Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@latik This not based on my own listening, this based on many reviews/comparisons over last couple years. This is simply my order of preference, not an objective or presented as objective order of hiearchy. Whatever the true order, I don't believe there's any question these are amongst the best streamers out there. May be others I have no knowledge of. I also base my ratings on the amount of proprietary technology that's gone into these particular streamers. I know some Individuals that have  been trying to clone the Taiko for some time now, gave up the pursuit and simply purchased the Taiko.

@nyev The Cable Company lending library has a multitude of cables available for demos, used them for years for all manner of cable shootouts. I agree with your characterization AQ Diamond, don't feel the need to replace this usb cable.

@nyev I agree, seems your Gryphon supplies desired level of resolution, transparency with Innuos so Gryphon not the problem. And you hear desired musicality with Aurender, again Gryphon is capable of delivering here for you. This leaves streamer, in your position I'd stretch for new gen Statement, you may be surprised in what the very top tier of the top tier may bring you. Sean Jacobs designs Innuos power supplies, that new PS is really world class, present Statement first gen are jumping on the new gen PS. I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

Direct fair comparisons of streamers is extremely difficult to undertake. What dac streamer is partnered with extremely critical as best port for rendering is unique to each streamer, same goes for dac. Optimal matching means best port on streamer to best port on dac. For instance, Antipodes claims AES/EBU is best port, is this best port on any particular dac it's partnered with? Other streamers claim USB, I2S, in that case usb or I2S should be optimal port on dac.

In regard to general reviews, streaming setups so variable, and likely unique, to point they may hold little value for you. Has network been optimized, what about ISP quality, music player software, optimization of OS, and I could go on.

I believe proper integration or matching  of streamer to dac is seriously undervalued at this point in time.  Quality of rendering is one of the most critical operations in streaming, matching optimal rendering ports on streamer and dac is absolutely necessary in order to hear full potential of any streaming setup. Far too many reviews don't evaluate streamers in their best light, leave out comparisons of different ports to optimal ports on dacs.

In evaluating streamers on their own, I pay very close attention to how rendering is implemented within streamer, dedicated power supply and clocking on dedicated board is optimal, ports coming directly off motherboard subject to higher noise and less than optimal clocking.

 @vgmbpty brings up one box vs multi box solution, whole other can of worms. This is where the rendering capability of streamers really comes into play , and I'd agree the one box solution becomes the more expensive proposition, especially if usb is preferred mode. Optimizing other ports may be less costly for streamer manufacturers, which may be reflected in streamer price.

Based on optimal usb rendering via one box solution, my choice in recent streamer purchase came down to Wadax, Taiko Extreme, both above my price level, Aurender W20SE, Innous Statement were others seriously considered, this new Statement looks very nice. All of these do usb rendering at highest level, may be others I'm unaware of. Antipodes K50 also seriously considered as it's very versatile unit. All these have first class power supplies as well. Grimm wasn't in my purview at the time.

Pricing of above units starts at something close to $20k, top flight usb rendering in one box solution costs big bucks in my view. May be reason to reconsider purchasing dac with usb as optimal port for some. Or one can go with two box solution at more reasonable price level.

At this point I'm finding streamers and dacs with optimized AES/EBU to be intriguing, not as difficult, read costly to implement as USB. The above mentioned review of Antipodes K50 compared to Grimm is enlightening. Also like the Antipodes other preferred path of two box solutions via their optimized network ports in K series.

No doubt dac is critical to the entire equation. Don't know what port on Gryphon is best, but whatever dac one utilizes has great import as to streamer chosen. Optimized usb on dac is generally going to be XMOS or Amanero supplied usb board, some may use proprietary solution which may or may not be as good as the two listed above. If usb  not optimized on dac no sense in spending needless money on streamer with best usb utilization.

As for Sabre chip dacs, I've had 9018, 9028 and 9038pro chip dacs. The 9018 getting pretty long in tooth, newer Sabre chips easily win on resolution/transparency. Per usual, implementation is key.

