Headphones vs speakers….

Generally there is an headphone like sound inside the head...

Convolution filters cannot change that...It will improve the frequencies response... but will not change the headphone like sound...

BACCH filters can...

In the mean time i use the only one speaker like headphone ... AKG k340..

😊

I will take several of each please and toss in some modern DSP like a nice convolution filter in Roon for a specific pair of headphones to take things to the highest possible level cost effectively. Thank you!

I disliked all headphones i bought save one... (9 headphones of three different types )

I prefer my 2 way box speakers M-Audio Mv 40 , payed 100 bucks IN AN ACOUSTIC CORNER DESIGNED FOR THEM , to any headphone.... Save the one i love... AKG K340...After loosing my big speakers/acoustic room , they save me from audiophile despair... My little box now astound me for the ratio S.Q. /price but ONLY in a dedicated corner acoustically designed for them... Nearfield listening NEVER replace acoustic... Sorry ....

I have tried several times over the years to like headphones. I have some nice headphones and headphone amps. I rarely use them; much prefer listening to speakers.

With that said, I have several very nice speaker based systems, two of which use active ATCs.

Exactly...

And it can beat on many acoustic factors even speakers systems of superior cost , especially those which are not in a dedicated acoustic room...

They dont compare , ....but with a BACCH filter system they may became IDENTICAL...

Anyway my Headphone system will cost me 1,600 dollars, 100, headphone, 200 dac, 300 amplifier, 1000 pre-amp or headphone amplifier and they will beat  many if not most very costly speakers system in a living room...

One true thing about phones is for $2000-3000 you can get some that are comparable to >$20,000 speakers, so they are an audio bargain in that sense. I am happy with my Sennheisers for now, and will hold off upgrading them and put the money elsewhere in my system. FWIW.

The price has nothing to do with it... I dont feel the same as you with a 700 bucks system...

No headphone can beat a speakers/room at the top level...But top level system in a dedicated room are not so frequent..

But some headphone can rival this in their own way at a fraction of the price in my case..

Headphone and speakers will become the same on the same level only with a BACCH set of filters...

In the meantime i am completely satisfied with an headphone system that rival and beat all of what i listened to  in any living room.. 😊

I spoke about good average system, Quad, Magnepan and Tannoy etc ... I never listened to very high end costly system in a dedicated acoustic room ...I tuned my own dedicated room and my headphone rival it because my speakers were good but average...

The acoustic revolution actually dated back many years ago already is by Dr. Choueri and BACCH filters... No more difference between speakers and headphone... Any other upgrade than this could be useless if not absolutely necessary... It is my opinion only for sure...

Then after Dr. Choueri  BACCH , the difference from speakers and headphone is no more significant , save confort and group listening with speakers, not the soundfield...

Anyway my K340 give me already  a taste of an "out of the head" soundfield...

 

Despite having, and enjoying my pretty high end headphone and amp system (Grado GS3000, Astell and Kern amp, about $3500 combined), they will never, to me, sound as good as my full system.

Thanks for your post...

Dr.Choueri is an acoustic genius and a physicist, after him there is no more difference because of crosstalk between speakers and headphone...

People dont understand it or dont know about it... In a way all other dac upgrading is obsolete or without it a lost of money...

This is my opinion after reading his papers and interviews...

To be clear:

All headphones i experienced display a more FIXED soundstage small or huge, of their own determined by their drivers characteristic ...The K340 display a more variable soundstage which reproduce more the recording specific acoustic trade-off...In some case with a completely out of the head impression so vivid i can SEE the instruments in my room or out of the limit of my room ... A speakers/dedicated acoustic room do the same on a more precise level if the room is well tuned for Specific speakers  and for my ears location  to begin with ...

What you describe can be APPROXIMATED very well with SOME headphone... No headphone can beat a TOP speakers/acoustic dedicated room by itself alone ...once this is said and is clearly written...

I know that in his own way some headphone can give a soundfield which is speaker like... Thats my point...

But it cannot beat all good speakers/ in a dedicated acoustic room in MY OWN EXPERIENCE on all acoustic factors ...

