Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@metaldetektor no worries whatsoever and I agree with your premise. Over the past several years, I have found high line car dealers and high line audio dealers far less flexible on discounting than we have all grown accustomed to. With those dealers with whom I have good relationships they share, almost sheepishly, that they simply can't discount much, if any, right now. It all depends on the product. For instance, the dealer might say "the backlog on speaker A is 1 year...I ordered these a year ago and I have a queue. I would jump you to the top of the list and sell these to you for X% off normally but I have a waitlist and the manufacturer has a queue and I just can't right now."

That seems to be the industry right now...its the parable that Yogi Berra so perfectly summarized so many years ago when discussing a particular restaurant "nobody goes there any more, its too crowded". The inverse is also true...if something is readily available these days, its likely not in high demand.

I understand Grimm is backlogged, Devore, Audio Note, Shindo, Leben...a number of others, especially hand built items...the combination the supply chain woes and the limited ability to ramp up output...thats what has spiked used prices/demand. I used to sell a piece of gear and then buy the next. Same with cars....do that today and you are going to have to like walking and singing because certain cars and audio gear just arent available, they are backlogged.

@metaldetektor, I personally didn’t see how your post could have implied you were affiliated with any sellers - all good from my perspective.

And, I think your assessment that the used (and scratched) MU1 list price seems a little high is valid, despite the fact that it has a memory and ssd upgrade.  List prices are easy to figure out.  If I’m not mistaken, the N20 lists for $2k more than the MU1 and yet I paid less for my used mint condition N20.  Which I think was priced fairly for a mint condition unit used for only two months.

Update: rather than buying an AES/EBU cable outright to try with my Aurender N20 and Gryphon Diablo DAC and compare with the USB interface, my dealer confirmed they can get a demo Audioquest Diamond AES cable sent to me to try.  This will make my comparison with Innuos USB (and Aurender USB too) more apples to apples, since I currently am using two Audioquest Diamond USB cables with my Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB.

My incoming Aurender N20 just took off from Chicago/O’Hare and is currently cruising at 35,000ft.

My new N20 arrived.  Plugged it in and connected it.  The unit is still physically cold.  Played a few tracks.  Out of respect for both brands (coming from an Innuos Zenith Mk3 plus PhoenixUSB Reclocker) I will wait to comment publicly on what I hear until I’ve run it overnight.  But for now I’ll say two things:

1) I can’t believe how a different music server can sound so different. And,

2) The N20 sounds very, very nice.

My demo AES cable (Audioquest Diamond) is probably arriving in a week.  When it does, I’ll compare it versus USB (also using an Audioquest Diamond).  I am also going to see if my Innuos PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender USB output, which would imply Innuos does USB better.  But not really a fair comparison as Innuos would have the advantage of the separate box and power supply.

Okay I’ll say one more thing for now.  I REALLY want to try the Grimm MU1 and the Antipodes K50 as well, and my plan was to buy and sell each of them used so I could live with each for a while and really get to know what I like best.  But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20.  I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while.

But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20.  I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while

An impressive start for the Aurender. I’m very curious as to how the Innuos and Aurender “house sound/signatures “ contrast. I’m looking forward to further comments/listening impressions.

Charles 

I want to say more now, but I just know how much things can change through warmup!  The seller of the N20 had the unit all boxed up for weeks after using it for only a month or two.  I think it needs at least 12 hours or so of run time.  Also I should ask the seller how many hours he broke it in.  Not going to say the Aurender is “better”, because at this point there are a few things the Innuos does better, and a few things the Aurender does better.  But that said I am really liking the sound of the Aurender.  I’ve also snuck a quick test adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to the N20 output.  Sound changed less than I expected, but it changed.  Hard to say at this point whether I prefer with or without the reclocker.  It’s different!  Things will become more apparent after some warmup/breakin.

After decades of having experience with breakin/warmup time with components, inevitably with every new piece I try my mind tries to convince myself that breakin/warmup won’t happen in this instance, and in every case but once I’ve been proven wrong (I didn’t notice any breakin effect with my Gryphon amp). The Aurender N20 has changed a lot already. Very glad I resisted the urge to comment on the sonics at first, as it’s much better now. It was doing some great things at first but the few weak areas I noticed during a very brief initial test are no longer an issue.

I should also emphasize this is not a fair face off between Innuos and Aurender.  The Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker’s cost is lower than the Aurender N20. I expect Innuos would prefer if I was comparing a Statement (but not the new one with upgraded power supply which is double-uber expensive).  Statement was a bit more than I wanted to spend and there aren’t any used however.

