Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@lalitk , I too thought I read something about Innuos supporting AES on their latest Pulse series (dedicated streaming players), but I checked earlier today and they don’t list AES under the list of supported interfaces.

UPDATE: My mistake, I was looking under the "connectivity" specifications, not "Audio Outputs". AES is in fact added on the Pulse series. Guessing Innuos will launch new servers / players based on the updates in the Pulse. Seems like they have an opportunity to launch an upgraded Zenith with the power supply updates of the Pulsar streamer, and with a high-precision "PhoenixUSB" clock under the hood, and with AES support, at a price that is halfway between the current Zenith Mk3 and the Statement.

@ghasley If someone says box A sounds better than box B, that can be debated. If some says "we are capable of 24/3072 resolution and our competition isn’t"...thats quantifiable, printable and repeatable but the secondary question rarely gets posed...does it matter?

Spot on!

I've asked that very question, do those numbers truly matter? Agree with @lalitk .​​@ghasley ​​​​​,  you've made numerous salient points in this thread.

Charles

Have the Lumin P1 utilizing fiber optic from a Melco S100, and output on USB and/or BNC to Lampizator Baltic 4 or Musetec MH-DA005 or Gustard R26 then onto a Gryphon Diablo 300. I didn’t opt for an internal DAC cuz obviously I already had great external DACs. Btw I use Transparent cabling - and if you’re curious, the P1’s internal dual mono chip-based DAC is very good, a different flavor rather than something I’d say is better or worse than my external DACs, more importantly the P1 has proven to be a great streaming platform, as good or better than the Lumin U1 in my other system. Curious about the Grimm but can’t quite get my head around no high-rate USB OR I2S output just AES. My best results consistently come via a DDC using I2S although occasionally BNC is surprisingly more dynamic and engaging on some tracks though I have no idea why. Also the P1 renders a TV HDMI signal via ARC to 2 channel sound so I’m getting fantastic TV sound finally. Regardless, can someone explain why you think Grimm opted to forgo USB/I2S outputs?

Regardless, can someone explain why you think Grimm opted to forgo USB/I2S outputs?

The Grimm team seems to be well organized, experienced and have done their homework/research. I get the impression they find no genuine superiority of USB orI2S signal paths. In fact they may have determined well executed AES/EBU is better sounding.

Hans Beekhuyzen did a recent review of the Magna Mano Ultra MK III and compared its AES output to I2S and found them equal in sound quality. So possibly more hype than real world performance enhancement. As has been mentioned during this thread (Numerous times) quality of and attention to implementation /optimization is likely the dominant determinant.

Charles

@kairosman 

Grimm chose spdif, primarily aes/ebu because superior jitter reduction and clocking were integral to its sound quality goals.

USB is clocked at the dac so variable results. I2S is great if the sender and receiver are optimized for one another. There are alot of great solutions out there. If you like what you have, stop looking…you’re welcome.

There is other ways to do this for example Sonore optical server, rendu and excellent LPS  Sonore verygood asis uptone but I just was part of a shootout 

Linear Tube Audio makes a even better LPS in several ways in build as well as sound for a bit less  monies . I am working on  having 5 LPS including my latest 

modem- router combo upgrade the LPS with a decent pangea sig power cord and the very good stock Linear Audio DC Pc truly made a nice improvement from the starting point of the stream before going tothe optical which I use 2 Sonore deluxe modules, every power cable counts when streaming besides the Ethernet cables .

I truly don’t see how they can justify a little nuk board ,a intel i3 processor for $11 k 

whenfor $5k you can get the excellent Fiber optic Sonore with a intel I 9 processor 16 megs of ram ,super fast ideal for HQ player which needs at least a i7 processor

and takesRoon to another level which is built into the backend of arion , then you can literally tune this to your Audio system exactly to your taste with some time and practice .i am just starting to learn it , and theExcellentT&A 200 dac is built with HQ player in mind with several dither setting and a bunch of other adjustments 

withthe hdmi board its$7500 so at the moment I am saving it but it’s my favorite dac    
even against Denafrips latest plus 12 anniversary, and Holo springsmsy KTE ,

ilike it better-then the chorddave , including mola mola these2 May have a slight edge in pure transparency but are a bit too analytical compared .i judt want something that sounds great and very natural theT&A200 dac youcan get foraround $6600  with hdmi board .

@audioman58 

I missed the part in your posts where you had ever experienced Aurender, Grimm, Innuos or Antipodes server/streamers.