But this approximation with the K340 is so good , especially compared to low cost speakers (so good they could be as my Mission Cyrus 781 was), that i can live with it and listen music... ( my Mission speakers specs were not enough to beat my headphone anyway even in their dedicated room )

And there is an easy solution to rival any speakers/room with the K340 , it is to buy the Dr, Choueri BACCH filters...

They cost too much for me now and anyway i am happy as it is..But it would be my only upgrade...

In some good recording my K340 give a soundstage filling my room not my head...

Is it comparable to the same level as a top speakers in a dedicated acoustic room as i could have done with one pair ? No not at the same level... With the Dr. Choueri BACCH filters yes at the same level if i use my K340...

With the two operas Akhnaten of Philip GlaSS and the Liszt Christus by Antal Dorati for example i listen to an experience where i can pinpoint very precisely where are the instruments the chorus AROUND ME in the room and not in my head...

most speakers in a living room dont do that...

Very good speakers in their dedicated acoustically controlled room will do better in a more precise way for sure... But i can live with my K340 as it is ... 😊

Here we will have a communication problem : i spoke about my MODIFIED K340 not about any other headphone... i never listened to many top headphone of today...I dont know...Is the RAAL able to do this ? i dont know...

 

Something seems not quite right here. When I refer to a forward soundstage I mean you don’t even need to get out a measuring tape to know that the vocalist is betweend 10 and 12 feet directly in front of you singing 2 feet above your ears. Snare drum hit almost precisely 8 feet behind and 6 feet to the right of the vocalist. That’s now about 20 feet in front and to the right. Air off the stage and reverb from the room way up to the left and in the corner approx 30 feet away.

Are you telling me that you can specifically pinpoint extremely low level noise reflecting off everything in the room and you can be certain that sound is "mapping" the room so realistically that you know the upper left corner of the sound venue is 10 feet up and 30 feet to the right of your listening position?

 

 

I read you right...

What you describe if you read my past posts is EXACTLY what i myself described as my soundfield ...

I learned how to create this in my room ...

I even in my past posts here use the same expression as you... I was seeing the musicians AROUND me...near me etc it is recording dependant..

But i never thought that an acoustic experience with perfect imaging, soundstage varying dimensions according to EACH recording trade-off, and holographic volume of each sound sources , and listener evevelopment ( ratio of the sound sources volumes related to the listener position inclusio0n ) i never thought that any headphone could emulate that IN HIS OWN WAY...

Some can it seems ...

The AKG K340 optimized can do it... I always disliked any headphones i listen to because the soundfield was between the ears or in a plane surface in front of my head... The K340 give a soundfield out of the head and speaker like , especially so with most well recorded classical albums ..

The reason why is this so, is simple... There is inside two new technologies even for today , hybridation of electrostatic and dynamic cell at 4000 hertz, and 5 fine Tuned Helmholtz passive resonators... The soundfield is so realistic that all my 9 other headphone are unnatural and artificial... To be blunt they sound as trash compared to it and i will never use them...

Then SOME headphone could go where no headphone ever go...😊

I dont know which one can do it apart the K340, the RAAL ? the OMEGA STAX? the ToP HIFIMAN ? this i dont know...I never own them nor optimize any of them ...

There is 4 characteristics in a soundfield , the timbre experience being the ground fundamental ...

--imaging differentitaion , ---soundstage variable dimensions, ---holographic volume of each sound sources, and--- listener envelopment or immersiveness..

I learned how to create them in my room...I learned how to CONTROL them...

I never know that some headphone could give me these 4 soundfield aspects too with a natural timbre experience and deep bass and refined highs... The K340 can... But it take me 6 months to figure out why and 6 modifications ... Then it is possible..

When i listen organ music of Bach on my headphone the soundfield is so realistic and out of the head , i can see the church, and i keep my eyes open , because each time i cannot believe that the sound do not come from the two cups...😊

If it was no so , i would have been desesperate when i had lost my speakers/room after one year of successful tuning...

Read the Dr. Gorike patent, you will learn why this headphone was the flagship of AKG and why it was never refined and discontinued...Too costly to make and too hard to figure out for most consumers...

