Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB?  I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be

Nothing but speculation and assumptions. Follow your plan to listen to all 3 of them. They’re all quite worthy. for all you know you may find the Aurender N20 your favorite.

Charles

 A lot of this is apples to oranges comparisons, best ports on streamers and dacs make direct comparisons impossible. One should purchase dac and streamer as a package, decide in advance which scheme they're going with, AES/EBU, USB or I2S, both dac and streamer should be optimized for that scheme. I'll reiterate usb most difficult/expensive to optimize, has more inherent disadvantages, usb can have extremely high sound quality, gets bad name from less than optimal implementation in both streamers and dacs.

In question above as to how N20 would compare to Zenith and Phoenix. I'd keep Zenith + Phoenix vs N20, K50 and MU1 IF STAYING WITH USB. Now, if changing rendering schemes anything goes. USB is capable of wonderful rendering, Phoenix is one example of that. Now, is that Phoenix going into dac with optimized usb board, that being XMOS or Amanero, perhaps some proprietary board. If that is the case one isn't going to do much better using another rendering scheme. Assuming the Phoenix going into dac with great usb implementation, there still may be gains to be had with a better streamer serving only server duty. In other words Zenith II may be bettered with newer Zenith or some other streamer.

Point I'm trying to make above. Streaming sound quality can also be improved through better streamer acting ONLY as SERVER.  Lets say one already has optimized usb rendering via Phoenix or another dedicated usb streamer only, assume optimized usb implementation in dac. One can still achieve better sound quality with higher quality streamer, and NOT USING IT'S RENDERING CAPABILITY.  Improved noise suppression, music player processing  ALONE can make substantial improvements in sound quality. I know this from my own experiments with multiple rendering schemes VIA USB.

I have no experience with I2S and coax rendering so above may or may not apply. At one point  thought I'd experiment with I2S via DDC, in the end made no sense considering extra complexity, limitations of DDC equipment itself and less than optimal I2S implementation in  dac.

In thinking this out more. If I had top flight usb rendering via Phoenix or others, nice usb on dac and looking at three streamers mentioned here I'd go with K50, which was my plan. With k50, assuming top flight usb in streamer/dac you have the dedicated ethernet port out direct to Phoenix or other usb streamer. I believe this direct out ethernet port in K50 has some optimization, meaning filtering/clocking? So k50 ethernet port out to Phoenix to dac, shazam, top flight usb! And then you still have the optimized AES/EBU port on k50 to play with, this may play out to be better than optimized usb, two for one optimized setujps!

@sns , nice thought but the Phoenix doesn’t have an Ethernet input unfortunately! Just a USB input. Also, I’m trying to consolidate to one box and one set of cables for my player/server, as good as the PhoenixUSB is. Plus I plan to sell the PhoenixUSB to help fund this purchase!

That said I’m still interested in the K50!

Update:  oh you mean ADD the new box as a server only which means I’d have THREE boxes!  I’m trying to consolidate, so no, not going to work for me.

@lalitk +1M

@nyev At this level, price has very little to do with anything. Example, the N20 is 95% as good in SQ as the N30, for half the price. The N30, Taiko and K50 are all favoured interchangeably.

@sns and myself both swear by the Musetec 005 DAC which is a $3200 DAC but will challenge anything you put up against it. We're not cheap, we have confidence in our hearing, regardless of price tags.

Be happy that the N20 is the least expensive option, move on if if you don't like it but you probably won't.

Good Luck anyways.

I made an offer on the Aurender N20, but the seller did not want to use escrow (which I understand) OR PayPal Goods and Services. PayPal for Friends was his only PayPal option, I guess he wants to get the cash prior to shipping. Seller has a fair number of positive reviews over the past two years, with comments, but in theory that would be possible to have fake reviews.

I don’t know about everyone else, but that seems like a lot of money to send to a stranger with no protection beyond a few positive reviews - at least beyond the amount that I could stomach if I were to be scammed. The seller is someone you can find online without is an owner of a business serving the public, but who’s to say they are that person. I suppose I could ask them for a photo of their ID which would help somewhat but still….