“But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20”

@nyev

As a long time Aurender user, my suggestion would be to not let N20 go before you had a chance to compare it with MU1 and K50.

Once N20 settles in your system, you will hear clearly that it excels in terms of low frequency extension and slam. You will also notice an edge in terms of perceived detail. N20 doesn’t quite smear or soften the top end details as Innuos. In contrast, Innuos is little more gentle on top end. I found N20 to be ultra detailed without being etched or forward. 

You are in phase 1 of your audition, take your time. Phase 2 would be optimizing the N20 with cabling, isolation and after-market fuse. There is a grounding lug on N20 (more on that later). For now just listen and compare :-)

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

@lalitk

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

I am in agreement 100 %. Personal preference is the dominant determinant. All of the really fine components have trade off strengths and weaknesses. Listeners inevitably pick and choose.

Charles

While I recognize that the OP has purchased a pre-owned Aurender for trial, another Grimm user asked that I post (repost) my comments from another thread regarding the fabulous new Network Acoustics Muon Pro streaming system and my experience with it and the Grimm MU1. I had commented earlier in this thread my appreciation for the Muon streaming system when I owned an Innuos Zenith and my bewilderment that the Muon system didn’t seem to enhance the streaming experience with the Grimm.

Yeah it sounds pretty fantastic with the Muon Pro streaming system and I thought it sounded fantastic before, but I'm trying to get my arms around what is really happening. Some out there might scream confirmation bias...but they would be wrong. I have no skin in the game and further, the cost of these, while not insignificant to many, is immaterial to me. The Network Acoustics Muon Pro made a HUGE difference to an already exceptional presentation provided by my Grimm Audio MU1 Server/Streamer. Wow, just WOW.

From router to switch I have swapped in 3 different ethernet cables (AQ Vodka, Totaldac ethernet cable/filter, Network Acoustics Muon ethernet cable) and the Network Acoustics Muon cable sounds more effortless and "alive". Its probably my imagination but that's how it settled for me.

From my Network Acoustics Rubicon switch into my Grimm Audio MU1 server/streamer I tried the same three ethernet cables by themselves and I really couldn't tell them apart.

I then tried the same three cables with the Network Acoustics Muon filter and same result, no discernable difference. Now with my previous Innuos Zenith Mk3 server, the Muon filter/Muon cable made a material positive difference. As I've stated before, I figured the Grimm just didn't need the help or, put another way, I assumed the Grimm "solved" many/most of the same issues that the Muon streaming system addressed.

Next up, I inserted the new Network Acoustics Muon Pro ethernet cable and Muon Pro filter in between my Rubicon switch and Grimm MU1 server/streamer and ... SNAP! ... it was almost a component level positive change. Unreal.  So, the dilemma...and the question: why does ANY of this stuff make a difference? LOL. It does make a material difference but WHY?!?!?

The Grimm (and many other products of a similar nature) loads the entire song (or album) into its memory and then, in the case of the Grimm, it does its magic to the file and plays it back to my dac via AES/EBU. I can disconnect the ethernet cable from the Grimm "on the fly", then "hot swap" to the next cable and the music never stops playing. I can then queue up a new track, it travels through the Muon Pro system into the Grimm's memory so that I can A - B in a reasonably controlled way.

I hear what I hear and I would prefer the previous outcome with the other cables: no material difference....but there IS a material positive difference...but why? Many servers are optimized for 100mbps and it appears the Grimm and the new Muon Pro are both optimized for a Gigabit. Whatever the reason, the Muon Pro was developed for studio use and it has made an amazing difference. 

Aurender N20 is quite a bit more expensive than Innuos Zenith, even if you add the cost for USB reclocker. A better comparison would have been with N10. FWIW, I tried the N10 last year and did not find the Innuos Zenith MK3 lacking in any way. It was a coin flip and I only went with Zenith due to Roon support. Hopefully, someone can compare the N20 with Statement for a more fair assessment.

Okay, after some good warmup time, here are my initial thoughts. My Innuos setup and the N20 both excel in different areas!

As stated above I am in the earliest phase of assessment. So, my thoughts are sure to evolve. I think it’s pretty typical to immediately notice the good things for any new piece, but the less good things can require some soak time living with it for an extended period before they come out. So I may be more attuned to any slight differences in my Innuos setup having lived with it for some time. And currently I’m only comparing USB before my AES demo cable arrives (hopefully soon).

One note on the relative fairness of this “fight” - while the N20 costs more than my prior Innuos setup, with the Innuos Statement the tables would be turned and the Statement costs a fair bit more than the N20. Not that pricing is the be all and end all, but it’s sort of like how boxers have a “reach” advantage/disadvantage vs opponents. In my case the N20 has the advantage.