In our north east audio club I have tested 90% of all dacs, and streamers out there .

that’s why building ,or have a super fast  streamer, server with HQ player gives anyone the most flexibility and sonic performance possibly and HQplayer is-not That expensive and the first 2 weeks are free.

@kairosman 

Regardless, can someone explain why you think Grimm opted to forgo USB/I2S outputs?

Because it's for the same reason that people were told SACDs were no better than Cds. A lot of people here have DACs that can't play DSD so it's of no interest to them.

Additionally if you are over 70 years old can you really trust your own hearing?

You will naturally gravitate to sweet valves and R2R DACs.

DSD is the best, most accurate digital sound reproduction, bar none. DSD can only be reproduced over USB and I2s with very few exceptions.

@audioman58 , can you let me know the general characteristics of the Antipodes Antipodes K50, the MU1, the Aurender N20, and also the Innuos Zenith (Mk3) when combined with the PhoenixUSB Reclocker? From your post I imagine you have testing these.

Genuinely interested in a very general characterization of these products from someone who has experienced all of these. I know that each component is subject to a plethora of variables, but I hear the K50 for example universally described as tonally rich//dense.

I am starting to consider an alternate approach. Buy used, live with it for a few months, sell. If I find the magic streamer/server I can always sell and buy it new at that point. Even though I said I am not interested in the Aurender N20 I might start with this option as it’s the lowest cost of the class of products I’m looking at. Then I’d move to the K50. Then I’d trial a new MU1 (since there are never any used for sale). A long approach but I’d get very familiar with each.

One concerning thing I read in other forums (Whatsbest) is some concerns about the quality of Antipodes products, with more than a few accounts of people receiving new units that have major issues. Usually with SSD and USB interfaces not working at all. In all cases the issues were expeditiously resolved but it did spur some negative sentiment on the poor level of quality.

“Curious about the Grimm but can’t quite get my head around no high-rate USB OR I2S output just AES.”
@kairosman

Further to what @ghasley said, MU1 is designed to stream max resolution upto 192kHz, which is also the standard for a single wire AES/EBU protocol. This pretty much eliminates the need to implement USB or i2S. While one can use MU1 in a conventional system, it truly intended to be a centerpiece for their LS series self-powered speakers.

@lordmelton exactly my thoughts. I just can't understand in this day and age considering how quickly digital playback is evolving why a manufacturer would limit a product's input/output/format/sampling options. Some here have responded to my query by restating the manufacturer's and 'enthusiastic' reviewers' claims that SPDIF and AES are easier to clock precisely, but many other manufacturers suggest I2S is superior in that regard for many reasons most of which are too technical for me to fully appreciate. Rather than an either or approach, most higher end manufacturers try to give customers lots of choices, but regardless, this thread has piqued my interest, I've decided I'm going to audition the Grimm to hear for myself what the fuss is all about. 

@kairosman Thank you, I2s is the best provided it is handled natively, although USB is very, very close. DSD is important to me so I won't use SPDIF.

I use the Aurender N20 to the Musetec 005 (which you have) an excellent pairing via solid silver USB, I have tried I2s too, but it needs to be native.

@lalitk 's system is probably the best that isn't off the charts price wise.

@lordmelton , just curious, have you compared the AES interface of your N20 to USB?

@nyev Of course. The main problem with the Musetec 005 DAC is that it takes forever and a day to burn in. So, yes I used AES and USB in tandem until the USB started pulling away from AES.

I have a 10mHZ master clock connected to the N20, which contary to popular belief, also improves USB too.

I hope you don't mind me saying but it looks like your system components are set up for a revealing system while I think you want a more romantic sound with a seductive midrange, valves?

Audioquest Dragon PCs are some of the best PCs but they will tell you as it is, I have several.

Maybe Cardas would be better for you.

@kairosman

this thread has piqued my interest, I’ve decided I’m going to audition the Grimm to hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

This is an excellent step. Actually auditioning  of the Grimm MU1 in your audio system and compare to what you’re currently accustomed to. I don’t believe that USB and I2S are inherently better. But it’s just one man’s opinion. You will be in a position to determine for yourself. I applaud your effort and willingness to try. This beats preconceived notions and personal bias.

Best wishes,

Charles

+1, @lordmelton 

If you have the capability to add external clock, you must try this option. It’s what I call the ‘X’ factor. Based on what’ve experienced with my DAC and N20, a high quality 10MHz external clock is a next level upgrade. 