The MU1 seller has similar restrictions.

Am I being overly cautious? How frequently do people get scammed dealing with sellers that have more than a few positive reviews in the past two years?

The K50 is through a reputable dealer so that remains an option. I wouldn’t need those protections with a dealer…. With the K50 my only real concern is how good my Gryphon Diablo DAC module’s AES input is, in comparison with its USB input which is very good. But if it doesn’t work out, I can always sell and lose little or no money since it’s used.

Only pay with your credit card and swallow the Paypal fees or ask him to pay half.

IDs mean Jack.

@lordmelton I could pay with my CC but the N20 seller said they would only use PayPal Friends and Family, so there are no fees for me to suck up and pay for added protection (and no added protection for me beyond my CC).  The MU1 seller  accepts bank wire only so I think too risky…

Maybe I’m headed for the K50.

@nyev 

I believe you can still use CC via F&F. When you go through the payment options via F&F, the steps prompt you if you want protection (CC) or skip protection (bank transfer). Not sure why you’re buying used…is there no dealer in your area that will allow in-home audition?  

In any case, start with K-50 if that’s more convenient. Does K-50 comes with return privileges? 

I’ve owned the Gryphon Diablo300 with the built in Dac. Spending $2-$4k on a used dac will give you much better results with any streamer you end up getting. The Musetec, Holo May, Denafrips Terminator2 or +, $3k Audio mirror will outperform that Gryphon Dac. 

@lalitk I’m buying used as I plan to resell and experience multiple products living with each for a few months.  The K50 for example is known the change significantly over many months of run time, mainly due to its power supply I’ve heard (3 or more months).  Often I find with demos, the dealer sends me a brand new unit that I simply pay for and keep if I like it.  I’d rather take my time and not be rushed.  It’s always stressful (for me at least) not knowing if a piece will work out, your home demo time running out, and having to call the dealer to send it back.  Often a few weeks is not enough to discover the one tweak that makes the piece click with your system.  I find adding a new piece can expose other issues in your system that you have to work out.  The biggest instance of that is when I added Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables.  OMG did that send me on a journey due to exposed issues, which is ongoing but I feel is very near resolved.

Does paying by CC really add protection?  How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?

Refusing to accept escrow and insisting on PP Friends and Family are both huge red flags. I'd walk away from this guy in a heartbeat.

@phastm3, I’ve heard some who agree with you for sure on the Gryphon DAC. Others say it stands up to equivalent and higher priced standalone DACs and is well served by seamless integration with the amp.

I’m guessing you may be right however based on the DAC’s you mentioned. That said, I’m a cable guy and I’d need to invest a lot in the interconnect and power cable for the standalone DAC, plus I’m wanting to consolidate my box’s and more importantly my cables.

“Does paying by CC really add protection? How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?”

@nyev

Yes, all major credit cards offers purchase protection. Much better than PayPal. Your delivery confirmation or lack of + any correspondence with seller is a proof for your CC company. BTW, my last few sales of $10K plus were all wire transfers. Ask this seller if he will accept wire transfer.

@lalitk , I actually made use of CC protection when a car dealer ripped me off once.  They were able to apply a “chargeback” as I had the evidence.  

In the case of PayPal, the seller doesn’t charge my credit card, rather, PayPal does.  So for PayPal Friends and Family, CC companies apply the chargeback to PayPal in cases of non-delivery?  I want to be comfortable with buying the N20 using my CC through PayPal F&F, but don’t want a sense of false security.

Sorry for taking this thread temporarily off the rails!

Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here (over 20 years), so that adds a lot of comfort!  I’ve read his posts before.  He mentions the N20 and his email address in old posts (I guess before they had filters for email addresses :)

Thinking I will proceed with the N20.

“Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here”
@nyev 

Even better!

@dabel

Thanks for updating me on Steve. Hope he is doing well and will pursue his plans; I'd bet it'll really benefit the industry if he does.