Overall, I’m relieved I hear a big difference. I would have been disappointed but not surprised had I not heard much of a difference. But I do! One big caveat is that I think my preferred player is system dependent, and that my preference would likely have been different in my old system before my upgrades last year.

Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB reclocker :

• Someone in another forum had said Innuos “is the closest thing to a concert hall experience”. That one note from one individual stood out. Because I always thought my system sounded like a concert hall, where the listener is set back from the performers. I always found the vocals to be set back in the 3D mix of instruments. I wasn’t sure how I felt about this effect - with some music it was brilliant. I always thought that the effect was due to my speakers but that one person’s comment stuck out for me. Sure enough, with the N20, this effect disappeared and the music is more “front row” now. Currently I’m preferring this effect but it could be just as a novelty.
• My Innuos setup has better mid and high frequency resolution. There is no question. I can hear air, breath, and raspiness come through with vocals much clearer with Innuos. Maybe this difference will change as my N20 warms up more.
• My Innuos setup has a bigger front to back soundstage. I’m not sure I actually like that fact, as currently I’m enjoying the immediacy of the Aurender.
• The Innuos setup has bigger (but not better) bass, in terms of going lower! I’m not certain this would be true if I measured it, but the way bass is presented between the two, that’s what my ears hear. Reserve judgement until you see the N20 counterpoint on bass below.

Aurender N20

• Number one biggest thing I notice is that everything is smoother and with less edge across all frequency bands. Very inviting.
• To use crutch-words: “organic”, “good musical flow”, “natural”, vs my prior Innuos setup. This is the one that is harder to put into words. Overall I can get into the music easier and it takes me further away from focusing on HiFi pyrotechnics. Not literal pyrotechnics thank goodness. It’s a simpler sound, more essential. Sorry if these aren’t descriptive enough as I’m describing the effect on me rather than the attribute of the sound…
• Slightly more engaging sound - all frequencies delivered with a bit more energy/conviction (but still smoother than the Innuos setup). This leads to more “snap” to the music, with better PRAT. The effect on me is that it seems like the music is playing faster even though it’s not.
• Front to back soundstage is not as deep - vocals forward, presented more evenly (and I think, naturally) with other instruments. Don’t get me wrong the soundstage is still impressively deep. The width I think is the same, but one thing is that the Innuos has more crispness to electric guitars on the very edge of the stage whereas the Aurender has more meat/fleshiness.
• While the Aurender seems to have less overall bass (subjectively speaking), the bass is more satisfying and I don’t feel like I am missing anything. The bass is more tuneful and with more rhythm. It integrates better with percussion because of this. I think this leads to delivery of music as more of a cohesive whole.

Overall I am currently enjoying the Aurender more, but remember it’s the new piece! Which always has the initial advantage over the old piece due to human bias. I’m sure I’ll uncover nits with time. Maybe I’ll start missing the better resolution of the Innuos. The Aurender sounds less fussy and more simplistic, and is more “down to basics” and getting all that right. The Innuos is more about doing all of the range of things audiophiles talk about at a more extreme level, in terms of ultimate resolution and depth of soundstage. Again I cannot say that I prefer one brand over the other, this is just a comparison of the two particular setups from each brand. Finally, I’ll say this: my system has become very, very revealing after my upgrades last year. Possibly/probably too revealing as my system has become ultra finicky with respect to speaker positioning, quality of power, etc. Had I not applied these upgrades and with a less revealing system, I think I may have preferred the Innuos setup as it might have squeezed some more detail out of my less revealing system. The Aurender may have been a tad too smooth before. Takeaway is stating the obvious - my preference is almost surely system dependent.

​

@ghasley 

You have affirmed what I pretty much suspected. The Network Acoustics Muon filtering system is the real deal. It will be a part of my upcoming audio streaming system. Thanks for sharing your latest listening experiences.

Charles 

Regarding network switches, I do have the Innuos PhoenixNet in the chain with the Aurender, as I did with the prior Innuos gear. I find it helps a lot - ironically it brings the Innuos setup slightly in the direction of the N20’s sound. Why do these things help? Who knows. But I think it has to do with reducing noise introduced in the chain that ends up on your speakers. Every cable in our systems will introduce some level of noise, and putting in mitigations for that have an additive effect on what ends up playing on your speakers.

Or as I tell my non audiophile friends when they ask what that box does: “It cleans the filthy internet so my stereo sounds better”. Might as well lean into the crazy that goes with being an audiophile.

