Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@lalitk 

Your explanation/distinction and rationale is clear (At least to me).

Charles

@arafiq 

Ignore the pompous ignoramus and please carry on. 

I would add quite childish. Pompous is being kind.

Charles

@ghasley 

I can switch between 2fs and 4fs on the fly and I find the differences to be so minimal that its probably confirmation bias on my part. YMMV.

I find this very likely to be the case. I believe that there’s a potential in getting to caught up with numbers and tech sometimes. 4f does not have to be the default “best” setting for every DAC and circumstances. Great advice to take your time, relax and listen.

Charles

@chopandchange 

I put the Grimm in front of a comparatively low cost Metrum Octave v2 DAC and even this lowly DAC sounded far better with the Grimm at the helm.

Having such a solid front end like the Grimm helps you find the best from any DAC you may have in your collection - and in fact will also help you choose and audition any new potential DACs you may want to buy, with the Grimm allowing you to hear them at their very best.

So starting with the Grimm and simply using an Octave DAC (as an example) until you can afford better makes for good foundations in choosing the right DAC further down the line. When you audition these DACs you can be sure you have no upstream bottleneck putting a throttle on the full potential of your new converter.

 Agreed!  Excellent logic and explanation. It is not simply "All about the DAC".

The quality and contribution of the digital source/signal is at minimum, as important and possibly more. Grimm MU1 -Metrum Octave is an excellent example.

Charles

@sns 

Grimm chose to go in the direction of SMPS as the preferred power supply option. For the record, Antipodes has followed suit with their flagship Olandra music server. SMPS rather than linear power supply as found in their K50 server.

“Powered by a twin-PCB switching power supply developed in-house to provide the lowest possible jitter values, the MU1’s core is shaped by a NUC board that runs Linux and the Roon Core server component. Importantly, Grimm does not just rely on standard Linux or Roon packages. Refusing to use standard libraries, the Grimm team wrote their own code from the ground up. This is where the MU1 differs from other music servers and likely an important reason for why it sounds so superb”

From the Hi-Fi Advice review.

Charles

+1 @lalitk 

Looking forward to the listening impressions.

Charles 

@arafiq 

Lastly, I really appreciate the feedback you are sharing with the audiogon community. There are very few people who compare high-end streamers in their own systems and faithfully report their findings without any bias. I certainly have enjoyed reading your posts and find them very valuable. Thank you for sharing!

Agreed!

This is something you’re more likely to find on Whatsbestforum. The effort and time is appreciated.

Charles

@ghasley 

At least it used to be very reasonable money at ~$5k...its now an $8k dac.

Yikes!!! 
A 60% increase. Resorting to its Switzerland roots it seems.

Charles

@lalitk 

I do not believe that the Grimm MU1 has an onboard DAC.

@ghasley 

You mentioned the Mearson DAC. Isn't it DS Burr Brown based rather than R2R?

Thanks,

Charles

@ghasley

The Grimm is hand made in the Netherlands, Eindhoven IIRC.

Correct.

Charles

@ghasley 

My friend has the Pulse in house, which does have the multiple flavors of digital outputs. The Pulsar will be USB only.

Those very favorable comments from the reviewer/ friend were about the Pulse? That is very encouraging. to know. Also wise of Innuos to offer it with connection options as well.

Charles

@ghasley 

Another option for you could also be to keep your Zenith, sell the Phoenix and get your hands on the Pulsar. For very little money (net) you gain the multiple outputs(aes/spdif/usb). Ive been told by a reviewer friend that it is an amazing performer for the $$$ with a warm, enveloping presentation. 

I thought that the “Pulsar “ was not finalized and still a work in progress. I know that the Pulse Mini and the Pulse network players are now available,

Charles

@sns 

Like  Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles

Interesting you choose the Oyaide R1 receptacles. When Chris built mine he offered these as an upgrade option and I chose them. This was in 2008. Now 2023 and still no chance my system will be without it. Excellent audio products are really able to withstand the test of time.

Charles

Agree with the benefits of using a balanced AC isolation transformer. I can see why the Torus RM 20 improved the sound quality. I have a BPT 3.5 Signature +, which is based around a high quality Plitron balanced AC isolation toroidal transformer. It is an excellent asset for my audio system. I’m a strong advocate for these devices in High End audio systems.

Charles

@lalitk 

Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible

I can appreciate their rationale for choosing this lower power method. A viable alternative to the high processing power required for the Roon approach. Antipodes flagship Olandra music server has abandoned LPS altogether. They believe that high quality SMPS is superior to a high quality LPS. They put their money where their mouth is and are totally committed to this approach. A number of ways to skin a cat.

