Now let's talk about the so-called 'data driven' mindset. If you read the forums, it becomes apparent fairly quickly that 'measurements' is the new game in town. In fact, it's the only game in town. Listening is optional! It's no surprise that the low-end of the Chinese audio industry has latched on to this as an opportunity to gain market share. We've moved from an artisan approach to one that's focused on numbers alone. People used to buy based on the designer's reputation (Nelson Pass, Bob Carver, etc.), now they base their decisions on charts and graphs. Again, listening is not required.
Unfortunately, the US and European audiophile industry will follow the same path as the manufacturing and electronics industries in the last 20+ years, i.e. fade into oblivion. They are burdened with comparatively high labor and R&D costs, IP regulations, and a capital market that rewards short-term profits. The Chinese manufacturers don't need to worry about any of the above.
Thanks for you wise observations indeed.... My best to you.... |
Another question should be Are there very good Chinese high end audio products out there that do their own research to make a quality product and not infringe upon international patents? |
cayin 80 class A hybrid amp,preamp very nice sound for under $2800 beats most at over $4k |
dweller, "glupson - You failed to mention that I capitalized the word "Hate" in the last sentence.
Pretty sloppy..." I might have overestimated your style. I thought that capitalized "Hate" is a stylistic figure of giving it presence, demonizing it in some way, rather than another example of your poor writing skills. Please forgive my sloppiness. At least until you learn how to get your writing skills close to a non-native speaker/writer level. |
I love how whenever this topic comes up, 99% of the comments have nothing at all to do with the topic. So let's talk about clone sound. I picked up a super cheap Naim NAP 200 copy from AliExpress. These are all over the place. They don't copy the case, but claim to be a copy of the circuit. I've never heard the legit NAP 200. The sound was actually very nice...as long as it doesn't get complex / busy, then it falls apart (sonically).
I also got a no-name CD transport from Queenway store (AliExpress seller, has many clones) which claims to copy a Wadia circuit and has a spring-mounted CD tray. It does sound better than my other Chinese CD player used as a transport. They don't have that version anymore and seem to sell an updated version with a better clock. Mine also has an issue of overheating / glitching where it'll stop playing and error itself out after a long period of playing. I managed to break a cable harness trying to remove the cover, and the seller actually sent me a replacement harness for just $1. But the case was cut with basically 0 tolerance so now I can't get it back on, I'd have to file some of it down I think. This is what you end up paying for I guess.
There's an Accusphase clone I'm interested in as well as FM amp which they claim to have copied 1:1 including the proprietary modules. They also have matching preamp clones too. There's many Pass clones too.
I recently purchased several cable clones. Today I received a copy of the Nordost Odin 2 Supreme Reference RCA interconnects. The cable conductors look just like the real article (and are constructed just like them if you believe the images they have up on AliExpress). These also have the original Nordost-looking plugs "Holo-Plug", but I thought mine were kind of dirty / dull and I doubt a legit Nordost would be like that. Initial listen I didn't notice any major difference over my Audio Envy interconnects, but then they need to burn in so that's what they're doing now.
Also coming is a copy -- maybe a gray market legit product -- Audioquest FireBird biwire and WEL Signature interconnects. They look exactly the same as the legit items, including the DBA modules. The reason why I said maybe a gray market product is because Audioquest cables are made in China and just assembled in the US. Since these things look exactly like the original based on images they could be off the books factory runs assembled and sold out the back door. Of course the proof will be in the hearing, if I just end up with a set of expensive audio jewelry than oh well I deserve it :)
The only other cable I got from them was a Transparent Audio Wave Ultra MM2 power cable which is also burning in. It's a heavy and stiff cable, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that the center network box has nothing but epoxy in it.
Interesting I note that there's also SIltech cables which really do look like the originals and that Siltech started using a identity verification tool using a smartphone app to scan tags to validate legitimate Siltech products. It would be "funny" if Siltech is actually selling the same cables that China sells grey market for a fraction of the price. |
mahgister, "The fact that thephilosophy of your time has no appeal to you does not means the same thing in your case than in the case of Goethe... " I beg to differ. It is about the same for Goethe and me. He might have been great at some things, but that does not make his disinterest in philosophy of his time much more noble or valuable than mine. Aside of that, I posses some skills that, for various reasons, he could not have dreamed of. "You cannot , not because you are not interested, but mainly because that does not make sense for you...." It just happens that I truly lack interest. I may be aware of a few more things than you would expect me to be. Sure, reading arguments from long-dead men trying to outsmart each other while not doing much is not my cup of tea. I find it boring. |
Understanding Geniuses or Goethe is not about arguing.... I dont doubt by the way you are talented... It was never a competition between Sidis and you....
But Why undermining my point about interesting Geniuses biographies?
And Goethe or Archimedes are not dead....Spirit dont die....
