Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@antigrunge2 , I guess the combined DAC/Streamer/Server/High Precision clock approach hasn’t been contemplated on this thread really. As I’ve been focused on testing separate servers and outboard dedicated DACs.

That’s an interesting question - if I were to sell my Tambaqui, Innuos Server, and Innuos Reclocker (along with two premium Audioquest Dragon power cords and two Audioquest Diamond USB cables, that would likely pave the way to open up a path to a very high-end uber DAC/Server combo component. But ultimately I think this would be a compromise in SQ…. Maybe? Not sure!

Not considering going this route at present, but an interesting concept I’d not considered.

The best reason for combining Dac and streamer relates to only using one clock (expensive if good), one box and one set of power cables obviating the need for digital cables which are highly inconsistent and system dependent. 
 

Conversely there is still a religious war going on on R2R vs upsampling dacs and streamer operating systems are anything but mature.

Roon’s solution of separating streamers and servers looks increasingly outdated, however as improvements in streaming technology increasingly obviate,the benefit of local libraries.

@nyev That's always the problem with 2 box dac/streamers.

You need a reference digital cable. Otherwise performance will suffer.

You also need more good power cords.

And if you change your Dragon XLR to Black Cat Tron, the sound will change.

@lalitk I agree, the outboard DAC has the advantage. But I think there is a caveat. Had I put basic level cables on the DAC I think the Tambaqui may still have won but I think it would have been REALLY close. I put an Audioquest Dragon XLR on it, and I now have a Dragon power cord on it that I have on loan. So in the end, yes my Tambaqui is far better, but when you include that level of cabling that is a big price tag. But I’m happy with the performance, even if this was probably a case where diminishing returns may have applied even more than it normally does.

For reference, the boost I had with the Tambaqui before I upgraded from a Hurricane to a Dragon power cord, may actually be smaller than the boost I’m hearing with three of my AQ Hurricane power cords upgraded to Dragons. Or maybe the Dragon on the Tambaqui is allowing it to reach its full potential. so many variables!

“Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?”

@nyev

I guess you finally have an answer to your query. Well, I hope you had fun throughout this exercise and gained a nice DAC in the process. IMHO, it’s unfair to compare a DAC modules to an outboard DAC much like an integrated network card in a DAC to an outboard Streamer. They may not sound bad but they just don’t stand a chance against a full blown component. At least that’s been my experience! 

Out of curiosity, pull Ethernet cable from Innuous and connect it to Tambaqui. In Roon enable Tambaqui as end point. Give it a shot. Takes few mins. Whenever you have some time. If your innuos is the roon core, just connect the innuos with basic Ethernet cable. As long as the best cable is on the Mola. 

@audphile1 I’ve used Roon when I had the MU1, and still can with Innuos. But the Innuos Sense app sounds superior so I use that exclusively now.

I’ve not tried the Tambaqui as a Roon End Point, no. I guess to do that properly, I’d need another (third) good quality network cable which I do not have, to run from my Zenith Mk3 to the Tambaqui. Also, I’m not sure there would be any point for me to try that? I suppose it would eliminate the need for the USB reclocker, but using the Tambaqui as a Roon player would compromise its performance as a straight ahead DAC, no?

@lalitk ditto. We’ll see if it happens. 

@nyev do you use Roon? And if so, have you tried the Tambaqui as a Roon end point, without the streamer?

Update! After this intense journey, I did sell the Grimm, due to a short-term financial need. I kept my Tambaqui and am continuing to enjoy it immensely. I have to say it did make more of an impact, in my system, than the MU1 did. But all that means is that the Tambaqui is a bigger leap ahead of my prior Gryphon Diablo 300 (integrated amp) DAC module, than the Grimm MU1 was over my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker (also have the PhoenixNET Ethernet switch as well).

So. Do I miss the MU1? Yes and No. Sucks that I still need my extra box (USB reclocker), and the MU1 definitely had slightly better coherence and saturation. But going back to my Innuos setup, there IS that extra bit of air and expansiveness that I didn’t have with the Grimm. Upgrading the internal Ethernet cable as described above could have bumped up the MU1 in these areas, that would have been I interesting to test.  Of note, I also did throw a Synergistic Master Fuse in my Zenith. Interestingly I noted a wild, roller coaster breakin where the sound would swing from compressed and congested to hyper-revealing, obnoxiously so, every 1.5 days or so. The swings got smaller until it stabilized. Is the fuse better in the end? I’ll have to swap the generic fuse back in at some point to see, as after those wild swings it is hard to recall how the Innuos sounded prior to the Synergistic fuse.