My PhoenixNET is fed by a 50ft cable from a generic Ethernet switch in my house’s smart panel downstairs. I’ve wondered what might happen if I were to replace the Dlink Ethernet switch in my smart panel with a second PhoenixNET, so the PhoenixNET at my stereo is starting with an already “clean” signal. Not something I’m planning on trying, but…

@nyev Congratulations on your N20. Reading between the lines it sounds to me as if the N20 is sounding more unforced and natural.

The N20’s signal is un-tampered with, not oversampled or clocked but upsampling is available on SPDIF outputs.

However I digress. Let the N20 run in for a week or so, you can play an internet radio station 24/7 when you’re not listening.

One thing is for sure it won’t sound any worse than it does now...lol

As @lalitk advised there are many stages to achieve what the N20 is truly capable of, so take your time and plan what you would like to do next.

The "X factor" of course is getting a master clock, but not yet.

Think maybe firstly your streaming setup may need some improvement but before you do that download your favourite files onto the N20 SSD and see what SQ you are getting.

Anyway well done and looking forward to more reports.

@lordmelton yes you’ve read between the lines correctly. Will let it run for a week and see. I also need to go back to my old setup for a few days to validate my findings, down the road. I find my perceptions sometimes change after this step. An example is when I tested the Nordost Valhalla 2 cables over my Audioquest Diamond cables. At first I was immediately ready to shell out for the new pricy cables. “Component level upgrade” and all that. But after a few days, and going back to the Diamonds later, I realized the jump in performance wasn’t as large as I had initially perceived. Certainly not a component level jump, at a component-level price! So I didn’t proceed.

Back to the Master Clock concept - isn’t that only of value if you have a DAC that allows for a clock input, so all your digital devices are using the same clock? Or does this benefit the N20 in isolation? I don’t think a stand-alone DAC is in the cards anytime soon.

Update:  I also don’t think a Master Clock is in the cards anytime soon given the price lol!!!  The Aurender MC20 I think costs more than all network players out there, aside from one (Taiko).

This has been a very interesting thread so far.

As several others have mentioned, letting the N20 run for a week would be a good idea. I'll go on record that most likely it'll need that or more given the fact it really hasn't been played that much by the prior owner. Let me share a story with you I'm living through now.

I've been working a bit on Network optimization. I have a Shunyata Hydra 6 power conditioner that I'm not using and that had been in two systems over the course of approximately 15 years. I recently replaced the Hydra with a much better power conditioner in my main system and so it was free. The Hydra has been sitting for a year in my office and I finally decided to use it in my Network; the Hydra 6 now powers my router, ER + LPS, fiber endpoint coming into the house, and a computer + monitor and powered speakers. Sound Cliffnotes: upon listening to my system, the sound was much worse with the Hydra 6 than with the $25 power strip that had been there. It took 10 days before the sound started to open up and it was changing a little each day for the better. It took another five days until it really started on song and my system has now never sounded better, but I think this burnin/settling has not fully finished yet. I share this with you because I thought I shouldn't really have any or just a little burnin/settling since the Hydra has literally 15 years of use on it. I found that to be totally untrue. So my advice is to just give the N20 time, I bet you'll get much more out of it. I've had an N10 for four years and have had my eye on the N20, so I'm very interested in your findings. Have fun while doing all this!

Thanks for sharing @pokey77 , good story! And yes I’m totally with the general advice that things will likely change with a week or more of run in.

One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in. Not sure if that is specific to the K50, but I’ve heard similar accounts from owners of the new Innuos Statement Next Gen. Apparently it is the power supply that needs this breakin the most.

The best thing so far about thenN20 is that some of the things I found to be less desirable about my system’s sonics that I had attributed to my speakers are resolved now (sorry speakers I love you again….). That was a nice surprise. The question is whether, over time, I’ll notice other less desired elements, simply from getting attuned to the sound more!

The other wildcard as mentioned is the demo AES cable that is en route. Aurender’s marketing and some on this thread had suggested that the AES cable will sound superior, so it may or may not be a game changer. Aurender’s marketing language suggests the advantage of their high precision clock with AES will drive the DAC and be better than USB.

@nyev 

The newer power conditioner I have took four weeks until the sound went from analytical to musical. And week five brought about a good bit more improvement as well. I was wondering if I'd have to try a different power conditioner, but it all worked out, but 5+ weeks seemed like a long time to me! So I get your comments on the K50 for sure.

FYI - I'm using Nordost Heimdal 2 AES and I also tried the equivalent Heimdal 2 USB and I thought AES was ever so slightly better. And it didn't hurt that the cable was shorter so less mess behind the rack. -I've read a lot good about Jorma and I may try better AES cables in the future. I think Lalitk probably knows some good options.