Just an update, I went through with the purchase of the Aurender N20 (mint, two months old as the seller upgraded to the N30, which his system definitely deserves…).

Even if it sounds equally good as my Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB that will be a win, as my objective was to reduce boxes and cables. Hoping it will sound better though. That said I will list it in a few months and follow through with my plan, as I’m interested in the K50 and finally the MU1 as well. I may lose a bit of cash in the process but it’s worth trying these well respected machines.

Update: I keep forgetting to mention the upcoming Innuos Pulsar as well. I guess finding out how the other side of the fence sounds is intriguing. But the Pulsar could be a profoundly good product with it’s fancy power supply (sounds similar to Statement Nextgen PSU) and included PhoenixUSB Lite. That said I just recently started noticing how much better the files sound played from my Zenith Mk3, so local file support is an option I think I will want to keep, unless the Pulsar is so good at streaming it actually succeeds in removing the need for local file storage altogether. But, no one actually knows how good it is yet.  The Statement Next Gen is supposed to be way ahead of the regular Statement according to those that heard it or have it, which could mean great things for the Pulsar if it shares aspects of the power supply design.

@nyev 

congratulations on your purchase of N20! Once you get N20, let it settle down in your system for at least 72 hours, compare both USB and AES with good cables and post your findings. 

@lalitk , absolutely, will do!  As the unit has only been used two months, and inactive for the past while packed in a box, it may not even be fully burned in yet.  Thinking of coordinating trials of Audioquest Diamond, Shunyata Sigma, and Sablon AES demos.  I should get on that now as it often takes weeks before I see demo cables.  I might check the used market to see what is out there.  For USB all I have now is the Audioquest Diamond, and the only other I’ve tried at the extreme end of the price spectrum is the Nordost Valhalla 2 - which was truly great but for me not worth the premium over the Diamond.

Very curious to see how the N20 sounds compared to Innuos Zenith MK3 + PhoenixUSB.  I almost don’t want to know but I will see how the PhoenixUSB sounds with the N20.  I am crossing my fingers that it sounds the same or worse with the Reclocker and I can sell the PhoenixUSB as planned!  Which will also be doable if AES ends up being the way to go.

Wow, seems the used uber-premium AES cables are mostly 1.25m or less. After my experience with short (sub 1.5m)USB cables sounding far worse than their > 1.5m counterparts, I’d think many are unknowingly undoing the benefits of premium cables by getting shorter cables so they can afford them. Or they simply expect shorter runs are better as that would seem to be logical. I found the the vast performance benefits of longer USB cables over shorter versions BEFORE I read the vendor recommendations on the matter (1.8m or longer according to the Nordost FAQ).

I’ve not done the same comparison with power cables but others say 2m is best. And, Nordost has earned some credibility with their cable length recommendations as what they say matches what I discovered first hand (for USB at least), before being informed of this.

Thinking I should just buy a used Audioquest Diamond AES cable so it will be a fair comparison to the USB Diamond I have. There is a used one 50% off of retail that appears to be in good condition so thinking I may go with that.  Will hang on to it for my eventual test of the Pulsar/K50/MU1, all of which will be a ways off.  Will also see if I can get a demo Sigma and Omega just to compare.

@nyev Congratulations on your purchase. I've found a solid silver USB cable is best, so an AQ Diamond is ideal.

1.8m for USB

1.0m+ for ICs

1.0m is ok for PCs

Nordost are bright and revealing

Get some SR Purple fuses

@nyev 

Most everything we’ve learned about ideal USB cable length is applicable to…USB cable length. USB cables do a very different job in a very different way than AES/EBU cables. For instance, USB cables are also called upon to carry an electrical current since many dacs (and printers and other computer peripherals compliant with the universal serial bus standard) require it for their USB ports/handshake to operate. Many USB cable makers for Hifi offer their USB cables with/without the power option. Curious and Final Touch Audio quickly come to mind.