Goethe for example never used first and foremost, "arguments", he was a supremum artist, and a natural scientist, he created art or he observed nature never argue about it....He only argued against the Newton way to reduce colors and he "argued" only with experiments against him, establishing the physiology of colors perception for the first time in history which was praised by all, especially Edwin Land father of colors photography....It is only one of his accomplishment....
I will mute myself and going back to audio.... Sorry....
my best to you....
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I can't take the time to read all this but, there is good stuff made in China by very reputable companies; I own an Auralic Aries G.1 .
There are fakes and weird stuff. Painting with a broad brush is never fruitful
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There are people that buy Prima-Luna amps and pay good money for them, whats the difference ?? I have people send me amps to repair all the time from Chinese manufacturers, try to get a on-off switch or a knob or any help with diagrams.....I tried to repair a very popular Chinese amp not long ago and couldn't get a diagram or any help what so ever.....So I've decided to not repair any non-American amps.......So when you buy a Prima-Luna amp make friends with Kevin , he might fix it for you.........W
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I have bought many China electronics. I have learned to use Google chrome translation on the China Taobao site and other Chinese reviews. There are cheap knockoffs and there are VERY good ones. Unless you know the language or spend time on the Chinese language sites you may never know. For the most part the ones on Aliexpress are the better ones but the best ones are only on the Chinese language Taobao.
I have very high end original equipment and some of the best clones. The best clones sound incredible but are slightly different from the exact sound of the originals. Unfortunately there are some real turds as well as outstanding products as well. Most are modeled after discontinued products though which probably circumvents the issue with copyright. The Dart Zeel boards are 100% exact circuitboards and the component choice and device matching it what will seperate the original sond from the clone in absolute terms.
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I have some experience in this area--not much, but some.
First off, true knock offs--posing to be something they are not--are not too common. There are clear examples, like Mistral’s B&W knock offs.
In my view, most of the China HiFi market is made up of four types.
1) clear knock offs--not that common. I define this as something that says it’s a Mark Levinson amp--not a cloned circuit.
2). Clones/Kit Using Legendary Circuits.
3) Discrete New Products. I define these as Line Magnetic, Doge Audio, Cayin, Willenston, Denafrips, and so on. These are organically designed and made in China products with strong corporate back stories. Also, these products use high quality components and should not be judged without listening or "popping the hood". The quality in these products is near exceptional.
4) US/Canadian/European Companies. Many household name companies design their products in their home sovereign then build them in China, under contract with a factory. The list of these is massive.
As to the OP’s question, I have heard some clone amps. I heard a Mark Levinson clone and a couple Pass clones. A friend built a Marantz clone from a PCB sold by China-HIfi. All were pretty decent, but of varying quality. Some of them are really, really nice. I think ones that use a tried and true circuit from an older product--e.g., Citation, Marantz M7, etc.--are pretty decent. Those products trying to be a facsimile of a product (see clear knock offs), are less likely to impress if compared to the real thing.
I hope that makes sense!
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I’ve bought quite a few Chinese audio components over the last decade. Mostly mid-fi stuff that I upgraded myself.
My first foray was a Music Angel XD800 Mk3 tube amp. It cost ~$600. After upgrading it with about $200 worth of parts, it was an excellent performer. Not a $10,000 amp killer, but it definitely punched above the $800 amps.
I then modified a Shanling T-80 tubed CD player. $100 in parts turned it into a killer analog-sounding CDP. Friends couldn’t believe that a CDP could sound so analog.
My latest modification has been to a Singxer SU-1 DDC. I bought it for $450 and have spent $250 on upgrading it. It connects (via I2S) to a Gustard x20 Pro DAC (another Chinese component). This is a killer combo for playing DSD files.
I haven’t heard any of the other high end components mentioned already but I feel there are good deals to be found. Not all Chinese components are dogs (or blatant copies).
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Yes, but nobody survived to talk about it.
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Reading this thread reminds me of the racism, xenophobia and gingoism of other times in American history. It also may explain how China (and many of the Others) will continue eating our lunch until the shrinking generations of haters’ offspring from the 40’s and 50’s pass on. Be careful out there. Lots of good stuff comes from the other side of the globe. Buyer beware when ordering direct. It can cost a bundle to return a 60lb amp or two to anyplace overseas.
