Totally lostinSeattle- When I say something seems like snake oil I am most certainly NOT saying that my mind is made up,... Okay... will keep this in mind. Seriously. Will be used later. Read on. What I AM saying is that when there is no rational basis to accept a manufacturer’s claim as to how something works, and they provide not a shred of what should be easy-to-provide corroborating measurements to demonstrate effectiveness, it makes me highly skeptical. What millercarbon actually said: These marketing stories are just that, stories. A more succinct formulation, don’t you agree? AC side tweaks, which have nothing at all to do with the musical signal. Uh, but your mind, didn’t you say it was most certainly not, er I mean NOT made up? I am most certainly NOT saying that my mind is made up,... Okay. Well, told you it would be used later. Unless your power quality is terrible, AC side stuff just isn’t going to make a difference. Yeah, yeah, we know. But you’re still open minded. Right. Previous posts: how would a power cord make a difference? and Interestingly, I haven’t really read about power cords before
It would appear not only is your mind made up, but made up on zero evidence. Zero reading, even! Your own words! What millercarbon actually said: The people screaming snake oil are no better. They know even less. At least the people who pretend to know why might actually bother to try the stuff and listen and use it and maybe learn a thing or two some day. The snake oil people, what they are really saying is their mind is made up, you’re all suckers, and no way they will ever even try to listen and learn. We can see now why you’re so upset: nailed it. Oh well. Never too late. If you really are in Seattle then you’re within driving distance of being able to hear for yourself just how incredible things we cannot explain can make a system sound. Blow. Your. Mind. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
AddPowr’s explanation doesn’t make any sense to me and yes, it sounds like snake oil. Power factor correction in my Furman Elite 20PFI conditioner consists of huge inductor in series followed by large capacitor. It is designed to store energy for huge current peaks drawn by the amp. Most of the linear power supplies draw current in very short spikes of big amplitude (causing big voltage drops). Perhaps AddPowr’s device consists of something similar (inductor+capacitor), while their explanation about harmonics is designed purely to impress. It is also possible it’s just a placebo effect, but there is nothing wrong with it, as long as it lasts. Either way - if you like it then enjoy it and don’t think too much. |
@lostinseattle -
I'll try to explain it (ElectraClear) in general terms -
Consider the idea of a clock and dividing its rate or frequency into slower and slower rates. Now the clock has to be a fast rising edge, like a pulse, so as to trigger the dividing process. The outputs are square wave signals. What is a square wave? If you look up Fourier and his discovery of harmonics and transforms, you will learn that they are comprised of sine/cosine waves of a variety of related harmonics to the fundamental.
I presume that there is a situation that mirrors or reflects the pulsing action of a square wave onto the AC line however minute that may be.
This mechanism eludes me.But it must be something in the semiconductor transistor output or the small em field generated that allows this transfer. Not sure here.
Accepting this -
This is a pulsing event and not "ripple" but more of a defined square wave form of very small amplitude and lower in frequency(s) than 60 Hz. If this activity gets reflected onto the AC line then it is likely that it will not be filtered completely by power supply filters. What we're talking about is sine waves of a harmonic relationship extending to, mathematically speaking, infinity per Fourier. The frequencies of this harmonic series in the audio band will be present on the voltage reference, the DC voltage reference. This means that the DC line contains some harmonic information, albeit small. But small goes a long way.
An increase of 0.1 volt change from 1.0 v is 1.1 v and is equivalent to a gain of 0.83 dB.
Now the idea of resonance is vibrating at a similar or like frequency.
When this happens there is an energy transfer or increase in beats ala a tuning fork when in resonance with a like frequency.
Like that, the harmonic resonates with a similar or like frequencies in the audio amplifier. There are many harmonics in the square wave form so they too, will resonate with whatever frequency(s) come into the amp.
What you here will be an increase in harmonic information as the signal passes through the amplifier to speaker.
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"Generally, audio power supplies do not filter noise under 40 kHz, no?
