@lalitk I agree, the outboard DAC has the advantage. But I think there is a caveat. Had I put basic level cables on the DAC I think the Tambaqui may still have won but I think it would have been REALLY close. I put an Audioquest Dragon XLR on it, and I now have a Dragon power cord on it that I have on loan. So in the end, yes my Tambaqui is far better, but when you include that level of cabling that is a big price tag. But I’m happy with the performance, even if this was probably a case where diminishing returns may have applied even more than it normally does.
For reference, the boost I had with the Tambaqui before I upgraded from a Hurricane to a Dragon power cord, may actually be smaller than the boost I’m hearing with three of my AQ Hurricane power cords upgraded to Dragons. Or maybe the Dragon on the Tambaqui is allowing it to reach its full potential. so many variables!
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Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here (over 20 years), so that adds a lot of comfort! I’ve read his posts before. He mentions the N20 and his email address in old posts (I guess before they had filters for email addresses :)
Thinking I will proceed with the N20.
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“I use fixed volume on the MU1 and the Tambaqui and control volume with my preamp. Best this way I think.”
@fastfreight , that is how I have it configured too. That said, I tried flipping back and forth between fixed vs variable volume and I couldn’t detect any difference whatsoever.
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“The PhoenixNet only operates at 100Gb/s.
The Mu-1 gives its best performance with a 1Gb Ethernet speed. Running it at 100Mb/s will hold it back.”
@richtruss thank you. That would make a lot of sense.
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@antigrunge2 , I guess the combined DAC/Streamer/Server/High Precision clock approach hasn’t been contemplated on this thread really. As I’ve been focused on testing separate servers and outboard dedicated DACs.
That’s an interesting question - if I were to sell my Tambaqui, Innuos Server, and Innuos Reclocker (along with two premium Audioquest Dragon power cords and two Audioquest Diamond USB cables, that would likely pave the way to open up a path to a very high-end uber DAC/Server combo component. But ultimately I think this would be a compromise in SQ…. Maybe? Not sure!
Not considering going this route at present, but an interesting concept I’d not considered.
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@ghasley , that is good advice. Before I consider a flight, I might check if I can somehow get a demo sent to me locally.
While I do have a good relationship with local dealers, I find that it’s not dealers who help you with issues, but rather the component vendor. I’m not sure I’ve ever spoken to a dealer when I’ve had an issue or question; it’s always been direct to the company that made the component.
Maybe it’s just me but I also have found advice from component vendors to be far more insightful than advice from dealers, provided you understand that advice will from vendors will always be slanted in their favour. I’ve had vendors send me detailed product schematics for example, while teaching me how it works while providing me with advice on how best to use it in my home. Never got anything lat that level of depth from a dealer!
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Thanks for the thoughts. I’ll stay to seek out a demo, however there aren’t any dealers in Canada! Sometimes companies will work with a local HiFi shop to provide a demo when there are no other dealers around, so I will see if I am able to do that.
@lordmelton , what qualities of the MU1 did you find were more suited to classical and acoustic vs other genres? I don’t really care about DSD and the MU1 is all about the 4X upsampler which is only available with AES, so I don’t think it would make any sense to use USB with the MU1 anyways..
@ghasley , did you directly compare the MU1 to the Innuos Statement (which is undoubtedly great and undoubtedly expensive), Aurender, or other? If so, can you comment on the differences you noted?
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Most definitely, will be seeing first about a possible demo. I’m still interested in the Innuos Pulsar too but that is delayed….
I checked and there are no MU1’s for sale used. That would have been a less risky option to buy blind (from a reputable seller or dealer) as I could always resell and lose little to no cash.
I did notice there are a few mint/good condition used Antipodes K50’s for sale online.
That said, I’m interested in opinions on the the MU1, even if they are just subjective opinions. Like to hear what others think…
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Agree that just because a piece doesn’t support a certain format, player, or output connection, it shouldn’t be judged poorly. Roon is not the be all and end all for everyone and in many cases doesn’t sound as good as other players (even if it’s interface is great and it’s “radio” mode is simply fantastic).
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I’ve been perusing many, many other forum posts on other sites that substantiate the pro reports, which is really what I was after with this thread (either support or contradict the pro reviews).
Speaking in absolutes really gets folks on Audiophile forums going, as there of course are none, and it disrespects other great components that are out there.. My apologies for being absurd! :)
General consensus of qualities of the MU1 vs Innuos Statement and Antipodes K50 I found to be:
- The MU1 is organic, natural, transparent, revealing, with class-leading spacial imaging, with great musical flow.
- Versus Innuos Statement which is also truly great but may be slightly less organic.