Many of your posts talk about your desire for detail and warmth. While they aren’t mutually exclusive, there are some cable “flavors” that do head down one road or the other. I wince ever so slightly when you mention Valhalla and AQ Diamond as they don’t typically bring warmth to the table, but everyone has their own preferences. I have found there are a wide array of differences between USB cables, AES/EBU cables are far less variable.

I'm betting on Phoenix usb vs N20, the only statement Aurender makes in relation to usb port is that it's isolated, doesn't say anything about power supply and clock. The preferred output on it looks to be all the SPDIF,  most of their efforts went here, clocks and power supplies.

This lack of optimal implementation of usb in vast majority of plug n play streamers has been my major issue with them since usb is optimal input on my dac. None of the Aurenders provide for the most optimal usb,  W20SE seems to max out here, still not best available.  Still, in the end it may not matter if using SPDIF with your dac, or with any dac provides better sound than usb.

I continue to be curious about this ongoing lack of optimal usb utilization in so many high end streamers, obviously Innuous and some others know how to do it, to not include it these high priced streamers is a crime in my book. And this is why I became much more interested in custom builds based on Windows platform. I can utilize great variety of optimized, top flight rendering via Pink Faun and JCAT usb, AES/EBU, I2S, coax, net cards. All have superior filtering/power supplies which can be powered via external lps vs motherboard, also have OXCO/Femto clocks, this is superior rendering, anything less is less.

Assuming  these top brand streamer manufacturers actually know how to build and implement top flight usb , and have tested and voiced them with dacs implementing top flight usb boards, I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

@sns I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

That could very well be it. Perhaps these manufacturers have done their own testing and comparing and find AES/EBU-SPDIF BNC/RCA better sounding than USB. It is certainty plausible.

Charles

USB cable length posts are interesting. I designed and built many USB cables  over the years. I made lengths from 13 inches to 2 meters. I listen extensively to all my cable builds and frankly heard no issues, no sonic differences, with USB cables under 1.5 meters. None.

I do not think the 1.5 meter minimum length for best sound theory applies universally to all USB cables based on my building and listening experience. I have not tested other USB cables in this way so the theory may be true from some.

My builds varied conductor types, levels and types of shielding, build geometry and connectors.

@sns 

I continue to be curious about this ongoing lack of optimal usb utilization in so many high end streamers, obviously Innuous and some others know how to do it, to not include it these high priced streamers is a crime in my book.

Yeah, it's a crime but they still keep flying out the door.

Maybe you should try listening to one sometime instead of scrawling your vast diatribes of shite....

@sns 

I appreciate your posts and know this subject is important if one wants the best sound quality possible from streaming.  

@grannyring With all due respect to yourself, he's not happy because Aurender doesn't publish their proprietary means of USB isolation.

Therefore he believes they don't have one. Been going one about this since forever.

Whatever.................had enough of it!

Understand @lordmelton. I suppose we each have differing sensitivities and I get it. By the way, I checked out your system and you have some great gear! I owned several of Steve’s pieces, Empirical Audio, over the years. Also, the VRE-1 preamp is spectacular!

@ghasley , I would say that Audioquest Diamond and Valhalla 2 USB cables are revealing - not sure if I would agree they are bright?  Maybe.  Rightly or wrongly, my goal is to have my amp and DAC provide a touch of warmth, which the Gryphon does, and have all of my cabling be as revealing as possible.  Rather than the cable adding it’s own character or masking things over. 

@grannyring My system hasn't been updated for a long time, but yes Steve McCormack is a fantastic guy and my VRE has been wonderful and will be getting Steve to work his magic on it again soon.

@nyev As I said above, everyone has their sweet spot when it comes to cabling. I mentioned in another post that I preferred Vodka to Diamond in AQ ethernet cables. But I prefer Network Acoustics ethernet to Audioquest so there’s that. I also didn’t say that Valhalla or Diamond were bright, I communicated that they weren’t warm. I’ll admit that its parsing words, a difference without a distinction.