I’m really interested in getting my hands on that AES cable after reading Aurender’s marketing pitch on how much better it is than USB. Which I know is just marketing.

It’s clearly aimed at differentiating from Innuos who only do USB - except for the fact that their brand new Pulse products support AES, and my guess is all their new products will as well.

As others have said what matters is which interface they’ve invested in. But here’s the thing - if Aurender has invested in making AES good such that they recommend it over their USB interface, and the USB interface sounds good, then how much better will AES be? I’ve seen countless accounts of AES being far better than USB on the Antipodes K50, but I’ve not seen this as widely mentioned for Aurender.  Yet it seems Aurender and Antipodes are aligned on prioritizing AES.  Aurender claims:

Ultra-High-Quality SPDIF and AES/EBU Digital Audio Outputs

The N20’s AES/EBU, BNC, Coaxial, and Optical outputs provide a superior musical presentation with some DACs due to the superior clock and oscillator. As opposed to asynchronous USB connections, where the DAC pulls packets of information from the player, N20’s SPDIF audio outputs push the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. With a clock this precise, once heard, you’ll want to use it.

@nyev reading your post about the PhoenixNet, bear in mind that it is a 100Mb/s device, so it would limit the network speed of your whole house if you put a second one in where you were pondering. We now know that a lot of streaming devices sound better running on a 1Gb/s connection speed, which the PhoenixNet cannot do.

@richtruss , yeah I wouldn’t even have enough ports for the rest of my house with the PhoenixNET. And unfortunately, 100 mega-quality-bits doesn’t cut it for other applications. In my fantasy that I’ll unlikely try, I’d connect the second PhoenixNET to my whole-house switch in the smart panel. The PhoenixNET would only have the one audio line coming out of it.

Funnily enough, I just saw a post in another forum that said someone suggested adding a second PhoenixNET to their system and they claimed it was transformative. They also added a PhoenixUSB though. Who knows. Was just a thought.

@nyev You really don't need to spend many thousands on a clock. There are plenty of Chinese ones on Ebay and After Dark from Hong Kong sell decent clocks.

However a very high quality clock cable is vital, this will cost $2k+ and should be 75 Ohm rated for the N20 and not more than 1M.

The N20 will work great with a clock connected directly to it, don't worry about getting a DAC with a clock input.

Yes, Aurender say the SPDIF/AES outputs are best but this will all depend on your DAC.

USB offers greater resolution and DSD and besides that in my system the soundstage is much bigger with USB. Again though the N20 only upsamples using SPDIF/AES.

Anyway no crime in using both at the same time and switching between them.

Yes, Aurender say the SPDIF/AES outputs are best but this will all depend on your DAC.

@lordmelton 

USB offers greater resolution and DSD and besides that in my system the soundstage is much bigger with USB. Again though the N20 only upsamples using SPDIF/AES.

Anyway no crime in using both at the same time and switching between them.

Yes, it will depend which input  receiver of the DAC has been optimized. With regard to the digital source it’s clear that Aurender decided to optimize their AES/EBU pathway. Switching between the input options will tell the story.

Charles

“Which I know is just marketing.”
@nyev

I beg to differ. AES/SPDIF implementation is much more complexed than USB where data packets are simply being pushed to a DAC for all the heavy lifting. Aurender clearly advocates SOTA performance for end users through their AES/SPDIF output by controlling the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. There is only so much one can do with USB outputs in a streamer as the outcome will greatly vary by USB implementation in your DAC. Aurender’s dedicated USB Audio output is physically and electrically isolated from the noise-generating CPU board to minimize noise in the sensitive audio interconnect. And from what I’ve read, your DAC module is pretty darn good with handling incoming data faithfully and meticulously. These particular features among others in your DAC implementation stood out to me,

“Super-Capacitor (12.5 Farad!) power supply for USB module - acts like a true battery supply”

“Temperature-compensated, ultra-low jitter crystal oscillator with better than 5 parts per million accuracy”

As I pointed out earlier, each system is unique. I enjoyed my time with N20 paired with EMM Labs DA2 DAC. But when I heard N20 with an external 10MHz clock, my jaw simply dropped. A different beast altogether with external clock! It became clear to me why Aurender chose to include external clock input with their top 3 models. In my opinion, when it comes to pushing the limits of what’s possible in digital realm, Aurender is way ahead of the curve. You may not think about pursuing external clock at this time but that’s something you should keep in mind before settling down with a streamer of your choice. 

