ah Community Light and Sound, now those were good…..
Has anyone heard the newest version of the Klispschhorm?
I watched a YouTube of Robyn of Robyatt Audio.
A long standing Quad 57 man, he has taken the ESS rebuild to the max now with a new, fairly extreme wooden frame.
Very interesting that in this video he abandons his push of the Quads and now raves about the new Klipschhorns. Even saying that they are the best speaker regardless of price!
The new KHs are now in much improved enclosures with sealed backs making them now best away from corners into the room. But what about the sharp, honking sound of the horns? But for a diehard Quad guy to now say that the new KHs are better than the $100K+…? I was also a diehard Quad guy until I decided that I wanted bass and treble, and most of all, dynamics! There is no question that the KHs are that. I never owned KHs but did once have Heresys. I will never forget that blaring tweeter!
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Horn I refer to is a massive community bi radial type. Community at one time made some of the most advanced horn profiles available a few of those still don't have modern equivalents. I use it with my massive J horn and Faital pros best 1" comp tweeter in matching tweeter horns so I have radiation pattern control. I use a simple 1st order and I have them physically time aligned as well as is possible. I have a horn forum on FB check it out if you like https://www.facebook.com/groups/614272918584739 |
@johnk -- "The Jubilee uses DSP since the Celestion Axi2050 doesn't have much upper range unless EQed and processed. I use the same driver as Jubilee in a better non-CD horn design and with a proper tweeter set up so I need no DSP and can just let the Axi2050 roll-off gently mating it to a proper tweeter. The sound quality once done is one of the best in compression drivers." What's your general issue with Constant Directivity horns - the frequent use of diffraction slots here, abrupt mouth termination (straight-sided horns), falling HF response, other? And what (older?) profile are you referring to as "a better non-CD horn design"? Certainly a CD horn/driver combo can be in need of some EQ to ameliorate falling HF response, which would be less ideally achieved with a passive cross-over due to the likelihood of filter complexity. Active XO's/DSP's are the better choice here, but such a configuration is not your cup of tea, I know. Above a certain HF frequency the horn becomes more irrelevant, and here the driver itself will be a co-determining factor with regard to upper extension and the roll-off rate here. In that regard the axi2050 doesn't help. In my own actively configured CD horn/driver combo I use no shelf filter to attenuate HF response, but rather a few filter notches, a peak suppression, and a mild wide-Q PEQ gain at close to 20kHz. Filter notches and peak suppression were eventually derived from my own measurements and, at an early juncture, more crudely from the manufacturer's supplied measurements of the same horn/driver combo I use, to which there was a rather close correspondence with my own measurements. Determining the exact frequencies for these mild filter corrections was essential for them to have the most sufficient effect; indeed, what quickly stood out from that outset was that "less is more," and that achieving the most smooth and natural sound with these corrections was the primary concern. "Flat" HF response, more easily achieved with non-CD horns, sounds unnaturally tipped-up to my ears, and moreover the increasing directivity here can lead to HF-beaming and more prevalent issues with finding the correct placement. What may more readily persist with CD horns is diffraction issues, but theoretically at least those emanating from the diffraction slot area of my own CD horns (what some perceive as the "frying bacon" phenomenon) are not a concern until well beyond 120dB's - if they are at all. It comes down to actual listening, and I've never been able to provoke any issues with my speaker setup here, although I've never reached +120dB's - certainly never felt inclined to. Question is whether diffraction issues would present themselves sonically at much lower volumes, and how that would imprint as a "signature" of the sound. Comparing with quite a few other horns and waveguides I've heard - i.e.: a variety of non-CD horns, OSWG's and other - I can only surmise that it's a non-issue at any SPL's I've cared to try out. If anything the sheer size of a large horn like my EV's is an advantage. Begging the question: when is a problem a problem, and how does it apply to a given context. I guess it all depends. |
The Jubilee uses DSP since the Celestion Axi2050 doesn't have much upper range unless EQed and processed. I use the same driver as Jubilee in a better non-CD horn design and with a proper tweeter set up so I need no DSP and can just let the Axi2050 roll-off gently mating it to a proper tweeter. The sound quality once done is one of the best in compression drivers. |
Superchargers and turbos do accomplish the same without increase in displacement, but then the old saw as to no replacement for displacement could still hold as one could add supercharger or turbo and the greater displacement together. But speaking of power, I have 8wpc and 18wpc amps, seems I'm into under powered scooters! |
@cleeds +1 |
I was commenting more about the issue you raised regarding
Which IME isn't a thing. If its a properly designed horn, it will be musical as long as the source is musical. Horns have controlled directivity, which allows you to minimize early reflections from side walls (which the ear interprets as harshness). So if set up right they are often smoother than regular midrange and tweeter drivers.