@nyev 

No affiliation but there is a preowned Grimm just listed for sale on that other site. 8tb ssd, 8 gig ram. For those in Southern California, you could pick it up.

Once again, there are alot of opinions and everyone is certain of their path. The OP seemed to be interested in a one box solution and seemed to be interested at pricepoints between $10k and $20k. The Aurender is hard to go wrong with…and I wouldn’t worry too much about Antipodes QC…its great gear. The Innuos is also terrific and their customer support is exceptional. One thing the Innuos has going for it is you can use Roon…or not. The Grimm is optimized for Roon but if Roon isnt your preference then scratch it off the list. 

Alot of posters enjoy their dsd and for good reason…its the cleanest dirty shirt in the digital hamper. Just like in vinyl, there are millions of variables (phono stages, tube vs ss, step up transformers, cartridge choices, TT choices, idlers vs belt drive, multi motors, mass vs lightweight, cables, wires, isolation, power cables and treatment). I listen for enjoyment, I prefer the least number of variables to troubleshoot…but I recognize that others in our hobby prefer otherwise. There are more than a few setup photos on the Audiogon systems section where you can almost imagine the marital status of the individual and there interior design preferences. Ive mentioned before in other posts in other threads that there is a very valid (for them) subsection of individuals in our hobby whose setups more closely resemble something out of a Rube Goldberg drawing with special cable lifters, rare African wood footers and almost always….a single chair (usually a barcolounger with soiled/worn velour fabric with some Taco Bell stains here and there). Its all good, everyone gets out of the hooby what they want.

I assume though that the OP is after a clean install by his excellent choice of the Gryphon Diablo and their inboard dac. He can choose a well built/engineered server/streamer and elevate his enjoyment. One box, one power cable, one cable to his Diablo and accomplish his goal. OR…he can construct a shrine to “I can make it work but it takes 6 boxes, 6 power cables, numerous connection points and other unecessary tweaks and variables with no guarantee it will sound better because in most cases they havent experienced a five figure server/streamer in a proper way. For many here, they have an abundance of time and they enjoy the trial and error of introducing complexity. That doesn’t describe me.

Demo it in your room with your gear. Decide for yourself, there is no best and there are many roads to get where you want to go. 

Just to add to this thread. I have owned the Grimm for a fair amount of time! 3+ years. One of the earlier adopters.

Having met and spoken with the manufacturers close to nearly a decade back gave me the strength that they know this domain as well as others, and implement theory into practical to see if it actually works and sounds better.

Being able to play in mostly all formats for today, digital and analog the MU-1 has given me great enjoyment with some of the longest listening session which I have never done before, due to it’s convenience.

There may be other flavours, but do try it out and then decide.

One thing for sure, you won’t go disappointed that I wish I had heard this other component as its ’so much’ better than the MU-1.

You’ll only be playing in the space of personal preferences off one component over another.

@ghasley 

I would love to see pics of your audio den :-) 

@ghasley 

A quick off topic aside. The A.N.Jinro-Orangutan 96 pairing must sound utterly natural and involving 

Charles

Lo and behold, a used Grimm shows up on the other website. Folks are free to price things how they like, and folks are free to negotiate as they see fit, but I will say $9.5k for a used Grimm is a bold ask. You can buy one new with full warranty for much less than that. I did. I only say this because there’s a line of thinking, from folks who have never used the device, which goes something like: it’s only a NUC with some clocking and upsampling rigmarole, how could they charge $11k etc etc...

Just making the obvious point that there’s the named price, and then there’s the actual price. Just as a single data point, I do think it’s worth the full MSRP based on sonics alone (for me personally, with all the usual system dependent caveats).

@ghasley

So no real need for the switch or Muon boxes? Just go from modem/router right into the Grimm and dispense with Muon and Aphile switch? Just a decent ethernet cable. You suggest these additional attempts to reduce noise and reclock are no longer helpful with the Grimm. 

@grannyring

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version.

I see. Thanks @lalitk ! The new Pro version is not yet on the Network Acoustics site. I did watch the review by Hans. 

@lordmelton You are right I agree my system is set up to be revealing. But I am attempting to get to a sound that is both romantic and revealing. I find that the Gryphon and it’s DAC help achieve that, with a richer sound and a seductive midrange. So I guess the philosophy of my system is to design it around a somewhat romantic “heart” (amp, DAC), with cabling that is as revealing as possible without changing the sound of my gear. Arguably my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables add something of their own, but not tonally (quick with slight leading edge emphasis). The Valhalla 2 power cords seemed to attenuate bass with my Gryphon (my dealer said someone else also made the same complaint with Valhalla 2 power cords and Gryphon), so I went with the Dragon (after also trying the Shunyata Omega cord which I found to be great but definitely overly romantic).