@nyev Very nice, detailed comparison. My only question is, can there be too much detail, transparency? Maximum detail and transparency has always been my goal in audio reproduction, while there have been periods of times where that added D/T wasn't positive, with tuning and tweaking have usually been able to get back to neutral and/or natural. Based on your comparisons, think I'd enjoy the Innuos sound over Aurender. Still, sounds like you may need more time with Aurender, changes in our perceptions can happen over longer terms, this along with component burn in and tweaking.

As for all network items, I'm also beginning to see more of this daisy chaining with various network devices, and I wonder about the changes 1gb capable items bring to table. I have recently introduced some 1gb capable devices and the change has been good, higher speed ISP service has also been a positive. I'm thinking of upping my service to 1gb since going from 300 to 500gb was so positive.

@lalitk ​​@lordmelton , thanks for the tips on the master clock.  I’m intrigued.  But I also worry that I’ll feel like I’ll be repeating the experience of adding the USB reclocker, where I went “yeah, big difference.  But I wish I just went with one single box that had this level of performance.”

If I were to go for the master clock I’d worry I’d keep upgrading and end up with a taiko extreme or something, lol….

@sns , I wholeheartedly agree that you and others may prefer the Innuos. It’s even possible I may shift back to preferring the Innuos after some time. They just sound SO different, so there is some degree of novelty bias at play here I’m sure.

While I would still characterize what I hear just as I described, I have to say how I feel about those differences has changed slightly, having listened to a wider scope of music on the N20. On some tracks, I’m missing the Innuos setup. What am I missing? Mid and upper transparency, higher highs, lower lows. The N20’s more “focus on the basics” approach sounds superb on a lot of material and is a bit of a relief, but on other material it can sound a bit flat and unengaging.

Can’t recall who said the N20 will do “razor edged guitar solos” (and that the MU1 wouldn’t), but I actually find the N20 tones down guitar solos quite a bit in comparison with the Innuos setup where guitar solos leap out at you.

Innuos Zenith Mk2 + PhoenixUSB - expansive sound, focus on full frequency range, transparency, and deep soundstage.

Aurender - organic, relaxed, denser upper bass and mid bass with more energetic presentation in these specific areas, fleshy vocals.

A bit concerned that after testing the Aurender I will want a blend of what Innuos does best and what Aurender does best - with none of the bad parts of either! At this point, I’m actually quite surprised at the lower resolution of the N20, which I never would have noticed if I hadn’t had the experience with there Innuos setup.

I would not go so far as to say one is more “pure” than the other without manipulating the source. Not saying that’s not true, just that I don’t know.

The AES cable with the N20 may change everything, when I receive it. We’ll see. Also, regarding burnin, the Statement Next Gen and the K50 are known to have point-in-time “step” increases in performance after MONTHS of use, with no change in between these points. People even report a temporary decline in the Statement Next Gen just before the final bump up to stabilizing on the max performance. Not sure if any of this applies to the N20. For what it’s worth, I’ve only noticed a change over the first few hours of use; it’s sounded the same since then so far.

Very glad I took this approach to testing network players. I’m in no hurry to return a demo to a shop and say I’m not interested. I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

One thing I forgot to mention - the N20 throws the soundstage so differently that I actually had to adjust my speaker positions! Vocals were sounding a bit off on some tracks, and I found that toeing my speakers inwards, much further than my Innuos setup prefers, was required to fix the slight soundstage issues.

Just realized that the differences I’ve observed between the Innuos and Aurender setups I tested are not dissimilar to the differences that HiFi Advice has noted between the MU1 and K50 (for followup comments after revisions from both companies).  Interesting…

I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

My suspicion is continued burning-in and switching to the AES connection path is only going to improve the Aurender N20 from its already impressive initial presentation.

Charles

@nyev The master clock is for later consideration but it's absolutely essential for realising the full performance of the N20.

In the meantime why don't you try inputting one of your Dragon PCs into the N20 and disabling the powerline in your AQ USB cable.

At this stage I would only listen to tracks on your SSD and try the N20 in critical listening mode.

If you do some streaming don't forget to switch MQA on, if you listen to Tidal, the N20 will give you the first unfold, 96KHz.

@lordmelton, not sure if it matters but my Dragons are both the high current versions (powering my amp and Torus). I am very familiar with the differences between the Hurricane and the Dragon, at least for my amp. The Hurricane is actually a pretty good cord as well. For me the Hurricane really just had less stage depth and a slightly elevated “glow” in the lowest frequencies, vs the Dragon. I’m also not sure how to disable the power on my AQ Diamond USB cord, without ruining it. In theory it won’t help, as my Gryphon DAC features a supercap acting as a battery to provide clean and stable power for USB.