- And versus Antipodes K50 which is more organic and rich, vs the MU1 but less revealing. K50 also has excellent "musical flow". Detail is described as "dense".
- People talk about musical engagement most with both the MU1 and K50 it seems.
- I don' t quite know where Aurender fits into this mix.
Yes, each of our experiences may vary from the above depending on tastes, systems, and rooms, but these are common attributes described by a mix of pro reviewers AND individuals. I think this helps my understanding, knowing nothing beats my own ears.
I find discussions like this of value because it just such discussions that led me to audition the Gryphon Diablo 300 when I wasn’t finding any amps / preamps I liked in home demo comparisons. I ended up buying the Diablo a few years back and still absolutely love it and haven’t considered upgrading even once. I also find that how people generalize the qualities of the Diablo are 100% consistent with my assessments of it, and why I ended up choosing it when I couldn’t find anything else I could live with in that price range. I even agree with the one or two slightly negative comments on the Diablo 300 DAC module’s sound, but I still love it for it’s good qualities and have no desire to replace it. Hopefully I agree with the consensus on the MU1 when / if I get a chance to audition one, but could easily pivot if I find the consensus to be untrue for me.
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@jeffseight , you are right, that is why I've been "mining" user comments from forums. Just a theory but I think when it comes to streamers many have an opportunity to demo a particular brand/model and they just move ahead. While they all have sonic differences, my speculation is that streamers from reputable brands, unlike other HiFi components, all can all sound good to most people. I highly doubt anyone with a great system could listen to an Innuos Statement, an Antipodes K50, or an MU1, in isolation from hearing other similar class products, and think "Nah, that's definitely not for me". But I do think if given the chance to compare, one will be best. Again, this doesn't work for other components - things that sound great to some can sound downright awful to others.
It does seem that quite a few folks who trial the MU1 versus Innuos, Aurender, and Antipodes find the MU1 to be "best" to their ears. Simply from reports in other forums. I have yet to see an account of someone trialing the MU1 against others (BEFORE purchasing) and going with one of the others. Let me know if anyone finds one. @fuzztone this is what I was getting at with this thread with MU1 being potentially the "best" - not that expect that it could be or is.
@jeffseight , HiFi choice is definitely the best pro review site when it comes to streamers. The reviewer doesn't talk like other pro reviewers and gets into actual differences. That said I don't think he's done any Innuos reviews.
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@jl1ny , +1 as well! My point lower in the thread is that many individual accounts seem to corroborate the admittedly goofy Huff. And other reviewers too. Christiaan at HiFi Advice is much better - he directly compared the general sonic qualities , all things being equal, between the Antipodes K50 and the MU1. Interestingly, he changed his tune slightly as both brands made hardware and/or software revisions over time. While he at first characterized the MU1 as being quite organic, it seems that with hardware updates he followed up and said the sound has become more neutral, and a bit more “propulsive”. He also said in a video comment that the MU1 has become more lean in comparison with the K50. Two months ago he said this on a YT comment:
Hi Nick, The performance of both servers is codependent on Roon performance but the K50 also allows other server/player solutions which have different relative strengths. In general, though, under equal circumstances, the K50 sounds bigger, richer, fuller, lusher, and more relaxed. The Grimm on the other hand is more refined and precise and cleaner/leaner but arguably more transparent. Both have great focus. The measure of depth and 3D imaging greatly depends on the output format/interface. For the best depth and layering, use the K50’s AES/EBU outputs. Used in that manner, it sounds a little deeper and more enveloping than the Grimm. Tangibility is a little subjective and personal as it ties in with crispness and/or depth perception, depending on what matters most to the individual. Therefore, in terms of tangibility, overall, I would say it’s a tie between the two.
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I’d have the Oladra and in particular the new Statement on my list, but need to draw the line on cost somewhere! The new Statement was on my list to start with. Then after I heard from Innuos that for streaming the Pulsar would meet the performance of the regular Statement (not the new one though) at half the cost, it put the cost of the new Statement in perspective for me! If the new Statement was 25-30% cheaper I’d definitely consider it,
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@adasdad , I’m surprised no one has mentioned my lowly Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module before you did! You are right it is a bit of a mismatch. Cost wise the MU1 is only a little more expensive than my DAC module (although the DAC doesn’t have a big chassis so…) but that’s not saying anything really.
Not sure if there is anything to it but I’ve heard many say “It’s not the chip, but how it’s implemented”. That said I’m very familiar with the DAC’s strengths and weaknesses, and I’m sort of tied to it’s character, and the fact that I don’t need any extra cables or boxes. It does have a very slight hard edge in the upper midrange, but it’s offset by a dense and rich tone everywhere else (which I like) so it’s not really noticeable. Unless you crank it up, then it sounds hard/shouty, but I don’t listen loud.
