Have you moved away from full range to standmount speakers + subs?
I want to know if you have been on a journey moving from a large full range speaker to a smaller one paired wit subs, maybe even four subs.
Maybe you moved away from the big speakers because you had too much bass or you got a better soundstage from the smaller speakers. Let me know what motivated you and if you think it’s better now.
My motivation for wanting to try smaller speakers.
I have the Tekton DI and until a month ago I was using a LM845P SET amp to drive them.
It only sounded good on simple jazz and vocals but on complex music everything was falling apart.
I am not playing loud but I think it was the low 2 ohm load in the midrange that made the LM break down.
I bought a used PS Audio BHK250 and pre and it was like getting new speakers. Never ever had it occurred to me that speaker and amp matching could have such a profound effect.
So I am enjoying my speakers now and listen to music I have avoided like the plague and enjoying it (:
But all of this got me thinking, what if I paired my LM845P with an easy to drive speaker and paired it with some subs?
Then the LM845 could do what it's best at, playing glorious midrange and the subs could play the bass.
So that's my motivation for trying smaller speakers.
I am also hoping that maybe I could get better and more even bass with 2 or 4 subs. Maybe a better soundstage because the small speakers have a very small baffle.
I'm one of those that went the other way as well. I had B&W CDM1 with Velodyne servo sub purchased in mid 90's. Before the fero-fluid dried up in the monitors, the system had a lot of detail and the sub could play low double-bass notes. However, I was constantly messing with the sub setup: use the sub-crossover/don't use it, tweaking crossover point, adjusting volume. It kinda got old, and it took up a lot of space. It's not really true that you can just put a sub anywhere in the room.
About 18 months ago, I replaced monitors with Totem Sky monitors - huge soundstage and unbelievable detail. Also, big bonus for me - they sounded best in my room only about 10-12" from the wall. A couple months ago, I replaced Totem and sub with Forte III's. They are also great in my room - I can have them about 9-12" away from the wall in my room for optimal bass and soundstage.
No more messing the sub, don't miss it one bit. Nice full, big sound, plenty of detail. The Forte III's don't have the soundstage of the Totems but overall a much better user experience - set and forget. Wish I would have bough Klipsch Forte or Cornwall 25 years ago instead of messing monitors/subs. If a local dealer had any Totem towers to demo, I think I likely would have bought them to get the two-channel (no HT in man cave) bass I wanted with the great detail and soundstage, and ditch the sub.
Having said that, being a bass guitarist and my brother having been a drummer, we both feel like what was lost in terms of the massive Totem soundstage was made up for in "realism" in the Klipsch - I hear the tone of the bass such that it sounds like my Fender and Rick bass guitars I have in the room, acoustic guitars sound just like my Gibson J200, the snare and cymbals sound like my brothers drum kit - unlike any other stereo speakers we've heard. For us, that's a special kind of fun.
You may want to audition some, "Servo Controlled" subwoofers if your going to tread this path. None are available on the cheap. But "IMHO"? They are well worth the extra cost involved. I have been using these since first finding them in the early 80's. "I have even modified (non-SC sub's) and built from scratch a few in my quest as an audiophile". So I do have a bit of experience with this subject matter. Why 'Servo Controlled"? Because everything else, "Regardless of cost". Simply pales in comparison! Their accuracy is quite addictive...
My first experience with a "satellite/sub-woofer" system was about 50 years ago. It was the M&K (Miller & Kreisel?) system. I was blown away by it. And I had heard quite a few not quite full-range systems. As a kid it was difficult to get to audition big time systems in NYC, had to sort of piggy back on a "real" buyer.
Even at that juncture I knew that the smaller system wasn't for me. I'm all about big and full range. At some point I will have to simplify things as a thousand pounds of audio will be unmanageable. Yeah right! When they pry my cold dead fingers from the remote!
Read wolf's earlier post. He raises a good point when he states that large speakers are nothing more than a collection of smaller ones in a larger box. For example take the same midrange driver, allow this driver the required cabinet space behind the driver and then place one is a small narrow box and the other in a larger box with a wider baffle. In the better design you will hear less of the cabinet and more of the driver itself. It can be no other way. Large cabinets are almost universally a detriment and this is especially true of large lossy thin walled cabinets. Generally speaking I believe that it is much easier to get a smaller speaker to image well than a larger one.