You can put all the LRCs you want on a DC power supply and as many farads as you want. I will say that you will not find many supplies filtering under 20 Hz."
My goodness. Setting aside for a minute the absurd contention that injecting a low frequency AC harmonic that transmits through the supply is somehow helpful, from where comes the learning that a power supply cannot filter low frequencies? The first stage of the supply is a full wave rectifier - either a four diode bridge, or two diodes with a center-tapped transformer. The bridge does not care the frequency. When the voltage is positive relative to its bias, it conducts. When negative, it does not. It will rectify a 1 Hz sine wave just as happily as a 60 Hz sine wave. This is my last comment on this as the futility is obvious. P.T. Barnum was a smart man. If I were to spend money on Add-Powr, I would think it more beneficial to buy the company’s stock than its product. |
There’s an account of an applicant for an opening in Thomas Edison’s research lab. Edison himself conducted the interview over a bowl of soup during lunch. The job candidate proceeded to add salt to his soup without tasting it first. He did not get the job. |
OK bartholomew. Lets run an experiment. You have to be blindfolded and sitting in your listening position. Have a friend or your wife plug and unplug the unit. All he or she can say is "OK" when they make a change. You say "on" or "off" after every "OK" That person keeps a record of your responses by writing down R for right and W for wrong. Record 50 responses then determine the percentage of right and wrong answers.
Let us know the results. |
A simpler solution to the controversy is for anyone on this forum to call the company and confirm a money back guarantee from AddPowr. Then you, trusting your own ears, can decide for yourself whether to keep or return the Electraclears. I was told by the company that I could return them for a full refund. I'm keeping them.
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“Lets run an experiment. You have to be blindfolded and sitting in your listening position. Have a friend or your wife plug and unplug the unit. All he or she can say is "OK" when they make a change. You say "on" or "off" after every "OK" That person keeps a record of your responses by writing down R for right and W for wrong. Record 50 responses then determine the percentage of right and wrong answers.
Let us know the results.”
mijostyn, when was the last time you conducted this experiment and what was the product? |
@bartholomew
Good for you! You spent your money buying the item, you took the time to let us know your impressions of it, now someone is asking you to recruit your wife to test it 50 times no less and report back to him ASAP. You seem like I to spend more time in front of your system than behind it, enjoy it and thanks for taking the time. Life is short. Stay safe. |
Once again, those who clamor most often for blind listening tests reveal they don’t have a clue about valid testing: mijostynYou have to be blindfolded and sitting in your listening position. Have a friend or your wife plug and unplug the unit. All he or she can say is "OK" when they make a change. You say "on" or "off" after every "OK" That person keeps a record of your responses by writing down R for right and W for wrong. Record 50 responses then determine the percentage of right and wrong answers. Any listener would naturally score 50 out of 50 on that test, or 100 out of 100 if they could stay awake long enough. That’s because the person conducting the test is telling the listener that they’re making a change to one of just two options, so if it’s changed from one it must be the other. That’s pretty silly. Valid blind testing requires a lot more than a blindfold. Once you understand how cumbersome and tedious and time consuming the process is, you’ll understand why such testing has so little value to the typical audiophile. Or perhaps you’ve already learned that and so have just not bothered to yourself conduct your own tests. If I’m mistaken, please share the results of your tests. I’m genuinely interested. |
@ladickinson - You say "low frequency AC harmonic". The signal in question is not related to the AC 50/60 Hz sine. I repeat - It is not an AC harmonic. There is no injection of an AC sine harmonic. Do you get it?
Rather, I suggest a low frequency signal, presumably a square wave, that is the result of signal processing circuit design, that is impressed upon the line. It is the square wave that is composed of a harmonic series of sine waves.
Not "absurd" imo.
I stand by my statement of power supply filtering in audio gear.
I didn't say that a power supply cannot filter low frequencies.
It appears you are locked into a fixed position of intellectual judgment and therefore dismiss any idea that disagrees with your intellect.
