Roger Modjeski (Music Reference, RAM Tubes) had a thread dedicated to fuses in his AudioCircle Forum. In it Modjeski disclosed what he had discovered during his investigation into some of the audiophile fuses, and how they compared to the Littlefuses he supplied in his amplifiers. One of the biggest boutique fuse makers went to work on the AudioCircle honchos, and Modjeski's Forum was closed. The thread is still available for reading, for those who are interested enough to search for it.
Fuse Direction for Pass Labs Amp and Preamp
I am going to re fuse my Pass X250.8 and XP-32 with Synergistic Research purple fuses in a couple of days. I was hoping to get advice on a rule of thumb for direction of the fuses. My instinct tells me to start by installing the fuse by the direction of the lettering on the fuses. I am thinking that the direction should be the lettering left to right with the beginning of the lettering facing out of the amp and the end of the lettering facing into the amp. Does this sound right?
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Some of the boutique fuses we've seen are inferior and some are OK so there's not a good answer to this question. We've seen some that employ a Teflon tube to damp the motion of the fast blow element; this type of fuse might not blow correctly since the metal can go to liquid and still be supported by the tubing- at that point would eventually become a plasma. I'd stay away from any fuses constructed in this manner. We've seen some that don't hold the current they are rated for and some that won't blow until you're a bit over spec! None of these are good situations. Having an equipment failure on this account wouldn't be a good thing so when people ask me about this on the phone I let them know what we've seen. |
For your control group let me recommend these. https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/cartridge-fuses/5x20mm-fuses/285/285001.aspx And yes, places like Mouser sell them individually or in small quantities. |
Would it be fair to say (or infer) that some of these boutique fuses are somewhere along the arc between a bog standard fuse and those FNM fuses? That they are definitely a step up but still nowhere near a FNM fuse? That could be why we hear a difference: they're simply a better made fuse, kinda like what you got with the FNMs. Just saying.. All the best, |
You might be interested to know that my LP mastering lathe, which was originally built about 1949, sat atop a custom table that featured adjustable points for feet. So the idea of the points that so many audiophiles use has been around a very long time. You might also find this interesting: You can look at any amplifier as having a perfect amplifying element with a distortion element (nonlinearity) in series with the signal. Put another way the differences you hear in amplifiers is simply the distortion signature. Because of this, if you have the distortion signature of a tube amp and were somehow able to put it in a solid state amp, the solid state amp would sound like a tube amp. We discovered how true that really is when we were developing our class D amplifier, in which the non-linearities tend to generate lower ordered harmonics rather than higher orders, so it has the smoothness and lack of harshness you expect from a really good tube amplifier although a bit more transparent. It is the distortion signature of tubes which has kept them in business so long after being declared ’obsolete’ in the early 1960s. But now you can get the same distortion signature in a solid state amp (although maybe 2 orders of magnitude lower, allowing for greater transparency) with the same liquid mids and highs. We’ve encountered cheap fuses that are not worth using. A a good quality fuse like Bussman or Littlefuse is hard to beat: if you are trying to use a boutique fuse, the former brands should be your ’control group’. In 1990 when designing our MA-2 we recognized that fuses were a problem, so we use a different kind known as an FNM. https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/fuses/bussmann-series-supplemental-fuses/supplemental-fuses-midget/bus-ele-ds-2028-fnm.pdf This is a physically larger fuse employing dual elements and a larger fuse holder that exerts much more pressure on the fuse contacts, which are also much larger. They and their fuse holders easily outperform any boutique fuse made today. We did this and also used dual power cords on each chassis to minimize the internal and external effects of AC power wiring. So please take it that when I say the direction of a fuse isn’t a thing, its with the awareness of fuse effects going back over 30 years, long before there were any boutique fuses.