I think that dougshroeder is dead wrong when he speaks in absolutes about such things. He often leaves out the necessary caveats of different designs. Give his post on this issue no more credence than you would any other member!
I am not an expert, but I always thought you went with tower speakers was to create a bigger sound stage. Why do some systems sound better because they created a sound stage to allow the listener to visualize their sound.
It’s been said politics and religion in the same bed a form of crowd control then and now lol Tekton and crowd control.. more like vintage 901s and subwoofers with a headache added.
audition_audio, with MC's high post count in a short period it seems he just post's a whole lot, (many times being helpful) but not just about those few brands mentioned. Jesus was overly persecuted too! 😄👍
@mission The Constant product BS can be an opinion, I guess you have to allow that. What’s annoying is the look at me crud. Most do…once ! That Company could advertise painting their product in lead paint to help with noise transfer… you’ed see it in Buddies sound room..cause it all helps and that’s the best way…. What ??
I've moved from smaller speakers and subs to full range speakers. But I think that's because I now have more space but I was also influenced by the misinformation about smaller speakers having better imagining.
I think the more important thing is amp/speaker matching.
For my first set of true hi-fi speakers, I chose Salk Songtowers. Partly because they seemed like a natural progression from bookshelf/subwoofer set up I was accustomed to. They were also well reviewed.
I recently sold my Salk Songtowers. They were driven by a Primaluna Evo 400. The person buying it wanted to hear them first before committing to the purchase. He was concerned about bass response.
I cued up UB40 Red Wine. I took him 2 seconds of the needle drop to commit. He was super impressed and asked 'no subwoofer, right?'.
The Salks are easy to drive. But there is a very slight impedance dip below 4 Ohms in the bass. They were 88db efficient. Not bad.
I currently own Tannoy Turnberry. These are 93db efficient and 8 Ohms (never dips below 5 Ohms). What has been a revelation is that I'm hearing things 'up front' that were pushed to the back in the Salks. Also I now know what effortless bass sounds like. This is simply a very good speaker/amp match. I think that is more important than speaker type.
I would not have been able to tell you Salks were missing anything until the switch. They were great speakers that needed a different amp.
However, I think I will not buy anything less efficient than 91 db or, more importantly, anything that dips below 4 Ohms impedance. Because it starts to limit the options for a suitable amplifier.
Unless you just joined a few days ago, you need to understand that MC has been shilling Synergistic Research, Raven, Townshend and Tekton for months if not over a year. These shills go far beyond the casual acknowledgements of a satisfied customer.
The OP felt his Tektons may have to go because they don't work well with his favored amp. MC offered a possibly solution with his experience with his ... TEKTONs. This is what the OP asked. Funny, Jesus was overly persecuted too! 😄👍
What is with that mc guy and the Tekton love affair?........Simple,he is a shill for the company.Continually trying to keep the conversation going to promote sales...the question that should be asked is why the site allows it?
Someone mentioned Leo Kottke. I had the pleasure of seeing him play at the Paramount Theatre in Austin probably 20 years ago and he is simply incredible. If you close our eyes you would swear there are 4 people playing guitar on stage. Laura Brannigan opened for him. She was superb as well. So sorry she is no longer with us.
is Diana Krall really 10’ tall ? Now that we know Leo Kottke is 5’ wide, it’s all starting to make sense…
Big baffle is an excellent mechanical averaging machine, just like a horn is an excellent multiplier…… think that thru.
The burr under saddle is the BHK amp woke up the OP speakers…
Note - I have heard the subject Line Magnetic amp in my room on 87 db speakers. It did fantastic…because the full range speakers are DESIGNED w bespoke drivers….and a filter network designed to be an easy load…..
What is with that mc guy and the Tekton love affair? Few speakers really reach that magic full range level Tekton…. Well their not on that list. Mine are…opps can I say that Lol
In my case, I was deciding between B&W 705 and 704 (KEF R3 is also in the mix). BestBuy has them side by side, so I can compare. I didn't notice any advantage from 705, however, the base quality from the 704 is quite obvious to me. Driven by Hegel H120 with the right source, the 704 sound stage can be huge. I doubt I will ever want a even bigger stage. From the physics side, bookshelf share one driver for mid and base. Floor stander have a dedicated mid range. I would guess a dedicated one will do the job easier and better than the double duty one.