In my experience, I’ve found that lesser components keep on sounding better and better if you keep feeding it with better upstream components - I’ve not found that lesser components hit a ceiling when fed by a component of a certain level or higher. Of course a world class DAC would sound better than my Diablo DAC module, but I’m fairly certain an MU1 class streamer/server would sound better with my DAC than a lesser class streamer/server. I’ve heard a school of thought that at beyond a certain level of streamer/server, the DAC stops mattering as much, and vice versa - at a certain level of DAC and beyond the streamer stops mattering as much.
Interestingly, Innuos seems to have launched and demonstrated it’s uber expensive Statement Next Gen (costs almost 2X the MU1) in Munich last year connected to a Gryphon Diablo 300 with its DAC module! At least it appears that is the case from the YT video. There is no DAC visible and just the Gryphon and an Isotek conditioner.
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I’ve briefly considered upgrading to a standalone DAC but quickly dismissed it. I know there are better performing DAC’s out there for higher cost. But my Diablo 300 amp and DAC module have become like an old pair of jeans that just fits perfectly, despite the couple of sonic quibbles that are inconsequential to me. It’s the only component in my system other than my Innuos PhoenixNET network isolation switch that I can’t see myself wanting to replace. My dealer called offering a trade in program, and I said that I’m good. He grumbled that he likes McIntosh customers better as they tend to want to upgrade every year but Gryphon owners are set for life! His words not mine, and he immediately said he shouldn’t have said that right after he said it. I know the Gryphon Essence would easily beat my Diablo but despite the value it’s still a massive upgrade cost, and I just don’t want all that added cabling. I’m struggling with “clean” routing of all my cables as and I can easily hear issues when I move my AC cords around the wrong way or coil them too much. As I said it’s one of the triggers into looking into the MU1, so I don’t need a separate reclocker box with cables. And, I’m hoping to acquire another component that is “special” to me, hitting all the right performance traits like the Diablo does for me. There’s nothing wrong with my other components but they simply don't have that “perfect fitting old pair of jeans” set of qualities.
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Interesting philosophical discussion on merits of upsampling…. Despite the title of my thread I have enough experience in this hobby to know that any “conclusion” I think I’ve reached may later be proven totally wrong! It’s so easy to reach incorrect assumptions in HiFi. That’s why “the best” was in quotations!
@lalitk I am not married to Roon, and if I can test an Aurender at home I would. Love the Roon interface and radio but I will use whatever sounds best. I currently use Innuos Sense which does sound better than Roon with Squeeze - something that only recently became evident in my system.
A dream would be to test a MU1 against an Innuos Statement (not the Next-gen; too pricey), an Aurender N20, and an Antipodes K50 - but not likely.
Of that list the two that seem to me to be maybe a bit more unique and special vs the others are the MU1 (with its optional 4X upsampling setting and “window into the recording studio” effect that users describe - or “I listen with tears in my eyes” I know, over the top comment, commence eye rolling/gagging) and the K50 (in general people speak about it’s richness, musical “flow”, character vs other options, and even greater depth of soundstage vs the MU1 when using AES).
Nothing at all against Innuos (I really, really like their company and products) and I’m certain Aurender is great as well based on what many say about their products. But to me, they seem like my Audioquest Dragon power cords - they are absolutely fantastic and perform at an extremely high level, but they are devoid of any character or personality that makes them special or unique, beyond their high performance that checks all the boxes - and for many that’s what is desired from a streamer / server. From how people talk about their respective sound characteristics, the MU1 and K50 don’t seem like they are simply another top-tier streamer that checks all the boxes. Dunno, may just be my incorrect perception. My Diablo set the standard for how I want to feel about components in my system, beyond just sounding great (which always comes first).
As a new wrinkle, my system has now become revealing enough (with upgrades) that the advantage of music files over streaming is for the first time obviously apparent (as opposed to before when the difference was subtly apparent). So while I said previously that the new Innuos Pulsar (streamer only) was of interest, now I’m not so sure…. Sigh, my digital music approach will become a bit more complicated. This is even with the benefit of the Innuos PhoenixNET which is superb (I describe it to friends as a device that cleans the filthy internet).
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@ghasley I’ve been wondering about this exact comparison - how the MU1 compares to others without its upsampling “advantage” engaged. So thank you for this!!!
I find it surprising that the MU1 without upsampling isn’t more ahead of the Zenith. The reason why is that I find that my PhoenixUSB Reclocker very noticeably improves my Zenith. The MU1 includes a high precision clock under the hood, so I would have expected it to have a bigger advantage over the Zenith on it’s own.
