I do hope that "the case" is now closed, I want to add that I moved on to building my own electrostatic speakers by purchasing a kit from ER Audio (western Australia). My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one's satisfaction is almost boundless. And the bass response is fantastic from the panels alone for some of ER's models.

My goal has always been to find used Sander's Sound Systems (model 10e I believe) at under $7000. No such luck and I never got close to seeing that anyone was dumb or desperate enough to sell such gems as such a low cost. If I could do it I would purchase new.  I still might some day. For me the amount required does represent somewhat of a fortune and not just a small one. However, if your goal is flat frequency response down to 20hz with power and a realistic and beautifully presented soundstage... this is one very excellent option for achieving that without selling your car or home. Just ask Roger and I'm sure he'll agree:-)

Better yet schedule a time to swing by his home to see what's possible. You might even get him to drive you around in his roadster and take you out to lunch!

Enjoy,

J

Mahgister

Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.

The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.

Something seems not quite right here. When I refer to a forward soundstage I mean you don’t even need to get out a measuring tape to know that the vocalist is betweend 10 and 12 feet directly in front of you singing 2 feet above your ears. Snare drum hit almost precisely 8 feet behind and 6 feet to the right of the vocalist. That’s now about 20 feet in front and to the right. Air off the stage and reverb from the room way up to the left and in the corner approx 30 feet away.

Are you telling me that you can specifically pinpoint extremely low level noise reflecting off everything in the room and you can be certain that sound is "mapping" the room so realistically that you know the upper left corner of the sound venue is 10 feet up and 30 feet to the right of your listening position?

Is the size and air of the venue different for every recording? If you say yes I’d like to know who else on the planet is having this same sort of experience with headphones or IEMs. Don’t get me wrong. I do realize that all the "air" and low level info is there. Headphones are the best way to ensure you’re able to hear all the information including the extreme low level noise that fills out the soundstage with precise cues as the entirety of the venue.

Edit:

I should add for those that might be new here that a recording must be "special" in order to present a listener with such realistic dimensions. I'm only referring to those types of recordings, not all of which are recorded in live venues but rather in studios with sound recording 'magicians' at the helm. I won't go down the list of all the ones I know because many others have covered them on Audiogon Forums.