My own streaming solution is bespoke and requires much diy so not for vast majority of streamers who require plug n play. With my streamer I have versatility to try optimized usb, aes/ebu or I2S rendering and choice of HQPlayer, proprietary Stylus and Roon music player software, also one box or multi box solution via Sonore optical.

@nyev Since my final decision for a plug n play streamer was going to be the K50, obviously that would be my choice.

I decided on K50 based on several factors. While I don't find the k50 usb rendering to be among the best, neither is any Aurender offering, even the W20SE isn't up to the best. This usb issue in virtually every single box plug n play streamer is what led me to custom build. Compare top flight usb solutions such as Innuous Phoenix usb or JCAT USB XE, even Sonore OpticalRendu. Three I mention have very nice dedicated power supplies and best clocks. Check out the usb solutions in vast majority of plug n play, you won't see same level of power supply and in most cases, clock. Vast majority have usb clock and ps coming off motherboard, a few have half hearted attempts for ps, perhaps with nice clock.

So, assuming usb less than optimal in all three streamers mentioned above, other ports in each will be optimal. I like the K50 for it's AES/EBU, much easier optimization in both streamers and dac, and many nice reviews using this port. The other thing that sets K50 apart from the others, and was important to me, is the second ethernet port offered, something none of the others offered. This dedicated ethernet is dedicated OUT port for DIRECT connection to either dedicated outboard streamer which will take care of usb issue, or connect to streaming dac, makes it more versatile piece. One can eliminate the need to detour through a switch with this second port, this assumes most direct route is best.  I also like Antipodes take on ps, using both lps and smp based on particular needs. I'm Roon guy as well.

In thinking this out more. If I had top flight usb rendering via Phoenix or others, nice usb on dac and looking at three streamers mentioned here I'd go with K50, which was my plan. With k50, assuming top flight usb in streamer/dac you have the dedicated ethernet port out direct to Phoenix or other usb streamer. I believe this direct out ethernet port in K50 has some optimization, meaning filtering/clocking? So k50 ethernet port out to Phoenix to dac, shazam, top flight usb! And then you still have the optimized AES/EBU port on k50 to play with, this may play out to be better than optimized usb, two for one optimized setujps!

 A lot of this is apples to oranges comparisons, best ports on streamers and dacs make direct comparisons impossible. One should purchase dac and streamer as a package, decide in advance which scheme they're going with, AES/EBU, USB or I2S, both dac and streamer should be optimized for that scheme. I'll reiterate usb most difficult/expensive to optimize, has more inherent disadvantages, usb can have extremely high sound quality, gets bad name from less than optimal implementation in both streamers and dacs.

In question above as to how N20 would compare to Zenith and Phoenix. I'd keep Zenith + Phoenix vs N20, K50 and MU1 IF STAYING WITH USB. Now, if changing rendering schemes anything goes. USB is capable of wonderful rendering, Phoenix is one example of that. Now, is that Phoenix going into dac with optimized usb board, that being XMOS or Amanero, perhaps some proprietary board. If that is the case one isn't going to do much better using another rendering scheme. Assuming the Phoenix going into dac with great usb implementation, there still may be gains to be had with a better streamer serving only server duty. In other words Zenith II may be bettered with newer Zenith or some other streamer.

Point I'm trying to make above. Streaming sound quality can also be improved through better streamer acting ONLY as SERVER.  Lets say one already has optimized usb rendering via Phoenix or another dedicated usb streamer only, assume optimized usb implementation in dac. One can still achieve better sound quality with higher quality streamer, and NOT USING IT'S RENDERING CAPABILITY.  Improved noise suppression, music player processing  ALONE can make substantial improvements in sound quality. I know this from my own experiments with multiple rendering schemes VIA USB.

I have no experience with I2S and coax rendering so above may or may not apply. At one point  thought I'd experiment with I2S via DDC, in the end made no sense considering extra complexity, limitations of DDC equipment itself and less than optimal I2S implementation in  dac.