You may be able to use small amps on the main speakers with a sub woofer but only if the sub is powered and if it has a high pass filter to take energy out of the bottom of the main speakers.
But I always recall my friend George Bischoff(Melos electronics that were hundreds of tube triode watts) who believed that a good big one beats a good little one every time.
First...I realize that some may see posts from MC as offensive I, however, do not. He has a wealth of experience and usually contributes in a constructive manner. His preferences are his own. From my previous post I mentioned the use of stand mounts with a sub(s) and added that bass management is also important. Stand mount speakers come with many features and in many price ranges. Some can rival the performance of some towers. The "deep" bass would probably elude most. That's where bass management comes in when using stand mounts with subs. A stand mount speaker is capable of delivering sound in a range of frequencies. The lower frequency (bass) of those speakers have a certain limit. Below that frequency is where the sub(s) come in. Relieving the frequencies below the capability of the mains makes the mains (stand mounts) better at delivering their best performance. Bass management can be achieved different ways...whether built into the amp, HT amps, DSP, active crossovers, and others. The best performance of stand mounts and subs must take this into account.
Yes, I have been temporarily forced to either listen full time to headphones or purchase a near field speaker setup because I could no longer access my big stereo system due to construction. I tried listening to headphones only for a while but missed speakers so badly I decided to put together a small stereo system.
My primary goal was low distortion and secondary was a good balance of remaining characteristics. I went into this thinking It would be very affordable because everything will be much smaller, but I quickly discovered that this was no easy feat without nearly as much amplifier power as my big system to drive small speakers that cost way more than I had imagined. I found that I really liked the sound of Wilson Audio Tune Tots but after listening for a week at home the missing low end felt like the loss of a family member. What I finally ended up with wasn't the affordable system I thought it would be, but fortunately also wasn't the most expensive. I bought two Wilson Audio Watch Dog subwoofers and I am driving them with a Dan D'agostino Classic amplifier and the Tune Tots are being driven by Dan D'agostino M400 amps. The lesson I learned was the smaller the stereo system, the harder to achieve great sound without increasingly bigger dollars. Almost inversely proportional it seems like to me.
My best advice is to buy at least two subwoofers that are designed for music and not for movie LFE to go with your main speakers. Best of luck to you and try to enjoy the journey.
I went from floorstanders to high performance monitors and sub years ago, my room was the deciding factor. Recently I went the other way, large speakers , with and without sub. I'm glad I did , I now have a room that is well damped , so well that my Velodyne SMS 1 barely applies EQ in auto mode. No more standing waves. Compact systems can sound great but lack the weight and body of good floor standers. I had a serious room mode at 40 Hz in my old house that made any large speaker sound boomy, which is why I went the sat/sub route.
When you think about it, many speaker stands take up the same real estate as many floor standing speakers.....so if the room allows I'll take floor standers any day
blkwrxwgn - you must be new to ago, MC does this sort of thing many times a day. He comes to the rescue of any post regarding his speaker brand (I'm not going to mention it because it will wake him) to state how arrogant or ill informed the poster is by not having an away welcome toward his speaker. Many of us have ignored him for quite some time.
As for stand mount or towers, it depends on the room. What is a tower but some woofers/mids/tweeter in 1 box, so if you break up the combo into 2 separate boxes, IMO you would have more flexibility in placing your speakers. Placing the woofers in certain areas for the best sound might not be the best location for the midrange/tweeter, or vice-versa.
I've had setups of both kinds in different rooms. ROOMS..that's the key. A lot to read and learn about room treatments. But that's for another post. There's no way to determine whether tower or stand mounts will sound best, worse, or the same in your room. But, I have learned that subs are necessary with stand mounts. The more..the better. Two subs may sound perfectly adequate for your room but, in most cases, four are better because room modes are more easily dealt with. I'm not familiar with your amp but, to incorporate the subs, some type of bass management is key.
I think it really boils down to room size and what it will accommodate. I have a 13’ by 17’ room with sloped ceilings and a bit of an irregular shaped rear wall and full size speakers just flat out over power the room. I sort of did the exact opposite of tanglewood and recently purchased Dynaudio C1’s and the bass is the best I’ve had in the room yet though I’m having issues with what seems to be a closed in high end with those speakers but that’s a different story. I also have two subs but frankly in my room with the C1’s I don’t need them. As far as staging the C1’s are excellent but I’ve had large speakers that are nearly as good if not as good.