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I don't think a single person HERE is implying Atmasphere or the product he manufactures is anything but "Top of Line", "Best in His Field". Please understand other professionals do exist outside the audiophile community that also encompass most of the disciplines for building stereo related gear, including the furniture audiophiles use. Audiophiles may be a select community, but they have reached way beyond a lot of the older facts that use to be accepted as gospel. Cable is cable. Fuses are fuses. OAK is the only speaker finish. Class Ds suck. Why are you still using tubes? Concrete everything to the floor. Speaker spikes work. and the biggest of all, Come to AG and get a blast from the past. Everyone has peers. I don't want to equate emotional attachment to a great person in leu of the fact, other people build crazy good amps TOO. Some not for a living but for pure pleasure and because they can take the time a lot of great production manufactures, CAN'T. If they did it would cost me or you 60K plus ++++. I can't afford Ralphs Best and a 2+ year wait. At least his company offers it. Most don't. I like Dodd's mods. Try to find his work. Samra's Mac builds, Herron's, there is a few great builders and more than one size fits all. I like things MY way, when I pay. From OHM mouth to this screen verbatim. I'm on line with him in real time face to face. "The Finnish people have BIG rabbits" "They eat a lot of duck eggs too." "I wonder if they quarantine rabbits? I bet they do. Get a bill for 20K behind a rabbit." "The Finnish people have LOTS of tubes too. They could hold out until the second coming. The Finns are hoarders, Thank God. They actually laugh about Putin's Russia. They have a lot better equipment too. 7-800 miles of borders with that Bully for years. It's no big thing to them. They HATE Putin's puppets. Seagal is the NEW word for $hit in Finland. Get the Seagal off your BOOT" It's all the time I have, back to work. SLOW day. |
I tested a pile of SR fuses years ago and noted the results here. They’re dangerous (rated wrong at times so they blow, leading to suggestions that you should use a higher rating than the gear called for...wow) and useless nonsense. Some have claimed their system sounds "out of phase" when the proper fuse direction is wrong or bloviated about how astonishingly fabulous the fuses "sound." Hey, it’s a FUSE... Why haven’t they caught on among manufacturers or most of everybody else? Hmmm...I recently bought a Pass XA25 and called Pass Labs to ask some dumb question and wound up having a great conversation with ’em, but really...I suggest you call Pass and ask about fuses...let us know what they say... please... |
When I bought the Duelund CAST-PIOs for my Carys; I asked which lead was the outer foil. "Doesn't matter!", they said. I've had a habit of testing everything for noise/best performance, before committing to an install, for decades. Just an FYI (If one doesn't own an O-scope): Just rig an RCA lead with gator clips and plug it into one of an old receiver/integrated's PHONO inputs, with the volume all the way down. With a speaker attached, of course. Hook up the cap's leads and LIGHTLY grip (especially films) the sides of the cap, while slowly raising the volume. Keep it real low! Change the component's input selector, and switch the cap's leads (don't move the volume). Switch the selector back to PHONO. One direction (when the outer foil's lead is connected to the Positive Phono lead) will result in much more hum. For the lowest noise in a signal circuit; connect the outer foil to the lower impedance (signal source). OH, and: It REALLY DID matter! More info: https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/where-to-connect-the-outside-foil-on-capacitors |
I thank everyone for a little spring in your step.. I thought I was going to fall into a coma these last couple of months.. :-) LOL From Kimber about Kimber KAPs: "All values of Kimber Kap have a red lead at one end. The red lead should go towards the +DC voltage, or away from the –DC voltage. In coupling (DC Blocking) applications the red lead is the signal output end (it will be the same as the +side of an electrolytic capacitor in this position). In a loudspeaker crossover, the red lead should go towards the drive unit + terminal. The capacitors can be used safely in either direction but the marking indicates which way will minimise hum pickup." This can be figured out with 99% of NP caps. Kimber just realizes some measurements aren’t accounted for in the OLDER "this is how it works" crowd. Does it make a difference? I repeat from KIMBER. "indicates which way will minimize hum pickup.". It’s showing where the outside of the film wrap is. Kimber seems to think there is a direction in a NON directional cap. :-) I just happen to agree with the manufacture too. Stealth Caps work VERY well in the right direction. I just installed a set in the Cary and added Deulund .01 bypass (in the right direction).. The umbilical cable was replaced with Kimber and I rewired both preamp and power supply in the right direction. It was wired in both direction from the factory. It’s not now. How does it sound?. Like it need 200 hours to break in. BTW I’m running my monitors at 12 ohms (static). 400Gan for the summer. What a nice sounding amp. |
Perhaps I should have said, "That's why there have been so many theories and theorems." ie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_electromagnetic_theory Many folks are still wrestling with the High School level understanding, of shoving electrons around, in a conductor. Such that do, are still stuck with theories proposed in the 1800s. To help you understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, a copy/paste from another post: The goal of the Scientific Method: to answer WHY observed phenomena occur. The steps of the scientific method include: 1) asking a QUESTION about something you observe. 2) doing background research to learn what is already known about the topic. 3) constructing a, "hypothesis". 4) experimenting or testing the hypothesis. 5) OBSERVING the results 6)ANALYZING the data from the experiment and drawing CONCLUSIONS*. ttps://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/scientific-method-steps When one of the Sciences runs into a phenomena, for which it hasn't yet figured out a method of testing (experimenting) the HYPOTHESIS, or: can't yet understand (analyze) whatever data might been found during experimentation, there can be no categorical, answer* to the question, "WHY?", and a, "THEORY" is proposed. *Without definite conclusions, there can be no categorical answers.