If the Zenith is a 7/10 when rated against any streamer / server regardless of price, which seems a reasonable score to me that I think I’d agree with, I’d say that the PhoenixUSB raises performance to a 7.5 / 10, or possibly even 7.7. Of note, had you used Sense with the Zenith vs the MU1 with Roon with no upsampling, the results may have been tied.
Maybe your DAC doesn’t care as much about whether it’s input has an ultra-precise clock? Or maybe the Zenith has other advantages, like it’s power management, that the MU1 doesn’t have. Either way I find your comparison very interesting.
One thing I do wonder with my current Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB setup is whether having the signal go through not one but two Audioquest Diamond USB cables negatively impacts the sound. I’m a strong believer that all cables impact sound (due to blind comparisons I’ve done), and that having a cable add it’s characteristics to the signal more than once could be too much of a good thing. I actually notice in my system that using one Diamond USB and one generic Innuos USB cable actually sounds more appealing in some respects and may be a tie vs using two Diamond USB cables. Another reason I’m interested in moving to a 1 box solution.
As an aside, when I first tried one Diamond USB cable at 1.6m length with the second cable being 0.6m, things sounded downright broken. The stock Innuos cable sounded vastly better in place of the 0.6M Diamond USB cable. It was at that point I tried a demo of two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cables, where the dealer sent me two cables of different lengths, 1m and 2m. Comparing both lengths, and both lengths of the Diamond USB as well, with just the Zenith in the system and no reclocker, the shorter length version of each model of cable sounded broken compared to the longer version. Broken is too strong a word but the difference was really large. After researching what I heard with my ears, I found that some people, and some companies including Nordost, recommend 1.8M as being the optimal sounding length of USB cable. They cite something about shorter cables impacting “reflections” adversely, whatever that means. Not sure if AES/EBU is sensitive to cable lengths.
In case anyone is wondering, yes the 2m Nordost Valhalla 2 cable was better than the 1.6m Audioquest Diamond. But my thought was that the difference wasn’t that large and you could get further upgrading your system in other areas for a lower cost. The Valhalla 2 USB also had less (but more refined) bass energy than the Diamond which I would have missed. The midrange was rather sublime though.
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@ghasley , great rationale; makes perfect sense. As an aside, I wonder why Innuos does not support AES as the others do.
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@grannyring , as I’ve mentioned in past threads For a long time I didn’t hear the benefit of Innuos Sense over Roon that you and pretty much everyone else hears, until fairly recently. Not sure if it was due to a version change in either’s software or another tweak in my system, but I now hear far more detail and better imaging with Sense. Roon still sounds a little “bigger” to me in terms of scale, and also fuller, but Sense is just better.
@ghasley , thanks again for your input. One concern I had was not knowing how decent the AES implementation is on my Diablo 300 DAC, vs USB which I currently use. Sounds like it will work well. I suppose the Diablo DAC’s supercapacitor it uses to provide isolated voltage for USB would not be utilized when using AES? I like that flashing blue light on the front of the Diablo that indicates the super cap is charging, when you haven’t powered the unit in a while! But it makes me think that Gryphon went the extra mile to make it’s USB interface on the DAC really good.
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@lalitk , I too thought I read something about Innuos supporting AES on their latest Pulse series (dedicated streaming players), but I checked earlier today and they don’t list AES under the list of supported interfaces.
UPDATE: My mistake, I was looking under the "connectivity" specifications, not "Audio Outputs". AES is in fact added on the Pulse series. Guessing Innuos will launch new servers / players based on the updates in the Pulse. Seems like they have an opportunity to launch an upgraded Zenith with the power supply updates of the Pulsar streamer, and with a high-precision "PhoenixUSB" clock under the hood, and with AES support, at a price that is halfway between the current Zenith Mk3 and the Statement.
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@lordmelton , just curious, have you compared the AES interface of your N20 to USB?
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@audioman58 , can you let me know the general characteristics of the Antipodes Antipodes K50, the MU1, the Aurender N20, and also the Innuos Zenith (Mk3) when combined with the PhoenixUSB Reclocker? From your post I imagine you have testing these.
Genuinely interested in a very general characterization of these products from someone who has experienced all of these. I know that each component is subject to a plethora of variables, but I hear the K50 for example universally described as tonally rich//dense.
I am starting to consider an alternate approach. Buy used, live with it for a few months, sell. If I find the magic streamer/server I can always sell and buy it new at that point. Even though I said I am not interested in the Aurender N20 I might start with this option as it’s the lowest cost of the class of products I’m looking at. Then I’d move to the K50. Then I’d trial a new MU1 (since there are never any used for sale). A long approach but I’d get very familiar with each.