I’m torn on the used MU1 for sale (thanks for reporting this!). My plan is to try several players/servers before buying a new one, which means I will need to sell each. I don’t mind if I lose some cash in the process provided I get the majority back when I sell each piece (I know it can take time to sell; I’ve sold gear before). But this particular MU1 has a scratch, albeit on one of the back corners. So I’m not sure if I might have a problem selling it. There is an N20 and a K50 that are “mint” for sale now.  Debating on which to jump on.  But the MU1 is definitely not a piece that comes up on the used market often, as I doubt there are as many out there as there are other players/servers.  Good to have choices!

@lalitk 

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version

That explanation makes perfect sense. 

Charles

So with my plan to buy used and live with a K50, a MU1, and possibly a N20 for a few months, I now have options to start with any of the above.

The N20 and K50 are in mint condition but the MU1 has a scratch on the rear corner that you can only see from the rear.

Knowing I plan to sell and move on to another, any votes on which I should start with?  The N20 is the lowest cost as expected.  And the scratch on the MU1 seems like it might affect my ability to resell, not sure….

Given that stated scenario I would begin with the Aurender N20. Very good reputation, less expensive option and due to its popularity shouldn’t be hard to re-sell if necessary. 2nd choice, MU-1 due to undeniable intrigue (Even with the minor cosmetic flaw).

Charles

@grannyring

The 100mbps ports on the Rubicon and the 100mbps through the Muon to the MU1 the affect is negligible. Makes total sense that a gigabit version is in the wings. In fact, Im going to have to try my MU1 on the gigabit ports of the switch.

I am traveling but I will try my MU1 into the gigabit port of the Rubicon when I get back as well as I will see about possibly demoing the Muon Pro. I just found out yesterday that Network Acoustics added a MU1 to their demo system. peace.

@lordmelton Again, I have no affiliation with the seller of the MU! Nor should  @nyev purchase anything he isnt ready to purchase. With that said, your pricing data is a bit dated as well as the supply chain/availability is quite a bit different today. It is my understanding that availability is ZERO. You might want to call a dealer to see if the rumor aligns with the facts. Next up would be to determine what a MU1 with the 8tb ssd and double the ram at 8gb is worth.

MU1’s dont turn up that often on the used market so its your call. I also believe q1 will be when most Americans begin to feel the recession that we have already been in for a couple of months. That usually frees up some used units from those who overspent in the recent past.

“It’s up to you”. They are all great options, can’t decide, lol…. Maybe I will negotiate with all three and let the best result be the decider.

On the other hand this could be my only opportunity to “trial” a MU1 without purchasing a new one. I was thinking that I would try a used N20, then a K50, and then see if a dealer (located across continent and in a different country) would loan me a demo MU1. What are the odds of a dealer agreeing to send a demo, knowing that there are just a small number of Grimm dealers in the US? If there is a good chance this won’t be possible, maybe that should be the deciding factor and just get the MU1.

@ghasley good point on the recession. I may end up needing live with whichever I choose first longer than anticipated given the pending recession, with fewer buyers out there. I think there will be more units for sale not only because some people overspent, but also simply because there will be fewer people buying.  Thankfully I will have the proceeds from the sale of my Innuos Zenith mk3 (2TB), PhoenixUSB Reclocker, Two Audioquest Diamond USB cords, and one Audioquest Hurricane Source cable to help offset this purchase.  That said I’ll need to buy a decent AES cable.

@ghasley 

@lordmelton Again, I have no affiliation with the seller of the MU! Nor should  @nyev purchase anything he isnt ready to purchase. With that said, your pricing data is a bit dated as well as the supply chain/availability is quite a bit different today. It is my understanding that availability is ZERO. You might want to call a dealer to see if the rumor aligns with the facts. Next up would be to determine what a MU1 with the 8tb ssd and double the ram at 8gb is worth.

I believe your comment should be addressed to @metaldetektor 

@nyev Why don't you phone or email the sellers and see if that helps.

They, of course have first hand experience and are not reviewers.

Good Luck!