So was the MU1 better than my starting point, in my system? Maybe, but by a hair. The big gain really was the addition of the Tambaqui.

I also upgraded to Audiovector R6 Arette speakers. Prior to my digital journey described in this thread, I had lugged my Gryphon Diablo 300 amp to multiple dealers in a different city, to test 8 high end speakers (from Magico, Sonus Faber, B&W, Paradigm, and Wilson), and had found none that really caught my interest. Eventually tested the Audiovector’s and everything suddenly clicked. Very happy with the results, especially with the Audioquest Dragon source cords I’m demoing now (wow).

Eventually will go back to try to rid myself of that darn reclocker box. Maybe a Statement Next Gen after all, lol….. In time. Right now I don’t feel it’s needed!

For those who have seen the comments on replacing the internal ethernet cable in the Grimm MU1, we now have a marvelous solution that has just been developed.  Kubala-Sosna has just finished their work on an internal ethernet/LAN cable for the marvelous Grimm MU1 unit.  The new cable will be from Kubala-Sosna's flagship Realization line.  This will be available from GTT Audio.

@fastfreight 

I am looking forward to ROON implementation in Aurender streamers. 

Hi @lalitk , I can not disagree.  But I want my cake and eat it too!  So if Aurender's streamer is a Roon endpoint, I would have both the convenience and attributes of Roon and the ability to use the Conductor for critical listening...if it sounds better :) This is key to many Taiko owners..ability to use both at a high level.

It’s no secret that ROON needs more processing more to run its fancy and complexed software. IME, ROON is not the best choice when it comes to handling and passing of digital bits if you are comparing solely based on SQ. Many Innuous users already reported that Sense App sounds better than ROON (same setup). And my findings are just the same, Aurender’s Conductor app in direct comparison with ROON sounds much more sublime and faithful. 

Again, this is all very subjective and whether someone can hear or care to listen intently between ROON and competing proprietary Apps is also largely depends on one’s rest of the system and a choice of streamer / DAC. 

Even when you switch all ‘noisy’ functions off in Roon you still need to run it on a processor capable of fulfilling those functions; and that alone through additional power and processing generates noise.

@carlsbad2 said:

@antigrunge2 sounds like we are both after the same minimalist system (when it comes to the signal path). I agree Roon offers a bunch of DSP but I keep it turned off. I have used volume control when testing a DAC w/o VC and it wasn’t bad, but generally VC is even locked out. with it all turned off, roon and innuos both pass a naked signal through the streamer to the DAC.

I also love Roon and want to keep it. And I totally agree about the convenience and quality of Grimm MU1 running Roon Core and its upsampling.

But I do think Roon makes more ’noise’ even when all the processing, volume and multiple zones are turned off. I have been told it creates much more network traffic by pinging to make sure you have a subscription, providing metadata etc. Simply it makes more noise (I have been told).

When I had the XACT S1 on trial, it sounded amazing. Better easily than my Grimm running Roon. Marcin at JCAT says Roon can never sound as good as his streamer without Roon, My goal is to keep Roon, but optimize it to its best. While I love the Grimm, and have two systems, I have my eye on Aurender N30SA when it is a certified Roon endpoint, and of course eyeball the Taiko Extreme. Now that Taiko has announced their new better Olympus streamer, Extremes are showing up used for the same price as the new N30SA...

And I am now enjoying the MU1 with internal upgrade of its network cable, sounding even better. And I still stand by a great switch making even these SOTA machines sound better.

@antigrunge2 sounds like we are both after the same minimalist system (when it comes to the signal path).  I agree Roon offers a bunch of DSP but I keep it turned off.  I have used volume control when testing a DAC w/o VC and it wasn't bad, but generally VC is even locked out.    with it all turned off, roon and innuos both pass a naked signal through the streamer to the DAC.  --Jerry

@carlsbad2 

Let‘s just agree to disagree: InnuOS Sense and Roon are fundamentally different philosophies: Roon believes in heavy procssing and power akin to high powered amps whereas InnuOS believes in purist minimalist design akin to SET tube amps. To me they feel and sound very different.