I spoke to a Kennerton guy and he said to me, after i ask him why they do not try to create a hybrid ? "We tried but it is too complex and too costly to do it right and make a profit"... This give an explanation why there is no real hybrid on the market... The Dharma was not a real hybrid because his electrostatic cell was working ONLY as a super tweeter, and there is no passive resonators then no deep bass experience.. .The soundfield is not holographic probably... I never listened to it ...And i am not interested to try it... The passive resonators in the K340 create a dual chamber which give this speaker like effect and separate clearly mids and bass and deep bass..

Mahgister

Again we were discussing frequency response only. The value I place on my own large and ’open’ (please don’t ask me to define this word) audio presentation with a forward soundstage so realistic that you often cannot close your eyes and listen because you are CERTAIN that the musicians are there in front of you in your home and are positioned precisely in their respective positions in such a way that seems to defy logic? And listeners all around you in front and behind talking softly or clanging dinner plates and wine glasses ... It will be some time before a headphone experience can duplicate this along with the "air" of the venue present in front above and to the sides and way up on the corners ... and obviously no way to provide the visceral experience one feels from the power due to a fleet of bass instruments in Carnegie Hall reverberating off the extreme dimensions for example.

The audio industry isn’t close wrt inner ear experiences or whatever term is being used these days for sound produced by high end headphones. I won’t say never though. Not that anyone is asking, but IMO AI is very likely to have an impact and maybe an enormous one. I won’t say how long before such a thing can be affordable or even realistic.

 

I know that what you claim is true...

Because i did it with my room...

You are spotless right ... 😊

It was the funniest time of my audio journey when i was tuning my room... But it was so hard i will never do it again... It was fun to learn... But when you had learn , the time it will take to do it again , tuning time for 100 resonators, will be very long in my case and way less fun 😁... Anyway now without dedicated room i am satisfied and not frustrated at all with my K340...Some headphones can be more than just very good...

Speakers/room is the best optimal way to reach hi-fi...But as said ghdprentice, some can do the "same" with headphone at less cost... He is right..

For sure headphone and speakers will stay different experiences, but they can rival each other on some acoustic factors..

My best to you...

My reasoning for doing so is that even though there was a tremendous amount of work involved, the degree to which the frequency response can be tweaked to one’s satisfaction is almost boundless.

Very thoughtful post and interesting...

Perhaps i misunderstood your first post,... It was formulated as an attack ... But i misinterpret you ...Then i apologize...

For the word "fortune" i will not go further, it is a metaphor born from my side : 100 bucks headphone , 200 bucks dac , 300 bucks Sansui Alpha...

Compared to that 3,500 bucks + all the work time to tune room and subs ... It is costlier...In money and time... Is it a "fortune" ? No , but we can use the word metaphorically if the difference in money is so great... The choice of word is relative to the context of the people who use it... A metaphor is a subjective decision...But how do you evaluate the time to create a room acoustic ?

It take me one year 7 day /7 to tune my room to my satisfaction... I am retired and i studied acoustic and experiment with it as a fun hobby... But i would have NEVER  do it if i was not retired and bored... An headphone compared to this is economical in a superlative way...A super high end system is possible with few well chosen  headphones at a relatively low cost... I did not know that before my successful headphone journey... But very few headphones are satisfying for me...

I am ok with what you describe...It correspond to my experience too...

My best to you...

Now this is good stuff Mahgister. Much appreciated that you were willing to stick with it and get down to the dirty details. Yes, I’d also like to call the case closed, but I’d like to close it from my end as well...

First, there was no reason this ever needed to get personal - I really was just trying to stay on topic and thought I did that. Clearly that didn’t come across. Next time I’ll try and be more careful so as to avoid such issues.

Second, you were right: in my haste to respond yesterday I forgot to include that I achieved flat response down to 25hz via 2 subs (I assume the 5hz isn’t that important to you, but if it is please explain why. Not a challenge or accusation - I’d just like to know your source material that produces a noticeable difference with that last 5hz. Assume down 2db at 20hz from 25hz. Can you hear it or feel it? At immense SPL I bet you can, but we never stipulated such a SPL). Placement and many adjustments to frequency response of the subs were very time consuming and most often produced poor results. Getting it just right was not easy and took much longer than I had hoped, largely because adjustments to the dimensions of the adjustable waveguide I created. (20’ x 40’ room with sloping ceiling up to 24 feet and heavy treated curtains that could be moved forward or back and opened or closed).