One concerning thing I read in other forums (Whatsbest) is some concerns about the quality of Antipodes products, with more than a few accounts of people receiving new units that have major issues. Usually with SSD and USB interfaces not working at all. In all cases the issues were expeditiously resolved but it did spur some negative sentiment on the poor level of quality.
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@lordmelton You are right I agree my system is set up to be revealing. But I am attempting to get to a sound that is both romantic and revealing. I find that the Gryphon and it’s DAC help achieve that, with a richer sound and a seductive midrange. So I guess the philosophy of my system is to design it around a somewhat romantic “heart” (amp, DAC), with cabling that is as revealing as possible without changing the sound of my gear. Arguably my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables add something of their own, but not tonally (quick with slight leading edge emphasis). The Valhalla 2 power cords seemed to attenuate bass with my Gryphon (my dealer said someone else also made the same complaint with Valhalla 2 power cords and Gryphon), so I went with the Dragon (after also trying the Shunyata Omega cord which I found to be great but definitely overly romantic).
I’m torn on the used MU1 for sale (thanks for reporting this!). My plan is to try several players/servers before buying a new one, which means I will need to sell each. I don’t mind if I lose some cash in the process provided I get the majority back when I sell each piece (I know it can take time to sell; I’ve sold gear before). But this particular MU1 has a scratch, albeit on one of the back corners. So I’m not sure if I might have a problem selling it. There is an N20 and a K50 that are “mint” for sale now. Debating on which to jump on. But the MU1 is definitely not a piece that comes up on the used market often, as I doubt there are as many out there as there are other players/servers. Good to have choices!
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So with my plan to buy used and live with a K50, a MU1, and possibly a N20 for a few months, I now have options to start with any of the above.
The N20 and K50 are in mint condition but the MU1 has a scratch on the rear corner that you can only see from the rear.
Knowing I plan to sell and move on to another, any votes on which I should start with? The N20 is the lowest cost as expected. And the scratch on the MU1 seems like it might affect my ability to resell, not sure….
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“It’s up to you”. They are all great options, can’t decide, lol…. Maybe I will negotiate with all three and let the best result be the decider.
On the other hand this could be my only opportunity to “trial” a MU1 without purchasing a new one. I was thinking that I would try a used N20, then a K50, and then see if a dealer (located across continent and in a different country) would loan me a demo MU1. What are the odds of a dealer agreeing to send a demo, knowing that there are just a small number of Grimm dealers in the US? If there is a good chance this won’t be possible, maybe that should be the deciding factor and just get the MU1.
@ghasley good point on the recession. I may end up needing live with whichever I choose first longer than anticipated given the pending recession, with fewer buyers out there. I think there will be more units for sale not only because some people overspent, but also simply because there will be fewer people buying. Thankfully I will have the proceeds from the sale of my Innuos Zenith mk3 (2TB), PhoenixUSB Reclocker, Two Audioquest Diamond USB cords, and one Audioquest Hurricane Source cable to help offset this purchase. That said I’ll need to buy a decent AES cable.
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@lordmelton , good idea! However one of the sellers is a dealer. They responded to my email (where I noted the products I was interested in) that “the N20 is inferior to the K50” (He was the seller of the K50). I suspect “inferior” is too strong a word but I do think the K50 may possibly be in a slightly higher class than the N20, at a higher price of course.
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@lalitk , yeah of course I get that the dealer is biased :) I didn’t spell it out as it was obvious. Unfortunately I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice. I know there are some out there, based on accounts of others, but unfortunately I’ve yet to meet them. The best sort that I’ve encountered are the ones who are glad to help you and don’t seem motivated to make a sale. But these guys rarely give advice and when they do it’s biased to their gear.
Is the consensus here that AES will likely sound better than USB on all three devices? Need to budget for a good cable too. Of course the MU1 needs it to utilize its upsampling, and everyone seems to say it’s the best with the K50. What about the N20 - would AES connecting to my Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module likely be better than USB as well?
My local dealer can get demos of Shunyata and Audioquest cables. Thinking of trialing a Sigma and Diamond AES from those respective vendors. I’ve also heard great things about the Sablon AES cable which I believe is in the same price range.
At some point I’d want to try the Shunyata Omega and the Nordost Valhalla V2 cables, which I have heard great things about, and I expect these cables to both sound great in quite different manners. But I don’t want to spend that much on an AES cable quite yet. The Sigma/Diamond/Sablon is the class I’ll be looking at now.
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@lalitk thanks for this. Very helpful advice. Looking forward to trying some cable options, whichever way I go.