@lordmelton , good idea! However one of the sellers is a dealer. They responded to my email (where I noted the products I was interested in) that “the N20 is inferior to the K50” (He was the seller of the K50). I suspect “inferior” is too strong a word but I do think the K50 may possibly be in a slightly higher class than the N20, at a higher price of course.  

@nyev The N20 and MU1 are more or less set and forget units whereas I believe the K50 may require driver downloads etc., like the Taiko.

I really don't want to get involved in setting dozens of parameters.

Buying used you won't lose money on either.

@nyev Since my final decision for a plug n play streamer was going to be the K50, obviously that would be my choice.

I decided on K50 based on several factors. While I don't find the k50 usb rendering to be among the best, neither is any Aurender offering, even the W20SE isn't up to the best. This usb issue in virtually every single box plug n play streamer is what led me to custom build. Compare top flight usb solutions such as Innuous Phoenix usb or JCAT USB XE, even Sonore OpticalRendu. Three I mention have very nice dedicated power supplies and best clocks. Check out the usb solutions in vast majority of plug n play, you won't see same level of power supply and in most cases, clock. Vast majority have usb clock and ps coming off motherboard, a few have half hearted attempts for ps, perhaps with nice clock.

So, assuming usb less than optimal in all three streamers mentioned above, other ports in each will be optimal. I like the K50 for it's AES/EBU, much easier optimization in both streamers and dac, and many nice reviews using this port. The other thing that sets K50 apart from the others, and was important to me, is the second ethernet port offered, something none of the others offered. This dedicated ethernet is dedicated OUT port for DIRECT connection to either dedicated outboard streamer which will take care of usb issue, or connect to streaming dac, makes it more versatile piece. One can eliminate the need to detour through a switch with this second port, this assumes most direct route is best.  I also like Antipodes take on ps, using both lps and smp based on particular needs. I'm Roon guy as well.

““the N20 is inferior to the K50”

@nyev 

You do realize dealer bias is in play since he sells K50. All of your choices under consideration are excellent choices. It’s going to comes which of these streamer sounds best within your system. If your prefer AES/EBU, N20, MU1 and Pulsar should be on top of your list. 

@lordmelton,

I do own a K50 and does not require user driver downloads.   Software updating is managed by Antipodes.  Antipodes sends updates overnight via network to units that are left On, and if unit is turned Off, will receive updates when left On overnight.  There is a web interface where users configure their units for server and player.  This interface also notifies users if software is available for update.  If a user has issue in the updating process or other issue, an online session with Antipodes can be booked with you for Antipodes to access your system with you via AnyDesk.  When I purchased my unit approximately 1-1/2 years ago, I had issues configuring Roon correctly for music storage and also had issues with Roon backup.   These were not Antipodes issues per se, but Antipodes resolved for me via online booking appointment.

@jerryg123 

I take dealer advice with a pinch of salt. The overzealous approach in shilling their product lines put to test when they are unable to provide a product for in-house demo. 

@lalitk I am totally against negative selling in the manor that @audiotroy goes about it. If you have valid, verifiable and repeatable testing data then provide it. Make your case. Video your blind tests and put them on YouTube like many other dealers and distributors do. Kevin Deal comes to mind in the early PL days. 
 

Do not make unverifiable blanket bs statements just to generate interest. I know this is a more sophisticated audience/clientele that is not buying into his hyperbole. 

He may be a very good dealer but I will never patronize is establishment. 

@lalitk , yeah of course I get that the dealer is biased :) I didn’t spell it out as it was obvious. Unfortunately I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice. I know there are some out there, based on accounts of others, but unfortunately I’ve yet to meet them. The best sort that I’ve encountered are the ones who are glad to help you and don’t seem motivated to make a sale. But these guys rarely give advice and when they do it’s biased to their gear.

Is the consensus here that AES will likely sound better than USB on all three devices? Need to budget for a good cable too. Of course the MU1 needs it to utilize its upsampling, and everyone seems to say it’s the best with the K50. What about the N20 - would AES connecting to my Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module likely be better than USB as well?

My local dealer can get demos of Shunyata and Audioquest cables. Thinking of trialing a Sigma and Diamond AES from those respective vendors. I’ve also heard great things about the Sablon AES cable which I believe is in the same price range.

At some point I’d want to try the Shunyata Omega and the Nordost Valhalla V2 cables, which I have heard great things about, and I expect these cables to both sound great in quite different manners. But I don’t want to spend that much on an AES cable quite yet. The Sigma/Diamond/Sablon is the class I’ll be looking at now.