I have never agreed with those who felt innuos sense sounds better than roon.  I find no difference.  the streamer is doing the same thing, just a different human interface.  I hear no difference.

@antigrunge2 I suggest you look up the definition of tongue-in-cheek.  If that does't work for you, perhaps there are other words now in the dictionary that apply.  Would you prefer the wine review descriptions I read here..."subtle overtures of anis and a hint of manure..."   definitely some manure in some of the reviews I read here.  

I prefer the Grimm but don't want to bash the Innuos as it sounds great too.  Some reviewers can't pick one piece of gear without bashing the other and that is not my intention.

Jerry

I agree in my limited tests: Mac mini running Roon vs Euphony Stylus and Euphony sounded better; Innuos Zenith MkIII Sense native player vs Roon and preferred the Sense player over Roon.

My conclusion / assumption is these designers maximized (or maybe "tuned / shaped") their native players to get best sound versus doing a pass through of the Roon player. 

Several people mention their preference for the MU1 running Roon over Innuos (I'm assuming running the Sense native player), and I'm guessing either Grimm has figured out how to get better SQ out of Roon, or Grimm maybe is running or shaping the SQ.... 

@carlsbad2

may I suggest you look up the definition of ‘inferior’? Also, using InnuOS in a Roon setting is never going to do it justice. InnuOS’ main attraction is the use of its Sense operating system which requires less processing power and as a result produces less noise than Roon based systems. There is a formung consenses that Sense beats Roon in SQ

@buickwilson I didn't mean to ignore your question. you didn't put @ in front of my name so I didn't get a notification.

So long term I've decided the grimm is indeed more to my liking than the Innuos  Since, I have replace my DAVE with a Lampizator Golden Gate 3 and the Grimm is a great match with the Lampizator.

Putting the Innuos back in service I don't find it inferior at all, just not as good.  

Additionally, the Grimm has the onboard upscaling and onbaord Roon core which is convenient.  one downside to the grimm is no remote.  You can log into the grimm using its IP address but not always convenient.  there are some functions, such as software update, that have to be done at the unit so if it is low in your rack you are on your knees.

Jerry

No it’s not the best I have heard by a mile.

Taiko Extreme best Sonics.

Aurender W20SE my favorite all around 

Aurender N30 best if you have the space for 2 chassis.

Thanks @fastfreight 

Hi @ghasley,

I can't swap from the stock to new.

So my comparison is remembering it before, then a week away, then hearing it now.

@fastfreight but how are you comparing the stock cable to the M101? 

Hi @ghasley I had a new internal ethernet cable replaced in my MU1.

We took out the stock generic 1 foot cable and replaced it with a M101Ethernet cable.

How are you guys comparing ethernet cables for the Mu1? 

@fastfreight

Of course, cable designers deserves just as much praise for being on board. I am attempting a similar upgrade with @richtruss, he has graciously agreed to built a custom data cable for my N30SA.

Hello @lalitk, I only went for it.  Kudos to Lubomir of M101.

@lalitk : happy holidays my friend

@thyname

The ‘best’ is so subjective…for some folks, one box streamer/DAC can provide very compelling and satisfying listening experience.

@fastfreight

I am happy for you, kudos to you for thinking outside the box. Enjoy!

Happy Holidays to everyone.

A friend of mine got the Grimm MU2: 

According to him, best DAC he ever had. Yes, he is male gender 😂🤦‍♂️. And that thing is also a Roon Core (server) and streamer as well

@fastfreight I have a second system just set up. (need to update systems page but that's not pressing) The room isn't a nice as system and needs treatment.  How nice would it be to have the MU2 or MU1 ac the core? KiSS system set up too with a three in one component.

Hey @wsrrsw !  Yes love the customer service.  Mr Eelco just emailed me back personally about the ability to run core on either the MU1 or MU2 and use the other as Roon endpoint.  This is coming soon. (certified Roon endpoint).  Yes if the MU2 is all that people say, it could even replace say my Makua with onboard Tambaqui DAC and a separate streamer (I have two systems).  But being better than Grimm - Tambaqui combo is still to be seen!  I will pm you with who did the mod.  And yes, I am sure voids warranty...but the new cable plugs at both ends with RJ45 so not impossible to undo.