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Having being part of the audiophile world for over forty years,I've had my share of good amplifiers. And some pretty bad ones too. I'm one of those ho has given it a try a couple of times. My present main amplifier is a Music Angle 845 single ended amp that I modified with the help of Lampizator. http://lampizator.eu/amplifiers/china/SET%20triode%20amplifier%20Music%20Angel%20845%20Hong%20Kong.h...The amplifier arrived at my home from China and sounded muffled. After the modifications to the circuit with top quality parts, I can no longer part with it. It's the best amplifier that I've owned thru all the years. Just imagine if I'd have installed better Japanese transformers. Those modifications where made in 2008. Its still going strong and better than ever. One of my favorite s&s amp in the past was a NAP250 of the first generation by Naim Audio. It was sweet sounding with lots of tempo, but not the last word in micro details. The one thing that it made you do, was taping your feet with the music. It was never boring. I noticed a Chinese clone of the NAP250 in a two enclosure set up for sale at a real low price on the net for 159.95$ US plus low shipping charges. I said to myself, the worst I can loose is 211.00$ total. So I gave it a go. I figured I needed a backup amp just in case. The clone amp is build differently from the original and it uses different transistors as well. But the sound is very similar to the old original Naim. The build quality is very good. The amp is totally quiet. Mind you, I was driving the old NAP250 with a Naim NAC72 with High-Cap power supply at the time. This clone was driven with a tube pre-amp based on the Marantz 7 circuit that I made. I must add that I did purchase other Chinese tube amps in the past and all of them sounded muffled. If you do give the Chinese amps a try, I would go with their S&S models. Hope this helps. |
I’ve never heard of well known brands like Luxman or Accuphase knockoffs. Seems they would be easy to spot or the price would be the tipoff. The Chinese are making some excellent amps at very good prices. Their designs look old school and nostalgic. |
I've looked at many of these copies, Dartzeel, Mark Levinson, Accuphase..... Really a bunch more. Overall, I don't have a problem with it.... Each and every one that I looked at was advertised as a copy, no one was trying to get over or lie about what the product was. They normally had close up shots of the boards, Output transistor used, Transformer, Capacitors, bridge rectifiers etc. I thought they did a good job of trying to represent that they were trying to reproduce a classic.
If they were truly trying to sell fakes as an original, you bet, I'd be upset and would report them to any site selling them. The ones I saw all looked like good values. I guess that I had my own biases. I worried that even the parts shown in these amps were not original and just never pulled the trigger, But I do believe overall that most of these would be a good value and a decent product.....ESPECIALLY for the buck..... Tim |
So you think blatant copying is ok? Saying they are copying well respected expensive brands. Same s..t when I lived there. It all sucked. I think its BS .. |
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Glupson, “How many people here have bought a knock-off
amplifier from North Korea?”
Is not an argument.
OP requests comments on knock-off amps so calling them a bad
idea is in bounds.
Audiogon has built a system of trade in which
mutual respect and fairness are valued- even a hint of dishonesty would effectively
disqualify a seller. At which borders should that end? Under which conditions
should theft be rewarded?
I have been to just two well-known audio manufacturers’
“factories” and each was tiny. They became known for innovations in their
product lines but I doubt they had millions set aside for hard times and
nothing to combat piracy or IP theft. Just another attack on an industry that
is barely surviving. Grado, Gallo, Rogue,
VPI, Berkeley, and many others have created innovations which add to the hobby.
Theft gives nothing back. If you want to preserve the hobby, you might want to
support companies that contribute to it and not those that erode their viability.
I won’t mention counterfeit N95 masks because
that’s not part of this discussion.
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manorraul, My question about North Korea was a comment of sorts to a post that preceded it and which mentioned North Korea, nuclear bombs, and in some convoluted way connected that to China, all supposedly having something to do with amplifiers. There was even more in that post, but it is not worth reading again. "Grado, Gallo, Rogue, VPI, Berkeley..." Are these common, if at all, targets of Chinese counterfeiters? As a food for thought, and I do not know the answer, how much is Mark Levinson (from the OP) losing on counterfeit products that cost much much less? Are these counterfeiters really stealing customers? Does anyone intending to buy Mark Levinson actually pick the fake one? Could it be that people who buy fakes would have never bought the real thing anyway? I am not defending piracy of any kind, just wondering how much real impact it is in audio world? Are there any lost sales? Is it brand erosion? Or is it brand strengthening? |
The "barely surviving" industry have themselves to thank for it. They chose to charge absurd, wild markups and content themselves with super high profit margin but low production. Those that have been trying to serve the lower end market decided to do so by pushing their class D junk. |
@hiendmmoe
I bout one expensive, very heavy “Accuphase inspired” China class A amp, which has different China Brand name on it. I inspected components inside, tested it for distortions, output impedance etc, and I didn’t find anything wrong with the amp. Amp has two 700VA toroidal transformers, feeding two separated power supplies for left and right channels. Amp is using Japan made electrolytic, well matched US made power transistors (40 total), and CNC machined enclosure. Amp is NOT Accuphase replica or copy, it has only Accuphase feel. Overall outside look and details are less refined comparing to Accuphase. Internal boards built of expensive “black” material, wiring and layout is very good. Amp has no noise, acoustically and from the speakers, and it is not possible to tell if it is on or off without looking at power LED.