I'm betting on Phoenix usb vs N20, the only statement Aurender makes in relation to usb port is that it's isolated, doesn't say anything about power supply and clock. The preferred output on it looks to be all the SPDIF,  most of their efforts went here, clocks and power supplies.

This lack of optimal implementation of usb in vast majority of plug n play streamers has been my major issue with them since usb is optimal input on my dac. None of the Aurenders provide for the most optimal usb,  W20SE seems to max out here, still not best available.  Still, in the end it may not matter if using SPDIF with your dac, or with any dac provides better sound than usb.

I continue to be curious about this ongoing lack of optimal usb utilization in so many high end streamers, obviously Innuous and some others know how to do it, to not include it these high priced streamers is a crime in my book. And this is why I became much more interested in custom builds based on Windows platform. I can utilize great variety of optimized, top flight rendering via Pink Faun and JCAT usb, AES/EBU, I2S, coax, net cards. All have superior filtering/power supplies which can be powered via external lps vs motherboard, also have OXCO/Femto clocks, this is superior rendering, anything less is less.

Assuming  these top brand streamer manufacturers actually know how to build and implement top flight usb , and have tested and voiced them with dacs implementing top flight usb boards, I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

@lordmelton Yes, I've gone on and on about usb rendering, and that is because I and others have experienced the benefits of optimal usb rendering via many of the dedicated usb devices out there. Why shouldn't I point out the possible liabilities of less than optimal usb when what constitutes optimal usb is known to at least some manufacturers and users of these manufacturer's devices!

I've stated the possible reasons these streamers don't utilize optimal usb, this being they find other rendering schemes superior. So, whats the problem, I think you have problem because I'm critical of Aurender usb implementation. Charles seem to have understood my conditional criticism of it! I understand you love your Aurender, have need to defend it, I'm agnostic about brands and schemes, have long realized sound preferences are totally subjective, I haven't the slightest idea about sound quality of your setup. However, there are some objective criteria in audio, technical aspects of usb rendering are one of those, high quality filtering, power supply and clocking are optimal, nothing can change this equation unless one wants to simply believe this not to be true.

I do like advice of using Cable Company, I used them extensively years ago when trying to determine the value cables of all kinds bring to systems, very enlightening! Never had issue with returns and I must have gone through hundreds of cables in total.

@nyev I'll be very interested in outcome. SPDIF/ AES/EBU is intriguing in that at least some high end streamer manufacturers use it as their reference scheme. I presume its easier to implement in dacs as well, perhaps even in dacs with optimized usb, AES/EBU could provide best sound quality, you're comparison could enlighten here.

I also really like the Innuos Statement with new Sean Jacobs ps, and they continue to believe in usb, provide optimal, perhaps best usb rendering. For anyone thinking I'm dissing on Aurender, I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me. I've done my due diligence on streamers for quite some time, go to the most experienced streamers on audiophilestyle and whatsbestforums for advice. I believe  all of the above streamers can provide highest sound quality, the best for any single individual's setup is the determining factor, this is choice for that individual to make. Just because I went in different direction doesn't mean I don't highly respect all of these manufacturers.

Since there's been some discussion of rendering, usb in particular. I was just reminded by poster in my network thread about the 5v power feed in usb. In case some aren't aware, some dacs don't require the 5v feed for power or handshake, in this case either purchase usb without the 5v feed or tape over 5v leg inside connector. Noise rides on this 5v line, removing should decrease noise floor. I've long done tape method with my favored AQ Diamond USB.

@nyev Very nice, detailed comparison. My only question is, can there be too much detail, transparency? Maximum detail and transparency has always been my goal in audio reproduction, while there have been periods of times where that added D/T wasn't positive, with tuning and tweaking have usually been able to get back to neutral and/or natural. Based on your comparisons, think I'd enjoy the Innuos sound over Aurender. Still, sounds like you may need more time with Aurender, changes in our perceptions can happen over longer terms, this along with component burn in and tweaking.

As for all network items, I'm also beginning to see more of this daisy chaining with various network devices, and I wonder about the changes 1gb capable items bring to table. I have recently introduced some 1gb capable devices and the change has been good, higher speed ISP service has also been a positive. I'm thinking of upping my service to 1gb since going from 300 to 500gb was so positive.