Third, SPL and room dimensions have tremendous importance wrt this discussion. I believe neither of us have done a good job of pointing this out. If my listening levels are lower than yours for my musical tastes... does my system qualify? I was extremely happy with the results once the work was completed. I think this point needed to be stated up front, and I should have included it in my posts yesterday.

Fourth, I tend to be an insufferably relentless tweaker and am always willing to take chances on used equipment provided it’s shipped correctly and proves to me (after much testing) that everything is as good as new after break in. Everyone reading this forum’s posts has the same option to buy used from extremely reputable sellers and be just as happy as if they purchased new. IMO this is the best way to get into high end - starting with quality lower priced used equipment get the best sound you can out of your listening space via tweaks and treatments and a lot of positional adjustments made after taking a lot of breaks. In my case it was taking these breaks that resulted in most of the time consumed, but I proved to myself it was needed so I kept at it in this fairly inefficient manner until I was happy with my listening space. Once comfortable with my room I then bought and sold equipment at many different price ranges and compared, often with several systems in my possession so I could swap speakers and amps (primarily) in and out and compare. Yes, I realize not many people will or can go to such lengths but some of us will. I believe my experiences prove that anyone can achieve similar results at lower costs if they really want to do so badly enough.

Fifth, after years working on my room and systems I achieved the best results with one of my lowest priced systems. Under $3500 for the electrostatics + subs. Used but outstanding and as good as new. Sure this is a lot of money for many of us but not much for many others. I do consider it a lot of money. Is it a fortune though? Even metaphorically?

Sixth, not many people would call $3500 a fortune. Most people reading these forums will not. How do I know? This is a different question, but let’s just say I do know this. If you want to know how that’s a different thread.

 

Also, I doubt this would have made much difference to our "discussion" but I believe the colloquialism you are referring to is "a small fortune". You may not think this clarification is important, but this is a common phrase used in these circumstances. After all, a large % of people purchase autos at around the $20k mark and only some of them consider that a fortune. Some would consider it a small fortune. I really doubt many of these same people, if audiophiles, would think that $3500 is even a small fortune. After all, many of us can do without our cars but never without our audio systems.

 

Finally, and this could have been stated up front but actually I think will be understood by many but not all: this entire topic relates to frequency response. In my opinion the "magic" of the room signature and the many systems producing sound within it was only partly due to the frequency response of the speakers and room. Hopefully this point is well understood. If not there must be hundreds of of posts addressing it within this forum.

-j

 

A cheap electrostatics speakers will not give deep bass...

You will need an hybrid... They dont sell 700 bucks ..And you must add the acoustic dedicated room cost in money and in time...

Or an array of subwoofeers... My post spoke about 20 hertz..

Did you forgot ?

And my headphone are so good, better than ALL speakers i listened to in living room , you will need speakers way over the price of all my system cost : 700 dollars... Deep bass +strong dynamics = very good speakers then way more than cheap vintage headphone...

Thats my point...

It is you in a reverse of accusation who misread my post , clear for everyone, that some headphone as my K340 can give a soundfield at a cheap price that only costly speakers will beat...

A controlled acoustic room , i tune mine with resonators , CANNOT replace the speakers specs by the way only optimize then...If your speakers dont go near 20 hertz but only 50 , no room treatment will do more...

The use and meaning of a term is defined by HIS CONTEXT of use in the text where it is used...

A "fortune" compared to a cheap vintage headphone as the AKG K340 which sell for 100 bucks, is many times his price... Then it is clear for everyone with good faith that this metaphor dont means 50,000 bucks probably nor 500 bucks... more around many thousands... IT IS A METAPHOR...

All of what you have to do , instead of going on me for a "word" is asking...

I would have answer many thousands...

how much ?

It depend of the pocket of the people...