On an another note, it is up to the manufacturer /designer to reveal the complete recipe of its unique "sauce." |
I don’t know about the test it 50 times thing but in general if one is going to recommend a poorly understood solution of any sort, especially a pricier solution, doing diligence to verify findings can only help. Making a change and saying you hear a (positive) difference of some sort is something......but not much, especially when that is all there is for people to go on.
It’s ok to do it once and say what you hear, but not Ok to jump to the conclusion that you are infallible and others will surely hear the same thing. Even worse then is to discount others when they report something different even if based on similar low level of diligence. |
Thanks, Spenav! My favorite music listening experience is the live concert. Now that it's on hold due to the pandemic, my audio system is a consolation. If I can get close to the "absolute sound" of live music, I'm willing to wait until the virus passes. What other choice does one have? I'm truly grateful for innovations that improve on my listening pleasure. Thanks again for the encouragement.
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Don't knock it till you've tried it. |
Please understand that all of these formulas are much easier to understand than my divorce agreement.
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Nobody listens to millercarbon, why would anybody start now! Read some of his threads, he’s the only 1 that can say a tweak works and a tweak that has very little impact on SQ, MC claims it’s an “amazing” upgrade. MC needs to get at least a midfi system before a tweak can be used to see if it actually improves or degrades the sound, not all tweaks improve the SQ, some degrade it. IMO, most tweaks need a good resolving system to be able to hear an improvement. Same goes for cables, but not saying cables are tweaks at all.
Power related items can have Big improvements in SQ. For example: the ps audio regenerators along with good power cables provide a big SQ improvement, same goes for using balanced power products. But if you go cheap and buy monster power conditioners, they actually degrade SQ. |
@lostinseattle
Your comments to @millercarbon are right on. He is a no-it-all that likes to bully people. I think he is an insecure trust baby that doesn't have anything else to do so he comes on here and talks jibberish and offends people. It makes him feel important. |
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I put one on my refrigerator. Holy cow, my beer has never been colder and the refrigerator no longer makes noise..... |
@bemused
I wish McDonalds would do that for the special sauce on Big Macs.
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Id convince myself it sounded better also if I pissed away 300 dollars on an outlet. lmao |
The Mayans used human sacrifice to please the gods so the sun would rise in the morning. This seemed to be a good tweak. There was not a lot of science behind it but the results were very clear. These things need to be tried first and judged second. |
"It's all in the mind, y'know", George Harrison, 1968. |
Ground your system.
Have good outlets
Please plug your amp directly into the outlets.
Frontend electronics could go into filter
devices.
Dedicated lines. |
Ah, there's Chuck Miller showing off what he claims is his system. It changed from two weeks ago when I saw it. He must have got some better photos to Photoshop. What happened to the picture of the ruler?
He's a troll.
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@tuberollin
That version is an earlier one. I have the latest, carbon fiber cylinder that only takes up the space of one outlet, not covering the second
one in the duplex. It's twice as strong as the original, from what I'm told. I moved one Electraclear this morning to the top outlet of the duplex and my power conditioner is in the bottom outlet of the same duplex. More pronounced effect than when it was in a power strip.
I think it's the ideal configuration. If I had a quad outlet, I could fit two Electraclears and the power conditioner together. Might wind up installing a hospital grade quad outlet. |
It's all in the mind, y'know", George Harrison, 1968.
I can hear George saying that in his cockney accent...no system needed. My refrigerator is noisy. Hmmmm...... |
@bartholomew
My Shunyata power distribution uses a similar device. There's sells for about $225 now, I paid $100. It's a simple setup with a Venom HC cables to a PS8 power strip. One of the outlets has the Defender Power Conditioning Module. The mains line is a Delta NR which is apparently replaced by Alpha NR.
I got great results.