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People risk their lives on electrical theory, just as they do the theory of flight. I suspect you might mean 'hypothesis' rather than theory.
My hearing certainly isn't what it was, but I hear differences easily enough. However my employees' hearing is much better and they couldn't hear any significant difference either; neither could the guy that lent us the cables! That might be different if the speakers were 4 Ohms but they are 16. That makes a big difference.
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"It’s funny that us audiophiles sometimes believe we understand electronics better than electrical engineers do. If DCS, Pass, and other good brands ship their products with standard cables and fuses - shouldn’t we be able to reject the urge to upgrade those?" If you leave the "US" and "WE" out of the post you might be close. I’ve worked around a lot of different engineers. Every sound engineer was working on sound walls and every EE was working on CANN Buss/OBD2 equipment. They normally were working out a way to add another computer to the mix. Sound is as subjective as anything on earth and very prone to BIAS. I understand that. The difference with people that are PAID to listen vs people that PAY to listen is pretty simple. Music SQ vs a strange noise in the engine compartment is just a little different skill set. It took many mechanics decades of learning to hear and then feel a potential issue. I bow to only a few when it comes to better hearing and with better skills. I suggest many people and the way they learn to listen is the greater issue. It’s only a problem if "WE" can’t learn to change and learn a BETTER way to listen.
With that said, what can I say about this: "Our customer that brought them in exclaimed how they were so transformative. We ran a comparison, just for fun, between them and our shop cables, which we made up from 10ga oxygen free copper wire. Everyone in the shop was challenged to hear a difference. Our speakers though are 16 Ohms and speaker cables are far less critical when driving 16 Ohms as opposed to 8 or 4 Ohms." OK you got me, you win, 10ga OFC spools cable is just as good as SRs speaker cabling. I suppose you hooked it all up and did a side by side on two identical systems too? GIVE ME A BREAK, you did NOT. Second if you can’t hear the difference in a UP-OCC/teflon weave from your 10ga OFC spool wire. QUIT trying your hearing is SHOT. Stick with the old scope. The thing about any mechanic worth his salt is to question his/herself abilities before others do.. I’m not the one that couldn’t hear the difference. I suggest a little training is in order. Start with the easier ones first. 2-4ohm 90-92% efficient speakers. The more efficient the speaker, the easier it is to learn about cables, not WIRE. It’s not hard to understand that a mechanic is usually a pretty skilled engineer with dirt under his fingernails. Certainly had to go to school a LOT longer. I still attend 3-6 classes per year, 40 years after my Master Certs (7 years). I taught hydraulics with OHM for over 20 years. We both worked with James Bongiorno and a few of his crew. He would chew anyone out for not paying attention to single wire or cabling. 35 years ago? He did some amp board work for a series of cranes we has issues with in the heat.. Carver use to teach a winding class for 2nd year guys. Cheapest guy I ever new, but not with other people’s money.. :-) Can’t hear a difference? "just for fun" try to learn a new skill set. My best to you all. PS Ralph, I think you're one of the finest contributors to the forums with a wealth of knowledge and as always a gentleman all the way.. We've met in passing many years ago..
