Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@antigrunge2 sounds like we are both after the same minimalist system (when it comes to the signal path).  I agree Roon offers a bunch of DSP but I keep it turned off.  I have used volume control when testing a DAC w/o VC and it wasn't bad, but generally VC is even locked out.    with it all turned off, roon and innuos both pass a naked signal through the streamer to the DAC.  --Jerry

@carlsbad2 said:

@antigrunge2 sounds like we are both after the same minimalist system (when it comes to the signal path). I agree Roon offers a bunch of DSP but I keep it turned off. I have used volume control when testing a DAC w/o VC and it wasn’t bad, but generally VC is even locked out. with it all turned off, roon and innuos both pass a naked signal through the streamer to the DAC.

I also love Roon and want to keep it. And I totally agree about the convenience and quality of Grimm MU1 running Roon Core and its upsampling.

But I do think Roon makes more ’noise’ even when all the processing, volume and multiple zones are turned off. I have been told it creates much more network traffic by pinging to make sure you have a subscription, providing metadata etc. Simply it makes more noise (I have been told).

When I had the XACT S1 on trial, it sounded amazing. Better easily than my Grimm running Roon. Marcin at JCAT says Roon can never sound as good as his streamer without Roon, My goal is to keep Roon, but optimize it to its best. While I love the Grimm, and have two systems, I have my eye on Aurender N30SA when it is a certified Roon endpoint, and of course eyeball the Taiko Extreme. Now that Taiko has announced their new better Olympus streamer, Extremes are showing up used for the same price as the new N30SA...

And I am now enjoying the MU1 with internal upgrade of its network cable, sounding even better. And I still stand by a great switch making even these SOTA machines sound better.

Even when you switch all ‘noisy’ functions off in Roon you still need to run it on a processor capable of fulfilling those functions; and that alone through additional power and processing generates noise.

It’s no secret that ROON needs more processing more to run its fancy and complexed software. IME, ROON is not the best choice when it comes to handling and passing of digital bits if you are comparing solely based on SQ. Many Innuous users already reported that Sense App sounds better than ROON (same setup). And my findings are just the same, Aurender’s Conductor app in direct comparison with ROON sounds much more sublime and faithful. 

Again, this is all very subjective and whether someone can hear or care to listen intently between ROON and competing proprietary Apps is also largely depends on one’s rest of the system and a choice of streamer / DAC. 

Hi @lalitk , I can not disagree.  But I want my cake and eat it too!  So if Aurender's streamer is a Roon endpoint, I would have both the convenience and attributes of Roon and the ability to use the Conductor for critical listening...if it sounds better :) This is key to many Taiko owners..ability to use both at a high level.

@fastfreight 

I am looking forward to ROON implementation in Aurender streamers. 

For those who have seen the comments on replacing the internal ethernet cable in the Grimm MU1, we now have a marvelous solution that has just been developed.  Kubala-Sosna has just finished their work on an internal ethernet/LAN cable for the marvelous Grimm MU1 unit.  The new cable will be from Kubala-Sosna's flagship Realization line.  This will be available from GTT Audio.

Update! After this intense journey, I did sell the Grimm, due to a short-term financial need. I kept my Tambaqui and am continuing to enjoy it immensely. I have to say it did make more of an impact, in my system, than the MU1 did. But all that means is that the Tambaqui is a bigger leap ahead of my prior Gryphon Diablo 300 (integrated amp) DAC module, than the Grimm MU1 was over my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker (also have the PhoenixNET Ethernet switch as well).

So. Do I miss the MU1? Yes and No. Sucks that I still need my extra box (USB reclocker), and the MU1 definitely had slightly better coherence and saturation. But going back to my Innuos setup, there IS that extra bit of air and expansiveness that I didn’t have with the Grimm. Upgrading the internal Ethernet cable as described above could have bumped up the MU1 in these areas, that would have been I interesting to test.  Of note, I also did throw a Synergistic Master Fuse in my Zenith. Interestingly I noted a wild, roller coaster breakin where the sound would swing from compressed and congested to hyper-revealing, obnoxiously so, every 1.5 days or so. The swings got smaller until it stabilized. Is the fuse better in the end? I’ll have to swap the generic fuse back in at some point to see, as after those wild swings it is hard to recall how the Innuos sounded prior to the Synergistic fuse.

So was the MU1 better than my starting point, in my system? Maybe, but by a hair. The big gain really was the addition of the Tambaqui.