Charles

@sns I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

I’ll take it a step further and say that the quality of the power supply impacts every single audio component.

Charles

@sns

I’ve come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I’d prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev sound analysis.

No problem at all. As we both know this is subjectivity in pure form. You’re just a bit to the “cool” side of neutral and I’m just a bit to the “warm” side of neutral.

Charles

@grannyring Charles, I am going to put the Purple fuse in my Tron dac as my only tweak 🙂. We will see if it also brings the magic with this dac or not

Bill, I’m genuinely interested in the outcome with the excellent Tron DAC. Did you find the SR Purple fuse to be directional? The builder of my new DAC said listening confirmed to him that wire is directional in orientation.  He knows that this is a controversial position, he doesn’t care.

Charles

@sns analysis of sound quality shouldn’t be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

Different strokes for different folks, indeed.

Nothing wrong with analyzing sound. Everyone has to enjoy and appreciate the listening experience in their own preferable manner. I was just stating my priorities. They certainly do not have to be your chosen way. No proclamations here.

I do genuinely appreciate good sound quality or I wouldn’t be so selective with audio equipment. But, when all is said and done, the way the music is reproduced and presented is far more valuable to me. Again, that’s just me.

Charles

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music

It this turns out to be the essential distinction between the two, I’d choose the Aurender by the proverbial country mile. IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.

Charles

@ghasley 

I believe it has been acknowledged that the Cable Company doesn't extend their lending service to Canada.

Charles

@ghasley 

+1. Wise counsel.

Charles

I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

My suspicion is continued burning-in and switching to the AES connection path is only going to improve the Aurender N20 from its already impressive initial presentation.

Charles

Yes, Aurender say the SPDIF/AES outputs are best but this will all depend on your DAC.

@lordmelton 

USB offers greater resolution and DSD and besides that in my system the soundstage is much bigger with USB. Again though the N20 only upsamples using SPDIF/AES.

Anyway no crime in using both at the same time and switching between them.

Yes, it will depend which input  receiver of the DAC has been optimized. With regard to the digital source it’s clear that Aurender decided to optimize their AES/EBU pathway. Switching between the input options will tell the story.

Charles

@ghasley 

You have affirmed what I pretty much suspected. The Network Acoustics Muon filtering system is the real deal. It will be a part of my upcoming audio streaming system. Thanks for sharing your latest listening experiences.

Charles 

@lalitk

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

I am in agreement 100 %. Personal preference is the dominant determinant. All of the really fine components have trade off strengths and weaknesses. Listeners inevitably pick and choose.

Charles

But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20.  I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while

An impressive start for the Aurender. I’m very curious as to how the Innuos and Aurender “house sound/signatures “ contrast. I’m looking forward to further comments/listening impressions.

Charles 

@ghasley 

+1

Well put indeed.

Charles

IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……

A rational conclusion if this were to be the outcome.

@sns is right. Whichever signal path output/input a given brand has chosen to "optimize" will be their best sounding. Most concentrated attention and focused efforts (Design and implementation) subsequently determine the sonic performance.

Charles

@sns I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

That could very well be it. Perhaps these manufacturers have done their own testing and comparing and find AES/EBU-SPDIF BNC/RCA better sounding than USB. It is certainty plausible.

Charles

Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB?  I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be

Nothing but speculation and assumptions. Follow your plan to listen to all 3 of them. They’re all quite worthy. for all you know you may find the Aurender N20 your favorite.

Charles

Given that stated scenario I would begin with the Aurender N20. Very good reputation, less expensive option and due to its popularity shouldn’t be hard to re-sell if necessary. 2nd choice, MU-1 due to undeniable intrigue (Even with the minor cosmetic flaw).

Charles

@lalitk 

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version

That explanation makes perfect sense. 

Charles

@ghasley 

A quick off topic aside. The A.N.Jinro-Orangutan 96 pairing must sound utterly natural and involving 

Charles

@kairosman

this thread has piqued my interest, I’ve decided I’m going to audition the Grimm to hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

This is an excellent step. Actually auditioning  of the Grimm MU1 in your audio system and compare to what you’re currently accustomed to. I don’t believe that USB and I2S are inherently better. But it’s just one man’s opinion. You will be in a position to determine for yourself. I applaud your effort and willingness to try. This beats preconceived notions and personal bias.

Best wishes,

Charles

Regardless, can someone explain why you think Grimm opted to forgo USB/I2S outputs?