I went the opposite direction. I've had dynaudio C1's for years. I recenlty bought dyn conf 30's, which are a floor stander. The 30's beat the C1's in every way, including sound stage. I also regularly listen to the 30's at very low volumes, and they sound fantastic in that setting too.
Millercarbon “One notably absent from the list is patience with obnoxious arrogant types, especially ones not contributing anything but insults to the conversation.“
Take a well deserved break man! It’s boarder line psychotic after a while. Report thisNow ya get it,lol...its easier to just flag his post and maybe at some point the site will remove him for bad behavior
Yes a excellent pair of subs the SVS 3000 micro for $1500 which has dual apposing 8 inch drivers , and high current mosfet 800 watt amp. a no brainer with a great extensive control app you can use with any phone or tablet Highly recommended, if you want even more the Svs SB 3000.good stand mount speakers disappear better as well as image better-then big floor-standers , and these subs are very fast and tuneful.
While I have heard small monitors in confined spaces sound good. My experience is that the best sound is achieved by good quality towers. The tower speakers have been designed for coherence top to bottom. Ample amplification makes for fully fleshed out sound. Additional subwoofers can extend the sound stage and fill in the lowest registers.
You won’t find me making up for my lack of whatever it is that you have issues with, I don’t need to talk about the speakers every damn day.
I’m sorry man but you are ridiculous.
I used to stand up for the owners but just a few weeks of this crap and I’m at my last nerves already. You guys think it’s bad here, go to the Facebook page for Tekton.
I asked a question once and people would give answers that had NOTHING to do with what I asked but they would talk about how their speaker was so good, even when it had again nothing to do with the questions I asked. It’s a weird cult.
I agree 100% with blkwrxwgn. These shameless shills do nothing but overshadow anything of merit which you have ever said. You using the words arrogant and obnoxious concerning another member is a laugh. Enough already!
millercarbon, I didn’t know you had Tekton speakers!!!!
Okay, now I can see how this gets really old. Such a weird phenomena to make sure everyone knows what kind of speakers you have and to only talk about those speakers, over and over and over…….
Take a well deserved break man! It’s boarder line psychotic after a while.
And I also have integers, and tubes, and a Pods and mass, and well frankly there is a rather long list of things that I have. One notably absent from the list is patience with obnoxious arrogant types, especially ones not contributing anything but insults to the conversation. And I know what you’re thinking but don’t bother, there is another list you don’t know about and you just made it in near record time.
There are significant advantages to reducing cabinet size with almost all speaker designs. Narrow baffles, etc. Cabinets can do nothing but detract from your experience and the design of the cabinet itself is just an exercise in minimizing problems. Having separate subs, especially with bass arrays, gives you incredible flexibility that you will never have with larger speaker systems.
So you may get a larger sense of scale from large speakers, but you will lose a great deal of other equally important things from large "mirror image" designs like the PAP. It is very difficult to design an accurate, neutral large speaker using dynamic drivers in particular.
I'm with Doug and James on this unless you are in a very small room. as in 12 x 10 or less.
I just bought a new sub this week from REL. I plan to add more subs as $ allow. They will go with my bigger speakers.
Small speakers-say under 8", just sound small. You can not achieve the same amount of air movement. Physics. You will get a tighter, faster sound with the smaller sizes so it is all a trade-off.
Multi subs add a dimension to the soundstage you will not achieve without them.
I use a full size narrow baffle speaker cabinet, but it's NOT a full range speaker. I could never get the mechanical timing correct, so I split the cabinets.
100hz and below OB servo plates with 12" HE drivers. 100-300hz Mid Bass Columns with correction and direct driver coupling. 300hz and UP NB Small Planar/Ribbon columns, valve driven.
To tell the truth, one of the BEST systems I've ever heard was a stand mount speaker AND Servo subs.. The ROOM was still 50% of that great combo though.. 16 x 20 x 9. It had a built in gear rack (LOW) into the front wall. It was tube driven monitors and GRs OB servos.
TRY to find a pair.. They are like gold when they are set up right.. First time I ever saw and understood the reason for bearding a stand mount speaker.. GR OB servos and super fast planar/ribbons..
For me it was bass and space. With a separate sub, I have much better control over the bass and integration with the room than I would have with a full range.
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