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If a device adds harmonics, the voltage is going to change See http://ielogical.com/assets/Audio/misc/SubHarmMod.png for a simple example. Power supply diodes only conduct for a fraction of the AC cycle. If the AC voltage is modulated due to increased harmonics, it is going to change the diode conduction period which in turn will modulate the DC supply and not in concert with the music demand. If the added harmonics decrease the voltage at a musical peak, clipping is more likely. Never a good thing.Some like valve rectifiers because they modulate the power supply in concert with the program. More than once, a new WhizBang has elicited the response: "You’re freaking joking, right?" |
This is free advertising masquerading as an infomercial masquerading as honest customer testimony. Funny how I JUST received an email on this very same company offering a deal on these resonators, or whatever they are on audiogon. I hate this kind of stuff.
SCAM. |
I am always marveled at the arrogance of man thinking he knows everything there is to know . |
Damping noise by elevating signal seems as important as damping vibration. In fact, damping noise at the source, which is the electrical supply, may be more noticeable than preventing micro vibrations that occur after the fact. |
Bartholomew, meet guitarsam, guitarsam, meet bartholomew. You boys have a good time now. |
There are a lot of opinions on this thread from people that have no reason to have an opinion.
You have nothing to talk about unless you have heard the item discussed. |
I am a complete skeptic when it comes to these kinds of things and as yet have not bought into any power cord, fuse, etc. products or theories. The reports on this device I found so fascinating that I ordered a 30 day return policy B-stock Symphony Standard model listed normally for $375 but sold as a B-stock item by the manufacturer for $195 shipped. Just couldn't resist. I look forward to reviewing and reporting back my experience. My expectations are not high or particularly optimistic. We shall see. Later.
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I'm getting disillusioned with this hifi .
I have spent not an inconsiderate amount on my 2nd system here in Thailand my primary system in Oz.
Source exclusively streaming from TIDAL.
90% of streams suffer from distortion as a result of DRC- I am assuming.
Some streams are perfection, so I'm assuming my kit is ok,but am I making an imperfect assumption? |
bobby1945
... Source exclusively streaming from TIDAL.
90% of streams suffer from distortion as a result of DRC- I am assuming ... @bobby1945 what is "DRC?"
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There are a lot of opinions on this thread from people that have no reason to have an opinion.
You have nothing to talk about unless you have heard the item discussed.
My hearing is shot. I can't hear confirmation bias. |
It’s worth reiterating what jperry wrote,
“There are a lot of opinions on this thread from people that have no reason to have an opinion.
You have nothing to talk about unless you have heard the item discussed.”
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I am an EE engineer by training, so when encountering pseudo-tech jargon I tend to be a bit more skeptical than the average person. What I mean by pseudo-tech jargon is blending real scientific principles or equations with non-technical or marketing in a compelling cocktail that ultimately claims a positive effect, but never quite telling a scientifically coherent story along the way. The highly technical concepts are often times sufficient to reassure the non technical minded people that real science was employed in the making of the product, getting their guard down.
Then again, exotic effects do exist and from when initially discovered the science may lag behind in explaining how & why it works. Sometimes the science can lag years, decades or even centuries after the phenomenon has been initially described or discovered.
But none of this should matter. To my way of thinking, the burden of proof should not belong to the consumer, but rather to the producer of the technology. I should not have to buy a $300 product in order to find out if it works or not. Instead, the manufacturer should publish before & after type of proof. In the case of this product, perhaps show the “before” and “after” output signal of an amplifier or a speaker (since 1-2dB are the claimed improvement). Better yet and for even greater believability, send it to an independent testing facility and publish the results.
The fact that it isn’t offered raises some alarms for me personally. This doesn’t automatically imply it doesn’t work. Just that, IMO proof should be honestly and transparently offered by those who make the product.
I’m not telling anybody how to spend their money, nor do I intend to insult anyone along the way. |
Appreciate you sharing such a relatively inexpensive tweak with huge returns as you have described.. If by chance others don't get the same results, they can always come back to this thread and express their disappointment. However with such a generous return policy, how can you go wrong?