Agree overhyped detail usually destroys image depth… as i said hopeful !,,, ;-)

@fastfreight  Now look what you have done! Won't the mod void the warranty? But pease PM me your guy who did the mod. 

I recently had a hiccup w/ the Grimm MU1. It stoped working correctly and all that was needed was an over the web re-set done by the, we’re on it, folks in the Netherlands. I had a delightful call with Eelco Grimm. Love it when the owner is in the store. If needed, Grimm support is topnotch.  All it takes is a single one or a zero to go off and go off it did  Service on both sides of the Ocean was fantastic. John in California did considerable hand holding and presto. Also praise can be said of Lumin service. I had an issue and got high level resolving help. Hint, always ask your dealer for a name.

My network off Agon is absolutely gah gah over the M2. Over the years I have heard a lot of extolling of stuff but the M2 seems to be universally drooled over. Better than the Chord Dave, Esoteric Grandioso D1X w/ bumbled with a high end streamer (just random examples)? That much better?  Smoke 'em if you got 'em. 

But harshness does not enhance the soundstage as here.  Usually the opposite.

Yes I have considered this...I just turned it down a bit.  It honestly seemed louder.

I will wait for fatigue free ten hour listen report…..but promising

Hello @ghasley @thyname @lalitk @snopro @wsrrsw , Happy Holidays!!! 

So somethings about my Grimm MU1.  Interesting how many say it is immune to different ethernet and or power cables.   Also very interesting was in the M101 room at CAF. Lubomir was demonstrating the positive effects  (improvement in sound) of inserting his 1.5m ethernet cable going into the streamer or DAC.  But in his demonstration, he bypassed the Grimm to show off his cable.  Why? Because the mu1 uses a generic internal ethernet cable.  In a sense this generic cable 'undoes' the benefits of using an expensive ethernet cable into it.

So, you are thinking, (at least I was) can we replace the internal ethernet cable in the mu1?  Lubomir liked this question and was already on to it.  So I sent him my unit, and he replaced the stock cable with an identical length of his ethernet cable (M101).

I received it back last night and have only listened for about an hour.  But, it is astonishing!  The soundstage has opened, and I can now pinpoint locations of performers even better than before.  The attack and dynamics are formidable, with great bass and yet still organic and smooth.  For those who said the Grimm was too laid back and polite, say that no more with this modification. The highs are uber crisp.  It is though the music jumps out at you.

The Grimm MU1 is indeed a great component. 

@lalitk , When I got my Grimm I had already decided I liked the Muon Pro Filter System.

With the Grimm, I tried it with and without the Muon.  The improvement was more subtle, yet I did hear an improvement with the Muon.  I think this acts similar to a fancy Ethernet cable, no?

@thyname I agree.   The Grimm sounds great, runs Roon core, is very stable and boots quickly.   

@lalitk 

Now that’s interesting…Isn’t MU1 immune to Audiophile LAN cables?

I believe the Grimm is less sensitive to ethernet cables than one might assume. I believe it is essentially agnostic if provided a stable and reliable connection and data stream.

@thyname 

I think the fad is dying up pretty quick. I love to be proven wrong. All the OG Grimm enthusiasts I know gave up on it. Admittedly my sample size is small 

Most of the Grimm users with whom I’m acquainted have happily hopped off the merry-go-round (and spent less time on the audio forums) and are just listening to and enjoying their music. I’m thrilled with my Grimm now for around two years. It feeds a DCS Bartok Apex via a Shunyata Sigma v2 AES/EBU cable. Absolutely sublime and natural sounding to my ears.

hello @lalitk my answer is a resounding hmmmm....

“There was a second Mu1 being shown in room 726, M101 cables. He used it to demonstrate the effectiveness of his ethernet cable.”
@fastfreight

Now that’s interesting…Isn’t MU1 immune to Audiophile LAN cables?

@mapman my map man…

There were at least two Grimm MU1's at CAF.  Bill w GTT showed his with the Makua Preamp with onboard Tambaqui DAC.  The amps were the new Percas, using two stereo amps in a vertically biwired configuration.  I did not find the Vivid Giyas bright.

There was a second Mu1 being shown in room 726, M101 cables.  He used it to demonstrate the effectiveness of his ethernet cable.

Ah… I was at Bill’s room twice. I missed it. Maybe because Bill kept bringing up the Mola Mola only, especially the new amp (or preamp, sorry I don’t quite recall)