For now I’m just letting it run and checking in once in a while. The real party begins when my demo AES cable shows up. Seems Aurender really pushes AES over USB, like Antipodes. It’s one of the first points on the features list on its web page. And MU1 but that’s different because of the FPGA oversampling. I’ll do way more intensive critical listening when my demo AES arrives. Trying to be patient as I figure the N20 needs some continued run time. In all likelihood though, the prior owner almost certainly must of run it over 200 hours in the two months he had it on his rack.

So far, I have solutions from Innuos and Aurender - both are truly great in different ways from one another, and both have drawbacks that are also different from one another! The more I listen to one the more respect I have for the other! I’ve never experienced an audition quite like this! Makes me wonder if the K50 or the MU1 might be the goldilocks solution. But yeah, the AES cable with the N20 should stir the pot. The fact that the N20 is helping spotlight what the Innuos does well is making me consider the Statement (not the next-Gen, too pricey). Not really a fan of the two-box solution. And, I feel like new models could possibly be around the corner? Possibly with AES support as the Pulse series has? Who knows. Probably a year or two still. Also, I have a hunch that putting the listener further back from the performers may be a “house sound” sort of thing for Innuos. Which is actually quite good. But, I think I’m looking for more of a front row experience. The Aurender does that. I’ve also read that the Antipodes really does that - puts you where the performers are and the soundstage envelopes around you. Moreso than the MU1. But all that is just a few common experiences I’ve read on HiFi Advice and also from some owners comments.

https://community.octoprint.org/t/put-tape-on-the-5v-pin-why-and-how/13574

I know it talks about printers but disregard that. Put the electrical tape on both ends of the +5v pins. Enjoy! You won't damage anything. If it doesn't work your DAC needs the powerline. No harm done.

Thanks for the tip, but I am paranoid about keeping my contact surfaces of my cables pristine! I’d prefer not to gum up the contacts with tape. I’ve actually purchased some Deoxit G100L to apply to all of my plugs and connectors, on the advice of some trusted professionals in the industry (and verifying that every enthusiast who uses it swears by it). We’ll see, it hasn’t arrived yet.

I read an unsubstantiated post on this forum that claims the N200 USB circuit is identical to the N20’s USB circuit. If true that would, in all probability but not certainly, put the N20’s USB performance on par with the Innuos Zenith, without the PhoenixUSB Reclocker. It stands to reason given that Aurender seems to nudge people towards AES which employs the high precision clock. I know every DAC is different though and in some cases USB may not be better. I’ll give the AES a go, give it a few weeks (I’ve read accounts for other devices that if AES hasn’t been used, it’s circuits must be burned in even if the rest of the unit is burned in) and decide either to list my Innuos boxes or the N20, whichever is in the lead, so I can try the next one.

I did throw some Herbie’s Tenderfeet under the N20. Made a huge improvement in coherence and the vertical size of the stage. But, they do that for all components you stick them under! I just expect and demand that effect when I use them now. You do need to be experiment with placement, as different placements can cause sound imbalances, rather amazingly.

Haven’t mentioned it yet but Conductor is rather good. Better be since it’s the only option! Works well; no glitchiness.

Oh and here is a weird thing - removing the PhoenixNET from the chain and plugging the N20 direct to the wall with an Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable sounds best with the N20. Mid and top end opened up, just slightly. I did find with my Innuos chain the PhoenixNET added smoothness and relaxed things, so I guess with the N20 it is already relaxed and smooth (to my ears and in my system) and going further in this sonic direction is overdoing it.

Back to the master clock, I hear what you are saying and totally believe you in regard to the results, and if I tried one I’d probably want one. But I just don’t want an added box to my digital chain, just as I don’t want my reclocker as a separate box. Want to keep things simple, and reduce my cabling.  If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end, it would nevertheless be nice to have the master clock option in case I feel differently in the future.

“If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end”

@nyev 

If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. 

This all helps to confirm that dac and streamer is best perceived as a package deal, kind of like speakers and amps. Match best output or rendering scheme on streamer output to optimal input on dac, this should result in optimal sound quality. Doing this along with optimizing network and you're done! The network should be the most complex issue to solve, so many reportedly excellent choices.

My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don't make clear which port is optimal. I think it pretty clear with usb inputs, generally going to be XMOS or Amanero board, may be some proprietary solution, generally going to be nice filtering, dedicated power supply, quality clock. Not so clear what makes SPDIF or I2S optimized on dacs? Here's some interesting info found on that special forum some love to hate, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/study-is-i%C2%B2s-interface-better-for-dacs-than-s-pdif-or-usb.7105/

“My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don’t make clear which port is optimal. ”

@sns

Most manufacturers of high quality DAC’s takes pride in laying out how each port is optimized for us to make an informed choice. One fine example would be AQUA and there are many more…..