@lalitk This is good information, but too many dac manufacturers don't mention anything special with inputs other than usb, seems they always mention usb optimization, not enough with others. Presume these dac manufacturers want to be all things for all people, don't want to limit sales.

Chord is another company that mentions superior input, in their case optical. The issue some have with inputs other than usb is limitation on up,over sampling acceptance.

This all helps to confirm that dac and streamer is best perceived as a package deal, kind of like speakers and amps. Match best output or rendering scheme on streamer output to optimal input on dac, this should result in optimal sound quality. Doing this along with optimizing network and you're done! The network should be the most complex issue to solve, so many reportedly excellent choices.

My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don't make clear which port is optimal. I think it pretty clear with usb inputs, generally going to be XMOS or Amanero board, may be some proprietary solution, generally going to be nice filtering, dedicated power supply, quality clock. Not so clear what makes SPDIF or I2S optimized on dacs? Here's some interesting info found on that special forum some love to hate, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/study-is-i%C2%B2s-interface-better-for-dacs-than-s-pdif-or-usb.7105/

@nyev Your conclusion in regard to usb seems solid. Looking at how the usb implemented Phoenix vs N20 this is what should be expected.

I'd be very interested in your comparison of AES if you did get the Antipodes, I came very, very close to purchasing the K50 for the very reason of comparing SPDIF vs usb. In your case you'd also be comparing to Aurender for this rendering mode. The other thing that really sold me on Antipodes was the optimized direct network output port for use in dual streamer setups which I've found  to be optimal in my setups up to present.

@latik In stating I was sold on Antipodes, I was within days of purchasing K50 when I was notified the custom build streamer I ended up purchasing came up for sale. Again, K50 was my choice based on the second ethernet port optimized for output to second streamer, as you know still my preference at this point. I had nothing against the Aurenders or Innuos, simply fact Antipodes had the nice AES AND network outputs.

I've never been able to step back from more resolution, transparency once I've heard it, my goal is progress, lower resolution, transparency  is regression in my book. Certainly there have been times when the extra transparency and resolution has caused hits in other areas, very similar to what OP is experiencing, but I've usually been able to tune and tweak to get the balance I'm looking for. And there have been times when getting that fine balance was unobtainable, in that case the responsible component was sold off. When this happened another  higher resolving, transparent component was purchased to take the offending components place, just couldn't give up on higher resolution once heard.

On paper the new Innuos Statement looks very, very  nice.

I dealt with Cable Company for years, never a problem returning a cable, this with literally hundreds of cable over years. I understand one may have issues with any single rep at the Cable Co, I had issues with one individual there, refused to deal with him anymore. Funny thing is at the end of all that cabling demoing I ended up worrying less about cabling, kind of set it and forget it mindset.

@charles1dad Different strokes for different folks. I want max res and trans, I find extracting max info draws me further into music, Following is usual response I have from system these days. Early in listening session, listening to sound, admiring it, followed by music intensity mode which can last for hours with short intervals of listening to the sound. Great thing is admiring quality of sound is very satisfying for me these days,  this need  to admire sound is what sets audiophiles apart from 'normal' mortals, I'll also posit audiophiles will always listen to sound at some point in listening sessions. Quality sound should elicit an inherent pleasure, one that's  quite separate from the music, analysis of sound quality shouldn't be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

I've found 'closed in' sq typical early in burn in period. Fuses do make a difference, forgot about this in case of streamer, will try the purple.