Comparing to original Accuphase class A amp, it sounds little bit more beefy, but little bit less transparent at high freq. end. It beats many US/EU amplifiers, even significantly expensive ones.
To summarize: there are good, very good and bad things come out of China, it is a lottery! |
The OP asked about knock-off products, not products made in China! Apples and Oranges!
Knock-offs can be products that have a confusingly similar overall appearance to the copied products but knock-offs do not contain any identical logos or federally registered brand names. Fashion knock-offs are legal in the U.S. but a counterfeit is not.
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hiendmmoe I must respond: Yes, China is beginning to sends rovers to extraterrestrial bodies. There are no parts available to US (or British, etc) designers that the Chinese cannot get, especially since they manufacture for many American companies. You would have to be racist to think they cannot do this. Admittedly, at one time I fell in this category by thinking Japanese cars and racers would ever compare to AMURRIKUN, but we live and learn. We should not wonder if the Chinese can, bur why they do what they do. When a Chinese product is truly good, the company will proudly market it. If it is a POS, it will have someones else's brand on it.
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cid194532 posts02-05-2021 4:46pmI’ve
never heard of well known brands like Luxman or Accuphase knockoffs.
Seems they would be easy to spot or the price would be the tipoff. The
Chinese are making some excellent amps at very good prices. Their
designs look old school and nostalgic. The price is always the 'tip-off', but only when new. After the piece reaches the secondary market, all bets are off. This is when unscrupulous resellers crank up the selling price to that level at which an unknowing buyer can't believe his 'good fortune'. |
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personally i would love to hear it, and with their pre amp, if they build one |
I have a pair of Meixing Ming Da MC 3000A mono blocks with a Audio Experience A2-SE preamp and they sound outstanding. |
glupson, "I am not defending piracy of any kind,"
That's my position.
madavid0 "
They chose to charge absurd, wild markups and content themselves with super high profit"
There must be several threads where OOB/consolidated manufacturers are listed. With "super high profits" they would not have closed. Not one person in my family has a stereo. In school everyone had a system, today only one friend does and that because I practically gave it to him. Sales volumes are down and large sales may be the only way to stay in business. I don't think it's working.
Raul
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Glupson - " While you are at stealing inventions, be ashamed of using some of the China’s."....... Actually, most adults realize that many nations have been "appropriating" technology from others since Adam. I sense that the real issue for the aversion to Chinese products has to do with their government’s current slave labor camps in its western provinces and the overnight "liquidation" of pro-democracy forces in Hong Kong these past months. And I’m ignoring the 10’s of millions who were silenced during the Cultural Revolution within our lifetimes. Call me a sentimentalist......Hard to "wrap" my head around your repeated attempts to draw moral equivalence.
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Somebody broke into my house and replaced everything with exact replicas (Steven Wright joke). |
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Very good post glupson....
i concur with this post ....
My best to all.... |
I wonder if shoe forums have this much acrimony over who did what first. |
Probably, if they're on the internet.
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Do NOT get me started on sequined pumps...! |
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This forum is an eternal spring of knowledge. I just learned what sequined pumps are. |
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Ugh!
Christian Louboutin is soooo last year... |
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I wonder how the Chinese knock offs compare..... |
I guess there's a place to discuss anything and everything. |
Mahgister:
Although I am amazed with the in-depth knowledge of some of Audiogoners in
engineering, physics and acoustics, reading what you have done for SQ as well
as your possession of vast knowledge about history, math and science reminds me
of one of the unique aspects of human mentality. We at this point of time, living in USA/Canada
as a middle class citizen, is already enjoying our life standard better than 80%
of the rest of people in other parts of the world. In further reflecting human history,
aren’t we now enjoying the benefit from so many great inventors who passed
along to us,e.g. from light bulb, to electricity to cell phone to internet etc
that will make any past emperor envy. If you, Mahgister, can produce SQ from
$300 equal to that of $10,000, may be you have an idea how to further improve
humanism, so each human being can pursue and enjoy his/her life in a self-satisfying
way, instead of jealous, control, and destruction of others like what had
happen so often in the history of mankind. Moses189
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@mofojo
No, I don't think blatant copying is Okay, but that isn't what is going on. Look at the Dartzeel above. Yes, it looks alot like a Dart, but with or without volume control. no balanced, different boards (Chinese design). Components inside are different, However, I bet it does sound quite good. The others are the same. The case on the Mark Levinson copies is a tiny thing, could never be mistaken for the original.
According to your post right above this one, Not sure we should be worried about a $300 copy of a $10,000 amplifier. |
Can someone please post links to these Chinese knockoffs. I have owned Xindak DAC 8 and their CD player. Both were okay, not great but okay for the price. I have also tried some Xindak cables. Same response. Japan started out making cheap, plastic goods and look at them now. |
The best amp I ever owned was Chinese, from a company that makes ML's stuff. |