@lalitk This is good information, but too many dac manufacturers don't mention anything special with inputs other than usb, seems they always mention usb optimization, not enough with others. Presume these dac manufacturers want to be all things for all people, don't want to limit sales.

Chord is another company that mentions superior input, in their case optical. The issue some have with inputs other than usb is limitation on up,over sampling acceptance.

I for one am not crazy about goop on connectors. I have tried some of the Goop that allegedly enhance the audio experience and end up cleaning it off and going back with Stabilant 22. This is under the advice of EE and Avionics Techs in the private and Military space.

When it comes to DAC I am with @lalitk on using the prioritized inputs of the mfr. I use the recommended USB on my LessLoss EE DAC. RCA unbalanced output is straight off the R2R Ladder. 

“If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.”

@lalitk yes, I was thinking about that.  My plan is to see how the first AES cable goes and see how much difference it makes, before moving to a different brand.  Unfortunately my dealer (only dealer in town) doesn’t like shipping anything unless it’s not a sale.  For some reason, they make an exception for Audioquest cables.  They said something about them making shipping easier, and Audioquest pays for shipping. And that not all cable companies do.  I offered to pay shipping for demos, but they didn’t like that approach for some reason.   I will need to call around for other cables.  Not that it means anything but I am quite familiar with the difference between the AQ Diamond USB and a small handful of other brands of USB cables. It’s also a fairly resolving cable with a good frequency range that doesn’t really have much of it’s own character at all.  It doesn’t call attention to itself.  It’s not what I call liquid or organic.  It lets the character of surrounding components come through unaltered.  Not sure if those qualities apply to the AES version as well.

That said, someone else mentioned that there was not as much of a variance in AES cables as there is in USB.  But IF the AQ cable doesn’t pull the N20 clearly ahead of my Innuos gear (I’d say it’s a tie when using USB, they are both great at different things), then I’ll source more cable demos.

@nyev The Cable Company lending library has a multitude of cables available for demos, used them for years for all manner of cable shootouts. I agree with your characterization AQ Diamond, don't feel the need to replace this usb cable.

Curious as to no suggestion or comparisons to Aqua LinQ

@sns The Cable Co doesn’t lend to Canada unfortunately.  

“Curious as to no suggestion or comparisons to Aqua LinQ”

@rowlocktrysail 

Linq is a two box solution…needs an external server to run ROON or HQPlayer. OP is looking for a one box, no frill streamer or server/renderer. 

@lalitk after your post I decided to reach out to Sablon.  They have a 28 day return policy (from shipping though, so not much time), on anything that is more standard.  Hopefully their AES cable is standard.  That way, I can try the Sablon and also the Audioquest Diamond AES cable.  Whichever is best, I will keep regardless of how I feel about the N20 and my existing Innuos gear in the end.  I will need an AES cable for my eventual test of the K50 and MU1.

@nyev

Good call! Sablon makes good sounding cable. I’ve heard nothing but high praises, especially their ethernet cables. 

While waiting for my AES cable(s) I am deliberating on which server to try next.  While I could in theory go and buy one of the used K50’s for sale, I am forcing myself to be patient!  On the other hand there may be none available when I am ready to try one.  But I want to let the N20 have all my focus first.  And I truly don’t know at this point which will be leaving first - the Innuos boxes or the N20.  I can say with confidence at this point however that if I could only use USB, I’d keep the Innuos for it’s higher bandwidth (higher highs with more transparency and lower lows).  But there is a high probability the AES cable may change that with the N20 pulling ahead.  Can’t wait to find out.  Getting impatient!

“Getting impatient!”

@nyev

I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊

“One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in.”

@lalitk

“I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊”

I know, right? I thought of that and it’s one of the advantages of springing for a used one rather than going for a month long trial of a new one!  I was even telling myself that is why I should buy one now, so it can be running while I am focusing on the N20!

The reason I’m impatient is that I think this has been long enough to conclude that the N20’s USB won’t cut it for me, regardless of the fact that it does some things very, very well, and I don’t know when the AES cable will arrive. My focus will return to the N20 IF the performance improves as expected with the AES cable. Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change how I feel which is why I’m impatient :)

I think the N20 has opened up ever so slightly more as I’ve been running it constantly, but if it has, it is very, very subtle. Pretty sure the prior owner must have done the burnin.