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@phd
My sentiments exactly. BTW, my analog has benefited as well. I think it's apt to say the Electraclears "purify" sound. It's subjective, but I'm
enjoying it. |
I would think that an oscilloscope with logging features would enhance any measured testing. Words just cant make up for measured results. |
I agree with MillerCarbon more often and rarely with of the naysayers.
I use PPT products but found that too many Omega Mats over isolation power transformers, rear of speakers and power boxes can result in a loss of air/ambiance/highs and too much mid-range emphasis. I also found out from the manufacturer after having found my system sounding weird was that PPT products should not be used where there are magnets. By adding and subtracting the number and type of Mats I was able to fine tune their use and benfit. I now use 2 Omega+Mats on power boxes, 2 on top and 2 beneath my isolation power transformer and 1 on the rear of my speakers at the crossover section. My friend who introduced me to them has no magnets in his system and installed all the PPT products 10X to 20X what I have now. It works for his system.
I also use SR HFT system with 32 placed as indicated in the instructions for Levels 1 through 5 and speaker kit. I tried altering some of their order and resulted in worse sound. The only one that does not work is the HFX on the tweeters (emphasizes the highs/frequency range out of balance). Neither the PPTs nor the SR products give me adequate scientific reasoning for their successful use but that doesn't stop me.
I tried over a dozen types of footers for my equipment and ended up with various Stillpoints. Those have a stronger scientific basis than SR and PPT products. |
@fleschler
I agree with MillerCarbon more often and rarely with of the naysayers.
Yea, that's about the way I imagine a lot of us think of you, a MC clone. And I like PPT products. |
There is no way a clone could survive the ego transplant..
BTW, last time I checked n=30 |
Nobody here has an SPL meter to level match, n=30 is interplanetary science |
Here’s the deal... and it’s simple. My industry is probably more riddled with snake oil than any other, though not quite as pricy as some of the exotic oils in the Audio Game.... here is my answer when asked if I think product x “works”. Do you feel a difference as described? If yes, then guess what? It works. Even if it is 100% BS intellectually... if you hear it, it works. Doesn’t matter why. Enjoy the goods.
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fleschler, a man of distinction, writes: I agree with MillerCarbon more often and rarely with of the naysayers. As for the rest of you: If I removed from my system everything that cannot be adequately explained scientifically to the satisfaction of certain people here my system would degenerate to the point it would be merely clearly superior to theirs. Then if I were to also remove everything they think has to be double-blind proven to work even after being scientifically explained (because, I know, makes no sense- but you never know with these people) minus all that my system would be merely somewhat better, sort of. But not better in the 'whole other realm' 'what were you thinking' 'as if' kind of way it is now. Gape. Drool cup. Rock your world. All thanks to a bunch of stuff nobody can explain but everyone can easily hear. Here is a perfect example: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367Take a real good look at picture #10. Compare closely with #41 & #42. In particular, pay real close attention to all the boxes and every single wire. Study each one. I am not giving it away. People need to learn to think for a change. There's something very unusual going on that should make anyone with a lick of sense stand up and go WTF?!? But it won't. Because for all the techno blather of the posers pretending to be all sciency, they don't have the first clue what they're looking at. Follow the wires. Its that simple. I spotted it this time last year, or rather pieced it together reading people's comments. Easy if you know anything about electricity. Otherwise, impossible. Which yes that's a challenge. Put your money where your mouth is. Prove you have half a clue. Point out the puzzling odd whatever. If you can find it. Talked to the manufacturer, confirmed no one else got it, including even the electricians who installed The Gate, which is another highly effective audio enigma. You are indeed wise fleschler to go with what you hear and to not worry overly much with what you can explain. Not a one of these guys demanding explanations has the slightest clue what's going on in those photos, so why should we care what they think? Seriously. Its right there in the pictures. Figure it out, sciency guys. If you can. 😂 |