We can all agree that cable A enhances some things with DAC A, depending on our goals. Room acoustics have as much to do with it as the gear. I have a friend to whom I sent my Shindo amp/preamp and A23 interconnects that he found bright. Holy heck, never heard anyone think Shindo was bright but it turned out his room needed acoustical treatment. In short, you have to admit that very few in our hobby have dropped in Valhalla to achieve warmth…to many they are the epitome of neutrality, to others they are lean. Many believe their version of neutrality is “meat on the bones” while others think thats too warm. Horses for courses and the only opinion you have to respond to is yours. No one besides you understands what is happening in your room, with your gear, your dac, your wire and most importantly, your desires.

@ghasley , I agree with all of your points. My Valhalla 2 speaker cables don’t seem to constrain the midrange warmth of my Diablo amp and DAC, but they most certainly don’t add warmth. I found that the Valhalla 2 USB and power cords do however attenuate bass vs Audioquest, unlike the Valhalla 2 speaker cables. Had this not been the case I would have gone full Valhalla 2 throughout.

My desired balance is to have a fuller, solid, fleshy and well-grounded bass and mid, but with ambience, air and transparency through the entire band, including high frequencies, all with crisp leading-edge emphasis but not at the expense of the rest of the tones. Have I achieved that? Not 100% sure actually! I could use a touch more “groundedness” (if that makes sense) in the mids maybe, and maybe touch more confidence and transparency in the higher frequencies. Maybe my exploration of network players/servers will help with that.

I did read one single person’s characterization (so grain of salt and all that) of the Innuos sound to be “the closest thing to a concert hall experience” as a differentiation from other players. That description to me doesn’t quite jive with my objectives noted above, and I do actually think that concert hall description may apply to my system’s current sound to some degree. Vocals are quite far back in the mix and my system does set you back from the soundstage quite a bit. This is distinctly the opposite of how people describe the Diablo, which is often described as a “front row” presentation. Maybe if this person is right I will lose that concert hall effect changing out the player. We’ll see.  But it also could be more my speakers than anything.

Update, since the much talked about and lauded Jorma AES cable is similar in price to the Audioquest Diamond (even a bit lower cost possibly), I’ve reached out to Jorma directly and also to Vanaltd.com who they list as their North America rep.  Hoping I can get a trial or purchase with return privileges.  Does anyone know of any other dealer that sells Jorma?  Other than The Cable Co that lists them, but I understand that people have not been having the best experience there over the past couple of years.

@lordmelton Yes, I've gone on and on about usb rendering, and that is because I and others have experienced the benefits of optimal usb rendering via many of the dedicated usb devices out there. Why shouldn't I point out the possible liabilities of less than optimal usb when what constitutes optimal usb is known to at least some manufacturers and users of these manufacturer's devices!

I've stated the possible reasons these streamers don't utilize optimal usb, this being they find other rendering schemes superior. So, whats the problem, I think you have problem because I'm critical of Aurender usb implementation. Charles seem to have understood my conditional criticism of it! I understand you love your Aurender, have need to defend it, I'm agnostic about brands and schemes, have long realized sound preferences are totally subjective, I haven't the slightest idea about sound quality of your setup. However, there are some objective criteria in audio, technical aspects of usb rendering are one of those, high quality filtering, power supply and clocking are optimal, nothing can change this equation unless one wants to simply believe this not to be true.

Esoteric N-01XD?

@lewl28 

The Esoterics are nice dacs for those who like Esoteric. This particular model is a streaming dac which is even cooler, however, it isnt what the OP was asking for.

@sns , @lordmelton , I suddenly am very much looking forward to seeing whether my PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender N20’s USB output to see who is right!

I suggest leaving the subject alone until I render my verdict! :)

I do wonder if this battle would give Innuos an unfair advantage, since the PhoenixUSB has its own dedicated power supply in its own dedicated box.  I suspect just having a separate power cord to power the clock in isolation could be an advantage.

I have a lot of respect for Innuos based on my experience. And I know a lot of others have a huge respect for Aurender, so my expectations are high for when the N20 arrives.

IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……

IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……

A rational conclusion if this were to be the outcome.

@sns is right. Whichever signal path output/input a given brand has chosen to "optimize" will be their best sounding. Most concentrated attention and focused efforts (Design and implementation) subsequently determine the sonic performance.

Charles

I suppose this “competition” I’m about to run when my N20 arrives is not just between Innuos and Aurender, but also between USB and AES on my Diablo DAC module.  As it is my only DAC, sadly I’ll be unable to see if the results are generally consistent on other DACs.  I know Gryphon has put a lot of focus on the USB interface of my DAC (including a supercap that  powers the USB instead of the source device) but I have no idea about the AES interface.  But it seems people on this thread suggest, if I understand correctly, that the input device takes over when AES is used, implying the DAC AES implementation quality matters less.  Not sure if I got that right.  
 

I’m looking forward to testing AES with my N20 but Jorma and their NA rep Vantaltd has not got back to me on my request for a 1.5M AES cable.  Yet, but it’s only been a day.  

Anyone know where else I can get a Jorma cable?

@nyev 

The Cable Company is the easiest USA access point for Jorma. Much of the adverse feedback over the years for The Cable Company comes from those The Cable Company have cut off from their generous return policy. You see some people exploit the return option vs paying the appropriate fees to access their lending library…and then they do it over and over. Then, once cutoff, they come on forums and whine about it.

Use the The Cable Company, they have them in stock and ship promptly.

I do like advice of using Cable Company, I used them extensively years ago when trying to determine the value cables of all kinds bring to systems, very enlightening! Never had issue with returns and I must have gone through hundreds of cables in total.

@nyev I'll be very interested in outcome. SPDIF/ AES/EBU is intriguing in that at least some high end streamer manufacturers use it as their reference scheme. I presume its easier to implement in dacs as well, perhaps even in dacs with optimized usb, AES/EBU could provide best sound quality, you're comparison could enlighten here.

I also really like the Innuos Statement with new Sean Jacobs ps, and they continue to believe in usb, provide optimal, perhaps best usb rendering. For anyone thinking I'm dissing on Aurender, I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me. I've done my due diligence on streamers for quite some time, go to the most experienced streamers on audiophilestyle and whatsbestforums for advice. I believe  all of the above streamers can provide highest sound quality, the best for any single individual's setup is the determining factor, this is choice for that individual to make. Just because I went in different direction doesn't mean I don't highly respect all of these manufacturers.

“I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me.”

@sns

Which one of the top flight servers/streamers you auditioned in your system? And which DAC or DAC’s did you pair these servers to arrive at your ratings of one, two and three?

Since there's been some discussion of rendering, usb in particular. I was just reminded by poster in my network thread about the 5v power feed in usb. In case some aren't aware, some dacs don't require the 5v feed for power or handshake, in this case either purchase usb without the 5v feed or tape over 5v leg inside connector. Noise rides on this 5v line, removing should decrease noise floor. I've long done tape method with my favored AQ Diamond USB.

@nyev 

Couple of brands for your AES cable consideration; Audience, Acrolink (if you can find it used), Acoustic Revive and Combak (aka Harmonix). 

@latik This not based on my own listening, this based on many reviews/comparisons over last couple years. This is simply my order of preference, not an objective or presented as objective order of hiearchy. Whatever the true order, I don't believe there's any question these are amongst the best streamers out there. May be others I have no knowledge of. I also base my ratings on the amount of proprietary technology that's gone into these particular streamers. I know some Individuals that have  been trying to clone the Taiko for some time now, gave up the pursuit and simply purchased the Taiko.

@ghasley Didn't mean to create confusion, nor did I want to imply that you were in any way affiliated with that advertisement. You are clearly not. I'm not sure I even saw you post, before I posted.

In terms of pricing, a dealer would know best the current MSRP -- my point was simply that it's a little bizarre to see an ad for a used unit, priced above what a brand new unit would go for (after giving effect to a typical "frequent buyer" discount that some dealers will give).