To the former: they are! To the latter: I don't think so; I heard a set of Klipsch speakers at AXPONA which featured a very large midrange horn and they were quite good. Big, dynamic, open, detailed and smooth- easy to like 😀
@bouncehit since you asked, I'm using our class D amps on my Classic Audio Loudspeakers and they work quite nicely together! |
@waytoomuchstuff No more 'boosting' for me at the moment. Only mod I'd consider at this point would be the BMS mid driver, the greatest issue with the stock mid drivers is the relatively small throat size , the BMS 2" throat size is amenable to more natural timbre. I suspect the BMS would be still be an upgrade to my John Allen K55's. The honking some hear with Klipsch are due to this small throat size and some pretty bad mid horn materials and design. Tractrix horns using wood are huge upgrade over exponential metal horns. Many use damping materials with the metal horns, really doesn't get one to natural tonality/timbre, I know from experience on this one. Again, the new Heritage have improved in this area.
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@atmasphere Huh?? I'm used to horns being relaxed and detailed like good ESLs! They can work quite nicely with good class D amps too 😉 I was amazed how well HYPEX Class D mono blocks |
@mglik -- "... I guess the Khorns now have a different and better tweeter." The newest AK6 version I heard a few months back sported a somewhat problematic upper end, as I wrote earlier. A quality tube amp pairing might be preferable, as some here have suggested, but still I wouldn’t expect it to completely ameliorate named shortcomings. Can’t speak for Ralph and the Classic Audio Loudspeakers, but I would expect them to better the Khorns from the central midrange on up. They extend deeper as well, but are direct radiating here nonetheless. Not to say they don’t deliver excellent bass, I’m sure they do, but horn-loaded bass (and up to lower mids) just sounds different. |
@johnk -- Great looking horn setup there. 4-way with bass horns in the background? |
I own both AG Duo Omega G2's and 75th Anniversary K-horns. They are both terrific. I prefer the K-horns matched with tube amplification (right now I am using a Willsenton R800i with NOS tubes) and the AG's with a vFET preamplifier and Aleph 60 clones. For life-like reproduction of music's scale and dynamics, they are VERY, VERY hard to beat! :) |
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The KH has a distinct presentation. On some music it’s so very very close to a live sound, it’s almost better than being there. At other times it might just be too much of a good thing. But there is no denying these speakers have stood the test of time. EDIT: The big Aventguard speakers might be a little more laid back and pleasing to more people... |
Phusis certainly understands the compelling aspect of KH that made them indispensable for me. With the KH, even in stock form, I heard an uncanny sense of live performers in room I had never heard prior. For me, the magic starts with the incredible way these horns reproduce micro dynamics, I feel the breath and/or rhythm and touch on their instruments, music becomes performance.
Allied to tubes, or valves as I like to think of them since it reminds me of the human lung which is in fact a valve, this sense of live performers in room becomes that much more believable.
The usually stated weakness of the Khorns is horn colorations, my mods were designed to address these weaknesses. IMO, valves are an absolute necessity for alleviating timbral issues with KH, again, the latest Heritage models have been reportedly improved in this area. |
I’ve heard the Khorn AK6’s. Overall I find they’re sonically rewarding and engaging speakers that only all-horns can really sound like. They’re quite a few horn hybrid speakers out there with midrange and tweeter horns/waveguides in conjunction with direct radiating woofer/mids, but it’s rare to see the important "power region" (~lower midrange and down) horn-loaded as well, and this in particular is the distinctive sonic feature of the Khorns. The bass is wonderfully layered, smooth, enveloping and effortless - quite unlike direct radiating bass, really, in a positive sense - and has great impact, scale and dynamics, especially when placed in corners. There’s some "character" in the upper bass/lower mids sections (the upper range of the bass horn), but it mostly amounts to a bit of added warmth. The central to upper mids is open, direct/present, very clean and informative. No honking in its true meaning, but ever so slightly "beamy" or intense that may have to do with the midrange horn being no larger than it is. The lower highs on up, in the setup I heard them, is where I find the Khorn AK6’s to be the least capable in that this region is a bit too tipped up and coarse sounding as well. I heard them via quality solid state amps and a digital source - perhaps a tube amp pairing might have provided for a more "forgiving" imprinting in the upper octaves, but I suspect it wouldn’t be enough to completely ameliorate named tendency here. Every speaker, regardless of price, has its shortcomings. What is "coloration"? Audiophilia seems to have monopolized in a sense the distinction of coloration, glaringly overlooking the importance of vital aspects such as dynamics, presence, ease and scale that, if negated, would seem to them a relief almost as something that more readily accommodates a "cultivation" in sound that has come to encapsulate "hi-fi" as it is typically known, as has for some time now. That is to say: a duller, less lively sound that’s not least bred from a desire to kill resonances at large from a physical package severely compromised in size. The Khorns are more or less the antithesis to this type of sound, and it makes them all the more acoustically interesting and compelling in presentation, to my ears; more emotionally real and (a)live. To reiterate: a fundamental quality of the Khorns has to do with the horn-loading of the lower midrange and down, which also - in some areas, at least - makes them a more coherent and of-the-same-cloth sounding speaker. Indeed, to more accurately get a bearing on horn qua all-horn sound, the Khorns are definitely a viable way to experience it. |