@nyev 

Your post at 01-13-2023 at 12:19am discusses USB cable length.

Steve Nugent of Empircal Audio, aka Audioengr here on A'gon, used to discuss the USB cable length question as it was often brought up. He has been around for some time, but haven't seen him post in a while either. But he often noted that USB cables shorter than 1.5 meters caused reflections (I think also mentioned in this thread) on the cable and so it was best that either the cable be very very short or 1.5+ meters in length to avoid reflections. That is the best that I can explain it, but Steve is very well respected, and he also builds some very impressive audio gear. His forum "Empiral Audio Forum" can be found on Audio Circle and you can also look up his website of the same name. I assume you'll find much more clear and concise information on this topic there.

I've heard several of Steve's systems at the Newport show and they were really really good, so that makes me give significant weight to what he says.

I've been enjoying following along with this thread, some great posters providing a lot of insight in here.

One thing that may be of value is that if you might consider adding a master clock in the future, that may be a feature that you'd want your streamer/server to allow.

“I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice”
@nyev

I know it’s a rarity but they do exists. I have been very fortunate to work with few dealers that are audio enthusiast at heart. They are driven by their passion to help others in putting together great sounding systems.

Back to your query, Is AES better than USB? The answer lies within the implementation of these protocols between the two components, your DAC and streamer. IME, N20 implementation on all of its available outputs is simply stellar and uncompromising. And I expect the same from your Gryphon DAC. What you end up preferring is squarely depends on the quality of USB or AES cables. YES, the cable between the two components is going to matter a lot. I have extensively compared the USB & AES between my components and they both sounded stellar with N20 as a source.

My advice to you, don’t buy a component that limits your options. Why spend top dollars and limit yourself to AES and 24bit/192kHz file resolution (MU1) or K50, that may sound better with AES but not USB. At the end of the day, listen and access what’s sounds best in your system.

As far cabling goes, sky is the limit. Shunyata, Harmonix, Acrolink and Sablon gets my vote for AES. For USB, Network Acoustics USB III, TCHERNOV, Kimber Hybrid are the among best I’ve heard.

Here is another important consideration that doesn’t get mentioned here. Aurender is been at their game longer than anyone else. They offer seamless integration (via Conductor app) with some of the top DAC’s. This integration includes Master Clock sync and advanced Network like RAVENNA. Also eliminates the need for AES, SPDIF or USB cabling. MSB and Merging are two I know of, I am sure there are more.

@lalitk thanks for this.  Very helpful advice.  Looking forward to trying some cable options, whichever way I go.  

I guess all options have limitations of sorts.  Innuos has no AES (except new Pulse line which may signal a general change for future products), Aurender you can only use their Conductor app, Antipodes has superior AES implementation to USB, etc.  for me, the player app doesn’t matter as long as it doesn’t totally suck.  Yeah I love Roon and it’s radio mode but sound comes first for me.  I still find the Innuos Sense app is glitchy, with tracks sometimes not wanting to start when I play them or skip forward into the track.  But it still sounds better than Roon+Squeeze on my Innuos stuff so I use it.
 

Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB?  I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be.  Pretty sure I read a couple of posts a while back on other forums from guys who made the same jump to the N20 and found it was a big lift in sound.

“Aurender you can only use their Conductor app”

@nyev

As a long time user of Conductor app and ROON (18+ months), this would not be a source of your dissatisfaction with Aurender. The Conductor UI is not as layered or advance as ROON but it’s very intuitive and robust, both streaming from cloud based services or local files. Most importantly, conductor app renders your files faithfully, zero tempering with resolution. I’m not sure you read last paragraph in my previous post. That’s a very important consideration as it pretty much future proof your purchase should you choose to upgrade your DAC.

@lalitk , thanks and yes, I did read the last paragraph.  I guess I’m wasn’t really focusing on future-proofing as I have no desire to switch my Diablo and DAC module, which doesn’t allow for such integrations.  But it’s a good point as who knows what will happen years down the road…. Adding a master clock sounds intriguing but right now I want to reduce my devices and cabling!  And I just hate the fact that regardless of the device, premium power and signal cords ALWAYS make a difference, regardless of what the device is….  I suppose my objective now is to get the best sound I can with a one box player/server solution, with my integrated amp and DAC module.  But yeah your point is a good one still.

@pokey77 

Retirement is drawing near for Steve, and some of his tech he plans to pitch.