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I have been in this obsession (euphemistically, a "hobby") for some 50 years and I can still hear the better part of the human range. The SR Purple Fuses are major -- repeat major -- audible improvements, both in my VTL 7.5 iii preamp and more latterly, my Sansui TU-X1 tuner (ca. 1979), often regarded as the finest tuner ever made. I am beyond audio "snake oil" and can hear -- or not hear -- the difference. I don't know the physics, but with my simple but experienced ears, I do know you have to tell which fuse's end is in and which points out, to hear which way is better. Neal |
Hi @nonoise Thank you, that is exactly (and succinctly!) what I was looking for. I will get an itch to give fusses a go at some point. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment, as in interconnects. As you might imagine I have a bunch due to the four amps and external electronic x-over. Regards, barts |
Hello @barts I've accumulated about 5 different brands of low cost, aftermarket fuses (I'd never pay what SR charges, but that's just me) and in my Marantz PM-15S2 and SA-15S2 SACD player there was a distinct difference with all of them, directionally and in comparison to the bog standard ones. With my Kinki EX-M1, I could hardly tell the difference so I kept in the standard fuse that came with it. The "sound" when in the wrong direction always rolled off the highs, muted ambience, and gave an out of phase shading to the sound making it harder to locate placement on the soundstage, or kind of a slight blur. If one didn't know, they'd be content with the sound and attribute it to some house sound (like warmth or richness). In the proper direction, everything snaps into place, the highs extend more and ambience is restored, along with better definition and detail. That's been my experience with every fuse I've tried with the Marantz gear, but not the Kinki. All the best, |
No, I haven't talked myself out of trying fuses, I just haven't talked myself into trying them. Partly because the four ARC amps I use to power my tri-amped system have seven fuses each. So, that's 28 fuses just in the amps. And then another 5 in the front end, for a total of 33. You can see where that would get pricey very quickly especially if your talkin' SR fuses. I appreciate the Acme fuse suggestion, so that would only be $700 to do them all rather than the >$4000 variety. Honestly I don't need to be reminded that this is fun. It's all about the music to me not the nth degree of what I can get out of my system. Regards, barts |
Quite the word salad! Complete with self contradiction. Apparently the comment about Ted isn't directed at me; I didn't bring him up. But coincidentally, we've been playing some Synergistic speaker cables in the shop for the last month. Our customer that brought them in exclaimed how they were so transformative. We ran a comparison, just for fun, between them and our shop cables, which we made up from 10ga oxygen free copper wire. Everyone in the shop was challenged to hear a difference. Our speakers though are 16 Ohms and speaker cables are far less critical when driving 16 Ohms as opposed to 8 or 4 Ohms.
Priceless! 🤣 Spoiler alert: Truth is what is going on.
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Ya puts the fuse on a perfectly level surface plate, then flick one end with the nail of your right index figure. If it flies off the surface plate and breaks on the floor, you've got a bad fuse. Better luck next time. If it stays on the surface plate, select the end of the fuse that is pointing away from you and stick it in first. I won't insult you by telling you where to stick it. |
@barts, how will you know if you don’t try? There are literally thousand’s of posts here on Agon alone that describe what they hear and how to do it. You don’t need an uber expensive fuse either. Try the Acme Special Coated Audio Labs Silver Cryo Fuses at $20 a pop. Your ears are no worse than some of our long in the tooth members here, including myself.☺ It sounds as if you’ve already talked yourself out of trying. What’s the expression? Nothing beats a failure but a try? Remember this is a hobby and it’s supposed to be fun!
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Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works. That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY. The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing. Whenever some educated someone actually does discover exactly how electricity does function, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it. Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein’s, then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can categorically prove your statements (theories), regarding fuses, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems. The following are for your edification/education/ https://www. then: http://hyperphysics. Happy listening, even to those that refuse to follow the scientific process of observation and experimentation, in their own systems, with their own ears, FOR FREE (ie: 30 day return policy, from some manufacturers). |
Fuser? George is wearing glasses again. It is bright down under. I know rectifier valves are not in the signal path so they can't affect the sound. OK!! You win.. You're smarter than me.. Now time to get ready for work. BTW oldhvymec sends his LOVE to all. He say's it is COLD and WET. The Fins are ready and so is the crew. He found a rabbit of all things, of course he's trying to figure how to get it home.. They EAT rabbits over there, A LOT.. I don't know how that is going work out if someone eats his rabbit. WWIV the heck with WWIII. :-) |
In the educational information about purple fuses, Ted does say something about its mind bending properties. I’ll let that one go through to the wicket keeper. |
@helmholtzsoul, My man! Lol!I understand you brother. As I know a bunch, and I do mean a bunch of Powerplant and Avionics Journeymen [master craftsmen (and women)] who work in the Aeronautical industry who were once called ’mechanics’. And these professionals fabricate everything on a rocket or a plane. Has anyone ever heard of Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce, Boeing? Where I sit, mechanics of nowadays are more akin to surgeons than the stereotype of what a mechanic looks like and may be to some.. And to my naysayers and especially to the monitors here on Agon who showed me that it’s ok to debate here in a respectful like manner. How do you like me now? Speaking of geoffkait, I think he's back? There's a @geoffkait20f6 and he sounds like geoffkait cause he just happened to mention NASA grade ceramic of DH Cones, speaking of Aeronautical Engineering? geoffkait is that you? |