High quality headphone are not so easy to beat , on details, deep bass, holography, dynamics  and listener envelopment If we add the cost of acoustic treatment and control... it is way more than my 100 bucks price for a vintage headphone..

Everybody knows that the cheapest solution is headphone.... The price of speakers able to go near 20 hertz +the cost of acoustic is way more...

now dont ask me the exact price it goes from 3,000 at minimum, if you are able to do all the acoustic by yourself as i did, to much more if you do not .., Which if we compare the two, a vintage headphone and Speakers+room acoustic , is for many people here metaphorically a fortune...

Case closed....

 

 

 

 

made my point: I vehemently disagree with your statement! I absolutely can reproduce such frequency responses. I have done such a thing many times over given a very well selected and treated room and a wide variety of not expensive electrostatics. I have no idea why you claim to have experience to the contrary - you don’t even provide room dimensions!

 

 

 

In the context of my post it is possible for anyone with a brain to figure out what i spoke about...

It is not necessary to wrote a post which suppose that my post had no value because you cannot figure out yourself a simple metaphor...

You can post a polite question about what i means ...

one thing is sure "an average agoner budget" has no meaning...

a"fortune" compared to a low cost basic system based on a vintage headphone as mine , this metaphor has a meaning.. Sorry...

Now answer  my question : how cost a speakers able to deliver 20 hertz and higher frequencies on par with Omega Stax ?

A "fortune" compared to a vintage headophone... All this is already in my post..

Then my post has a meaning..

Next time be polite SPEAK TO ME not ABOUT ME to the crowd here and ask for precision...

No need to panic or over react on a metaphor...

 

 

My basic headphone system with the K340 cost me 700 bucks...My experience is limited compared to many here, but i never listen to anything speakers ( Tannoy, Quads, Magnepan etc ) or headphone ( even Stax) better than my actual K340 system..

How will cost a pair of speakers with or without subwoofers pair , able to give me around 20 hertz and high frequencies like Stax headphone ?

I called that a "fortune" ... Compared to my basic system... pick your number yourself , you are a great kid now.. and perhaps the son of Bill Gates... Then for you my "fortune" is a ridiculous metaphor for sure...

😊

By the way the "average agoner budget" is a preposterous concept...Nobody here is an average dude... We are all different...

And for most people 10,000 bucks is a "fortune"...

ghdprentice experience is near mine...

So, my point? It is about your equipment… and for your main, venue. You can achieve the same basic sound quality and enjoyment level… but it takes work. There is nothing “innate” that makes one different from the other… it is your equipment choices.

I will add that it is not only the gear investment but acousic control of the room too...

I tuned my speakers/ room very well... One year full time work each day...

The soundfield was exactly like an headphone intimacy with the dynamic of speakers...The soundfield was AROUND me not in front of me between the speakers... The soundfield is recording dependent...

I lost my room...

I disliked all my 9 headphones in the past...It takes me 6 months of tuning, modifying , to optimize the only promising headphones i owned : the AKG k340..

I succeeded ... The soundfield is now speaker-like and out of my head when the recording make it possible... For example Organ recorded in church gave me the impression that i am in the church, the sound fill my room , not at all between my ears...

The speakers/room and headphone can be two extraordinary experiences... It is difficult with any of these choices... Why ?

Because acoustic of small room is very difficult to figure out ... Speakers dont go near 20 hertz if you dont pay for very costlier one and the higher frequencies of speakers too need to be well done to beat my electrostatic headphone cell...And i disliked all headphones i listen to in my life.... The K340 is a beast of a kind which create a soundfield very different compared to any other headphone... I listen the bass with them as if i was listening subwoofers...With my feet by bone resonance...

I prefer headphone now because , it would have cost me a fortune to buy speakers on the same league of frequencies response...

But give me the costly speakers and i will tune the room so well the headphone will not compete with the speakers/room , even the miraculous AKG K340...

It is possible to create speakers and headphone experience on par with one another in spite of their basic differences ( no crosstalk with headphone ) but as ghdprentice said it ask for works..

The good news:

With the "virtual room system" of Dr. Choueri BACCH filters and dac, ( costly) speakers and headpghones can sound magical...

It will be my only upgrade if i upgrade my satisfying system one day...