I also upgraded to Audiovector R6 Arette speakers. Prior to my digital journey described in this thread, I had lugged my Gryphon Diablo 300 amp to multiple dealers in a different city, to test 8 high end speakers (from Magico, Sonus Faber, B&W, Paradigm, and Wilson), and had found none that really caught my interest. Eventually tested the Audiovector’s and everything suddenly clicked. Very happy with the results, especially with the Audioquest Dragon source cords I’m demoing now (wow).

Eventually will go back to try to rid myself of that darn reclocker box. Maybe a Statement Next Gen after all, lol….. In time. Right now I don’t feel it’s needed!

@nyev do you use Roon? And if so, have you tried the Tambaqui as a Roon end point, without the streamer?

@lalitk ditto. We’ll see if it happens. 

@audphile1 I’ve used Roon when I had the MU1, and still can with Innuos. But the Innuos Sense app sounds superior so I use that exclusively now.

I’ve not tried the Tambaqui as a Roon End Point, no. I guess to do that properly, I’d need another (third) good quality network cable which I do not have, to run from my Zenith Mk3 to the Tambaqui. Also, I’m not sure there would be any point for me to try that? I suppose it would eliminate the need for the USB reclocker, but using the Tambaqui as a Roon player would compromise its performance as a straight ahead DAC, no?

Out of curiosity, pull Ethernet cable from Innuous and connect it to Tambaqui. In Roon enable Tambaqui as end point. Give it a shot. Takes few mins. Whenever you have some time. If your innuos is the roon core, just connect the innuos with basic Ethernet cable. As long as the best cable is on the Mola. 

“Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?”

@nyev

I guess you finally have an answer to your query. Well, I hope you had fun throughout this exercise and gained a nice DAC in the process. IMHO, it’s unfair to compare a DAC modules to an outboard DAC much like an integrated network card in a DAC to an outboard Streamer. They may not sound bad but they just don’t stand a chance against a full blown component. At least that’s been my experience! 

@lalitk I agree, the outboard DAC has the advantage. But I think there is a caveat. Had I put basic level cables on the DAC I think the Tambaqui may still have won but I think it would have been REALLY close. I put an Audioquest Dragon XLR on it, and I now have a Dragon power cord on it that I have on loan. So in the end, yes my Tambaqui is far better, but when you include that level of cabling that is a big price tag. But I’m happy with the performance, even if this was probably a case where diminishing returns may have applied even more than it normally does.

For reference, the boost I had with the Tambaqui before I upgraded from a Hurricane to a Dragon power cord, may actually be smaller than the boost I’m hearing with three of my AQ Hurricane power cords upgraded to Dragons. Or maybe the Dragon on the Tambaqui is allowing it to reach its full potential. so many variables!

@nyev That's always the problem with 2 box dac/streamers.

You need a reference digital cable. Otherwise performance will suffer.

You also need more good power cords.

And if you change your Dragon XLR to Black Cat Tron, the sound will change.

The best reason for combining Dac and streamer relates to only using one clock (expensive if good), one box and one set of power cables obviating the need for digital cables which are highly inconsistent and system dependent. 
 

Conversely there is still a religious war going on on R2R vs upsampling dacs and streamer operating systems are anything but mature.

Roon’s solution of separating streamers and servers looks increasingly outdated, however as improvements in streaming technology increasingly obviate,the benefit of local libraries.

@antigrunge2 , I guess the combined DAC/Streamer/Server/High Precision clock approach hasn’t been contemplated on this thread really. As I’ve been focused on testing separate servers and outboard dedicated DACs.

That’s an interesting question - if I were to sell my Tambaqui, Innuos Server, and Innuos Reclocker (along with two premium Audioquest Dragon power cords and two Audioquest Diamond USB cables, that would likely pave the way to open up a path to a very high-end uber DAC/Server combo component. But ultimately I think this would be a compromise in SQ…. Maybe? Not sure!

Not considering going this route at present, but an interesting concept I’d not considered.

Hans Beekhuyzen, in his review of the MU1, or maybe the MU2, made an interesting point. In the Grimm units, Roon Core runs on an i3, which allows them to avoid a fan. But Roon Core on an i3 will be limited on library size and DSP functions, so Hans said he thinks you might still want to run your Roon Core on a separate box, probably in a different location. Which negates one of the nice things about the Grimm units. Can anyone speak from experience about this?

I’ve only got 40,000 tracks on my 2tb Grimm Audio MU1. Works perfectly. I do not utilize dsp, I’m not a fan of the sound.

@drubin I don’t think you can run two Roon cores on the same network, without confusing your endpoint (and I’m not aware of being able to disable the Roon core in the Grimm)

If memory serves, the Part Time Audiophile review of the Grimm mentioned this as an issue in their initial set-up (they needed to disconnect the Nucleus to use the Grimm)