I guess all options have limitations of sorts. Innuos has no AES (except new Pulse line which may signal a general change for future products), Aurender you can only use their Conductor app, Antipodes has superior AES implementation to USB, etc. for me, the player app doesn’t matter as long as it doesn’t totally suck. Yeah I love Roon and it’s radio mode but sound comes first for me. I still find the Innuos Sense app is glitchy, with tracks sometimes not wanting to start when I play them or skip forward into the track. But it still sounds better than Roon+Squeeze on my Innuos stuff so I use it.
Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB? I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be. Pretty sure I read a couple of posts a while back on other forums from guys who made the same jump to the N20 and found it was a big lift in sound.
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@lalitk , thanks and yes, I did read the last paragraph. I guess I’m wasn’t really focusing on future-proofing as I have no desire to switch my Diablo and DAC module, which doesn’t allow for such integrations. But it’s a good point as who knows what will happen years down the road…. Adding a master clock sounds intriguing but right now I want to reduce my devices and cabling! And I just hate the fact that regardless of the device, premium power and signal cords ALWAYS make a difference, regardless of what the device is…. I suppose my objective now is to get the best sound I can with a one box player/server solution, with my integrated amp and DAC module. But yeah your point is a good one still.
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@lordmelton I could pay with my CC but the N20 seller said they would only use PayPal Friends and Family, so there are no fees for me to suck up and pay for added protection (and no added protection for me beyond my CC). The MU1 seller accepts bank wire only so I think too risky…
Maybe I’m headed for the K50.
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@sns , nice thought but the Phoenix doesn’t have an Ethernet input unfortunately! Just a USB input. Also, I’m trying to consolidate to one box and one set of cables for my player/server, as good as the PhoenixUSB is. Plus I plan to sell the PhoenixUSB to help fund this purchase!
That said I’m still interested in the K50!
Update: oh you mean ADD the new box as a server only which means I’d have THREE boxes! I’m trying to consolidate, so no, not going to work for me.
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I made an offer on the Aurender N20, but the seller did not want to use escrow (which I understand) OR PayPal Goods and Services. PayPal for Friends was his only PayPal option, I guess he wants to get the cash prior to shipping. Seller has a fair number of positive reviews over the past two years, with comments, but in theory that would be possible to have fake reviews.
I don’t know about everyone else, but that seems like a lot of money to send to a stranger with no protection beyond a few positive reviews - at least beyond the amount that I could stomach if I were to be scammed. The seller is someone you can find online without is an owner of a business serving the public, but who’s to say they are that person. I suppose I could ask them for a photo of their ID which would help somewhat but still….
The MU1 seller has similar restrictions.
Am I being overly cautious? How frequently do people get scammed dealing with sellers that have more than a few positive reviews in the past two years?
The K50 is through a reputable dealer so that remains an option. I wouldn’t need those protections with a dealer…. With the K50 my only real concern is how good my Gryphon Diablo DAC module’s AES input is, in comparison with its USB input which is very good. But if it doesn’t work out, I can always sell and lose little or no money since it’s used.
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@lalitk I’m buying used as I plan to resell and experience multiple products living with each for a few months. The K50 for example is known the change significantly over many months of run time, mainly due to its power supply I’ve heard (3 or more months). Often I find with demos, the dealer sends me a brand new unit that I simply pay for and keep if I like it. I’d rather take my time and not be rushed. It’s always stressful (for me at least) not knowing if a piece will work out, your home demo time running out, and having to call the dealer to send it back. Often a few weeks is not enough to discover the one tweak that makes the piece click with your system. I find adding a new piece can expose other issues in your system that you have to work out. The biggest instance of that is when I added Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables. OMG did that send me on a journey due to exposed issues, which is ongoing but I feel is very near resolved.
Does paying by CC really add protection? How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?
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@phastm3, I’ve heard some who agree with you for sure on the Gryphon DAC. Others say it stands up to equivalent and higher priced standalone DACs and is well served by seamless integration with the amp.
I’m guessing you may be right however based on the DAC’s you mentioned. That said, I’m a cable guy and I’d need to invest a lot in the interconnect and power cable for the standalone DAC, plus I’m wanting to consolidate my box’s and more importantly my cables.
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@lalitk , I actually made use of CC protection when a car dealer ripped me off once. They were able to apply a “chargeback” as I had the evidence.
In the case of PayPal, the seller doesn’t charge my credit card, rather, PayPal does. So for PayPal Friends and Family, CC companies apply the chargeback to PayPal in cases of non-delivery? I want to be comfortable with buying the N20 using my CC through PayPal F&F, but don’t want a sense of false security.
Sorry for taking this thread temporarily off the rails!
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Just an update, I went through with the purchase of the Aurender N20 (mint, two months old as the seller upgraded to the N30, which his system definitely deserves…).