When speaking of deriving pleasure from the sound of my system vs music, its not a battle, rather I take great pleasure from both. Certainly my immersion into music has followed with better sound, but better sound has also brought a new appreciation of that sound, the analytical mode of listening is no longer something I want to avoid.  Now I can relate to the need to get away from the analytic mode of listening, in the sense this will uncover some already known flaw or perhaps new flaw. In this case the analytical mode is not bringing us full measure of pleasure, its simply a utilitarian mode required in creating our 'perfect' system. Easy to understand the desire to escape this and fall into the music loving mode. Perhaps I am like Matisse in that I can now derive pleasure from what could be analagous to a painting, in that I perceive my audio system as a totally unique 'work of art'. Think of all the work and time that goes into building our systems, in my case nearly fifty years of listening to audiophile systems and or building systems, think of all the resources we expend in our never ending search for this 'perfect' system.  So now we reach this point where the analysis of sound no longer brings displeasure, only pleasure. This becomes OUR great work of art, we take great pleasure in the 'shapes and hues' of our creation. Hues and shapes in regard to audio reproduction is the overall gestalt of our creation, this holistic perspective in regard to sound can bring great pleasure, the SOUND is OUR masterpiece, the music is another person's masterpiece.

And this mode of listening need not compete or interfere with our immersion into the music, it only ADDS to it. I have to seriously question whether I'm  alone in taking this amount of pleasure from APPRECIATION of the sound ? Hard for me to believe all of us don't take some measure of pleasure from our creations or works of art!

@charles1dad  When speaking of 'different strokes for different folks' I was referring to a  preference for the color of our systems on a warm to cool scale, romantic being on warm side, analytical on cold, cool end. I've built systems and heard systems that reside at nearly all places on  this scale. Based on quite large sample size I've come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I'd prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev  sound analysis.

I agree dac maybe limiting factor here. If dac not fully optimized usb and roughly equal to AES input, I'd expect streamer with optimized AES to have superior SQ. If this were my setup and comparison, my next comparison would be to another streamer with optimized AES, perhaps the deficiencies heard with Aurender AES may be alleviated.  Assuming usb in Gryphon not fully optimized, streamer with optimized usb in not allowing full usb potential to be heard. In general terms I suspect any dac with less than optimal usb will sound better with other inputs, streamer optimized for outputs other than usb will only increase the advantages of these other inputs.

@nyev How much streamers change in future is hard to say, streamer innovations do come fast.

I demoed a variety of power conditioners year ago using Cable Co. lending library. All top of line variety, Shunyata, PS Audio, Audience Adept, none gave me what I was looking for, Audience was close. Like Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles and Jantzen Superior Z capacitors. Balanced transformer proved out best, mods only made it better. Amps always straight into wall.

I'd sure like to see top of line streamer shoot out, well over $100k worth of streamers in direct competition would be awesome! All ports in streamer compared using a variety of top flight dacs with various optimized ports.

I do like the idea of changing out dac, but it seems dac delivers things he likes, just not with one streamer.

The fact so many happy with both Innuos and Aurender servers under review here makes me want to think issue is elsewhere. I suppose the only thing we all can offer is the things we'd do if in same position. Since I'm diy and modifier, whenever I have these dilemmas I tune by changing out capacitors, resistors, internal wiring, cabling, etc. If the components are close to delivering, these things can offer a solution.

@charles1dad I wasn't aware Chris offered the R1. In any case the R1 is my max resolving outlet, the PorterPorts which were Albert Porter's modified, I think Hubbels, are for added warmth.

@nyev As mentioned previously, I'd go with K50 next, guess I'm biased as this was going to be my streamer of choice.

I can recommend the Musetec as purchase piece, Holo May KTE great choice as well. I've seen both of these compared to much more expensive dacs, held their own or were preferred in some cases. KTE may be highest resolving R2R dac, and the Sabre 9038 pro chips in 005 are extremely revealing, transparent, both are musical dacs to boot. Both excel with usb input, some have used other inputs to good effect. Both of these dacs not out of place with any system at any price.

Ok, I have this observation in regard to MU1, look at this internal photo of Grimm, https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/grimm/2/. Now compare this to N20,https://www.aurenderamerica.com/products/n20 Aurender looks far more substantive to me, power supply alone seems much substantial.

Now, as far as impact on sound quality, I can only speculate without hearing, but when it comes to choosing equipment for purchase I rely on internal photos in part. I'd be more likely to purchase N20 vs Grimm in this case.