An there's the rub. You THOUGHT, but not quite long enough. It's ok you are the very first one to ever say that. If you keep walking you will fall off the edge. I really thought this forum after all these years had finally turned the corner. It's stereo equipment. We (mechanics) put them in the dash of vehicles and install generators as big as a pickup truck to power 400 stereos as CES. I work the shows that supply the power for the equipment. DC? That is just one side of most heavy equipment.. Mechanics PLAY with stereo equipment. I can honestly say, most first year apprentices have enough skill to be a very good stereo repair person. He/she only has 3 more years to Journeyman (to be a mechanic), one more for Aviation or Marine and then 2 more for his masters. DC is HARD it stumps more people than you think... Most AC guys haven't got a clue with marine electric. AC/DC. Most mechanics I know were building amps as kids and cars as teens. BTW it does the Cha Cha 50 OR 60 times per second. You stand still when you dance? That must look weird. :-) The Conga line MOVES forward and then back, just like AC, always towards the source. AC on the outside, DC on the inside. That was a tough one to learn.. |
OP, in the SR fuse packing it clearly states to insert the fuse from the S to the R. Or left to right. The first thing to do before you take the hood off is power off and un plug the power cable from the back of the preamplifier/amplifier. Only insert one fuse at a time and the first fuse should be closest to the IEC inlet and the power train. Insert the fuse, plug in the power cord and power on, after some period of time you will be able to tell by listening if the fuse is in the right direction. Since these fuses are directional they will sound strident if they are in the wrong direction. If so, power off and un plug the power cord and simply reverse direction. All the above applies to both your preamplifier and amplifier and my experience with the SR Purple fuses. And please, don’t listen to the naysayers. It’s your rig and your money. Besides I’ve learned that the monitors here on Agon don’t mind and possibly prefer some spirited debate. Especially with the so called know it all testers. You know the ones, that only believes something if and only if it’s measured some sort of way. There is nothing wrong with using your ears. Everything is not new audio part bias. As if. These are the same electrical engineers who don’t believe in cryo treating metals works either even though the aeronautical (engineering) industry and others have been using these techniques since the 30’s, all the way down to the of tiniest parts molecular level to some of the most massive parts for rockets and jet engines. You will find that in some fuse positions there may be no effect at all. That is one of the reasons to test each SR fuse at each separate position one at at time using only one SR fuse at a time with the original fuses. Is it time consuming? Yes. But you will find that in certain fuse positions no new or SR fuses are needed. As the original fuse is fine where it is. But that comes from a lot of trial and listening. And the ones you find you don't need, send them back for a refund before the 30 days are up. Just so you know, there is a buy two get one free sale on SR fuses for the month of April/2022 and they can be mix/matched too.
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@jasonbourne52 You're clearly an intelligent guy who can sort out nonsense from fact. Join my club. @helmholtzsoul Juice is juice. No hope for you I'm afraid. I've called the guys in white coats. "It’s simple AC moves in a direction towards the source, period." I thought it reversed direction 50 times a second. Perhaps you should keep to the simpler DC? |
Never keep reversing the fuse, NEVER wipe the goo off the fuse, NEVER. Install the fuse and let it play if you think it's wrong, wait for at least a day. Then with fresh ears reverse the fuse. IF it sounds better leave if it doesn't put back the way it was. The fuse holder should have been inspected before you installed ANY fuse and replaced if there is damage. The main reason for a phono sections lack of change is because the very low current draw they have through the wires. I've rewired tone arms that took 500+ hours to break-in, the fuse took at least 1/2 of that time. Power amps, put it in, if you can't hear a difference, get your money back, it's as simple as that. The better the Power supply the less you'll notice it.. Big Macs and Pass amps, LOL who has better power supplied? Not many. Even Mcintosh finally got it through their thick heads, they SELL cables NOW and I'm a huge Mac fan. As I look across the very flat earth. It can't be round. |
May I suggest something that might help? Wipe both ends of the fuses before placing them all in the devices in the same way (i.e. writing left to right, or otherwise, your choice). Secure them in place, switch on the device and play the music. Thereafter I strongly suggest you let the fuses be. IF you feel the need to experiment give it at least two mins operating time before changing. (I was given designer fuses and installed them in my DAC & phono. They work very well, no audible differences though.)
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I'd say have your significant other (if you have one) or friend install the fuse(s) so that you can't see them, play your favorite tune, then have the same person (for continuity) reverse it, again without you seeing it, play the same tune and realize there is no difference and you wasted your money. |
I tried these purple and orange fuses and ended up sending those snake fuses back. Lord I love return privileges. So @nonoise when you sticking one of these fuses in your Technique Inergrated . |
@pdreher - I'm not sure what your experience is with My Pillow, but I like mine. I'd recommend that you try one, but will warn you that they are somewhat directional like most pillows are after an extended break-in period. Yellow fill is my reference. |