Even if it sounds equally good as my Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB that will be a win, as my objective was to reduce boxes and cables. Hoping it will sound better though. That said I will list it in a few months and follow through with my plan, as I’m interested in the K50 and finally the MU1 as well. I may lose a bit of cash in the process but it’s worth trying these well respected machines.
Update: I keep forgetting to mention the upcoming Innuos Pulsar as well. I guess finding out how the other side of the fence sounds is intriguing. But the Pulsar could be a profoundly good product with it’s fancy power supply (sounds similar to Statement Nextgen PSU) and included PhoenixUSB Lite. That said I just recently started noticing how much better the files sound played from my Zenith Mk3, so local file support is an option I think I will want to keep, unless the Pulsar is so good at streaming it actually succeeds in removing the need for local file storage altogether. But, no one actually knows how good it is yet. The Statement Next Gen is supposed to be way ahead of the regular Statement according to those that heard it or have it, which could mean great things for the Pulsar if it shares aspects of the power supply design.
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Wow, seems the used uber-premium AES cables are mostly 1.25m or less. After my experience with short (sub 1.5m)USB cables sounding far worse than their > 1.5m counterparts, I’d think many are unknowingly undoing the benefits of premium cables by getting shorter cables so they can afford them. Or they simply expect shorter runs are better as that would seem to be logical. I found the the vast performance benefits of longer USB cables over shorter versions BEFORE I read the vendor recommendations on the matter (1.8m or longer according to the Nordost FAQ).
I’ve not done the same comparison with power cables but others say 2m is best. And, Nordost has earned some credibility with their cable length recommendations as what they say matches what I discovered first hand (for USB at least), before being informed of this.
Thinking I should just buy a used Audioquest Diamond AES cable so it will be a fair comparison to the USB Diamond I have. There is a used one 50% off of retail that appears to be in good condition so thinking I may go with that. Will hang on to it for my eventual test of the Pulsar/K50/MU1, all of which will be a ways off. Will also see if I can get a demo Sigma and Omega just to compare.
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@lalitk , absolutely, will do! As the unit has only been used two months, and inactive for the past while packed in a box, it may not even be fully burned in yet. Thinking of coordinating trials of Audioquest Diamond, Shunyata Sigma, and Sablon AES demos. I should get on that now as it often takes weeks before I see demo cables. I might check the used market to see what is out there. For USB all I have now is the Audioquest Diamond, and the only other I’ve tried at the extreme end of the price spectrum is the Nordost Valhalla 2 - which was truly great but for me not worth the premium over the Diamond.
Very curious to see how the N20 sounds compared to Innuos Zenith MK3 + PhoenixUSB. I almost don’t want to know but I will see how the PhoenixUSB sounds with the N20. I am crossing my fingers that it sounds the same or worse with the Reclocker and I can sell the PhoenixUSB as planned! Which will also be doable if AES ends up being the way to go.
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Update, since the much talked about and lauded Jorma AES cable is similar in price to the Audioquest Diamond (even a bit lower cost possibly), I’ve reached out to Jorma directly and also to Vanaltd.com who they list as their North America rep. Hoping I can get a trial or purchase with return privileges. Does anyone know of any other dealer that sells Jorma? Other than The Cable Co that lists them, but I understand that people have not been having the best experience there over the past couple of years.
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@ghasley , I would say that Audioquest Diamond and Valhalla 2 USB cables are revealing - not sure if I would agree they are bright? Maybe. Rightly or wrongly, my goal is to have my amp and DAC provide a touch of warmth, which the Gryphon does, and have all of my cabling be as revealing as possible. Rather than the cable adding it’s own character or masking things over.
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@ghasley , I agree with all of your points. My Valhalla 2 speaker cables don’t seem to constrain the midrange warmth of my Diablo amp and DAC, but they most certainly don’t add warmth. I found that the Valhalla 2 USB and power cords do however attenuate bass vs Audioquest, unlike the Valhalla 2 speaker cables. Had this not been the case I would have gone full Valhalla 2 throughout.
My desired balance is to have a fuller, solid, fleshy and well-grounded bass and mid, but with ambience, air and transparency through the entire band, including high frequencies, all with crisp leading-edge emphasis but not at the expense of the rest of the tones. Have I achieved that? Not 100% sure actually! I could use a touch more “groundedness” (if that makes sense) in the mids maybe, and maybe touch more confidence and transparency in the higher frequencies. Maybe my exploration of network players/servers will help with that.
I did read one single person’s characterization (so grain of salt and all that) of the Innuos sound to be “the closest thing to a concert hall experience” as a differentiation from other players. That description to me doesn’t quite jive with my objectives noted above, and I do actually think that concert hall description may apply to my system’s current sound to some degree. Vocals are quite far back in the mix and my system does set you back from the soundstage quite a bit. This is distinctly the opposite of how people describe the Diablo, which is often described as a “front row” presentation. Maybe if this person is right I will lose that concert hall effect changing out the player. We’ll see. But it also could be more my speakers than anything.