The Grimm team seems to be well organized, experienced and have done their homework/research. I get the impression they find no genuine superiority of USB orI2S signal paths. In fact they may have determined well executed AES/EBU is better sounding.

Hans Beekhuyzen did a recent review of the Magna Mano Ultra MK III and compared its AES output to I2S and found them equal in sound quality. So possibly more hype than real world performance enhancement. As has been mentioned during this thread (Numerous times) quality of and attention to implementation /optimization is likely the dominant determinant.

Charles

@ghasley If someone says box A sounds better than box B, that can be debated. If some says "we are capable of 24/3072 resolution and our competition isn’t"...thats quantifiable, printable and repeatable but the secondary question rarely gets posed...does it matter?

Spot on!

I've asked that very question, do those numbers truly matter? Agree with @lalitk .​​@ghasley ​​​​​,  you've made numerous salient points in this thread.

Charles

@ghasley 

Very insightful comments!!!

Charles

Like you said, which server/streamer is best? The one that meets your goal.

@lalitk and @ghasley

Unquestionably you have respectively accomplished this goal .

Charles

@ghasley 

Do you find the Network Acoustics Muon beneficial with your MU1? Hans Beekhuyzen really likes the Muon but said/suggested not as impactful with the MU1. Maybe due to sufficient internal filtering within the MU1?

Charles

@ghasley

I really appreciate your last post as it is very insightful. Based upon my various listening experiences over a period of time I have found that digital components relying on signal manipulation/math/algorithms as a rule didn’t particularly impress. Have I heard every incarnation of such? No.

Yet I do not doubt that the Grimm MU1 sounds as excellent as “many” have attested to. If I heard it and it was as good as advertised, I would easily accept  that. You have to listen to audio products and judge  them accordingly. Signal manipulation or not if it sounds good, end of the story.

BTW given the make up of your audio system I can imagine that it sounds truly splendid! I always enjoy reading posts from you and @lalitk . Keep them coming.

Charles

@jerryg123 

This has been a real good thread and civil.

Agreed. 
The Grimm MU1 makes a very interesting point of discussion. Caught my attention last year after reading Christiaan Punter’s thorough comparison of it and the Antipodes K50.Easy to understand how either can be an ideal choice for a discerning listener.

Charles

@lalitk 

I completely understand the argument about ‘real world SQ’. I know atleast two very highly regarded DAC manufacturers (AudioNote and Abendrot) that doesn’t do DSD (an important consideration for me) but I wouldn’t hesitate to jump on the first opportunity to own them as a sidekick to my amazing Merging DAC.  

This expresses a degree of flexibility it seems.

Anyway perhaps he’ll chime in with further thoughts.

Charles

@nyev 

I sincerely hope that you are able to arrange in home auditions for your short list of music servers. I believe with some effort and perseverance you can make this happen. Anything less is simply speculation.

Charles

You have to trust your ears and while I want everyone to choose the path that best suits them, the right path isn’t achieved by reading and adopting absolute positions.

@lalitk is obviously very capable of speaking for himself, but he didn’t adopt a rigid dogmatic stance( At least he did not to me). He clearly acknowledges real world performance is what matters. It has been also acknowledged that the Grimm may indeed be quite accomplished/successful with their up sampling approach. Where is the “absolute position “?

At the end of the day it’s all dependent on the ears and listening impressions of each individual. There’s no universal consensus agreement with anything with regard to audio matters.
Charles

By the way, I totally agree with you regarding upsampling or downsampling. But many dacs also provide an "unsampled" option. Do you think that is good enough or is there some trickery going on behind the scenes although the manufacturer calls it unsampled? Just curious to know what your experience has been,

Hans Beekhuyzen reviewed the MU1, praised it to the heavens and subsequently purchased and placed it in his reference system. According to him the up sampling feature can be turned off. So in this case it seems off really means off. Having said that, the majority of users universally praise the up sampling capability.

Charles

@lalitk I’m concerned, just leave the re-mastering, Upsampling or Downsampling in the capable hands of artisans in the recording studio.

Preaching to the choir.😊

The Grimm MU1 may be an exception to the rule scenario. But I definitely understand where you’re coming from in principle. I also believe that the less manipulation, the better.

Charles

@nyev

A higher quality digital source be it music server or CD transport is going to improve the overall sound quality. I know that some believe the DAC is by far the most important but I disagree. Both of these components are vital for achieving good sound. They operate in tandem.

Charles

our investment in the gear should never be the end game, we should strive to maximize our enjoyment”.

+1, @ghasley

I couldn’t agree with you more!

+2 😊

Charles