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I’m looking forward to testing AES with my N20 but Jorma and their NA rep Vantaltd has not got back to me on my request for a 1.5M AES cable. Yet, but it’s only been a day.
Anyone know where else I can get a Jorma cable?
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@sns , @lordmelton , I suddenly am very much looking forward to seeing whether my PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender N20’s USB output to see who is right!
I suggest leaving the subject alone until I render my verdict! :)
I do wonder if this battle would give Innuos an unfair advantage, since the PhoenixUSB has its own dedicated power supply in its own dedicated box. I suspect just having a separate power cord to power the clock in isolation could be an advantage.
I have a lot of respect for Innuos based on my experience. And I know a lot of others have a huge respect for Aurender, so my expectations are high for when the N20 arrives.
IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……
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I suppose this “competition” I’m about to run when my N20 arrives is not just between Innuos and Aurender, but also between USB and AES on my Diablo DAC module. As it is my only DAC, sadly I’ll be unable to see if the results are generally consistent on other DACs. I know Gryphon has put a lot of focus on the USB interface of my DAC (including a supercap that powers the USB instead of the source device) but I have no idea about the AES interface. But it seems people on this thread suggest, if I understand correctly, that the input device takes over when AES is used, implying the DAC AES implementation quality matters less. Not sure if I got that right.
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@metaldetektor, I personally didn’t see how your post could have implied you were affiliated with any sellers - all good from my perspective.
And, I think your assessment that the used (and scratched) MU1 list price seems a little high is valid, despite the fact that it has a memory and ssd upgrade. List prices are easy to figure out. If I’m not mistaken, the N20 lists for $2k more than the MU1 and yet I paid less for my used mint condition N20. Which I think was priced fairly for a mint condition unit used for only two months.
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Update: rather than buying an AES/EBU cable outright to try with my Aurender N20 and Gryphon Diablo DAC and compare with the USB interface, my dealer confirmed they can get a demo Audioquest Diamond AES cable sent to me to try. This will make my comparison with Innuos USB (and Aurender USB too) more apples to apples, since I currently am using two Audioquest Diamond USB cables with my Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB.
My incoming Aurender N20 just took off from Chicago/O’Hare and is currently cruising at 35,000ft.
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After decades of having experience with breakin/warmup time with components, inevitably with every new piece I try my mind tries to convince myself that breakin/warmup won’t happen in this instance, and in every case but once I’ve been proven wrong (I didn’t notice any breakin effect with my Gryphon amp). The Aurender N20 has changed a lot already. Very glad I resisted the urge to comment on the sonics at first, as it’s much better now. It was doing some great things at first but the few weak areas I noticed during a very brief initial test are no longer an issue.
I should also emphasize this is not a fair face off between Innuos and Aurender. The Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker’s cost is lower than the Aurender N20. I expect Innuos would prefer if I was comparing a Statement (but not the new one with upgraded power supply which is double-uber expensive). Statement was a bit more than I wanted to spend and there aren’t any used however.
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My new N20 arrived. Plugged it in and connected it. The unit is still physically cold. Played a few tracks. Out of respect for both brands (coming from an Innuos Zenith Mk3 plus PhoenixUSB Reclocker) I will wait to comment publicly on what I hear until I’ve run it overnight. But for now I’ll say two things:
1) I can’t believe how a different music server can sound so different. And,
2) The N20 sounds very, very nice.
My demo AES cable (Audioquest Diamond) is probably arriving in a week. When it does, I’ll compare it versus USB (also using an Audioquest Diamond). I am also going to see if my Innuos PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender USB output, which would imply Innuos does USB better. But not really a fair comparison as Innuos would have the advantage of the separate box and power supply.
Okay I’ll say one more thing for now. I REALLY want to try the Grimm MU1 and the Antipodes K50 as well, and my plan was to buy and sell each of them used so I could live with each for a while and really get to know what I like best. But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20. I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while.
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I want to say more now, but I just know how much things can change through warmup! The seller of the N20 had the unit all boxed up for weeks after using it for only a month or two. I think it needs at least 12 hours or so of run time. Also I should ask the seller how many hours he broke it in. Not going to say the Aurender is “better”, because at this point there are a few things the Innuos does better, and a few things the Aurender does better. But that said I am really liking the sound of the Aurender. I’ve also snuck a quick test adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to the N20 output. Sound changed less than I expected, but it changed. Hard to say at this point whether I prefer with or without the reclocker. It’s different! Things will become more apparent after some warmup/breakin.
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